The MUD Thread

[Neonico]

I just don't get it. Why play some prison cards in an aggro deck ?

Really?

4 Sphere, 4 Lodestone, 4 Thorn, 1 Trinisphere, 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Tangle Wire, 2-4 Crucible of Worlds, 4 Wasteland, 1 Strip Mine

Thats 29 cards if you put Crucible at 3.  That's almost half of some of these decklists!

I really don't think you do get it.  You ALREADY play with lock components.  Those are ALL prison components that are necessary for the deck to compete in Vintage, without them you might as well run Frogmites and Myr Enforcer and play a true aggro deck.

I will agree with you about Crucible in the sb, so far thats where I have been preferring it.  The main reason I say that is because of those damn fetchlands that get 2-3 basics.  But honestly I think you want either MW or Crucible maindeck in MUD.  It's hard to imagine a competitive deck without either of those cards in mono brown.

Perhaps i'm stupid or something, but for me, it's totally false to say that all of this : 4 Sphere, 4 Lodestone, 4 Thorn, 1 Trinisphere, 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Tangle Wire, 2-4 Crucible of Worlds, 4 Wasteland, 1 Strip Mine are prison component IN A MUD DECK

There is a Huge difference between MUD and Stax, and how they use some common Cards.
Yes, i agree with you, both MUD and stax run 2spheres, 3spheres and Tangle wires, but for totally different purpose.

The goal of stax, the prison deck, is to gather a combinaison of lock piece to etablish a hard lock on the game.
The goal of MUD is to disrupt your opponnent, slowing him enough to let you beaters finish him, that's a totally different goal and gamestyle.

MUD use wastelands, Sphere of Resistance and tangle wire as TEMPO elements, not lock elements. It's alot closer to a fish strategy (where 2spheres act like Daze, wasteland like wasteland, beaters like fishies, etc....) than a prison strategy. In stax deck, smokestack and Crucdible are pure lock elements. They don't gain you some tempo, they just help you to turn the soft lock into a hard lock.

For me, it's a really common misstake when building a MUD deck to include those cards. I think it's missunderstanding how the deck operate.

I will agree with you about Crucible in the sb, so far thats where I have been preferring it.  The main reason I say that is because of those damn fetchlands that get 2-3 basics.  But honestly I think you want either MW or Crucible maindeck in MUD.  It's hard to imagine a competitive deck without either of those cards in mono brown.

Last time i checked, most of the MUd list (once again, i insist on MUD, because mono brown stax is a completly different archetype) don't play Crucible except in sideboard for the fish/Stax matchup, and allmost none of them even play smokestack in their sideboard, and non maindeck.

[madmanmike25]

I'm sorry but you are just wrong here.  Tempo elements, lock elements, prison elements, disruption elements.....it's the same.  Semantics won't change how those cards effect your opponent.  You say MUD is more like a Fish strategy??? Way off.  Have you even seen the finalized MUD list by Arthur Tindemans from back in the day?  You know, the guy who actually helped invent MUD?  Here let me show you the list then:

Mud's Decklist
4 Smokestack (Yes, really)
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Powder Keg
4 Grafted Skullcap
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Winter Orb
1 Memory Jar
3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
3 Petrified Field
1 Strip Mine

Yeah, that's old skool MUD.  You honestly want to sit here and tell me MUD is more of an aggro deck than a prison(or whatever u wish to call it) deck?  Do you see any Juggernauts in that list?  You make it seem like MUD and Stax are mutually exclusive, that's not the case.  You also make it sound like MUD is a dedicated Aggro deck, again, not the case.  MUD used Karn as the killl after getting rid of its own Bridges to (big surprise) Smokestack.

My main point is that MUD can now run an effective beater in Lodestone alongside Smokestack.  That way you don't have to choose to be either Aggro or prison, you can be both.  I will say that having that option makes MUD superior to a straight aggro or a straight prison build.  Period.

I really don't know where you got the idea that MUD and mono brown Stax were so different.  Also, I'm not saying you can't run Juggernauts so feel free.  I just personally find it odd that in a deck with that many lock/stall/delay/disruption components you feel Smokestack is a "mistake" and including it is missunderstanding how the deck operates...

To finalize I will point out that even through lock pieces, you opponent can still manage to resolve a threat.  In Vintage many 2-3 cc threats exist and it is pretty hard to expect to turn creatures sideways ftw before they get that 2-3 mana.  You should run Cranial Plating then if you feel straight aggro is the way to go.

[Stormanimagus]

I'm sorry but you are just wrong here.  Tempo elements, lock elements, prison elements, disruption elements.....it's the same.  Semantics won't change how those cards effect your opponent.  You say MUD is more like a Fish strategy??? Way off.  Have you even seen the finalized MUD list by Arthur Tindemans from back in the day?  You know, the guy who actually helped invent MUD?  Here let me show you the list then:

Mud's Decklist
4 Smokestack (Yes, really)
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Powder Keg
4 Grafted Skullcap
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Winter Orb
1 Memory Jar
3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
3 Petrified Field
1 Strip Mine

Yeah, that's old skool MUD.  You honestly want to sit here and tell me MUD is more of an aggro deck than a prison(or whatever u wish to call it) deck?  Do you see any Juggernauts in that list?  You make it seem like MUD and Stax are mutually exclusive, that's not the case.  You also make it sound like MUD is a dedicated Aggro deck, again, not the case.  MUD used Karn as the killl after getting rid of its own Bridges to (big surprise) Smokestack.

