(New Card Discussion)Thada Adel, Acquisitor

[Wagner]

This card only steals vault/crucible etc. if you can pay it´s mana cost.
If you could play the exiled artifact without mana cost it would be obviously awesome for vintage, but this way. Well, first if your opponent holds hurkyl's recall you just tutored them a combo piece.
Secondly, you need to pay the cost, and create an opening for your enemy by tapping out.

I don´t think this card will make it in vintage.

If you're scared of them having H. Recall, just don't play the cards, you will still most likely take away their win conditions in 2 attacks. As for tapping out, you should have more than 2 mana for Vault the turn after you cast a 3 drop.

[BruiZar]

If H.Recall is really your concern, don't play the time vault and leave it exiled, then connect again and remove DSC to leave them with only tezzerets ultimate to win with

edit: didnt see wagners reply on page 2

edit 2: I think this card has some synergy with Vendillion Clique. You can put an artifact back so you can tutor it up or you can remove the mass bounce / tutor from their hand

[AmbivalentDuck]

Why are you imagining this card in some new monstrosity with Vials?

That's a dangerous line of thought.  Vials are *always* under consideration.  Vial strategies have a long history of smashing both Drains and Stax.  The reason they went out of favor is the current necessity of running Null Rod.  If Vaults are sufficiently hated out of the meta, Vial fish answers the 17 Sphere deck that will inevitably see (some) play and has access to nasty combat tricks in the mirror.

[Scyther]

booah... -.-
i think fish is really strong enough already, right?.. =/

[KingoftheScrubs]

I have 2 issues with this card, in descending order:

1.) It's color cost.  Double blue will often cut you off any blue spells until your next turn; this is obviously huge.

2.) Relative to Rootwater Thief, it only takes artifacts.  I guess the idea is that this is a sideboard card, but Rootwater takes Oath's creatures (making Vault/Key worthless) and Storm Combo's win conditions among other things.  Also, aggro-control decks like Fish are tempo decks, they're made to draw out the game and win through their consistency.  Trying to get cute and win through an opponent's Vault/Key is nice but it's not what the decks are built for. 

If you want to win through Vault/Key then play Vault/Key.  Rootwater Thief is more effective at what Fish wants to do in more ways than one. Extract is actually better than BOTH of these cards; Extracting Vault (and/or Key against Tezz-less Vault/Key decks) wins games, and it doesn't require you to wait a turn or cast Time Walk; it also does so for a CMC of 1.

[scifiantihero]

While taking their vault/key is a possible line of play, I think that what people are more excited about is just removing the tinker target and vault, which is probably good-game if it happens.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I have 2 issues with this card, in descending order:

1.) It's color cost.  Double blue will often cut you off any blue spells until your next turn; this is obviously huge.

2.) Relative to Rootwater Thief, it only takes artifacts.  I guess the idea is that this is a sideboard card, but Rootwater takes Oath's creatures (making Vault/Key worthless) and Storm Combo's win conditions among other things.  Also, aggro-control decks like Fish are tempo decks, they're made to draw out the game and win through their consistency.  Trying to get cute and win through an opponent's Vault/Key is nice but it's not what the decks are built for.  

If you want to win through Vault/Key then play Vault/Key.  Rootwater Thief is more effective at what Fish wants to do in more ways than one. Extract is actually better than BOTH of these cards; Extracting Vault (and/or Key against Tezz-less Vault/Key decks) wins games, and it doesn't require you to wait a turn or cast Time Walk; it also does so for a CMC of 1.

-Rootwater Theif costs at least 6 mana to do what Thada does in 3.

-Thada deals double the damage Rootwater does in matchups where the extract effect is useless.

-Thada steals Workshop deck's tools.

-Thada can steal acceleration to power out more fishy lock pieces.

-Thada doesn't get Time Walked by Darkblast.

-Thada can hold off Tezzeret by himself by swinging for 2 and killing him if he tutors Time Vault.

-Thada wins in two swings if necessary by stealing Key+Vault against something like Oath that can run half a dozen win conditions making Rootwater useless.

-Thada's evasion doesn't cost mana.

