Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future

[Delha]

Did someone already spot the new white Leyline?

Leyline of Sanctity
   2ww
Enchantment    Rare
If Leyline of Sanctity is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

You can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.

About a dozen posts up, yes.

I agree. I think also that the white one has extremely strong possibilities. The blue one is cute and certainly powerful in Stax, but maybe the whiteone is better for dredge stopping Oath, Tendrils, Crypt, and Trap all with one card is pretty strong, plus they can't use Duress effects to deal with you anti-hate cards.

[voltron00x]

Leyline of Sanctity is obviously better than Anticipation, our conversation on that card was before this one was spoiled.  Playing Sanctity plus Chalice will give you the most powerful Dredge deck assembled to date, able to race Storm and Oath, and resistant to Tormod's, Ravenous Trap, and even silly random side-effects like Gifts Ungiven.

[Killane]

Leyline of Sanctity is obviously better than Anticipation, our conversation on that card was before this one was spoiled.  Playing Sanctity plus Chalice will give you the most powerful Dredge deck assembled to date, able to race Storm and Oath, and resistant to Tormod's, Ravenous Trap, and even silly random side-effects like Gifts Ungiven.

I did like your Anticipation build's ability to run FoW though, and chalice on thier upkeep turn 1 before every playing is pretty absurd. Without a unified hate card for LLotV and Jailer, maybe being able to run FoW and o silly tricks with dred return is worth it?

No, no your right, Sanctity is just.plain.better. Damn, I really wanted Dredge to be the home of Anticipation since I love the concept of that card and don't own workshops, which is where I imagine it will end up now.

[voltron00x]

Dear Vintage players of the world, suck on this:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Woodfall Primus
2 Unmask
1 Nature's Claim
2 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder
4 Bazaar
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Petrified Field
1 Dakmor Salvage

Sideboard
3 Natures Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
4 City of Brass
4 Leyline of the Void

Love,
Elias

[Womba]

Dear Vintage players of the world, suck on this:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Woodfall Primus
2 Unmask
1 Nature's Claim
2 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder
4 Bazaar
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Petrified Field
1 Dakmor Salvage

Sideboard
3 Natures Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
4 City of Brass
4 Leyline of the Void

Love,
Elias

Unless your jake gans and then your list is -4 Serum Powder +4 Jace TMS

[nineisnoone]

Leyline of Sanctity is obviously better than Anticipation, our conversation on that card was before this one was spoiled.  Playing Sanctity plus Chalice will give you the most powerful Dredge deck assembled to date, able to race Storm and Oath, and resistant to Tormod's, Ravenous Trap, and even silly random side-effects like Gifts Ungiven.

I did like your Anticipation build's ability to run FoW though, and chalice on thier upkeep turn 1 before every playing is pretty absurd. Without a unified hate card for LLotV and Jailer, maybe being able to run FoW and o silly tricks with dred return is worth it?

No, no your right, Sanctity is just.plain.better. Damn, I really wanted Dredge to be the home of Anticipation since I love the concept of that card and don't own workshops, which is where I imagine it will end up now.

GAAAHhhh.... Yeah.  Sanctity probably is better.  It's possible maybe to accommodate both, but Sanctity is still in the "worth testing out" category, while Sanctity is "just run the damn thing."

[meadbert]

@Elias

How would you generically board with that list?
I assume City, Chains and Claims come in, but I could not figure out what to pull.

Presumably you pull Zealot, Primus and a Dread Return.
Also, Field probably comes out if you are not playing against Wasteland.
That still leaves 7 more cards to go and I cannot figure out what to take out from there.

[Neonico]

@Elias

How would you generically board with that list?
I assume City, Chains and Claims come in, but I could not figure out what to pull.

Presumably you pull Zealot, Primus and a Dread Return.
Also, Field probably comes out if you are not playing against Wasteland.
That still leaves 7 more cards to go and I cannot figure out what to take out from there.

Darkblast against any non black deck, or golgari thug.

[voltron00x]

It really depends on the opponent, what hate their archetype usually has, etc, but generally I would do this for game 2:

-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 DR
-2 FKZ, Woodfall
-2 Petrfied Field (if not against a Wasteland deck)

I would bring in 10 cards:

+4 City of Brass
+4 Chain of Vapor
+2 Nature's Claim

Then for G3 you have some flex cards in the main (1 Thug, 1 Ichorid, 2 Unmask) that you can manipulate based on the opponent and their type of hate, to bring back in Chalice of the Void and/or additional hate.  Also consider Sanctity to be a set of flex cards based on the opponent, for example Shop players may now use Needle + Relic, making Sanctity weak.  That's a case-by-case type of call.