My main point is that MUD can now run an effective beater in Lodestone alongside Smokestack.  That way you don't have to choose to be either Aggro or prison, you can be both.  I will say that having that option makes MUD superior to a straight aggro or a straight prison build.  Period.

I really don't know where you got the idea that MUD and mono brown Stax were so different.  Also, I'm not saying you can't run Juggernauts so feel free.  I just personally find it odd that in a deck with that many lock/stall/delay/disruption components you feel Smokestack is a "mistake" and including it is missunderstanding how the deck operates...

To finalize I will point out that even through lock pieces, you opponent can still manage to resolve a threat.  In Vintage many 2-3 cc threats exist and it is pretty hard to expect to turn creatures sideways ftw before they get that 2-3 mana.  You should run Cranial Plating then if you feel straight aggro is the way to go.

I have a question as this deck is intriguing me more and more the more I play with the decklist. Is Metalworker really worth including anymore? To me it seems sorta meh most of the time and you often don't need an exorbitant amount of mana to seal the deal. Just 4-5 total (sometimes 6 if you want to resolve Trike).

Also, I used to see a lot of lists with SoFI. Why are so many lists not including 3-4 anymore? Is the creature count simply too low? If you didn't run SoFI could you then MD Null Rod? That's what I was thinking you might do, but I'm not sure because Null is not too cozy with Trike or Karn. Could you cut the Trike (Just have Duplicants in the SB for Fish) and the Swords for Null Rod and Smokey? What are the necessary components of this deck? I used to really like SoFI and I thought it would fit right in with the new Golem (as a 7/5 pro red pro blue beater that acts like a sphere seems really strong to me) but it seems that you can't then run Null Rod and that's not the best trade off. Thoughts?

-Storm

[credmond]

I think if you are playing 4x Smokestack, it's less than optimal to not run 1 x crucible maindeck. Crucible allows you to double ramp smokestack more effectively and start netting use out of wastelands in the yard and put more pressure on the number of permanents the opponent has in play which is key when you are playing tangle wire + smokestack.

It may seem counter-intuitive to run crucible as a singleton maindeck but consider that as a singleton when you draw it it will almost always be golden whereas drawing a second or third crucible when you already have one in play can be a big problem in a deck like MUD without too much filtering options like bazaar or tutoring options like demonic or crop rotation. However you should consider the value of a single crucible in a deck like MUD to be very high and you should consider the frequency of board states where that single crucible would be backbreaking. It seems anytime you have smokestack or tanglewire in play or ready to play or a wasteland in the yard (which considering your deck is in the order of 85% probability) that crucible is going to be huge when you play it. The fact that it provides critical defense versus Fish and Stax and other wasteland based decks is additional gravy.

[kkoie]

Here's the list I ran tonight:

Mana: 27
4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Crypt
1 Vault
1 Sol Ring

Dudes: 8
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Karn
2 Trike

Lock: 24
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds

Other: 1
1 Memory Jar

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Duplicant
4 Jester's Cap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt

I like the list, and if I can convince my friends, I will be testing this.  Question though, unless my math is off, there are only 23 lock pieces, and thus only 59 cards MD.  if you cut the mjar like you are considering that free's up 2 slots (two city of traitors perhapes?)

[MirariKnight]

Do you find all 13 spheres to be necessary?

I think 13 Spheres is good but probably not totally necessary. I'm considering going down to 12, cutting probably a Resistor. My plan was to start at 13 and slowly cut down until I feel like I've hit a good number. I'm positive that number is over 10 but I'm not sure by how much.

@ Mirari

Smokestack is absolutely critical to this deck, I am not 100% convinced. Everything you (mike) have said about it is true, it is really the only way to win from behind. Smoke+Tangle lock gets you back into games where you were on the draw, the had something broken, or when you had your stuff countered, etc.

Am I misinterpreting this?  Are you saying that you aren't 100% sure about running Smokestack, and then you explain how good it is.  Could you clarify this for me please?  Would you have preferred Juggernauts in that slot instead?

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to say I am 100% concinved. Smokestack is one of the best cards in the deck.

This deck mulligans even more than Shops usually do. If you don't have a hand with at least 4 mana turn 2, you should probably send it back. This is because almost every hand will have some type of Sphere effect.

I'm going to guess that not running City of Traitors is giving you mulligan issues because that hasn't happened to me.  Do you really want to see Mishras Factory that early?  Could you try running a split of 2 City/2 Factories?

I'm gonna try a City of Traitors, maybe 2, but I really don't like it because it's basically a terrible Black Lotus. I feel as though when you play it, you're kinda forced into playing Crucible off it most of the time. The arguments against Black Lotus (which I don't agree with) certainly apply to City.

Also, could you please tell me or find out how many basics Vroman was running in his Oath list?  Lists always change and the basic land count may have influence on how good Crucible performed for you.  I notice you don't run 4 Trikes, and I'm guessing thats because you don't run Metalworker.  I know Trike isn't really good against Oath but its a beast against Fish, even if they have Null Rod because it's still a 4/4.  RGF'ing Bridge from Below is nice too vs Ichorid.