-Thada doesn't get shut off by chalice@two. This is relevant against Stax, where Rootwater is worse than Tarpan even if he gets cast.

I have no idea how Extract is anything but trade binder fodder. Most decks run 3-4 win conditions already because of hate, shutting off plan A when plans B-D are only slightly worse is a waste of a card in your hand. Sadistic Sacrament would be a more fitting comparisson because it also costs 3 and also wins the game against a lot of the field. Thada is a bit slower but it is also more relevant against a wider range of decks.

Interesting facts according to deckcheck.net:

-Rootwater Thief was last run almost two years ago to eighth place alongside 4xManta Riders and 4xTidal Warriors (wtf?)

-Extract was never run to a top-8

-Sadistic Sacrament that has been in decks taking first and second place in just the last two months

I guess we'll see what Thada does but I hardly think it is even close to Rootwater Thief or Extract.

[theLastGnu]

-Rootwater Theif costs at least 6 mana to do what Thada does in 3.

Two connections should be enough to seal what it's trying to do, so only 4 and a whole turn faster.

-Thada deals double the damage Rootwater does in matchups where the extract effect is useless.

In which case it's still just a gray ogre with evasion

-Thada wins in two swings if necessary by stealing Key+Vault against something like Oath that can run half a dozen win conditions making Rootwater useless.

I still feel like this is a weak play which allows them to just tutor up hurkyl's and laugh at you.

-Thada's evasion doesn't cost mana.

It's also dead against stax, which is one of the reasons Thada Adel is better (crucible hax)

-Rootwater Thief was last run almost two years ago to eighth place alongside 4xManta Riders and 4xTidal Warriors (wtf?)

It was piloted as a 2-of in BUG fish 3 months ago in Columbus.

All that said, I think they're both pretty awful and don't really belong in any optimized deck.

[nineisnoone]

-Rootwater Theif costs at least 6 mana to do what Thada does in 3.

Two connections should be enough to seal what it's trying to do, so only 4 and a whole turn faster.

What Rootwater Thief is trying to do is not the same thing that Thada does.    
And two connections + casting cost is 6 mana.

-Thada deals double the damage Rootwater does in matchups where the extract effect is useless.

In which case it's still just a gray ogre with evasion

There is nothing wrong with a body on the ground.  
A 2/2 is perfectly capable of being a win condition.  It's simply an error to dismiss that.

-Thada wins in two swings if necessary by stealing Key+Vault against something like Oath that can run half a dozen win conditions making Rootwater useless.

I still feel like this is a weak play which allows them to just tutor up hurkyl's and laugh at you.

That'll never work against a competent player.  
You don't have to blindly assemble the combo.

Plus, "tutor up hurkyls"?  What is this instant speed tutor that you speak of that puts it into their hand?  Demonic Consultation?  You can't Mystical in response, since they'll never draw it.  Sorcery speed tutors would be pointless, as would Intuition or Gifts.  If you steal their Vault, and you know they have to tutor THAT turn not the turn you steal their Key.  So unless if they happen to have that 1 card, you'll likely see it coming.  And if you do see it coming, then just steal their Key and don't play it.  

It's possible they could Mystical and then cast a draw spell, but there are only so many instant speed draws plays since decks are more Dark Confidant reliant, Brainstorm, Recall, Thirst, Repeal, and Top usuall. So their options are 1) just happen to have it in hand and 2) Mystical + Draw to get it into hand.  People are waaay overstating this fear.

-Thada's evasion doesn't cost mana.

It's also dead against stax, which is one of the reasons Thada Adel is better (crucible hax)

I'm guessing you meant Rootwater there.  

It's not dead against Stax.  If it's a non-aggro build, it doesn't matter that it doesn't have evasion since it's entirely possible that there won't be any blockers anyways.  If they don't run Rod, steal Moxen.  If they do run Rod steal a Crucible (though that'd be a difficult play admittedly since they'd be running Rod).  

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

-Thada's evasion doesn't cost mana.

It's also dead against stax, which is one of the reasons Thada Adel is better (crucible hax)

-Rootwater Thief was last run almost two years ago to eighth place alongside 4xManta Riders and 4xTidal Warriors (wtf?)

It was piloted as a 2-of in BUG fish 3 months ago in Columbus.

