The MUD Thread

[Smmenen]

High Market is the answer to Oath. 

[voltron00x]

Golem is fine against Oath, you just have to know when to play it and when to hold it.  It's obviously not a good idea to just run it out there turn 1.

There are plenty of options out there for those that are concerned with Oath.  I've been happy with 4x Duplicant 3x Hub post-SB, however this seems like a spicy one no one has mentioned yet.  I believe the casting cost is right and it handles any number of Orchards:


http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=27349

[madmanmike25]

Those are some good finds for anti-Oath tech.

High Market has the nice bonus of costing 'zero', being uncounterable, and producing mana.  The downside I see is that you have to match them Market for Orchard because you can only use the card once a turn.

Blasting Station has an acceptable cc and has the potential to answer two orchard tokens (sack one, ping other) which is nice. 

The card I still hope to see the most against Oath is Smokestack and I still think that because Spawning Pit can create permanents in response to Smoke, can get rid of ALL Orchard tokens, can create creatures (aka possible win cons) after Smoke gets rid of Oath, and has the low 2cc make it slightly superior in my opinion.

Regarding Golem vs. Oath; Resolving a Golem and CotV@0 seems like a strong turn 1 play to me.

[voltron00x]

Those are some good finds for anti-Oath tech.

High Market has the nice bonus of costing 'zero', being uncounterable, and producing mana.  The downside I see is that you have to match them Market for Orchard because you can only use the card once a turn.

Blasting Station has an acceptable cc and has the potential to answer two orchard tokens (sack one, ping other) which is nice. 

The card I still hope to see the most against Oath is Smokestack and I still think that because Spawning Pit can create permanents in response to Smoke, can get rid of ALL Orchard tokens, can create creatures (aka possible win cons) after Smoke gets rid of Oath, and has the low 2cc make it slightly superior in my opinion.

Regarding Golem vs. Oath; Resolving a Golem and CotV@0 seems like a strong turn 1 play to me.

Spawning Pit is still probably the best option, especially if you have an outlet for the creatures (such as Smokestack).  High Market and Blasting Station seem good as alternates if you're trying to dodge Pithing Needle (which is what I always play to nail stuff like this, as well as Gargadon and Goblin Bombardment).

Just one thing re: Blasting Station - one Station handles an infinite number of Orchards.  It untaps every time they use Orchard, so you never need to ping the tokens.  It's basically a colorless Goblin Bombardment.

[credmond]

Blasting station offhand seems better than Spawning Pit since it doesn't interfere with the chalice at  1 and 2 plan (which is key to fighting oaths key cards and oaths key hate cards), it doesn't require mana to use so it can be online off a single shop, and it can handle any number of orchards.

[meadbert]

Spawning Pit does not interfere with Chalice@2.  Chalice@2 does interfere with Spawning Pit, but so long as Chalice sticks you should be fine unless that do something weird like play Oath into Chalice and then Stifle the trigger which is unlikely given that Oath decks do not run Stifle right now.

Blasting station does seem pretty good though.

[Smmenen]

The reason I prefer High Market is that it is uncounterable.  It's true that Needle Stops it, I'd prefer uncounterability to a card that is stopped by Needle. 

[TheBrassMan]

Phyrexian Tower is uncounterable AND immune to Pithing Needle

[Shock Wave]

Phyrexian Tower is uncounterable AND immune to Pithing Needle

Yeah, the only downside to Tower is that it is legendary, so if your opponent plays a second Orchard, you are hosed.

[TheBrassMan]

Phyrexian Tower is uncounterable AND immune to Pithing Needle

Yeah, the only downside to Tower is that it is legendary, so if your opponent plays a second Orchard, you are hosed.

In that case it would still be better to run 1 Tower, 1 High Market than 2 High Market... though once there's multiple Orchards involved you'd rather have Spawning Pits anyway.  Note that the sac a creature plan only works if you can actually win without creatures, in most MUD decks I believe that leaves Smokestack until Oath is dead as your only option, which may not be appealing to some players.  In addition, neither answer addresses the Show and Tell plan game two, which is what I run myself in Oath, and personally feel is correct.

[voltron00x]

Phyrexian Tower is uncounterable AND immune to Pithing Needle

Yeah, the only downside to Tower is that it is legendary, so if your opponent plays a second Orchard, you are hosed.