He was running a Forest and an Island. Fish was running at least 3 basics. Crucible wasn't the best card in the deck but I never wished it was Metalworker. Against Fish and I'm sure obviously against Shops, Crucible's value increases exponentially.
Trike is really good, I agree. I know all the cool tricks with Trike/Karn and Trike+Removing bridges, etc. 6 mana is too much to run as a 4 of. I'd consider going to 3 but I can't imagine ever wanting more than that. I guess Metalworker would make him much easier to cast but I haven't had problems casting anything else and I don't think it's worth it to play Metalworker just for Trike and awesome Jar hands.

It's good to hear that Lodestone was at least decent vs Oath.  Did you ever sb them out?  I trust you put your Caps in post board.

I never sided Lodestone out. Sphere effects are stupid good against Oath because the entire deck is designed to be a super low (0-2) mana curve. Lodestone is fine to drop against Oath. Assuming you have a decent hand with another guy or lock piece, you can race Oath with beatdown. He's also awesome because they can't Spell Pierce him.

Caps come in, as do some number of Duplicants. Contrary to what I said earlier, I might want to board out Spheres against Oath because Chalice @2 is so good. I'm not sure if it's worth losing the Sphere effect though. Chalice @1 is similarly good. Preemptive Spell Pierce protection and shuts down so many critical spells.

If you don't have an exact count, could you guesstimate the percentage of match wins against both Fish and Oath?

Thanks for sharing your results with us,
Mike

Vroman was counting, I forget exactly. I believe we played about 10 games. I was something like 6-4 or 7-3, I think half and half with board.
Against Fish I think I played maybe 6-7 games. I believe I only lost 1 or 2.
I don't think those results are typical, obviously. If I had to guess I'd say slightly better than 50/50 vs. Oath if you're both competent, and 60/40+ vs. Noble Fish. I didn't really feel like there was anything Fish could do to stop me unless they had a double waste or double Force hand.


As far as the issue of running lock pieces, I'm going to have to agree 100% with madmanmike. If you want to call the lock pieces tempo elements, that's fine. That's what they are. Lodestone is Tempo Incarnate, for 3 reasons:
1. Slows down the opponent, making them unable to do things when they optimally want to
2. Doesn't slow you down, since all your stuff is artifacts, letting you do what you want when you want
3. Makes use of the extra time he buy. By himself he is a 4 turn clock. Tempo means nothing if you're just slowing the opponent. You have to use the turns you gain for something, or you're wasting your potential tempo gains. Hence the term "time walk." There is a perfect middle-ground somewhere between Aggro and Lock that allows you to have the most "slowing" effects on your opponent (locks) while still being able to use the time you buy to do something (aggro guys). The problem with cards like Juggernaut is that they only fit into one of those categories. Lodestone does both, Karn does both, Trike does both. This is also the reason I don't like Metalworker.

If you want to make a Fish comparison neonico, I'll bite. I don't really think the two decks are at all analogous, but I see a major flaw in your logic. Wastelands are like Wastelands, Spheres are like Daze/Pierce, sure. All the guys that go in Fish do something relevant and annoying to the board, save for Tarmogoyf (aka disruption). Juggernat, Su-Chi, etc. don't do that. They do nothing but swing.

While Shops probably allow you to make the fastest possible straight up aggro deck in the format (I'd imagine it would be affinity-esque, running Cranial Plating, Ravager, etc.), the beauty of Workshop is that it lets you cheat on mana through a lock. It automatically makes any lock piece you play off it asymmetrical because you have a REUSABLE BLACK LOTUS. Workshop has amazing synergy with the Tempo based lock pieces. If you want to play a fast aggro deck, I'd suggest Dredge, or even TPS/ANT, because I don't think straight up swinging with metal guys while hoping they do nothing is a viable strategy in modern vintage.

Posted on: Today at 07:52:12 AM Posted by: Stormanimagus
I have a question as this deck is intriguing me more and more the more I play with the decklist. Is Metalworker really worth including anymore? To me it seems sorta meh most of the time and you often don't need an exorbitant amount of mana to seal the deal. Just 4-5 total (sometimes 6 if you want to resolve Trike).

I completely agree. That's why I cut down on the number of Trikes as well. The only thing I really miss about Metalworker is the ability to drop your entire Jar hand, but that's never been necessary for me.

Also, I used to see a lot of lists with SoFI. Why are so many lists not including 3-4 anymore? Is the creature count simply too low? If you didn't run SoFI could you then MD Null Rod? That's what I was thinking you might do, but I'm not sure because Null is not too cozy with Trike or Karn. Could you cut the Trike (Just have Duplicants in the SB for Fish) and the Swords for Null Rod and Smokey? What are the necessary components of this deck? I used to really like SoFI and I thought it would fit right in with the new Golem (as a 7/5 pro red pro blue beater that acts like a sphere seems really strong to me) but it seems that you can't then run Null Rod and that's not the best trade off. Thoughts?

-Storm

SoFI would be pretty bad in my list because, as you said, I don't run enough creatures.
Null Rod is pretty bad for this deck actually. Trike and Karn are minor compared to how it would lock you out under you own stuff if your moxen didn't make mana.


EDIT:
As I was posting this two more posts came up -

I think if you are playing 4x Smokestack, it's less than optimal to not run 1 x crucible maindeck. Crucible allows you to double ramp smokestack more effectively and start netting use out of wastelands in the yard and put more pressure on the number of permanents the opponent has in play which is key when you are playing tangle wire + smokestack.