All that said, I think they're both pretty awful and don't really belong in any optimized deck.

I'm pretty sure that nineisnoone covered his points excellently but these last two I would like to talk about. First of all Thada's evasion is relevant against Fish not Stax. When you have a standoff with big guys like goyf, the ability to deal unblockable damage can win mirrors. As I've stated before, it is a ridiculous bomb against Workshops in its own way simply because if they don't have a blocker they'll probably lose. You can always run bounce and creature destruction if not at least Fire/Ice to tap it and get connections in. Any card that can beat Tezz+Shops(+Key/Vault Oath) in 2 attacks is A+ in my book.

As for the second thing I said "according to deckcheck.net." I know that it doesn't cover all tournaments but my point stands that in general it is essentially off the radar in top-8s. I would love to be proved wrong because in my opinion Thada is a strictly better card, so if Rootwater sees play it almost certainly will as well.

[Wagner]

-Thada wins in two swings if necessary by stealing Key+Vault against something like Oath that can run half a dozen win conditions making Rootwater useless.
I still feel like this is a weak play which allows them to just tutor up hurkyl's and laugh at you.

I agree that this makes no sense at all. Even if there are instant draw and they do play H. Recall, you just SEARCHED their deck, you should have a pretty good idea of what they have in hand. If they have 3-5 mana open and you don't see H. Recall or Brainstorm or Thirst in their deck, then you can be wary, otherwise there is no reason to panic. Any good player will look at the deck when searching.

[theLastGnu]

Alright, I concede the hurkyl's point. Also, I had thought thief was a free extract on connection.

I still think this card is pretty mediocre and will be played for novelty for a month or two before being relegated to the trade binders, where it belongs.

[Cyberpunker]

Thada would be a 4 of. Island walk and the ability to steal Infinite turns is just too good to pass up.

That being said, the Rebuild plan is solid. But Thada is still very good because Tezzeret only runs 1-2 Rebuilds maindeck. And now that you steal their combo pieces, they have to try to find the 2 cards or else they lose.

It is the same idea with running Tinker + Robot. Yes they have Rebuild, but who cares? If they do run it, its a 1-2 of. And there is a very good chance they do not have a Rebuild once you get Thada online. And if they do, you have counterspells for them.


And when they do find Rebuild. Who is to say that Fish lets them resolve it?
You are in trouble if they resolve Rebuild though. Then you have to RACE RACE RACE or get more counterspells.


This is too much pressure if Fish can sneak it pass Tezzeret.

Unless Tezzeret decks evolve into even more Maindeck removal.

[credmond]

I think this card could very well wind up being the jitte of sorts for vintage, at least for those decks that can support blue.

Tezzeret can pack this almost as effectively as fish can, and its legendary status makes it an effective counter strategy to the opponent's Thada.

And, on top of it usually being able to seal up the game in two hits or less, the ability to peak at an opponent's entire library and figure out his or her remaining strategic lines of play and more or less the contents of his or her hand should not be underestimated.

[scifiantihero]

I was talking about this card with my brother last night, and I said that I would be less surprised to see this card show up more in the Tezz mirror than in fish decks.

I guess time and testing will tell if it's any good!

(I'd love to play merfolk in vintage!)

[BruiZar]

I think this card could very well wind up being the jitte of sorts for vintage, at least for those decks that can support blue.

Tezzeret can pack this almost as effectively as fish can, and its legendary status makes it an effective counter strategy to the opponent's Thada.

And, on top of it usually being able to seal up the game in two hits or less, the ability to peak at an opponent's entire library and figure out his or her remaining strategic lines of play and more or less the contents of his or her hand should not be underestimated.

i believe your analysis of this card is the most correct one I've read so far. I absolutely agree that it could serve as the Jitte for Vintage.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I can't wait to play sower to steal a thada to steal someone's timevault key!

[jewfro]

I think the best card this can be compared to is cold-eyed selkie. Costs 3, and has a really strong effect when it connects. This is of course probably better as it nabs win cons out of tez and has the potential to combo off with time vault. I'd say this is probably a strong sideboard option, and mainboard if the meta is tez heavy.

