The MUD Thread

[madmanmike25]

@Leooooh
Seems like Helm could be really good, I see too much Inkwell though and shroud is such a bitch.  A good combo would be Mishras Factory+Crucible+Helm.  Against Fish though, I usually sb in Powder Kegs.  I will definitely give it a test, thanks for pointing it out.  I hate to state the obvious, but Mox+Orchard-> Oath is usually gg.  Your best options are CotV@2, Smokestack, or using Sphere effects to make it uncastable before you win.  Ensnaring Bridge is nice too, until they put Terastodon in play.

1. mathematically, you have a 13% chance of drawing it in your opening hand if you are on the go, lotus is worse on the draw, in my opinion. Not only this, you need to have an effective card for lotus to be valuable, thus lowering the chance of it being an impact on the game.

So.....run effective cards in your deck?

2. After turn one, lotus might as well be an ornithopter, though not always the case after a smokestack wipe.

Completely disagree.  Ever notice how Spheres make things cost more?  Do you ever want to play multiple threats on a single turn?

3. it is a dead card (at the best) vs any deck running welders (which seems to be on the rise due to lodestone).

Unless you use it to cast a Trike/Dupe.  But yeah, its not ideal vs Goblin Welder.  I like Needles in my sb to go along with maindeck Trikes.

Anyone else ever used Lotus+Shop to cast a Lodestone then a Sphere on turn 1?  I have found plenty of uses for Black Lotus in my decks.

[the42up]

sure, who has not had the opening hand of shop-lotus-golem-sphere for a near instant win?  I would have to say though, that mathematically, such a hand is pretty slim and hardly reason to weigh the merits of lotus, somewhere around 1 in 250. 

I mean, I suppose, under that line of thought, i should splash blue for tinker and whatever else for a turn one god hand.


We are not asking if lotus is good, but is it optimal in stax decks.


I think you missed my point, lotus turn one is great, the further into the game we go, the weaker a lotus draw becomes. I am referring to that, not of you having it on the board prior to a sphere/trini/thorn lock.



In the end, i dont think lotus makes stax less consistent for the trade off a random chance explosive opener.

Though, it is noted that lotus does have the nice place of being able to cast through a lock via holding off a turn (i.e put a lotus out under the lock at the added cost then use it next turn to nullify the lock). In my play, I have found these occurrences to be rare (mainly b/c i do not need lotus to cast under the lock). I mean for the most part, if you have 2-3 spheres up and running, game is probably in hand. And if its not, say storm is holding its position to hurkyll, lotus probably isnt going to do much anyway.

[Evenpence]

sure, who has not had the opening hand of shop-lotus-golem-sphere for a near instant win?  I would have to say though, that mathematically, such a hand is pretty slim and hardly reason to weigh the merits of lotus, somewhere around 1 in 250. 

I mean, I suppose, under that line of thought, i should splash blue for tinker and whatever else for a turn one god hand.


We are not asking if lotus is good, but is it optimal in stax decks.


I think you missed my point, lotus turn one is great, the further into the game we go, the weaker a lotus draw becomes. I am referring to that, not of you having it on the board prior to a sphere/trini/thorn lock.



In the end, i dont think lotus makes stax less consistent for the trade off a random chance explosive opener.

Though, it is noted that lotus does have the nice place of being able to cast through a lock via holding off a turn (i.e put a lotus out under the lock at the added cost then use it next turn to nullify the lock). In my play, I have found these occurrences to be rare (mainly b/c i do not need lotus to cast under the lock). I mean for the most part, if you have 2-3 spheres up and running, game is probably in hand. And if its not, say storm is holding its position to hurkyll, lotus probably isnt going to do much anyway.

You can make the same argument for every land in the deck except maybe Strip Mine.  Do I really want to see Tolarian Academy mid-game when I've already expended all my cards?  What about City of Brass or Basic Mountain?  Sure, they're great in your opening grip when you need to cast spells, but when you're just topdecking cards, they're nothing more than a permanent to sacrifice to Smokestack.