It may seem counter-intuitive to run crucible as a singleton maindeck but consider that as a singleton when you draw it it will almost always be golden whereas drawing a second or third crucible when you already have one in play can be a big problem in a deck like MUD without too much filtering options like bazaar or tutoring options like demonic or crop rotation. However you should consider the value of a single crucible in a deck like MUD to be very high and you should consider the frequency of board states where that single crucible would be backbreaking. It seems anytime you have smokestack or tanglewire in play or ready to play or a wasteland in the yard (which considering your deck is in the order of 85% probability) that crucible is going to be huge when you play it. The fact that it provides critical defense versus Fish and Stax and other wasteland based decks is additional gravy.

I think this is definitely true but it points out to me why you'd want more than one Crucible. You don't run any filtering or tutoring so you need to run multiples of stuff if you ever want to see it. I would agree that in a majority of games, I want to see Crucible. I do hate seeing more than 1, which is why I don't run 4.

I like the list, and if I can convince my friends, I will be testing this.  Question though, unless my math is off, there are only 23 lock pieces, and thus only 59 cards MD.  if you cut the mjar like you are considering that free's up 2 slots (two city of traitors perhapes?)

Yeah, another typo sorry. I was already running 3 Crucibles apparently. Oops. So Memory Jar will most likely become a City of Traitors.

[nineisnoone]

Thanks for your participation.  Out of curiosity, what would your 4 Karn list look like?  I'd strongly advise not cutting any Triskelions.

TBH, I don't recall.  I believe it was more or less a Uba Stax list with Karn's thrown in.  I don't have anything up to date.  I just remember when I was testing out the card, that it was great early to kill Moxen and great late to deal damage or block.  And eventually I just decided to pack the full set.  Trisk might have been cut or SBed.

Perhaps i'm stupid or something, but for me, it's totally false to say that all of this : 4 Sphere, 4 Lodestone, 4 Thorn, 1 Trinisphere, 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Tangle Wire, 2-4 Crucible of Worlds, 4 Wasteland, 1 Strip Mine are prison component IN A MUD DECK

There is a Huge difference between MUD and Stax, and how they use some common Cards.
Yes, i agree with you, both MUD and stax run 2spheres, 3spheres and Tangle wires, but for totally different purpose.

The goal of stax, the prison deck, is to gather a combinaison of lock piece to etablish a hard lock on the game.
The goal of MUD is to disrupt your opponnent, slowing him enough to let you beaters finish him, that's a totally different goal and gamestyle.

MUD is referring (I always believed at least) to being all brown.  It really has nothing to do with the style of the deck.  I've always considered a MUD deck to almost always run Metalworker.  MUD!= Shop Aggro.

I have a question as this deck is intriguing me more and more the more I play with the decklist. Is Metalworker really worth including anymore? To me it seems sorta meh most of the time and you often don't need an exorbitant amount of mana to seal the deal. Just 4-5 total (sometimes 6 if you want to resolve Trike).

It's amazing on the play, and decent on the draw (if I run it though I usually side it out when I can on draw).  Any card that demands a counter turn 1/2 is worth including.  I'm generally not huge on it, but it's never been better with the new cards and new rules addition (no mana burn).  Once it drops it helps a lot in the attrition battle and gives you more flexibility in your plays.

[Neonico]

I'm sorry but you are just wrong here.  Tempo elements, lock elements, prison elements, disruption elements.....it's the same.  Semantics won't change how those cards effect your opponent.  You say MUD is more like a Fish strategy??? Way off.  Have you even seen the finalized MUD list by Arthur Tindemans from back in the day?  You know, the guy who actually helped invent MUD?  Here let me show you the list then:

Mud's Decklist
4 Smokestack (Yes, really)
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Powder Keg
4 Grafted Skullcap
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Winter Orb
1 Memory Jar
3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
3 Petrified Field
1 Strip Mine

Yeah, that's old skool MUD.  You honestly want to sit here and tell me MUD is more of an aggro deck than a prison(or whatever u wish to call it) deck?  Do you see any Juggernauts in that list?  You make it seem like MUD and Stax are mutually exclusive, that's not the case.  You also make it sound like MUD is a dedicated Aggro deck, again, not the case.  MUD used Karn as the killl after getting rid of its own Bridges to (big surprise) Smokestack.

I don't know what you try to acheive there, but it's easy to bring a list claiming that we should build our actual list on the same basis, especially when this list was build when mirrodin wasn't even printed.
The set changed everything in the MUD and stax builds, so i don't even get the point to compare with actual lists.

And sorry, but this deck is for me MonoBrown stax, not MUD. And agreed or not, there is a big difference in those 2 decks goals and playstyle. You just don't try to acheive the same goals with this deck and a MUD list.
If you want a comparaison with the Red versions of both decks, you can also compare the strategies behind a Stacker deck, and a Red stax deck, one playing Smokestack and not the other. That's exactly the same.

My main point is that MUD can now run an effective beater in Lodestone alongside Smokestack.  That way you don't have to choose to be either Aggro or prison, you can be both.  I will say that having that option makes MUD superior to a straight aggro or a straight prison build.  Period.

In all history of magic, mainly since we have acces to internet and other people help to build, i saw alot of deck that tried to achieve 2 different strategies in a same build, and often, it failed.
And it's not surprising, as those 2 strategies require some very different build choices, mana requirements, and so on.