In that case it would still be better to run 1 Tower, 1 High Market than 2 High Market... though once there's multiple Orchards involved you'd rather have Spawning Pits anyway.  Note that the sac a creature plan only works if you can actually win without creatures, in most MUD decks I believe that leaves Smokestack until Oath is dead as your only option, which may not be appealing to some players.  In addition, neither answer addresses the Show and Tell plan game two, which is what I run myself in Oath, and personally feel is correct.

That's why I like the Eon Hub + Duplicant plan, personally.  Still, that Terastodon is seriously problematic.

[Neonico]

Phyrexian Tower is uncounterable AND immune to Pithing Needle

Yeah, the only downside to Tower is that it is legendary, so if your opponent plays a second Orchard, you are hosed.

In that case it would still be better to run 1 Tower, 1 High Market than 2 High Market... though once there's multiple Orchards involved you'd rather have Spawning Pits anyway.  Note that the sac a creature plan only works if you can actually win without creatures, in most MUD decks I believe that leaves Smokestack until Oath is dead as your only option, which may not be appealing to some players.  In addition, neither answer addresses the Show and Tell plan game two, which is what I run myself in Oath, and personally feel is correct.

Factories....
And show and tell plan leaves you opened to a duppliquant answer....

[Meddling Mike]

The problem with High Market and Phyrexian Tower is that it really only answers one Forbidden Orchard, if they have two a spawning pit/eon hub is significantly more effective. So I guess the question is what are the chances they can get 2 Orchards to stick? You have wastelands, strip mine and maybe crucible and there is also the possibility that you could draw additional high markets. We should also keep in mind that although these cards cost no mana, they are costing us our land drop. This also has to be weighted against the difficulty casting a Spawning Pit/Eon Hub(It's not a stretch for an Eon Hub to cost 7+ mana as it gets hit by thorn and sphere) and the likelihood that your opponent will have the ability to counter these spells.

[madmanmike25]

Due to the format change of the boards and relevence of MUD in the meta I deem it appropriate to update this thread.

I have adapted my list a bit for an Oath filled meta.  Here is the list, share your thoughts on the subject by all means.

4 Chalice
4 Sphere
4 Thorn
4 Tangle
3 Crucible
1 Trini
4 Smoke

4 Lodestones
3 Trikes
2 Karn

4 Shops
4 Wastes
4 Tombs
4 Ports
1 Tolarian
1 Strip
9 SoLoMoxenCryptVault

I am torn between Trikes and Expedition Maps in that slot.  The dilemma is that I'm seeing less Confidants to ping and more Oath, in which Trike can only serve as very expensive (and limited) token removal.  Yet sometimes with the Maps it feels like I'm short on finishers. 

I still have a lot of respect for Rishadan Port.  They have been very useful during my opponents upkeeps alongside sphere effects to delay sorcery speed spells and make sure more of my threats can resolve.

What maindeck would you run if you expected Oath in large numbers?

[Smmenen]

In my article on SCG today, I identified six controversies with MUD that MUD pilots have not resolved:

1) Do you run Trinisphere?

2) Do you include Null Rods?

3) Do you run Metalworker?

4) Do you run Smokestack?

5) Do you run Black Lotus/Mana Vault?

6) Do you run Serum Powder

I think the answers to these questions define the major variants of this archetype. 

[Will]

I am torn between Trikes and Expedition Maps in that slot.  The dilemma is that I'm seeing less Confidants to ping and more Oath, in which Trike can only serve as very expensive (and limited) token removal.  Yet sometimes with the Maps it feels like I'm short on finishers. 

I still have a lot of respect for Rishadan Port.  They have been very useful during my opponents upkeeps alongside sphere effects to delay sorcery speed spells and make sure more of my threats can resolve.

What maindeck would you run if you expected Oath in large numbers?

I personally think that Serum Powders are a better option than both Expedition Maps and Triskelion in the main.  While it doesn't do what either does but if you have extra slots then Powder can be fantastic at filling the gap and improving the general strength of your draws and improve your mulligans as well. 

Rishadan Ports are my MVP of MUD in all the games I've played.  I can not preach my love for the card enough but I really do like it a lot.  My favorite play in the deck definitely is Mox Port Chalice on the play with Port going to work in their EOT and then untap Ancient Tomb Lodestone Golem.  Port definitely adds flexibility as well as improving Tangle Wire at times. 