Now clearly you're not making as ridiculous an argument as the one above -- I am straw manning a good bit here.  The only time Black Lotus is an actual liability is in Welder mirrors.  Having an artifact in your graveyard allows your opponent to screw with Smokestack, Tangle Wire, etc.

The benefit that the Lotus provides you being in your opening grip far outweighs it's "dead weight" later on in the game.  You can still play it to weld it out, sacrifice it to Smokestack, or use it as a discard to Bazaar -- in that regard it is far from being worthless.

[the42up]

You can make the same argument for every land in the deck except maybe Strip Mine.  Do I really want to see Tolarian Academy mid-game when I've already expended all my cards?  What about City of Brass or Basic Mountain?  Sure, they're great in your opening grip when you need to cast spells, but when you're just topdecking cards, they're nothing more than a permanent to sacrifice to Smokestack.

Now clearly you're not making as ridiculous an argument as the one above -- I am straw manning a good bit here.  The only time Black Lotus is an actual liability is in Welder mirrors.  Having an artifact in your graveyard allows your opponent to screw with Smokestack, Tangle Wire, etc.

The benefit that the Lotus provides you being in your opening grip far outweighs it's "dead weight" later on in the game.  You can still play it to weld it out, sacrifice it to Smokestack, or use it as a discard to Bazaar -- in that regard it is far from being worthless.

Tolarian Academy is a much stronger mid/late draw than lotus.  It is free under the lock and allows for complete negation of most of the lock pieces as far as casting a permanent goes. As far as the other lands go, you dont carry them as one of's in your deck, increasingly likelihood to have them in your opening hand and first few draws...and lands are free drop permanent under a lock...unlike lotus.

As for pointing out that the only time lotus is a liability is in welder mirrors, that seems to be a liability on the rise.

As for your argument about welding it, saccing it and discarding to bazaar...ornithopter fits the same criteria, but i dont see it being played in stax decks.  But your point is that you have roughly a 1/25 chance to have a nuts draw and if you dont, you have an ornithopter.


I am not arguing that lotus does not lead to broken turns if you are on the play, I am just pointing out that in the stax list, it is one of the weaker cards over a long session of games.

[madmanmike25]

I'm updating this thread with a deckilst and mini-report from the Houston Grand Prix Vintage event on Easter.

"Bottom of the Ninth"

4 Lodestones
4 Trikes
2 Karn
2 Metalworker

4 Smoke
4 Tangle
4 Spheres
4 Chalice
3 Thorns
1 Trinisphere

4 Shops
4 Wastes
4 Ports
4 Tombs
3 Tolarian/Strip/City
9 SoLoMoxenCrypt

Round 1 vs. Joe with Red Shop:  He wins the die roll (this is my life) and plays Mountain, Mox Monkey, go.  I have 2 moxen and Crypt in hand, a Tomb, another land, Karn, and Lodestone.  I play the Lodestone and keep the Crypt for later.  Predictably he uses his mana for the turn to eat my moxen.  Doesn't matter.  Lodestone swings and swings and gets lethal after being chumped by 2 monkeys.
Game 2:  He plays a turn 1 Thorn.  I play a turn 1 Metalworker.  So much for mana denial.... I get Smoke online and win with a creature swinging.

Round 2 vs. John with ???*  I lose the die roll (yeah again).  He plays a turn 1 Thoughtseize and takes my Golem.  I play Sphere effects and keep him from doing anything relevent and win.  
Game 2:  I get another turn 1 Thoughtseize taking yet another Golem.  Doesn't matter.  I play a Chalice @ 1 and Thorn on turn 1.  I think he did nothing his turn 2.  I then proceed to lay down Chalice @ 2, then next turn Chalice @ 3.  Brutal.  Game goes on a bit but Im confident since I wont get Hurked or see Rebuild and I win.  I had to find John after the game to ask him what deck he was playing because he never had a chance to really cast anything telling.  *He was playing Oath.

Round 3 vs.???(sorry I forgot to write it down) with Oath.  He wins the die roll and goes Mox, Orchard, Oath.  I lose.  Skillz.
Game 2: I get enough locks and swing with a late game Lodestone for lethal.  I was at 28 life at one point due to Claim.  
Game 3:  He has an early Tinker into DSC.  I survive for a bit with Tangle Wire and Rishadan Port but not enough to get Smoke out in time.  I lose.  Note that if DSC had been Inkwell or Sphinx I would have won the game more likely than not.