To finalize I will point out that even through lock pieces, you opponent can still manage to resolve a threat.  In Vintage many 2-3 cc threats exist and it is pretty hard to expect to turn creatures sideways ftw before they get that 2-3 mana.  You should run Cranial Plating then if you feel straight aggro is the way to go.

You see, that's exactly the difference between a prison strategy and a aggro/tempo strategy.
An agressive/tempo strategy just try to make harder for the opponnent to resolve a threat, start beating, and if a threat resolve, you should be in a position to win anyway by your next beat.
A stax deck need to deal with a resolved threat just because it doesn't have pressure to apply to the opponent.
Just look how differently a game with Stax and a game with MUd will end. The large majority of stax games will end with a concession from your opponent, while a large majority of the game with MUD will end with a last attack after having drop a last Tangle/Sphere to avoid the opponnent to find a way to win or a solution.

Now, just please don't carricaturate my position. Plating was played in MUD in 2008. But it's just bad actually because of null rod.

[madmanmike25]

I don't know what you try to acheive there, but it's easy to bring a list claiming that we should build our actual list on the same basis, especially when this list was build when mirrodin wasn't even printed.
The set changed everything in the MUD and stax builds, so i don't even get the point to compare with actual lists.

I posted that list so you would understand MUD’s roots.  Although it feels like we are going in circles you still think MUD is aggro and I say it can be both.  Adding 4 copies of Smokestack doesn’t change too much about how you play.
Ah Mirrodin, a great set.  I would say the 3 cards that had the most impact for Shop players were Trinisphere, Chalice, and Crucible.  Three cards that go pretty well in a prison/denial theme wouldn’t you agree?  4 Trinispheres allowed Juggernaut beats to win.  That changed when it became restricted.

In all history of magic, mainly since we have acces to internet and other people help to build, i saw alot of deck that tried to achieve 2 different strategies in a same build, and often, it failed.
And it's not surprising, as those 2 strategies require some very different build choices, mana requirements, and so on.

Again that’s where I’m trying to tell you your opinion that doing both will fail is incorrect.  I have been winning with my list.  And the “strategy” is the same; lock/stall/disrupt my opponent early then use whatever I topdeck to either beat or lock my opponent out of the game and win.  My deck can beat with 4 Lodestones, 4 Trikes, and 2 Karns.  And yes I have had opponents scoop to my lock when I had to go with Metalworker beats.  So I’m telling you that you are wrong, and I have proved that it is possible to run creatures AND Smokestack in the same deck and have good results.

An agressive/tempo strategy just try to make harder for the opponnent to resolve a threat, start beating, and if a threat resolve, you should be in a position to win anyway by your next beat

Unless of course that threat is Oath or Tinker.  Or Key+Vault.  I would laugh so hard if my opponent wanted to take infinite turns when I have Smokestack out with a counter.  Sometimes you wont get that extra turn you needed to swing for lethal.

Dude, run your aggro MUD build and have fun, just don’t tell me that running 4 copies of Smokestack in my deck is somehow changing the ENTIRE playstyle of the deck.  It doesn’t.  I have 14 creatures to go alongside it, which gives my deck versatility.  Let’s just politely agree to disagree, because you really haven’t proved anything.  But please, keep us updated with your results.  Let’s just not debate about calling it “MUD STAX” or “AGGRO MUD”.  For the sake of this thread; MONO BROWN=MUD.  Let’s keep the discussion moving forward now.

P.S. I'm having horrible luck on MWS finding solid people to test against so if anyone is interested pm me.

[unicoerner]

Here`s my actual List. I am not sure about the 2 Sculpting Steal. I played and additional Karn and Trisk, possible in these spots are some draws like Grafted Skullclamp, or some more mana sources.

I took a more Stax like approach to the deck. Karn was an auto include and Trisk is good vs Fish, Welder, Bob....

Mana: 25
4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Mox
1 Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Dudes: 11
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Karn
3 Trike
2 Sculpting Steel

Lock: 24
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds



Sideboard:
4 Tormods Crypt
3 Razorman
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Jester's Cap
1 Triskelion

What do you think about it?

[kkoie]

I'm sure this will get Neonico started on another debate, but I would suggest replacing the sculpting steel's with Black Lotus and Mana Vault and see how the deck performs.  Question, do you really need 7 yard-hate cards?

[MirariKnight]

I'm sure this will get Neonico started on another debate, but I would suggest replacing the sculpting steel's with Black Lotus and Mana Vault and see how the deck performs.  Question, do you really need 7 yard-hate cards?

Agreed on the first thing.

You really do need 6+ yard hate cards. The only deck this will really have trouble with beating is Dredge. Everything else is pretty winnable, but Dredge just avoids almost every aspect of the lock if it has to.
Oath isn't a great matchup either, I'd recommend Duplicant over Razormane in the board to answer Oath dudes as well as be good in the Fish match.

[Neonico]

Not sold on the 27th mana source : The black lotus, but the deck definatly need Mana vault as a 26th mana source to perform correctly.

Sculpting Steel is still a really nice tech as a 1 or 2-of.


As a side note : perhaps my orientations for the deck are bad. Perhaps i'm also wrong on the MUD deck definition. But i really can't agree that a prison deck require the same playstyle as an aggro deck, and is played the same way.