The thing I don't like about this list is that I didn't include Serenity due to the use of Leylines + Chalice.

[Troy_Costisick]

The thing I don't like about this list is that I didn't include Serenity due to the use of Leylines + Chalice.

You could aslo use Back to Nature instead of Serenity if you don't want to wait and just want to kill enchantments.

[BruiZar]

Ok I've got my 3 Sun Titans. Now where's the asskicking list with sun titan shenanigans 

[Adan]

Ok I've got my 3 Sun Titans. Now where's the asskicking list with sun titan shenanigans 

I think I'd play Dredge like this post M11:

4 Serum Powder
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
3 Fatestitcher
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Ichorid
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Unmask
SB: 2 Serenity

[pot pie man]

I feel like Nature's claim has to be a main-deck card now, and pithing needle a primary board choice. If the leylines catch on in any capacity, people will gear more towards relic, and away from their own black leylines.

[Delha]

I feel like Nature's claim has to be a main-deck card now, and pithing needle a primary board choice. If the leylines catch on in any capacity, people will gear more towards relic, and away from their own black leylines.

I think I may be misunderstanding you, but what you're saying doesn't make sense to me. Leyline of Santity doesn't stop Leyline of the Void. I'd think that it pushes people towards LOTV rather than away, and that they'd just run Relic in addition.

Unless you're saying that more Leylines means more Claim, which in turn pushes people towards Relic (since it at least does something before being removed by Claim)?

[Neonico]

It pushes more people toward Yxilid Jailer IMHO.... Which will become the best hate against Ichorid considering Nature's claim and Leyline of sanctity.

[ArtOvWar]

Jailer is the reason why i run firestorm in my ichorid sideboard. Each weirdo here in my testgroup plays with 4 jailers, a crypt and a needle since they cant hardcast leyline fast enough. Firestorm also deals the last few damage to players if needed. Or in response a creature dies on his board for any reason you can instant trigger the bridges in your gy.

[SiegeX]

Ok I've got my 3 Sun Titans. Now where's the asskicking list with sun titan shenanigans  

/Flamesuit on

I've read a few times that FKZ doesn't always go lethal. If that's the case what about:

• Dread Return Sun Titan
• Grab Concordant Crossroads/Mass Hysteria
• Attack, Grab Betrothed of Fire

The con is that you can't go off until both cards are in the GY.  The pro is that you only need four (one to sac) 2/2's & Titan to be lethal.  I'm not a dredge player so this may be a moot point if six tokens with FKZ is just as easy to pull off as four + titan.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Takes up too many cards.  As suggested above, using it to get another Bazaar activation (or more with Fatestitcher shenanigans) is probably the way to go since you don't add cards that aren't already good on their own.

[sorcutt]

Ok I've got my 3 Sun Titans. Now where's the asskicking list with sun titan shenanigans 

They're back in mediocere Type II decks where they belong.  I'd run the Sharuum combo or Flamekin over Sun Titan any day.  And there's no way in hell I'd even run those.  Dredge is fragile enough to graveyard hate already without relying on a janky 3-4 card combo.  DR a Primus or Angel of Despair, blow something up and be satisfied.  Dreade Returning is a very overvalued strategy in Dredge.

[BruiZar]

Ok I've got my 3 Sun Titans. Now where's the asskicking list with sun titan shenanigans 

They're back in mediocere Type II decks where they belong.  I'd run the Sharuum combo or Flamekin over Sun Titan any day.  And there's no way in hell I'd even run those.  Dredge is fragile enough to graveyard hate already without relying on a janky 3-4 card combo.  DR a Primus or Angel of Despair, blow something up and be satisfied.  Dreade Returning is a very overvalued strategy in Dredge.

Exactly, and I agree. I have said this before the set was released but managed to get 3 Sun Titans since it was the prerelease card and I wanted to challenge people to show me a good list could be made with it.

[meadbert]

Here is a Sun Titan list:
4 City Of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Serum Powder
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Bridge From Below
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatestitcher
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Sun Titan
sideboard
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Darkblast
4 Chain Of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
2 Wispmare

[Killane]

Here is a Sun Titan list:
4 City Of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Serum Powder
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Bridge From Below
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatestitcher
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Sun Titan
sideboard
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Darkblast
4 Chain Of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
2 Wispmare

Care to offer any commentary on why this list is good? It doesn't look very good to me - it looks like a worse version of a Sharrum list.