Round 4 vs. Luis with guess what.....Oath.  I do what I do best and lose the die roll (apparently Jesus is pissed im not painting Easter Eggs??).  On top of that I mull, but somehow win.
Game 2: A nail-biter.  We both have Mana Crypt in play and its completely fair because neither of us take relevent damage.  I believe I capped him and took out Tinker target, and 2 Terrastodons leaving Iona because she is the least of my worries.  He still Oaths and gets her into play.   I have 2 Metalworkers and 2 Spirit tokens and get him to 4 life.  He topdecks Time Walk ftw.  Nice.
Game 3: THIS IS PROOF THAT JESUS HATES ME.  I'm on the play and keep what I believe was a very respectable hand consisting of 2 Mox, 1 Sol Ring, Strip Mine, City of Traitors, and TWO Lodestone Golems.  I'm even more confident because he had to mulligan.  My Golem Resolves and I'm feeling ok since I will get to Strip him AND lay another Golem turn 2, but no....he plays Black Lotus.....and Claim's my Lodestone.....and casts Oath.....and plays Forbidden Orchard.  2 Terrastodon's later I lose.  Luis is a nice friendly player so good luck to him.

Round 5 vs Dave??? from San Antonio with Tezz I assume since he is Drain/Tinker/Key based.  I WIN THE DIE ROLL!! And it's even more awesome because I have zero chance to be in the Top 8!!!  He Tinkers for Inkwell, I amp Smokestack and win at 4 life.  DSC would have won here and I mention this after the match.
Game 2:  I believe he Tinkered again and won.
Game 3  He keeps countering my threats but I keep drawing more.  I get a mid game Jesters Cap and activate it when he Tinkers on his turn.  The only reason I didn't use it immediately is because I knew he wouldn't have Stifle and I had other potential uses for my mana.  Trike beats ftw.  We both knew we were out, but still played some good games.  He seemed like a really nice guy.

And yeah, I made 9th place.

Cheers to all my opponents for being competent and polite.  Hopefully they had a good time in Houston.
Cheers to my deck for only having to Mulligan 2 times out of 13 games.  And also to Rishadan Port.  Very nice, and I never once wished it was a Factory btw.

Jeers to the dice that I had to buy at the event because I forgot mine at home.  I'm seriously going to melt them.
Jeers to Oath of Druids, a four-of 2cc win condition that typically doesn't even require Orchard.  I can handle Oath, I can handle Tinker, and I can handle Time Vault, but all of them in the same deck?  At least vs other Time Vault/Tinker decks I can handle a Dark Confidant...
Jeers to losing in 3 games being the same as getting swept: losing in 2.  Likewise, jeers to winning in 2 games being the same as winning in 3.  Rules are rules, but I think you should get SOME credit for winning 1 game in a match.  Tiebreakers, meh.

[Kotch]

Congratulations! 9th place is frustrating, but it's still a nice result

Didn't you ever wish that your two Metalworkers were Crucibles? My metagame is full of Null Rods/Wastelands so I really have to protect my mana base with crucible rather than Metalworker, but what about your Oath metagame? Wouldn't Crucible be more threatful for your opponents?

[Mith]

Didn't you ever wish that your two Metalworkers were Crucibles?

My thoughts exactly. I'd be tempted to drop the City of Traitors and two Metal Workers for three Crucibles.

Also, I'm not sure if you were playing Duplicant...but it's pretty good vs. Oath.

[Smmenen]

Eon Hub is also an option if you expect an unusual amount of Oath.   

[madmanmike25]

Actually I was playing 3 Dupes sb and I never saw them when it counted.  And truth be told no, they aren't that good vs. Oath.  Alllow me to quote myself:

Duplicant?  Well he takes away 1, but you still have creature advantage so Oath is going to trigger again.  And to be honest, if you see Terrastodon you are going to be hard pressed to get 6+mana(Sphere effects) to cast that Dupe.  Eon Hub stops my most common way for dealing with Oath: Smoke and Tangles.  Seems viable though in the sense that you hope to see one or the other.