If you expect a lot of Oath and want Maindeck answers then some possibilities that could work are a singleton land such as High Market or Phyrexian Tower in conjunction with Expedition Map or something simpler such as Powder Keg all in conjunction with Chalice of the Void.  Sideboard answers all work as well since you do of course play as many if not more games with your sideboard than without it.  That being said Maze of Ith is good as well as the lands I already mentioned.  I won't keep going on because I'm sort of reposting ideas Smemmen suggested in his article but you get the general idea. 

[M.Solymossy]

I personally think that Serum Powders are a better option than both Expedition Maps and Triskelion in the main.  While it doesn't do what either does but if you have extra slots then Powder can be fantastic at filling the gap and improving the general strength of your draws and improve your mulligans as well. 

I hate Serum Powder.  Count the amount of times you Mulligan hands that would be perfectly playable if you had a real card other than Serum Powder.   



Play Null Rod.  Don't bother with Trikes and Shit.  You can stall out oath long enough to beat them to death, and their #1 way to play oath through your 8 billion spheres is to play their artifact accelarants.

[Prospero]

I personally think that Serum Powders are a better option than both Expedition Maps and Triskelion in the main.  While it doesn't do what either does but if you have extra slots then Powder can be fantastic at filling the gap and improving the general strength of your draws and improve your mulligans as well. 

I hate Serum Powder.  Count the amount of times you Mulligan hands that would be perfectly playable if you had a real card other than Serum Powder.   



Play Null Rod.  Don't bother with Trikes and Shit.  You can stall out oath long enough to beat them to death, and their #1 way to play oath through your 8 billion spheres is to play their artifact accelarants.

In your experience playing Serum Powder in Workshops, what have been your major complaints?  What did the list you tested look like? 

[madmanmike25]

1) Do you run Trinisphere?

Yes, you do.  A shop deck that does not run this card is not optimal.  Turn 1 Trini is as broken a play as you will ever get playing MUD.  After that it becomes Arcane Laboratory, and that's still good enough in my opinion.  The finesse part comes in knowing when to side it out.

2) Do you include Null Rods?

That depends on several things; Do you run Metalworker, do you run Karn, and do you run Trikes.  While you can tailor a MUD build to suit Rod, I find it to be too symmetrical for my taste.  If your meta is Fish and Ichorid, the answer is no.

3) Do you run Metalworker?

Not if you play with Null Rods or play in a Null Rod meta.  If you want to combo out with Staff, then you need 4 Metalworkers.  I will share that from my experience when I play without Metalworkers I find myself having to run more mana sources.

4) Do you run Smokestack?

Only if you want to run the coup de grace for a deck that locks out opponents.  I'm biased because this card wins so many games for me, is that bad?  If you are running the Worker/Staff combo you may not need Smoke though.  Also note that Smokestack with even 1 counter is problematic for Key/Vault.

5) Do you run Black Lotus/Mana Vault?

Only if you want to have unfair amounts of mana in your deck.  I will concede that these cards are *best* in decks that try to get an early Metalworker in play.  Still good to have with all the Spheres around to make sure you achieve enough mana to cast important spells.

6) Do you run Serum Powder

No, I personally do not.  I prefer to make my deck consistent enough on its own where it doesn't draw this (imo) horrible topdeck.

Play Null Rod.  Don't bother with Trikes and Shit.  You can stall out oath long enough to beat them to death, and their #1 way to play oath through your 8 billion spheres is to play their artifact accelarants.

Not sure about this.  I found that I am most likely to lose when the Oath player keeps hitting their land drops.  Karn creates quite a fast clock in addition to taking out those artifact accelerants.  Also I don't think I really want to play ANTI-OATH MUD, but rather a MUD deck that is tweaked to have a not-so-bad matchup vs. Oath while still being competitive against Fish and Ichorid etc..  Null Rod does nothing in those matchups.  Of course, some decks already run Rod main so it works for them.

Let me put it like this; against Oath on the play I prefer casting Sphere, Thorn, or Chalice (trini is too obv) than Null Rod because I'm not really sure what Null Rod is going to do for me yet.

[Smmenen]

6) Do you run Serum Powder

No, I personally do not.  I prefer to make my deck consistent enough on its own where it doesn't draw this (imo) horrible topdeck.

