[Worldwake - New Card Discussion] Jace, The Mindsculptor

[Neonico]

ANd it's impossible to consider building something working the same way and allowing you to protect yourself while you tap out turn 3 ?
Of course, if you just say : look at the blue decks played now, none can support that card, you won't find this Jace a home, but i'm pretty sure that this card is more than playable, and could be the base of a really good deck.

[T1scrub]

mighty 1-off

mybe base for a midrange 2/3drain-tarmocontroldeck

[Troy_Costisick]

He's got the right abilities for Vintage, but his effect on the gamestate isn't immediate enough.  He doesn't untap your mana like Tez or tutor something directly into play like Tez.  He'll be good if the format gets slower and his abilities have more time to rack up tempo and card advantage.  Maybe if we were in a heavier Shop meta he'd be pretty good.

[meadbert]

He doesn't untap your mana like Tez or tutor something directly into play like Tez. 

He can bouce a Mox/Mana Crypt so for those guys he is like Tez.  He is  worse for Mana Vault and Sol Ring.

[zeus-online]

He doesn't untap your mana like Tez or tutor something directly into play like Tez. 

He can bouce a Mox/Mana Crypt so for those guys he is like Tez.  He is  worse for Mana Vault and Sol Ring.

How? The ability only targets creatures...its an unsummon.

He looks awesome, not sure if he's gonna be good enough for vintage....I think he might be strong enough as a singleton. Slow draw-engine...But a damn good one.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Sorry to be the heavy on this one kids, but the answer is a resounding No.

Vegeta spells it out pretty well.

Sylvan library is a decent comparable for proving this cards hopelessness, but you could also look instead to what is currently being played to gain advantage.  It's stuff like Dark Confidant, Mystic Remora and Sensei's Top tricks.  Skeletal Scrying, which is a fine card and pretty powerful (and only slightly off color) is too slow, situational and risky for the current environment.  That card makes Jace look like a three-legged anvil.

Tezzeret, which wins the game, or can get any artifact that costs >5 and put it directly into play, is barely in the current lists as a one-off.  Think hard about that for a second.  Ok.  So, Eastman's right.  This will probably fit it into decks making them slightly worse, but still good enough to T8 and have people cook up amazing rationales for how it "won them so many games".  It's sure to be a house in other formats, so it won't hurt to grab one or two and be casual-faux-competitive with it.  But please don't think this is going to have any effect on real Vintage.

[majikal]

Sorry to be the heavy on this one kids, but the answer is a resounding No.

Vegeta spells it out pretty well.

Sylvan library is a decent comparable for proving this cards hopelessness, but you could also look instead to what is currently being played to gain advantage.  It's stuff like Dark Confidant, Mystic Remora and Sensei's Top tricks.  Skeletal Scrying, which is a fine card and pretty powerful (and only slightly off color) is too slow, situational and risky for the current environment.  That card makes Jace look like a three-legged anvil.

Tezzeret, which wins the game, or can get any artifact that costs >5 and put it directly into play, is barely in the current lists as a one-off.  Think hard about that for a second.  Ok.  So, Eastman's right.  This will probably fit it into decks making them slightly worse, but still good enough to T8 and have people cook up amazing rationales for how it "won them so many games".  It's sure to be a house in other formats, so it won't hurt to grab one or two and be casual-faux-competitive with it.  But please don't think this is going to have any effect on real Vintage.

Bumping this thread because the set is released now. I've been playing Jace as a 1-of in my Tezz deck now since the Prerelease. This card is actually pretty nutty. It's not so much that the raw power is overwhelming in any way, but the sheer utility that it provides is amazing. I don't know how many times I've won because I bounced someone's Tinkerbot or Cold-Eyed Selkie and then Brainstormed a couple of times.

He also sets up your Dark Confidants to not kill you if you can't find Top. He hides relevant cards from your hand on the top of your library that you don't want to have Thoughtseized away or puts back that Sphinx so you can cast Tinker.

Just... everything about this card is great.

[Neonico]

Jace, whatever his form is (Sculptor or Beleren) is a HUGE TOOL to win the control mirrors. When i was playing tezz, i allways maindecked one copy (was a beleren untill the sculptor was spoiled) and sided in one other in this matchup. The sculptor version is perhaps even better as you'll never have to make your opponent draw a card and it's a good synergy with dark confidant.