Allow me to add more.  You have to find Duplicant in a deck with little/no card draw.  You then have to resolve Duplicant, but that's true of any anti-oath card.  I'm just pointing out that is it difficult.  If your opponent was really low hp then you may have a chance with your single Dupe and Tangles.

I encountered exactly zero Null Rods and when I cast the Metalworkers they were golden, except against Oath naturally.  But if you read round 4, I almost won with Metalworker beats.  Also in round 1 I wouldn't have been able to cast a Crucible through that Thorn.  The lone City has treated me well.  At it's worst I get 4 mana out of it before it goes away.

My original plan for an anti-Oath sb was to simply bring in 3 Staff of Domination's and 2 more Metalworkers.  I figured they would speed my deck up.  The Metalworkers are great against Shops w/o Rod's as well.  But when I playtested right before the event I never got the combo so I just impetuously took them out.  But my sb for the day consisted of:

4 Relic (didnt use)
3 Caps (used them)
3 Dupes (didnt use and didnt need to use when I had them)
3 Rods  (didnt use)
2 Needle (didnt use)

By "didn't use" that also means I might not have seen the card even though I sb'ed it in.

I'm quite convinced Oath/Tinker/Time Vault is the most powerful deck at the moment.  And that's not just because I faced Oath 3/5 of my matches.  It's hard to keep my opponent off 2 mana or win w/o creatures.

[voltron00x]

Eon Hub is also an option if you expect an unusual amount of Oath.   

I stole Eon Hub from the NY guys, who later told me they didn't like it... but it did more or less win me a game against Oath.  I had to support it with Duplicant though, to beat Tinker.

Duplicant is good against some Oath decks and poor against others.  It won't save you very well against Dragon versions, and its poor against Terastodon.  I still think its a good choice though since it is strong in the Fish match-up, given MUD's limited outs to a fast Trygon.

[voltron00x]

Actually I was playing 3 Dupes sb and I never saw them when it counted.  And truth be told no, they aren't that good vs. Oath.  Alllow me to quote myself:

Duplicant?  Well he takes away 1, but you still have creature advantage so Oath is going to trigger again.  And to be honest, if you see Terrastodon you are going to be hard pressed to get 6+mana(Sphere effects) to cast that Dupe.  Eon Hub stops my most common way for dealing with Oath: Smoke and Tangles.  Seems viable though in the sense that you hope to see one or the other.

Allow me to add more.  You have to find Duplicant in a deck with little/no card draw.  You then have to resolve Duplicant, but that's true of any anti-oath card.  I'm just pointing out that is it difficult.  If your opponent was really low hp then you may have a chance with your single Dupe and Tangles.

I encountered exactly zero Null Rods and when I cast the Metalworkers they were golden, except against Oath naturally.  But if you read round 4, I almost won with Metalworker beats.  Also in round 1 I wouldn't have been able to cast a Crucible through that Thorn.  The lone City has treated me well.  At it's worst I get 4 mana out of it before it goes away.

My original plan for an anti-Oath sb was to simply bring in 3 Staff of Domination's and 2 more Metalworkers.  I figured they would speed my deck up.  The Metalworkers are great against Shops w/o Rod's as well.  But when I playtested right before the event I never got the combo so I just impetuously took them out.  But my sb for the day consisted of:

4 Relic (didnt use)
3 Caps (used them)
3 Dupes (didnt use and didnt need to use when I had them)
3 Rods  (didnt use)
2 Needle (didnt use)

By "didn't use" that also means I might not have seen the card even though I sb'ed it in.

I'm quite convinced Oath/Tinker/Time Vault is the most powerful deck at the moment.  And that's not just because I faced Oath 3/5 of my matches.  It's hard to keep my opponent off 2 mana or win w/o creatures.

I actually feel like Oath is already past its peak, simply due to metagame adjustments.  As strong as the deck can be, its also very tough to beat MUD with Oath when you lose the die roll.  The sudden explosion of Noble Fish in the NE isn't helping things; its a winnable match-up but it takes work and, more importantly, sideboard slots that are already tight.  Dredge is no picnic either, unless you have 7-8 SB cards.  Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor make it a weird match-up, b/c if you don't have hate, they have outs to your engine.