I've been testing Serum Powder, and it's a surprisingly complicated card to evaluate.    The simplest model for understanding it is:

Are the benefits of seeing Workshop more consistently greater than the deadweight cost of having Serum Powder at any other time?   I can see how the answer could be yes or no.   

But we have to really understand what the benefits mean, and what the deadweight costs really mean.   

* What is the benefit of having Workshop in your opening hand more consistently?

* What is the cost of having virtually dead, do-nothing permanent at other times?

Patrick Chapin wrote an article a while back, I wish I could find, where he said that Workshop decks win the vast majority of the time in which they have Workshop.   If that's the case, than Shop in Prison decks is more like Bazaar in Dredge decks than we acknowledge.

If that's the case, then Serum Powder is of a huge benefit. 

What's the cost?  Well, I remember Eric Miller's The Riddler decks.  The point there, I think, was that Workshop decks, at least historically, relied mostly on a few key cards, and the rest could be highly suboptimal, and you would never know the difference simply because the key lock parts did 80% of the heavy lifting.

Under an analysis like that, Serum Powder looks more and more attractive.

But then, there are a number of complications:

* What if you have Serum Powder and Workshop in the same hand?  Then you have to keep the hand in which you don't need Shop.

* The information you reveal with Powder can hurt.

* Removing singletons like Strip Mine or Academy could potentially hurt

Those are downsides, then there are upsides:

* having Serum Powder means you can save sideboard space on matchups like Dredge.

Serum Powder is a really interesting Vintage card, potentially enormously powerful, as we've seen in Dredge.    I look forward to seeing what people do with Powder in Workshop decks in the near future. 

[Delha]

But then, there are a number of complications:

* What if you have Serum Powder and Workshop in the same hand?  Then you have to keep the hand in which you don't need Shop.

* The information you reveal with Powder can hurt.

* Removing singletons like Strip Mine or Academy could potentially hurt

The first and third problems are thankfully mitigated by the fact that you can just take a normal mulligan over the Powder mulligan. I recall the same issue being brought up for Dredge.

[Nydaeli]

Patrick Chapin wrote an article a while back, I wish I could find, where he said that Workshop decks win the vast majority of the time in which they have Workshop.   If that's the case, than Shop in Prison decks is more like Bazaar in Dredge decks than we acknowledge.

This one?
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/13158_The_Secret_to_the_Gifts_Stax_Matchup_How_to_Gain_an_Edge_From_Either_Side.html

He says that drawing Workshop is the key to the Gifts matchup, but it's probably true of other matchups as well.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I have four Serum Powders in my MUD build (which is fairly standard otherwise and contains both Black Lotus and Mana Vault) not because it helps me find Workshop in particular but because it helps me find a hand that will play well over the first two or three turns.  I'm looking for a hand that has mana, resilience, and the ability to play at least three lock pieces by turn two.  Admittedly, Serum Powder is best when you've used it to mulligan and it removes itself from the game, but I often feel like my whole deck has gotten better after that.  Also, there are definitely times when you have Serum Powder and instead choose to mulligan to six - having multiple sideboard cards and no mana is a good example, as is having several big mana producers and no threats (because you obviously don't want to start the game by removing 20% of your mana).  There is some thought involved in the mulligans, moreso than simply digging for Bazaar game one with Ichorid.  Don't forget that it also allows you to find sideboard cards like Leyline of the Void more easily.

[madmanmike25]

Opening hands with Mishras Workshop are better than opening hands without it.

I think we can all agree on that, yes?  The problem lies in that not every hand with Workshop is keepable.  I don't think I need to go into detail, because if you play enough times you will realize I'm correct.  We are not trying to find one card like Bazzar of Baghdad. 

So now that the obvious is out of the way we have to examine Powder more carefully.  I think there are three main scenarios revolving around Serum Powder in a deck:

1.) Serum Powder is in your hand and you need to mulligan.
     a.)  Use Serum Powder. 
     b.)  Do not use Serum Powder and mulligan as normal.
2.) Serum Powder is in your hand and you do NOT need to mulligan.
3.) Serum Powder is NOT in your hand.

Granted, we could make this really tedious and outline every single possible decision tree regarding mulligans but that solves very little.  Serum Powder is either in your hand or not.  You either use it or you don't.