[Stormanimagus]

It seems like there is 1 card this deck has to fear and 1 entire deck: those are Ensnaring Bridge and Dredge respectively. I think I may have found a way to kill 2 birds with 1 stone and make the deck consistent and streamlined.

What do you guys think of a list like this?

MUD

Land (18):
4 Mishra’s Workshop
2 Mishra’s Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City Of Traitors
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (31):
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Memory Jar
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
4 Helm Of Obedience
1 Trinisphere

Artifact Creatures (7):
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Karn, Silver Golem

Enchantments (4):
4 Leyline Of The Void

SB
4 Serum Powder
4 Duplicant
4 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Relic Of Progenitus

[myw002]

I feel the loss of Crucible due to the addition of Leylines is too significant.  Despite the fact it does mess up alot decks, there's nothing like a striplock with crucible out.  Dredge could be dealt with in other ways, perhaps, EEs?  I also think maybe dropping the 4 Juggernauts for a 2/2 split of Karn and Triskelions.

[Neonico]

HE doesn't even play smokestack, and without it, crucible is not that good (i would even say bad).

What disturb me the most is the lack of MEtalworkers, especially with mana intensive cards, such as Memory jar and Sword of Fire and Ice. Don't you have any probelm with your own lock piece ?

[Bill Copes]

Land (18):
4 Mishra’s Workshop
2 Mishra’s Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City Of Traitors
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (30):
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Memory Jar
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
3 Sword Of Fire And Ice
1 Trinisphere

Artifact Creatures (8):
4 Juggernaut
4 Lodestone Golem

Enchantments (4):
4 Leyline Of The Void

SB
4 Serum Powder
4 Helm Of Obedience
3 Duplicant
4 Crucible Of Worlds

I really like your list, Noah.  It's quite streamlined and offers an excellent, alternate win-condition in the sideboard.  I'm totally testing this list.  It seems like this list out-maneuvers the Stax/Mirror match with the maindeck leylines and helms/serum powders that come in from the board.  Powder + Leyline + 12-sphere/Wastes also seems like the most solid anti-ichorid plan you can get.  Maybe X copies of Relic of Prognitus could be included, to supplement the stax/mirror/ichorid matches, or is that overkill?

I'm assuming you bring in the crucibles + duplicants for unfavorable cards (Leylines + Sofi's) in matchups against null rod?

The only slots I find unfavorable are the juggernauts, but then again I don't know what would be better there.  Karn is an excellent substitute, but he costs 1 more mana and is not as effective in a field full of null rods. . . but he does speed up the clock, eats 0cc permanents, removes bridge from below, etc.  I wouldn't play more than 3, however.

[madmanmike25]

@Storms list

With only 8 creatures (and 2 Factories) I think Swords can go out.  They are proving to be way too inconsistent, sometimes good and sometimes dead.  Not really what MUD wants imo.

Also if you are going to maindeck LL why would you not maindeck Helm??  Why leave the alternate win sb?  I'm going to say it seems janky though because if you dont see LL opening hand your only chance to cast it is off a Lotus, and thats a pipe dream.  So if you are gonna go that route, you might even put Powders maindeck too.  You will have to ask yourself if thats better than Metalworker+Staff though, Staff can beat Ichorid too.

And you are right about your assessment of the card E.Bridge and Dredge decks.  Only I have to mention that MUD lists with Smokestack dont have a problem with the former.

Right now I'm testing a different version of MUD and I will update the thread when I find the results I'm looking for.

Not sold on the 27th mana source : The black lotus, but the deck definatly need Mana vault as a 26th mana source to perform correctly

Can we put this to rest already?  How on earth is 1 for 3 mana BETTER than zero for 3 mana????

[Bill Copes]

With only 8 creatures (and 2 Factories) I think Swords can go out.  They are proving to be way too inconsistent, sometimes good and sometimes dead.  Not really what MUD wants imo.

Also if you are going to maindeck LL why would you not maindeck Helm??  Why leave the alternate win sb?  I'm going to say it seems janky though because if you dont see LL opening hand your only chance to cast it is off a Lotus, and thats a pipe dream.  So if you are gonna go that route, you might even put Powders maindeck too.  You will have to ask yourself if thats better than Metalworker+Staff though, Staff can beat Ichorid too.

I agree on the swords.  I'd probably try Sensei's tops in their place (after I test swords).  You don't have shuffle effects, but drawing the best of 3 cards every turn is still pretty good.  Circumvents the top-decking a leyline problem, too.

For the leyline castability problem, I was going to try a couple of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in place of the city of traitors'.  Sometimes city of traitors can inadvertently lock you out of the game if you get stuck with one early, so I almost never play them sans main-deck crucible.

[Neonico]

I just wanted to say that you need at least a 26th mana source, whatever it is, and not a 27th one.
To be honest, i have even one good reason (smokestack aside) to play an artefact that gives 3 mana for 1 instead of an artefact that gives 3 mana for 0, but i wont' argue about this anymore.

LEt me just clarify this :
I think that the correct number of mana source in the deck is more around 26 than 27. It's totally out of question for me to play less than 18 lands, especially in a metagame where other shop decks and fish are heavily played. Now, in the 9 mana artefacts, you have to cutt 1. Mana vault and Black Lotus are the 2 cards i would cutt the first in the deck. As i play CHalice of the void, often for 0, i prefer to keep Mana vault to diversify my casting costs. When i play smokestack, i also prefer Mana vault because it' remains on the board. And let's be honest : With shops, ancient Tomb, city of traitors, moxen, mana crypt and metalworker, there are allmost no difference between vault and lotus in effectiveness. The only spell that you won't be able to play with Vault instead of lotus is a turn 1 triskelion (With shop and Lotus) and a turn 1 Karn (with any 2 mana land + lotus). Now, are those plays the most interesting for a turn 1 with the deck ? No. So being unable to make them isn't a problem for me.