[madmanmike25]

I actually feel like Oath is already past its peak, simply due to metagame adjustments. 

I'll just have to strongly disagree with you.  That's almost like saying Tinker is past its peak and Oath plays that as well.  I don't think the Time Vault days are at an end either.  But if you don't mind I'd rather not start a debate here if Oath is past its peak, or on a plateau, or still climbing the mountain.

Nature's Claim seems to be common in Oath sb's and it makes sense.  CotV@2 shuts off Grudge as well as Oath and thats when Claim sneaks in there.  Not to say I didn't see a Grudge or two go in the graveyard after Oathing.

Duplicant is a solid sb card in conjunction with maindeck Trikes for the fish matchup.  I didn't do any scouting at the tourny so I wasn't aware of any Noble Fish presence.

[voltron00x]

Let me state what I'm saying a different way.

In a vacuum, Oath is better than ever.  The power level of the deck has been on a straight line up over the last year.  Terastodon, Iona, Hellkite, and Sphinx let you take the deck in a variety of directions.  Oath might actually be the most powerful deck playing Time Vault right now.

It's not Oath that's the problem, its the metagame.  Oath's performance in the PA/NJ/MD/NY meta has dropped off dramatically if you look at Oct through January versus February and March.  The deck went from winning tournaments, to making the top 8 but failing to win, to barely making top 8 at all.  Sideboard hate and a shift toward aggressive Shop decks and anti-Oath Fish decks has made it much harder to play Oath and have success.

Much like Tezz, you can build an Oath deck that beats Noble Fish, and you can build an Oath deck that beats Shops, and you can have a SB that beats Dredge and Storm, and you can have an acceptable Tezz match-up, but doing all of those things at once is exceedingly difficult.  In that way, Oath and Tezz are occupying a similar spot in our metagame at the moment.

Still, Vintage is very regional.  The deck is likely to continue to dominate in some places, just like I fully expect there will be tournaments where the deck still breaks out in the NE.  It's just going to be challenging when you see 2, 3, and 4 Noble Fish decks in the top 8.

[madmanmike25]

Oath might actually be the most powerful deck playing Time Vault right now.

That's exactly how I feel.  I would add that Oath is the strongest deck playing Tinker as well.

I've been thinking the past couple of days on better ways to combat Oath and remembered and old old card:  Larry Nivens Disk, aka Nevinyrral's Disk to those unfamiliar with the author.  I was thinking a combination of Cap's, Dupes, and Disks could be really powerful and versatile against Oath as well as other decks.  Disk seems like the ultimate reset button except for lands.

So Disk has the dreaded "comes into play tapped" on it.  So what?  I don't always get to use Jesters Cap the turn I cast it.  Smokestack also takes a turn to get online so it may as well 'come into play tapped' for all intensive purposes.

The way I was thinking about using it was just to cast it and wait until it is necessary to pop it off.  If they Oath up Terrastodon it will still trigger his elephant ability, but you can at least get rid of the 9/9 and the Oath.  Note that if you cast this after they have Oath on the table and it's about to trigger, you have to pray you will see Iona.

Thoughts?  Disk seems like it has many other applications as well, especially in a Stax deck.

EDIT:  Lets hope people keep choosing Inkwell and Sphinx over DSC.

[scifiantihero]

I've always enjoyed resolving a Disk against a Stax deck.  I'm not sure I'd ever want to be casting it in a deck where every other non-land card is an artifact that's going to die when the Disk is set off.

Powder Keg is pretty good, and works well against oath sometimes.  I haven't tested such an aggro mud deck, however.

[JCrawl]

Hola folks. I regularly read The Mana Drain, but I haven't posted until now.

I played in the Vintage Side Event this weekend at the Grand Prix as well, also sporting a MUD Deck similar to MadmanMike.