As far as my testings go, it's a really nice inclusion in Tezz decks, in any matchup but Fish and Stax.

And one card i really love to play with him is Vendilion Clique. It's even better now that you have to face lodestone golem. In testings against both RB stax and MUD, both were really great.

[Phele]

I like Jace so far in combo Oath. It serves as another draw and care about Pridemage/Meddling/Robot tool, but even better it shuffles back Iona and buddys in hand AND functions as an alternative win condition. Exactly what this deck was looking for.

[TheShop]

I can't believe that anyone would consider this card instead of FoF:

FoF gets played at end of turn
FoF normally draws 3 cards(unless you hit will or ancestral...in which case it is even more retarded)
FoF fills the yard for Regrowth effects
FoF does not cost UU

-or-
Gifts is a tutor that immediately wins the game with enough mana behind it
Gifts can go get 4 counterspells(gush era play finding REB, Pyro, FoW, and MisD)
Gifts can be played at end of turn also


I don't have a problem tapping down at end of turn to rip 3 cards off the top or set up winning the game.  In response to the Thirst restriction, I really like the 4 mana busted draw.  However, you won't catch me tapping down to cast unsummon on my turn, or brainstorm.

I would take Skeletal scrying over this trash just to be able to draw at end of turn.

I would completely revamp a control deck to maindeck Dark Ritual and Necropotence/Scrying over this card.  And I guarantee that a deck ripping 3 cards off the top at end of opponents turn will have more contol and busted plays than a deck wasting a turn.  This is
so bad that it makes this look good:

3 Personal Tutor
1 Ponder

at least I can pull my watered down brainstorm on turn two(and still be able to seach for tinker or yawgwill).

I forsee the time when people will say what they said about running Courier's Capsule...."I am only running real vintage cards next time"

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I can't believe that anyone would consider this card instead of FoF:

FoF gets played at end of turn
FoF normally draws 3 cards(unless you hit will or ancestral...in which case it is even more retarded)
FoF fills the yard for Regrowth effects
FoF does not cost UU

-or-
Gifts is a tutor that immediately wins the game with enough mana behind it
Gifts can go get 4 counterspells(gush era play finding REB, Pyro, FoW, and MisD)
Gifts can be played at end of turn also


I don't have a problem tapping down at end of turn to rip 3 cards off the top or set up winning the game.  In response to the Thirst restriction, I really like the 4 mana busted draw.  However, you won't catch me tapping down to cast unsummon on my turn, or brainstorm.

I would take Skeletal scrying over this trash just to be able to draw at end of turn.

I would completely revamp a control deck to maindeck Dark Ritual and Necropotence/Scrying over this card.  And I guarantee that a deck ripping 3 cards off the top at end of opponents turn will have more contol and busted plays than a deck wasting a turn.  This is
so bad that it makes this look good:

3 Personal Tutor
1 Ponder

at least I can pull my watered down brainstorm on turn two(and still be able to seach for tinker or yawgwill).

I forsee the time when people will say what they said about running Courier's Capsule...."I am only running real vintage cards next time"

Hey now that isn't fair, Courier's Capsule was maybe a fringe Control Slaver playable. Jace isn't even at least that. I mean I know Brainstorm is restricted but seriously guys it isn't worth paying 4 mana for at sorcery speed lol. In three turns this is a bad Concentrate in card advantage that can be killed by any Fish deck, any Aggro deck, any hate deck, and any Dark Confidant control or combo deck before he even gets to be a bad Concentrate. Oh wait sorry when this guy becomes legal so does the rest of Worldwake so scratch off any Shop deck (paying 4 mana on top of 12 spheres (+X Sculpting Steels) for this is just terrible and Lodestone smashes face). Yeah and Dredge is too fast to even think about caring about Jace, so is pretty much any combo deck including Oath. So what deck exactly does that still leave?

Glen Elendra Archmage or Tezzeret will probably win you more games than Jace if you play them instead. I'd love to see the numbers on what exactly Jace is doing when he hits play that is so amazing compared to having other cards in his place. Anyone playtesting him feel free to post results other than "wow I bounced some creatures and did some Brainstorms just like the card told me I could do".

