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meadbert
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« on: March 08, 2010, 10:23:54 am » |
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Turn 1. Land, Steppe Lynx. Turn 2. Enlightened Tutor on upkeep for Fastbond. Land, Fastbond, drop and bounce Oboro, Palace in the Clouds 10 times and swing for 21.
The Oboro trick also works with 2xPetrified Field or with Trade Routes.
Plated Geopede can work as a Steppe Lynx.
Glacial Chasm allows for inifinite land drops so Vinelasher Kudzu, Horn of Greed and Crucible all become interesting. Chasm prevents Lynx from swinging.
Lotus Cobra allows for a lot of mana without Chasm and infinite mana with Chasm.
Academy + 2x Artifacts allows for a lot of mana withoutt Chasm and infinite with.
Finally Library of Alexandria if you already have 7 cards allows for massive draw, if you can keep playing cards.
The trouble with Lynx and Geopede is they do not have haste so you must wait a turn after you play them to win. This makes Darkblast scary.
The other problem is that this is a 3 card combo sort of like Worldgorger Dragon. I have not been able to come up with a solid list, yet but this little combo does have some advantages. That both cards (Fastbond + Lynx) only costs 1 mana each is nice. Each is good on its own. The graveyard need not be used. Lynx, Geopede or Kudzu can beat for a win on their own.
So far every list I have tested ends up with consistency issues. I then end up pulling out all the control and in the end I have a sort of slow combo deck that still has consistency issues and not enough disruption.
Any ideas?
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Cyberpunker
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I just gotta topdeck better than you ^_^.
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2010, 02:15:26 pm » |
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Nice combo work! I cannot think of a way to abuse it effectively right now though. But will keep this in mind in the future. (Works in my casual deck though!!!)
But I think that since Fastbond is restricted, everything will hinge on whether you can resolve it or not. Just like Time Vault (except there is no Tezzeret and Tinker for syngergy).
So maybe you need some counterspells to help you force Fastbond through in addtion to Lim Dul's Vault/Enlightened Tutoring Fastbond? How does Pact of Negation sound to you?
Example case: you don't cast Fastbond until you can attack with your Lynx/Geopede and then Pact and Force whatever they have for you.
EDIT:
As for consistency issues... you have 8 Creatures and 12 lands which you only need 1 of each to combo out. The main key here is resolving the Fastbond.
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 02:27:49 pm by kooaznboi1088 »
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Tempus
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 02:27:31 pm » |
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http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=12282nd on the tourney. If you add berserk to the mix it can kill 2nd turn, with a lot of luck... (savannah, fetch, lynx, cropper, berserk does the trick). The guy raced a inkwell leviathan with lynx.
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meadbert
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2010, 03:14:05 pm » |
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http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=12282nd on the tourney. If you add berserk to the mix it can kill 2nd turn, with a lot of luck... (savannah, fetch, lynx, cropper, berserk does the trick). The guy raced a inkwell leviathan with lynx. I have a casual legacy list that gets turn 2 wins with Lynx. Turn 1 Land, Lynx. Turn 2 Fetch, 2xBerserk. Or Turn 1 Land, Exploration, Land, Lynx. Turn 2 Fetch, Fetch, Equip, Berserk. In type 1 we have Fastbond and I am wondering if that can lead to viable list that abuses Lynx. EDIT: By the way Pact is a good idea. The issue is getting cards to show up in the right ratios. I get too many hands where I have 2 combo pieces, but I am missing the third.
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 03:18:25 pm by meadbert »
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TopSecret
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2010, 03:18:16 pm » |
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As you listed, the combo is three cards for infinite damage.
So to assemble this combo, a player has to get:
Lynx or Geopede (or Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal)
+
Enlightened Tutor or Fastbond (or Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal)
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Oboro or Crop Rotation or (Crucible + Fetchland or Wasteland/Stripmine) (or Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal)
This is a lot of deckspace taken up for a combo that is not necessarily better than Vault/Key or any other two card kill.
Therefore I think focus should be put on finding an adequate deck that plays well with Steppe Lynx, Enlightened Tutor/Fastbond, and (maybe) Crop Rotation/Oboro without resolving the combo (like how Bomberman didn't always need the infinite combo, but topdecking it randomly and forcing to opponent to play around it while having a solid deck without it was strong).
I am not sure Oboro is even really necessary, since once you have Lynx + Fastbond that could be enough to win if it is helped by disruption/other damage.
So I think this combo should be treated as Steppe Lynx + Fastbond/Enlightened Tutor, and then if there is room for Oboro and/or Crucible, then that is just gravy.