Here is my list:

4 Lodestone Golem
2 Duplicant
3 Triskelion
2 Karn
3 Smokestacks
3 Crucible
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1Trinisphere
4 Chalice of theVoid

5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Mishra's Workshop
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
2 City Of Traitors

SB:

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Jester's Cap
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus

One card I think that is worth discussing as a SB option against Oath is Ashnod's Altar.Although Eon Hub turns off Oath , it also hurts two key cards in our deck, Tangle Wire, and Smokestacks, which are both good against Oath. The mana generated from sacrificing the token can be used to activate Factories, which after creating a lock can be used to win the game. Also, if Oath has the turn 1 God hand with Forbidden Orchard Mox Oath, Ashnod's Altar is much easier to cast Turn 1 than Eon Hub. Please tell me what you guys think.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

The problem with ashnod's altar is that usually an oath player will activate the orchard at your eot if possible (if he doesn't need the mana).
Then, you'd have to immediately sac the spirit, thus not being able to use the 2 mana.

You could also look at spawning pit, which also allows you to sac creatures, costs 2.
you can make a creature every second upkeep, then sac it to stack for example. Or you generate a lot of them at your opponents eot for an alpha strike. Or, as with altar, you just prevent having tokens, but until when? You somehow need creatures to win, don't you? Unless you can smokestack them out of the game.

I don't really know which one is better. Or if any of them for that matter. I would tend to the pit.

 

[JCrawl]

The problem with ashnod's altar is that usually an oath player will activate the orchard at your eot if possible (if he doesn't need the mana).
Then, you'd have to immediately sac the spirit, thus not being able to use the 2 mana.

You could also look at spawning pit, which also allows you to sac creatures, costs 2.
you can make a creature every second upkeep, then sac it to stack for example. Or you generate a lot of them at your opponents eot for an alpha strike. Or, as with altar, you just prevent having tokens, but until when? You somehow need creatures to win, don't you? Unless you can smokestack them out of the game.

I don't really know which one is better. Or if any of them for that matter. I would tend to the pit.

I would argue that Ashnod's Altar, in a MUD deck, is strictly better than Spawning Pit. The two mana generated from the Altar can be used to cast an additional lock piece, (i.e. Thorn, Sphere, etc.) while Spawning Pit does not give an immediate advantage. As a side note, the benefit from Ashnod's Altar only comes for MUD decks running Mishra's Factory, which, from my Vintage testing, proves extremely beneficial.

Both are defintely good cards, but lets look at the benefit of each. Ashnod's Altar lets you use mana NOW, while Spawning Pit could set you back a turn, potentially two, and potentially show no advantage because we will eventually sac the token to prevent an Oath trigger.

This advantage is why I argue that the Altar could be the superior answer to Oath for MUD. We can use the mana immediately, and we have no upkeep setbacks (i.e. sacrificing our upkeep for Smokestack and Tangle Wire to Eon Hub)

[JCrawl]

I apologize for my last post. It combined my reply to a previous post with my response. Hopefully it will be easy to delineate between the two.

[JCrawl]

My argument begins with "I would argue that..." Again, sorry for the confusion

[Bill Copes]

Probably a lame addition to the discussion, but Altar + Factory + Crucible is a fair mana generator on its own, turning mishra's factory into a colorless lotus each turn.

[Killane]

Altar seems even better when you consider that Oath players are often forced to use Orhards on their turn, especially when bigger spells like Jace are seeing play. If they do, you then have the opportunity to main-phase the Altar effect and really get millage out of the mana. This seems awesome.

[RJ]

If they are using it main phase, wouldn't skullclamp just be better than altar?

[madmanmike25]

Clamp is 'better' as a draw engine, but not 'better' at stopping Oath triggering and that's really the issue here.  So I would say that Altar/Pit is the better card because Oath triggering is not worth getting those 2 cards imo.

Also as Peter pointed out you can respond to Smoke with creating a Pit token to sack.  That makes it pretty versatile imo.  I also like the fact that if Smoke clears the board of Oath, you can make 2/2's for 1 mana each.  Even 2-3 of those would be a decent enough clock after you hit the reset button.  Under Spheres and Thorn the 1 mana difference between Altar and Pit might actually matter.  So far I would lean towards Pit as being slightly better than Altar and definitely better than Clamp.