[Son of Serra]

This card is definitely unique. It is an unrestricted blue draw engine with additional utility to disrupt the opponent's board by bouncing key creatures (lodestone golem, dark confidant, goblin welder, qasali pridemage). Its casting cost is expensive for Vintage and it will not win the game immediately late game. If it is left alone, it will be hard not to find a way to win within a few turns because of the tremendous number of cards it allows you to see. It is easier for an opponent to disrupt than an enchantment or even a creature because your opponent can attack it directly with a creature in addition to more direct removal like chain of vapor. Its synergies with other cards are not immediately identifiable because it does not directly replace any one card in a given archtype. It is unique and will take time to properly evaluate but could be a solid midgame unrestricted blue utility/draw spell.

Question: Would you test this card if nobody talked about it and it cost $4 for a playset?

I came into a playset pretty easily this past week and have been having fun playing it as a four-of in a tezzeret deck with dark confidants and a suite of tutors including gifts ungiven and imperial seal. The verdict is still out on whether it is good enough to keep, but I have definitely found that playing it is different than I thought.

[Ulthrion]

I am currently testing it in my The Deck, replacing Timetwister (as I didn't really liked that card as much as I thought I would). It is doing quite decent at the moment.

The problems with Jace the new are that he is expensive, and after that, he's quite slow, and vulnerable to creatures. In a sense, he is like crucible of worlds, but even slower and with a better effect.
In the context of The Deck, however, these problems are somewhat lessened. The Deck has the tools to come back from not having mana drain mana up for a turn. In addition, you can play it after balance, pernicious deed (and is affected by neither) against creatures, and work from there. Also, The Deck takes arguably the most turns to win, so the fact that he's slow is immediately compensated by the fact that you get so many uses out of him if he sticks.

What you do get:
- Card Advantage. Repeatable brainstorms are still great, even if it is sorcery speed.
- Maindeck bounce. I don't have maindeck bounce in my version of The Deck, and Jace added it for the moment.
- Win Condition. Most games go very long. After a crucible-strip lock, your opponent can still collect a blowout hand to try and win. They can't when you also have Jace selecting their spells. In addition, building up his loyalty allow you an additional win condition. This is a great way to get 4+ win conditions in your deck when facing Sadistic Sacrement.

That said, the mana cost is quite prohibitive, and he can be a little dead early on. You don't always have a force of will to pitch him to. Also, I personally like him too much to pitch him all that often, which is something I should change. But this has nothing to do with the card itself. All in all, I like him. He's not the new ancestral recall in terms of power, or even gifts, but he does add a nice combination of raw power with great utility.

[Suicideking]

Update: This card is awesome in vintage.  It does great things when it hits the board. 

[BruiZar]

I think vintage players are too focused on the principle that a 4 mana card should win right now. What if a fact or fiction or gifts doesn't win you the game? Atleast, with Jace you have a recurring source of card advantage and utility which gives your deck inevitability. If you're up against dredge then ofcourse you're going to pitch it to fow, but in control mirrors or against oath this seems good.

[Tiki Walker]

After a crucible-strip lock, your opponent can still collect a blowout hand to try and win. They can't when you also have Jace selecting their spells.

If the first phase of The Deck strategy which is permanent (including mana) control is achieved, then it is much better to move to the next phase which is hand control than toying around with the opponent's draws. Instead tutor up for hand destruction, play out a shaman to control artifact mana, tutor for more bombs and either regrow bombs or hand destruction to squeeze out more card disadvantage from the opponent under mana lock.

  

[zeus-online]

Haven't tried him in T1....But after playing/watching a few games with chapin's T2 deck....I think he's atleast worth testing. I'm thinking 2-off.

[CowWithHat]

Sorry to be the heavy on this one kids, but the answer is a resounding No.

Vegeta spells it out pretty well.

Sylvan library is a decent comparable for proving this cards hopelessness, but you could also look instead to what is currently being played to gain advantage.  It's stuff like Dark Confidant, Mystic Remora and Sensei's Top tricks.  Skeletal Scrying, which is a fine card and pretty powerful (and only slightly off color) is too slow, situational and risky for the current environment.  That card makes Jace look like a three-legged anvil.

Tezzeret, which wins the game, or can get any artifact that costs >5 and put it directly into play, is barely in the current lists as a one-off.  Think hard about that for a second.  Ok.  So, Eastman's right.  This will probably fit it into decks making them slightly worse, but still good enough to T8 and have people cook up amazing rationales for how it "won them so many games".  It's sure to be a house in other formats, so it won't hurt to grab one or two and be casual-faux-competitive with it.  But please don't think this is going to have any effect on real Vintage.