I do not know of the best shell for such a deck, but when I was originally pondering landfall, I came up with this concept:
4 Steppe Lynx 4 Plated Geopede
(maybe a fastbond) (maybe 4 Lotus Cobra or some Tarmogoyfs) (maybe path to exile) (maybe Null Rod) (maybe Tabernacle)
4 Crop Rotation 4 Raze 4 Boom/Bust
4 Wasteland (maybe less than 4) 1 Strip Mine
4 Flagstones of Trokair 4 Windswept Heath (or whatever fetches end up the strongest) 4 Wooded Foothills x Corresponding Duals
The idea was that the strong clock of Lynx and Geopede backed by land kill would probably kill people.
So using that as a shell:
4 Steppe Lynx 4 Plated Geopede
1 Fastbond 4 Enlightened Tutor 1 (or more) Null Rod 1 (or more) Crucible
Optional for splashing Black:
4 Lotus Cobra 4 Dark Confidant 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Imperial Seal
4 Crop Rotation 4 Raze 4 Boom/Bust
4 Wasteland (maybe less than 4) 1 Strip Mine
4 Flagstones of Trokair 4 Windswept Heath 4 Wooded Foothills (probably not an Oboro) x Corresponding Duals
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Ball and Chain
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meadbert
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2010, 03:31:20 pm » |
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In the above list I do not see much use for Lotus Cobra.
I would think that at least Oboro would be worth it since it can be Crop Rotationed for.
I also wonder if blue splash for Recall, Walk and maybe Trade Routes would make sense.
Dark Confidant is great for card draw and will not lose much life, but if he loses 10 life he messes up the combo.
I am going to test a bit.
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TopSecret
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2010, 05:06:07 pm » |
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I listed Lotus Cobra with the idea that in the early game he could accelerate mana denial + creatures and help play the extra cards off Confidant. Plus, if a fetch can be played in the same turn, Lotus Cobra is a free 2 power creature. Also, with black added, Lotus Cobra could help smooth out colors. But I have no idea if he is any good.
(Warning: Lists of random interactions ahead.)
Also, I just realized that Azorius AEthermage combos with Oboro and Trade Routes. Azorius AEthermage + Fastbond + Lotus Cobra + Trade Routes = drawing a lot of cards. Horn of Greed is probably way better in almost every case, and I can't think of an application of AEthermage that isn't terrible off the top of my head, but I'm just listing this here in case it becomes relevant. (Pitches to Force!)
Also, City of Traitors + Trade Routes + Fastbond nets mana (same is true with Academy, but City of Traitors doesn't require having artifacts out. Serra's Sanctum also works in this scenario since Trade Routes + Fastbond = two enchantments. In any build with lots of creatures, Gaea's Cradle works with two or more creatures in play.).
Oboro Breezecaller functions similarly to Oboro and Trade routes with it's strength being it can generate mana with any land that taps for a lot of mana or has an effect (Maze of Ith, Library of Alexandria, Bazaar of Bagdad).
Also, are Halimar Depths or Teetering Peaks with Trade Routes worth consideration since they can be returned with Trade Routes?
Would adding Street Wraith, Manamorphose, Explore, Repeal (on moxes), and Halimar Depths + fetches be helpful at all in thinning the deck out to help draw a combo? In a build with Explore, Repeal, and Manamorphose Yawgmoth's Will becomes a bomb.
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 05:14:43 pm by TopSecret »
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FlyFlySideOfFry
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2010, 05:16:13 pm » |
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meadbert: king of the random cool combo  In my opinion the basic shell should be: 4 Steppe Lynx 4 Plated Geopede 1 Fastbond 1 Crucible 4 Enlightened Tutor 4 Crop Rotation 1 Oboro 1 Strip Mine From that point on you probably only have three options: black, blue, or Exploration. Blue gives you Recall, Walk, draw spells, counterspells, and Intuition. Black gives you the tutors, discard, and Confidant. Keeping the deck three colors will make sure you're screwed less often but makes it harder to get Fastbond. I would probably run Berserk in three colors because with Exploration you don't need to go infinite, just going fetch->land->fetch->land->berserk gives you 16-18 damage, let alone with a Crop Rotation. As a three color deck I would definitely try to go stompy style with maybe some burn spells to finish the job since your only real disruption will be Null Rod and some Seals probably, which won't stall for long. In any case I would probably try to stray from being a pure combo deck and try to bomberman it like was said earlier. With cards like Crop Rotation you can easily pump out massive amounts of damage without needing to go infinite. I think this would solve a lot of your consistancy issues. Hell with 4 Enlightened Tutors+blue or black you could probably even slap in Key/Vault.
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Mickey Mouse is on a Magic card. Your argument is invalid.
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Thegreatgonzo
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2010, 05:43:30 pm » |
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Since this combo is about four of, (except for fastbond, wich is a delayed 5/7 of, thanks to tutors), could serum powder be used to increase your chances of finding a turn 2 kill? It works for 2 card Monte, so it might work for this. Of course, you won't have the sheer brokeness of power+shops.deck, but the fish matchup must be quite insane with lynx and geopede maindeck.