@ Jcrawl:  Nice list and how did u do at the tourny?  Any reason you only run 3 Smokes?  That's a card I would play more than 4 if it were possible.  Did Needles ever do anything for you?  Also are you from Houston or were you just visiting?  And welcome to TMD!

[JCrawl]

I actually came in 10th right behind you. Super frustrating loss to a guy playing Legacy Merfolk with Null Rod/Lotus/Sapphire added in. Wakethrasher beats.

I'm from Houston, and I play at Asgard Games over at Kirby and 610 (my name is Jeremy).

Regarding my list and only running 3 Smokestacks: I thought about running 4 Smokestacks, but I wanted to run more creatures (2 Duplicant mianly). That's why you see 3 Thorn and 3 Smokestacks.

Also Pithing Needle was in the board for Dredge and Fish mainly (because of the 10 proxy rule, I expected a TON of Dredge and Fish thinking they would be the easiest to build if you had the Legacy cards, but I didn't even get a chance to utilize it. I played against 2 Oath, a guy playing UB Drain Control (I think that's what he was playing, I locked him out of the game so fast both times I honestly couldn't tell), Christmas Beats, and the prementioned Merfolk deck.

[madmanmike25]

Yeah I know you man, I play at Asgard too!  We have played each other, I'm the 6'2" Mike who plays MUD if you needed more info.  Do you know who won the Recall?  Did you see ANYONE playing Dredge? 

Sux losing to Merfolk.  I'll see you at Asgard for the next Vintage event or sooner.

[grahaminator]

Yeah I know you man, I play at Asgard too!  We have played each other, I'm the 6'2" Mike who plays MUD if you needed more info.  Do you know who won the Recall?  Did you see ANYONE playing Dredge? 

Sux losing to Merfolk.  I'll see you at Asgard for the next Vintage event or sooner.

Hey I'm the other Mike that plays MUD at Asgards, probably can guess my last name from my TMD screen name (my handle here is the same as on their forums). Unfortunately I wasn't able to go to the event, not sure if I would have played MUD or Two Card Monte. I sent an email to the event organizer asking for top 8 lists so I could post them here but haven't heard back since they told me would see if they could gather the lists.

Ashnods Altar is solid, I bought a few Antiquities ones a couple months ago.  As I haven't run Smokestack in MUD in awhile, but I do run a full set of Metalworkers along with 3 Staffs and I'm trying to fit in a pair of Crucibles. The thing I dont like about Spawning Pit is the activation cost, Altar is free to activate and the extra mana it generates can help getting Staff going if you don't have a Metalworker. Also, I don't see why people are cutting City of Traitors...its been golden for me and I haven't even ran Crucible main in months.

[Cyberpunker]

As the main Oath player in my Metagame (Main Elephant Oath player). I speak from experience that MetalWorker combo without the Golems is the best way to go. What exactly do you need Golems for ir you can go off with Metalworker? You have access to Sphere of Resistance and Thorn already. All the decks that run Golem cannot beat Oath because Golem does not win you the game fast enough to race Oath of Druids. You will not be guaranteed a victory over Oath but you will have a much harder time winning against Oath with Golems rather than with Metalworker.

@Voltron00X

Oath is not past its prime. It is entering its Era  . Seriously though, Noble Fish is winnable after s/b and game 1 if you can get the jump on them. Metalworker combo is only dangereous because they can go off before Oath can. Its simply who goes off first.

[halo295]

I have played mud for a couple month now and the deck is just better with the golems in then with them out. I also play the metalworker staff combo and i have never had a problem beating oath. Every time i have gotten a golem to resolve the oath player has not been happy. I see no reason to cut him what so ever from the deck

[Neonico]

How could a Oath player been unhappy once you resolved a golem ? As a turn one, even on the play against an oath player, it's the worst turn 1 you can have... It will be able to play his acceleration, negating the ability of the golem to make oath more expensive (which is key in the first 2 turns), and they won't need to spend ressources to find an orchard.... And a golem won't beat a sphynx for exemple....

It's clearly the worst card in the matchup, and the first card i side out against oath....