I think that people overlook #2 the most.  I've had many keepable hands where seeing Serum Powder was already like mulliganing to six!  No thanks.  Three mana for one mana is just a bad Metalworker in my book.  I would personally rather have another lock component, although I know next turn that 1 extra mana is not useless.

Scenario 3 is what I dislike the most.  I would rather draw into a mid game Mana Vault than Serum Powder.  Can MUD afford this as a topdeck?  Is the first scenario really so powerful that it outweighs the other two?

But as we all know people want results.  It's funny that if enough people start playing with Powder then there is the likelihood that it could put up those results......just because more people are playing with it.  I personally don't feel like Serum Powder is that good a card outside of Ichorid.

[Will]

My thoughts on Serum Powder in Workshop decks or more specifically Espresso Stax has been mainly good.  While it takes some adjusting to and a significant amount of thought the rewards you reap are often significant.  The hard part with the card as everyone said is where you draw the line on whether you Keep, Serum Powder Mulligan, or Paris when you have Serum Powder in hand.  I could go deep into the mulligan thought process now but I'd rather wait until Prospero replies because he is the one who outlined his policy to me which I currently use.  Something that everyone thus far has failed to mention is the merits of having Serum Powder in a deck with 3 Karn.  While it won't always or even often come up, it is usually pretty substantial to be bashing in for 3 extra damage because you have a "useless" Serum Powder on the field.  Another benefit of having Serum Powder around is that you increase your sources of singular colorless mana that can be spent on activated abilities which is useful with Karn as well as Rishadan Port. 

[madmanmike25]

Isn't the flip side of that coin the fact that it makes you even more susceptible to Null Rod?  Would any Serum Powder users dare to go out on a limb and say that Serum Powder and Null Rod are mutually exclusive?  I cannot imagine both in the same deck.

Is Serum Powder a card you build your deck around?  It doesn't seem like you can just stick 4 of these in any old Workshop deck and say they are good or bad.

I grant you that Karn makes Serum Powder less of a 'dead' draw.....but he also makes Orb of Dreams less of a bad late game topdeck too.  I find that point to be pretty minor.  Do all the positives aspects of Powder outweigh the negatives?

I have even tested Powders (a lot) in Metalworker+Staff combo to see if I would get it more often.  I was never really pleased with the results.  Sometimes it was marvelous, other times it was horrible.  To me, thats why it is too inconsistent in shop decks that thrive upon consistency.  Serum Powder only makes more consistent hands when deciding whether or not to mulligan.  After that, the marginal utility is pretty underwhelming in my eyes.

[Troy_Costisick]

I have even tested Powders (a lot) in Metalworker+Staff combo to see if I would get it more often.  I was never really pleased with the results.  Sometimes it was marvelous, other times it was horrible.  To me, thats why it is too inconsistent in shop decks that thrive upon consistency.  Serum Powder only makes more consistent hands when deciding whether or not to mulligan.  After that, the marginal utility is pretty underwhelming in my eyes.

I agree, at least until we see some more evidence.  BUT, if it ends up being good in Shop Decks, I think we might have to ask ourselves if it might be good everywhere.  Are Null Rod decks better with Null Rod in the opening hand for instance?

[Delha]

I'd expect the big problem here is that it's very hard to quantify the value of a "free" mulligan. It's easy to look at a card and say that it was a dead draw, but mulligans don't break down quite so easily.

@ Troy: I'd have thought Powder is only good for decks that really really want Card X. In Dredge, the explosive gain from Bazaar is pretty clear. Shop decks unquestionably benefit immensely from its presence, but tapping Shop twice doesn't generate "answer now or die" board states with the same consistency. In any non-Shop deck, I think that the already marginal utility of a drawn Powder is further diminished.

[Smmenen]

FYI, this is how I'd build MUD, and why:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40729.msg563488#new

[madmanmike25]

Congrats on the win!  I assume its the same list from the meandeck open and if that is in fact the case, isn't it safe to post it here as well to help generate discussion?

Nice list.  If it was me I would -3 Steels, -1 Masticore for  4 Smokes.  Another quick question; did you ever try out Ports in the City slots?  I also notice no Serum Powders, they didn't make the cut in your eyes?

Also when does that other MUD article become public?