[Womba]

Sun Titan to me always seemed like a sideboard card and not a main deck card. Pairing with Serenity against Shop decks seems like the only real exploitable interaction given the current metagame and card pull. Maybe Arcane Lab/Rule of Law against storm based decks, or even recurring crypt against the mirror, but other than that Sun Titan seems most useful against shop decks with Serenity from what I have brainstormed for now.

[Beralt]

Sun Titan just seems so ridiculous if it goes off, it gets FKZ and then gets something else during the attack phase such as an extra Baz or a Pithing Needle.  Meadbert, love the list, but I might go more of a toolbox route for the Titans ala Needle. Maybe it's the definition of a win more card in Dredge, but as always Dredge's problem is not game 1 where it overwhelms the opponent but games 2 & 3 where sideboarded graveyard hate can ruin your day - in essence Nature's Claim may be a far better card for Dredge then Sun Titan.

[Womba]

Sun Titan just seems so ridiculous if it goes off, it gets FKZ

This statement is false, FKZ cost 4..... Main decking a Sun Titan takes up spots as well as dredge return targets in trying to get cute instead of winning as you can just return a FKZ and win game one.

[Delha]

Sun Titan just seems so ridiculous if it goes off, it gets FKZ and then gets something else during the attack phase such as an extra Baz or a Pithing Needle.  Meadbert, love the list, but I might go more of a toolbox route for the Titans ala Needle. Maybe it's the definition of a win more card in Dredge, but as always Dredge's problem is not game 1 where it overwhelms the opponent but games 2 & 3 where sideboarded graveyard hate can ruin your day - in essence Nature's Claim may be a far better card for Dredge then Sun Titan.

How exactly does Sun Titan get FKZ? Did you mean indirectly, through Bazaar?

[meadbert]

Here is a Sun Titan list:
4 City Of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Serum Powder
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Bridge From Below
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatestitcher
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Sun Titan
sideboard
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Darkblast
4 Chain Of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
2 Wispmare

Care to offer any commentary on why this list is good? It doesn't look very good to me - it looks like a worse version of a Sharrum list.

The options for Sun Titan are as follows:
#1 Get a Bazaar, triggering Landfall and generating two more Dredges.
#2 Get a Rainbowland triggering Landfall.  Then bring one or all Fatestitchers into play generating two more Dredges.
#3 Get a Black Lotus or LED to bring out 2-3 Fatestitchers and generate 4-6 more Dredges.

I board out Titans so I will not address any uses post board.
The reason to run them preboard is that they are very good against the most common ways that Dredge loses.
First they are good against Combo since you have like an 80% turn 2 win percentage.
Second, they are good against Wasteland because with a tiny yard you can Dread Return Titan getting back a Bazaar and start going nuts again.

I have not tested this list (and probably more importantly Voltron's Leyline list) enough to say which is better.
I was not claiming this is the best Dredge deck.  It was is just an insanely fast list that runs Titan.

[voltron00x]

Like I said, its an alternate Sharuum.  Nothing wrong with that.  I love me some Fatestitcher.

[Beralt]

Well after not ever paying the hardcast cost of FKZ, I totally missed on it's cost.  Yes FKZ does cost 4 and is not recursable by Sun Titan.  Please disregard my comments on how Sun Titan can get the FKZ, but my analysis of what Dredge wants to do in games 1 vs games 2/3 is still valid (imho). I am not sure how Sun Titan helps you fight the hate in games 2 & 3, since often times in 2/3 you board out your Dread Returns.

[Razvan]

Well after not ever paying the hardcast cost of FKZ, I totally missed on it's cost.  Yes FKZ does cost 4 and is not recursable by Sun Titan.  Please disregard my comments on how Sun Titan can get the FKZ, but my analysis of what Dredge wants to do in games 1 vs games 2/3 is still valid (imho). I am not sure how Sun Titan helps you fight the hate in games 2 & 3, since often times in 2/3 you board out your Dread Returns.

meadbert already said that it doesn't help you in games 2 and 3.

One of the interesting things about Shaarum/Titan lists is the massive amount of free space you get to bring in most of your board for games 2/3. For Shaarum alone, you side in 3 of him, 2 Altar/Portal, 2 Black Lotus/LED, 0-3 Dread Return, and some number of Fatestichers. This allows you to bring in most of your board (9 cards at least, maybe up to 12/13), not removing any dredgers/Ichorids. That makes it very easy to board, and you can even have a FKZ in the sideboard that you can bring in for a different sort of kill.

I still like Shaarum over Titan, but that's just me.