I am not sold 100% on Jace's playability but I think this post underestimates his utility.  Comparing Jace to sylvan library and skeltal scrying is like comparing toast to a shoe.  They do completely different things.  The tezzeret analogy is better but I think you play down the power of Jace too much in that context.  Tezzeret wins the game if he resolves doesn't get attacked to death, doesn't get his vault killed, doesn't see a null rod, doesn't face down a mindcensor, and genreally lives unmolested.  In most cases where Jace resolves and lives until another main phase he is going to show you 6 new cards and put you up at least two cards on your opponent.  That is quite close to winning the game.  He has a similar utility to Tez in that he can have immediate presence, he provides a win condition that still does other things, and he can be pitched to force when he is not an ideal play.  Externally he can also bounce friendly and opposing confidants which can make for interesting in play interactions.

The fact that Tez is "barely" playable means nothing, he is playable and therefore cards of comparable power level may also be playable.

I believe in the Fish matchup Jace is a considerably better card then Tez.  He is less expensive against mana denial, he can psuedo-deal with Tarmogoyf, and he is far from useless when staring at a null rod.  I would test him in place of Tez to see how the deck fared but I don't have the cards for Tez and I'm lazy.  If the statements you made were not conjecture based on assumption I'll yield to your superior testing results but I would say this card is far from a resounding NO! and belongs more in the Cautious maybe? camp.

[evouga]

In most cases where Jace resolves and lives until another main phase he is going to show you 6 new cards and put you up at least two cards on your opponent.

By my count he only shows you 4.

By comparison, Fact or Fiction shows you 5 cards. When it doesn't give you +2 card advantage, the difference is made up for in card quality. You get these cards immediately, not spread out over two turns. It doesn't leave chaff on the top of your library, and requires less colored mana to play, all at instant speed.

[swawagon]

Jace doesn't cost as little to cast (or be played as an instant) as Brainstorm.
Jace doesn't cost as little to cast (or be played as an instant) as Unsummon.
Jace doesn't can only Scry 1 or Fateseal 1 to gain Loyalty.
Jace doesn't 'win' as affectively as many things.

[+2]: Look at the top card of target player's library. You may put that card at the bottom of his or her library.
[-0]: Draw 3 cards, then put 2 cards from your hand on the top of your library in any order.
[-1]: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
[-12]: Exile all cards from target player's library. That player then shuffles their hand into their library.

But Jace Mindsculpter can do ALL these things.
And Jace Mindsculpter can do them EACH TURN.

He gives a deck very powerful choices after the first 4cc investment.

[zeus-online]

In most cases where Jace resolves and lives until another main phase he is going to show you 6 new cards and put you up at least two cards on your opponent.

By my count he only shows you 4.

By comparison, Fact or Fiction shows you 5 cards. When it doesn't give you +2 card advantage, the difference is made up for in card quality. You get these cards immediately, not spread out over two turns. It doesn't leave chaff on the top of your library, and requires less colored mana to play, all at instant speed.

6 is correct if you count atleast 1 shuffle effect...You cast him, brainstorm See 3 cards. Drawstep you draw one of those you've already seen (still 3) then you shuffle and see 3 new ones....That makes it 6.

You don't necessarily have to cut fact for jace? you could run jace in addition...The question is if he's better then other non-restricted draw-engines like Confidant, scrying, intuition etc. He's also got that unsummon ability which means that he's a pseudo "answer" to creatures aswell. Fateseal probably won't happen too much...But he can still win you the game after you've gone infinite with vault/key (decking the opponent) - so he's also a back-up win-condition. (You can just use the ultimate twice to complete remove his library)

All in all he could be playable. And rumors are that he's actually pretty good. I think he could be alot stronger then Tezzeret.

[Smmenen]

Sorry to be the heavy on this one kids, but the answer is a resounding No.

Vegeta spells it out pretty well.

And yet, Jace has proven to be quite playable in Vintage.   

[voltron00x]

Sorry to be the heavy on this one kids, but the answer is a resounding No.

Vegeta spells it out pretty well.

And yet, Jace has proven to be quite playable in Vintage.   