The real choices are just being a permanent or not to optimize Smokestack, and costing 0 or 1 for chalice.

Now, the lotus thread is closed, i understood your arguments, you understood mine, everyone can make his mind about it. But I really find unhonest to say that you can find a reall performance difference between the 2 cards.

[Stormanimagus]

I've updated my list to drop Juggies in favor of MD Helm. I like that adjustment. the updated list is above. I really think that, once this list is refined, it'll be a pretty solid list to take to tournaments. I'm not 100 % sold on the choice of 3 Karn, but I'm not sure what would be better in those slots. Perhaps Crucible MD? Thoughts?

[Bill Copes]

I've updated my list to drop Juggies in favor of MD Helm. I like that adjustment. the updated list is above. I really think that, once this list is refined, it'll be a pretty solid list to take to tournaments. I'm not 100 % sold on the choice of 3 Karn, but I'm not sure what would be better in those slots. Perhaps Crucible MD? Thoughts?

If we're moving the helms into the main, would the serum powders naturally follow suit?

[Stormanimagus]

I've updated my list to drop Juggies in favor of MD Helm. I like that adjustment. the updated list is above. I really think that, once this list is refined, it'll be a pretty solid list to take to tournaments. I'm not 100 % sold on the choice of 3 Karn, but I'm not sure what would be better in those slots. Perhaps Crucible MD? Thoughts?

If we're moving the helms into the main, would the serum powders naturally follow suit?

Perhaps yes. And I've been testing that build. But Helm can work sans Leyline as a way to steal creatures, so I'm not sure it's entirely necessary. But yes, that is a build I've been testing.

[unicoerner]

@Stormimagus: I think your list is pretty interesting and beeing able to beat dredge game 1 (even if they go first) is really great.
How often will we see Ensnaring Bridge? Even if we expect to see it sometimes, a build with 4 Stax which are better in lots of matchups, instead of 4 Leyline+ 4 Helms, will handle the problem.

What i fear more like Bridges are opposing Stax decks including red. Opposing welders really suck, Leylines are helping there aswell, but unfortunately only on 1 Side.

How aggressively are you mulliganing in game 1 into Leyline? If you dont do that aggressively you will end up with 8 dead cards too often.

Is Leyline+1 Helm perhaps a better idea for a BR or 5c Stax build?
Perhaps we should leave the 12 pieces of combo in the side? Imo this clocks the side up too much

[madmanmike25]

Ok, so I have been testing a MUD list without Metalworkers.  I added a few different cards to mix things up and so far I'm pleased with this list:

Creatures:  10
4 Lodestones
4 Trikes
2 Karn

Lock Pieces:  22
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
4 Sphere
3 Crucible
2 Expedition Map
1 Trinisphere

Mana/Lands: 28
9 SoLoMoxenCryptVault
4 Mishras Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine

So far, and to my surprise, this list is working without Metalworker.  I’ll share a few of my findings:

I really didn’t have too much difficulty casting Trikes and Karn.  

Expedition Map is viable in Vintage.  So far I have been happy every time I have activated it.  Great in Shop mirrors to get a leg up mana-wise by fetching Tolarian or Workshop.  Other than that you get Strip Mine for a 1 time cost of 3 mana to kill a land or gg striplock with Crucible.  Map is in place of Top.  It’s a convenient 1 drop.

Rishadan Port has been good too.  It acts as another Sphere effect for sorcery speed spells since you use it on their upkeep.  It works GREAT when you have Tangle or Smoke.  If you have both, let Smoke resolve first then after they sack use Port in response to Tangle to get the maximum benefit.  Another cool thing to do is if you have mana use Port on an untapped land then play a threat to make sure your opponent can’t pay 1 mana to cast FoW under Sphere.  Did I mention it provides mana too?  Am I a masochist for making upkeeps even more complicated on mws?  Probably so.  Too many people are clueless as to what APNAP means. “No I choose, it’s MY upkeep!”  Have fun with that.  I think I might take some lessons in Italian just to explain the stack to certain players.

It was a choice between Factory or Port and I didn’t win many games with the 2 extra damage from Factory.  If games go super long term, then yes Factory is better, but in my opinion if you let it go that far then you probably already lost since they have better topdecks and draw spells.

And btw, Lodestone is crazy good.

Mike

[Twaun007]

Creatures:  10
4 Lodestones
4 Trikes
2 Karn

Lock Pieces:  22
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
4 Sphere
3 Crucible
2 Expedition Map
1 Trinisphere

Mana/Lands: 28
9 SoLoMoxenCryptVault
4 Mishras Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine

 
I have been discussing this with some of my fellow workshop players and this is really confusing me. It seems to that you're taking 50% of a Workshop aggro deck and 50% of a Workshop Prison deck and hopping it adds too 100% of a dominating Workshop deck. The problem is all those add up to a 70% pish posh Workshop deck. Why don't you dedicate your deck to a full blown on aggro strategy or prison strategy?