[PsychoCid]

I play Fish and intend to test these as a sideboard option.

I don't expect a huge swing in win percentage anywhere across the spectrum based on the 3cmc, double blue eating cost.  I agree with the sentiment that this may fill much of the same role as an exalted Selkie but creating a more decisive advantage.  Much like Selkie, she can all but seal a game, however it can be difficult to get (or keep) her in play.  She needs to pair with turn 1 Noble to be truly fearsome.  Turn 1 Noble shuts off half of my counters but by game two I will have a grip on who is the beatdown and some knowledge on whether turn 1 Noble was the correct play.

I'm not terribly optimistic about using her against Workshop fueled decks as I expect that without express board development and some well placed counters, I could easily be on the losing end of the manabase battle.  I have cheaper artifact sweepers and, being a tempo deck, am clearly more concerned with what is currently on the board than what my opponent could be drawing several turns from now.

[TheShop]

I'm not sure that I would want to play the stolen vault...because then they can bounce it back to their hands(they are still the owner right?).  Anyway, in hand means safely hidden from this guy again.

I agree with the disrupt, not clock school of thought...control until he drops, then I would permanently steal combo pieces by not replaying them if possible.  Once tinker targets and combo pieces are gone, then steal mana-trinkets.


Edit: this guy makes me want to build MUC again, he would look good grabbing moxes to pay for Remora or hiding behind a solid wall of counterspells while neutering opposing combo

[homeboyjohn_96]

It belongs in a hate deck, and the name is an anagram of Hate A Lad.

actually the FULL name anagrams to " laid a hate card so quit "  which is also much funnier

also i have no life..................

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

But guys, why are you all still coming up with that hurkyl's rebuild stuff?
1. You search the library: Are the bounces + vault there? okay. --> you may play that key. Unless you're really coward.
2. search it again: Is there any possibility that they have an artifact bounce in hand now? If no, play that vault and win, otherwise extract only...

Against decks without vault/key: are you afraid of that mass artifact bounce against that stolen Lotus?

[OmniStrife_101]

Besides, come to think of it, how many mass artifact bounce spells does a typical deck have?  one? two? or even three?  You can already infer what the player holds in his hand when you steal artifacts via Thada right?  So, you may already have an idea on whether to go for the stolen Vault Key kill, or just Extract it from their deck.  IMHO

[Tha Gunslinga]

You can already infer what the player holds in his hand when you steal artifacts via Thada right? 

No, you can't.  You can't spend enough time sorting out their deck to determine what's in their hand.  This is called slow play.

[OmniStrife_101]

Not exactly if you do it without the intention of writing everthing in your opponents deck.  Remember, you get to search your opponents deck for a particular artifact card ( not a specific card ) so without taking much time, you will have more or less an idea of what your opponent is holding based on the cards in his/her library.  

So you can have at least more than 50% chance success of stealing your opponents Time Vault/ Voltaic key and using them against your opponent by just being observant of the cards you happen to see while searching in your opponents library.

I still have to be convinced that this is slow play.  Sorry for the OT.  

But hey, it depends on yourself, if you see your opponent is doing so and you believe that is slow play, then time to raise those hands for a judge. 

Definition of Slow Play
Players who take longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions are engaging in Slow Play. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Cheating — Stalling.
Examples
A. A player repeatedly reviews his opponent’s graveyard without any significant change in game state.
B. A player spends time writing down the contents of an opponent's deck while resolving Thought Hemorrhage.
C. After 3 minutes into a round at a Pro Tour™ Qualifier, a player has not completed his shuffling.
D. A player gets up from his seat to look at standings, or goes to the bathroom without permission of an official.

[Purple Hat]

I was under the impression you got about a minute to resolve a deck search.  If, prior to attacking you wrote down:
force of will
mana drain
chain of vapor
hurkyls recall

and then filled in numbers next to them as you searched would that constitute slow play?  If not you could write down 3 or 4 common card names each attack and pretty soon you'd have an idea of what they had in hand.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

You can already infer what the player holds in his hand when you steal artifacts via Thada right? 

No, you can't.  You can't spend enough time sorting out their deck to determine what's in their hand.  This is called slow play.