I think people get too hung-up on this idea that spells over a certain cost have to win the game immediately or they're not viable in the format, and further are too limited in their understanding of what a card that "wins the game" really means.  Obviously Vintage has stringent requirements for a card to be playable, but there's still a limit to how much you can theorize about a card.  Testing with Jace in existing archetypes showed that it was very good (for example, in testing with Tezz v Oath with both decks packing a Jace, we found that any time a player resolved Jace, that player won), while Beaver's Drain Tendrils from Blue Bell is practically a new take on the deck, using Jace as a verstaile draw engine.  I think this card's going to be a part of the format for a long time.

[yukizora]

Sorry to be the heavy on this one kids, but the answer is a resounding No.

Vegeta spells it out pretty well.

And yet, Jace has proven to be quite playable in Vintage.  

I think people get too hung-up on this idea that spells over a certain cost have to win the game immediately or they're not viable in the format, and further are too limited in their understanding of what a card that "wins the game" really means.  Obviously Vintage has stringent requirements for a card to be playable, but there's still a limit to how much you can theorize about a card.  Testing with Jace in existing archetypes showed that it was very good (for example, in testing with Tezz v Oath with both decks packing a Jace, we found that any time a player resolved Jace, that player won), while Beaver's Drain Tendrils from Blue Bell is practically a new take on the deck, using Jace as a verstaile draw engine.  I think this card's going to be a part of the format for a long time.

Well, I mean, just compare Fact or Fiction to Jace. After 2 brainstorms jace has been way better than any FoF, and it's just like your fifth Dark Confidant in Tezz. But still, noone is saying that FoF is unplayable right?
I currently replaced one of the two tops by a Jace, and I'm quite happy with it.

[Kiriyuu]

Sorry to be the heavy on this one kids, but the answer is a resounding No.

Vegeta spells it out pretty well.

And yet, Jace has proven to be quite playable in Vintage.   

Was him not being in your set review an oversight, or due to some super secret meandeck tech we're not allowed to know about yet?

[Grand Inquisitor]

And yet, Jace has proven to be quite playable in Vintage.

I think it's much too early to make that claim.  Everything is played a month or so after it comes out, regardless of whether it's playable or not.

It sounds like others have had good luck in Oath and TPS, so I'm only speaking as a Tez pilot: it was very underwhelming.  It may be versatile enough to play anyway, or future synergies may yet be discovered.  As for now, in my lists, it's still in the phase where it hasn't shown strong enough correlation to winning where it's earned a spot.

[i_set_fire]

And yet, Jace has proven to be quite playable in Vintage.

I think it's much to early to make that claim.  Everything is played a month or so after it comes out, regardless of whether it's playable or not.

It sounds like others have had good luck in Oath and TPS, so I'm only speaking as a Tez pilot: it was very underwhelming.  It may be versatile enough to play anyway, or future synergies may yet be discovered.  As for now, in my lists, it's still in the phase where it hasn't shown strong enough correlation to winning where it's earned a spot.

what do you remove in TPS to make space for jace 2?

[TheShop]

Sorry to be the heavy on this one kids, but the answer is a resounding No.

Vegeta spells it out pretty well.

And yet, Jace has proven to be quite playable in Vintage.   

This is a gimmick/phase we will go through just like courier's capsule, cryptic command, etc...  not a permanent format fixture unless something goes drastically awry.  I don't understand how this is better than Sift, Ambitions Cost.....Concentrate.  I think any one of these would give you an edge in the control mirror match if resolved.  And many of these do not have a double color cost.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Merchant Scroll -> Ancestral is three cards for 1UU.  We can consider this the long-time effective mana cost of Ancestral Recall.  That was very playable and even somewhat broken.  Merchant Scroll got restricted because it was more flexible than "mere" card drawing, but the first Scroll usually found Ancestral.  Concentrate was never "good" simply because Merchant Scroll did the same thing and more for one colorless mana less.

Jace is a different animal altogether.  He both answers your opponent's tinker creatures (and Oath creatures) and generates the card advantage needed to make sure your combo kill is the one that resolves first.

Your comparison draws the same (false) parallels as Bob vs Night's Whisper.

[honestabe]

I feel like if Time Vault ever got re-errated/banned, then this guy might have a chance, but why not play Tezz to untap==>Win?

I don't think he's unplayable, I just think there's a better option.