And btw, Lodestone is crazy good.

I fully agree.

[Bill Copes]

Creatures:  10
4 Lodestones
4 Trikes
2 Karn

Lock Pieces:  22
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
4 Sphere
3 Crucible
2 Expedition Map
1 Trinisphere

Mana/Lands: 28
9 SoLoMoxenCryptVault
4 Mishras Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine

 
I have been discussing this with some of my fellow workshop players and this is really confusing me. It seems to that you're taking 50% of a Workshop aggro deck and 50% of a Workshop Prison deck and hopping it adds too 100% of a dominating Workshop deck. The problem is all those add up to a 70% pish posh Workshop deck. Why don't you dedicate your deck to a full blown on aggro strategy or prison strategy?

And btw, Lodestone is crazy good.

I fully agree.

I've done a little testing with this type of list as well, but more aggro-centric.  A straight-up aggro approach is seemingly be more viable, or at least it's ending games faster than the opponent can find enough resources to cast hurkylls / swing with oath dudes / cast trygon predator / assemble helm + leyline or painter + grindstone.

The list I've been testing has metalworkers and staff combo, but as you've stated previously, they're probably not necessary.

I like your inclusion of Rashidan Port.  I'm going to test those in place of Mishra's Factories, for sure.  I haven't been satisfied with factory since 1996.

Have you tried something like this?:

Creatures:  15
4 Lodestones
4 Juggernauts
4 Trikes
3 Karn

Lock Pieces:  17
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
4 Sphere
4 Thorn
1 Trinisphere

Mana/Lands: 28
9 SoLoMoxenCryptVault
4 Mishras Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine

[madmanmike25]

I have been discussing this with some of my fellow workshop players and this is really confusing me. It seems to that you're taking 50% of a Workshop aggro deck and 50% of a Workshop Prison deck and hopping it adds too 100% of a dominating Workshop deck. The problem is all those add up to a 70% pish posh Workshop deck. Why don't you dedicate your deck to a full blown on aggro strategy or prison strategy?

I don't understand this too clearly.  How is Lodestone not a lockpiece?  I use Trikes to kill permanents all the time, how is he not a lockpiece?  Karn eats moxen and 1-3 cc artifacts with the help of Trikes.  Getting rid of and delaying permanents from coming into play is what I consider "locking my opponent out of the game".  

The fact that my creatures can beat is a bonus to me.  Straight aggro isn't as good imo as a deck that has elements of both.

Would you tell aggro lists to cut Spheres, Tangles, and Chalices and to add in 12 more creatures because they are diluting the aggro strategy?


EDIT:  Yeah Bill, its possible to play MUD and not even run Crucible.  But let me ask you (and others) this:  Would you rather cast Juggernaut on the play or Smokestack?  It really comes down to which is more potent, I know my decision.

[Twaun007]

I have been discussing this with some of my fellow workshop players and this is really confusing me. It seems to that you're taking 50% of a Workshop aggro deck and 50% of a Workshop Prison deck and hopping it adds too 100% of a dominating Workshop deck. The problem is all those add up to a 70% pish posh Workshop deck. Why don't you dedicate your deck to a full blown on aggro strategy or prison strategy?

I don't understand this too clearly.  How is Lodestone not a lockpiece?  I use Trikes to kill permanents all the time, how is he not a lockpiece?  Karn eats moxen and 1-3 cc artifacts with the help of Trikes.  Getting rid of and delaying permanents from coming into play is what I consider "locking my opponent out of the game".  

The fact that my creatures can beat is a bonus to me.  Straight aggro isn't as good imo as a deck that has elements of both.

Would you tell aggro lists to cut Spheres, Tangles, and Chalices and to add in 12 more creatures because they are diluting the aggro strategy?

There's a split between aggro and prison and I believe there are more streamlined ways to beat your opponent via the two. My only concern is your inclusion of Crucible, Smokestack, and Port. I think that there are better ways to investment mana than into those with an aggro strategy. Why would you want to invest a into three mana artifact to recur lands when you could be casting some sort of equipment to negate your opponents life total? I know Wasteland is a powerful affect, but most control decks are running multiple basics.

I believe that the MUD strategy you should focus on beats or prison. The diluting of the both into a single deck is not the strongest strategy. 

[Bill Copes]

EDIT:  Yeah Bill, its possible to play MUD and not even run Crucible.  But let me ask you (and others) this:  Would you rather cast Juggernaut on the play or Smokestack?  It really comes down to which is more potent, I know my decision.

From what I've found, in what granted, was a short-ish testing session (3 hrs), was that against just about every archetype (especially those with confidant as the draw-engine of choice), is that the life total really mattered, and it dropped to 0 very quickly with 8 5/3's in the deck.  I think the question you pose is somewhat of a corner-case, in that with an aggro list, you probably want to play spheres + chalices before your drop juggs on the table.  Hands that have the only possible turn one play of juggernaut aren't worth keeping.  Depending on what deck you're facing, turn 1 juggs might not be the strongest play you could make at all (like Oath or Ichorid).  Beyond the first turn play, every 5/3 you land is a turn less your opponent has to react to your game plan.  Smokestack is a wonderful control card, but it just isn't as fast.

So basically, to answer your question directly, I would rather cast smokestack over juggernaut on the play . . . but I'd also rather cast sphere effects and chalices FIRST over either of those, on the play.