Well honestly there are only a few key cards that you'll really care about: game ending bombs (Gifts/Yawgmoth's Bargain/etc.), tutors (4-5 cards), and bounce spells(probably 2-4). If you're quick you can probably reasonably take an extra look or two for automatic 4-ofs (FoW/Oath come to mind). How fast can it really take the average person to look through a deck (considering you can largely ignore mana sources and draw spells) for about a dozen key cards? I would like to think I could sort out all the diamonds out in a standard deck of playing cards without being called unreasonably slow.

If I'm at a point in the game where I'm connecting with Thada and thinking about casting their Key/Vault there are not too many cards left in their deck that I'll really care about. I mean odds are I'm winning next turn. There aren't too many cards even in Vintage that can win this turn just by resolving by themselves and it isn't rocket science to pinpoint them based on the archetype. The exception to this rule is probably in a Fish mirror where pretty much everything is a threat and Thada doesn't singlehandedly win games in two swings anymore.

Of course if you meant literally knowing exactly what they have in their hand right down to mana sources and random draw spells like TfK or Dark Confidant then I suppose you are correct, you would probably be called for slow play trying to accomplish this feat.

I was under the impression you got about a minute to resolve a deck search.  If, prior to attacking you wrote down:
force of will
mana drain
chain of vapor
hurkyls recall

and then filled in numbers next to them as you searched would that constitute slow play?  If not you could write down 3 or 4 common card names each attack and pretty soon you'd have an idea of what they had in hand.

You would probably be better off very quickly skimming the deck looking for one playset at a time rather than writing things down as you slowly pass them. Then again I don't think FoW or Mana Drain are exactly high priority once you've already resolved your biggest threat. Keep in mind that you don't need to cast Key/Vault and probably shouldn't against Tezz. Rather just RFG their robot and vault. I seriously doubt they'll outplay you to the point where you lose to Confidant beats with an aggro deck, and Tezzeret himself is combat phase food.

[xouman]

Last saturday I played in a 51 people tournament. I brought a merfolks+faeries deck with 1 Thada (a friend already had one and lend me). I could play only Thada once.

My opponent started G2 with forest,lotus (for UUU in his second main phase) and cast a tarmogoyf. I could drop a Thada in turn 3 but he was beating me. I tried to play a lord but it was countered. I attacked with Thada being at 10 against a 4/5 tarmo and only Thada in play. So what could I do?

I looked at his deck and saw at least 4 bouncers and a couple of tutors. I had already 4 mana so sapphire wouldn't be really needed. I had to go for vault so I did. My opp didn't counter it, and next turn he played vampiric... for another tarmo!!! Clearly he didn't expect me to steal his combo, but if I would have a counter, i could steal his combo easily. Next turn I stealed his key and gg.

I would play 2-3 Thada maindeck without any doubt.

[evouga]

Last saturday I played in a 51 people tournament. I brought a merfolks+faeries deck with 1 Thada (a friend already had one and lend me). I could play only Thada once.

My opponent started G2 with forest,lotus (for UUU in his second main phase) and cast a tarmogoyf. I could drop a Thada in turn 3 but he was beating me. I tried to play a lord but it was countered. I attacked with Thada being at 10 against a 4/5 tarmo and only Thada in play. So what could I do?

I looked at his deck and saw at least 4 bouncers and a couple of tutors. I had already 4 mana so sapphire wouldn't be really needed. I had to go for vault so I did. My opp didn't counter it, and next turn he played vampiric... for another tarmo!!! Clearly he didn't expect me to steal his combo, but if I would have a counter, i could steal his combo easily. Next turn I stealed his key and gg.

I would play 2-3 Thada maindeck without any doubt.

One opponent making a serious mistake doesn't say anything about the strength of the card...

[policehq]

One opponent making a serious mistake doesn't say anything about the strength of the card...

Worst case scenario in this situation is the opponent uses Vampiric Tutor for Hurkyl's Recall, which is completely useless unless you play the win conditions you removed from their deck...

So, they can't get infinite turns on you, you're a Duress/Thoughtseize/counter-war away from having infinite turns yourself, and their Vampiric Tutor is used on something sub-par = Thada is not strong?