Or maybe we should'nt focus too much on the combo, and rather have a good aggro deck with the famous "oops, I win" factor inside, suicide dephts style.
i'll try to work on a list, see you within a few hours (or tomorrow, it's almost midnight here in belgium)
thx for reading
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He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
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meadbert
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2010, 05:56:26 pm » |
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Regarding Top Secret's ideas. I had not thought of Sanctum and City of Traitors. That does make Trade Routes better. If we move towards more of a blue shell then I suspect that Ancestral Knowledge becomes solid since it be Argivian Finded out or Enlighten Tutored for and should be reallly good for finding missing combo pieces. A remaining question is what to do with infinite mana. One option would be to run 3-4 Cunning Wish and Intuitions. There is a slight problem here in that while the ammount of colorless mana, there is not infinite on color mana and to win with Intuition we would need to Intuition for 3 Wishes and then Wish up a win condition and play that so we still need 3 blue. Finally mana is not actually infinite unless Glacial Chasm is out.
Halimar Depths is good in general, but does not draw. It only looks at the top 3 cards so playing it repeatedly is not helpful. The Red land is better since it can pump a creature, but at some point you run out of life. If you use Red Land + Traitors then you lose as much life as you pump your creature by.
If I stick to R/G/W then it is tempting to do something like maindeck Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation and then go to a Cropper/Bazaar/Squee/Loam engine. That always failed before, but having access to a yardless combo could be the key.
My problem comes back to Crop Rotation which screws me over whenever it is countered.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2010, 06:40:30 pm » |
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Xantid Swarm, Abeyance, Silence, Orims Chant can help with that.
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TopSecret
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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2010, 08:30:01 pm » |
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My problem comes back to Crop Rotation which screws me over whenever it is countered.
Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map, black tutors, and Knight of the Reliquary + white or green duals are the best land tutors I can think of. None of them are particularly good unless the land you are getting really kicks ass. Living Wish gets a Lynx or a land. I don't know how much Flagstones of Trokair helps address the Crop Rotation problem. The alternative is to not play Crop Rotation and just play a redundant amount of whatever lands are needed to win and/or more overall tutor/filter effects that are general purpose. If the key to the combo is Fastbond + Lynx, then dropping Crop Rotation shouldn't be too bad since neither of those are lands. Infinite colorless mana can be used to kill with Trade Routes + Kabira Crossroads + Piranha Marsh for infinite life + infinite damage. I haven't done to math to calculate this, but does Trade Routes + Infinite green mana + Life from the Loam effectively draw out one's deck? Also, this is kind of random, but two Amulet of Vigor + Trade Routes + any come into play tapped land is infinite mana. In a build with Amulet of Vigor and manlands, infinite differently colored mana could be spent pumping manlands into creatures. Raging Ravine and Lavaclaw Reaches can become infinitely large with the correct color of mana once having gone infinite. Also, if you can start looping with Wasteland and Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, that makes a lot of dudes. Gods' Eye also makes a 1/1 when it is sacked to Crop Rotation, which is just awful. Unless you have a Diabolic Intent in hand or if you need a guy to pump with recurred Teetering Peaks. Also, going with the Xantid Swarm idea, Swarm can be pumped by either Teetering Peaks (or sacked to Diabolic Intent). Same thing with Vexing Shusher (except he doesn't fly and I don't think he can make Diabolic Intent uncounterable). Dryad Arbor can be a creature and is a land at the same time. ACADEMY RECTOR?! Bazaar + Dread Return + Academy Rector + Cabal Therapy = Now you're playing with POWER! (I apologize in advance. I have an awful, awful fever right now.) Also, the first place deck in this tournament played the Oboro combo: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40089.0
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 08:46:19 pm by TopSecret »
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Ball and Chain
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2010, 09:08:29 pm » |
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Isn't tireless tribe / about face just better?
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TopSecret
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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2010, 09:25:42 pm » |
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Isn't tireless tribe / about face just better?
Tireless Tribe and About Face or not good alone in the majority of situations. Also, using the combo requires having 5 cards in hand and if Tireless Tribe is intercepted by removal or a blocker, that is probably game over since five cards were just pitched. If a deck could be constructed that didn't go all in on it in a suicidal manner or didn't care if their hand was ditched (mana ichorid?), then it might be ok. Lynx and Fastbond are both decent on their own. Oboro is not dead, since it taps for blue. Whether or not a deck playing these cards can be competitive has yet to be seen.
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Ball and Chain
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meadbert
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« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2010, 09:47:25 pm » |
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So the Cropper/Squee/Loam/Bazaar engine failed for the same reason it always does. Force on Cropper was too painful. The deck is not fast enough to justify Xantid.
The version that is working best so far is:
2 Misty Rainforest 2 Flooded Strand 2 Windswept Heath 1 Tropical Island 1 Tundra 4 Savannah 4 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 4 Null Rod
4 Trade Routes 1 Time Walk 2 Perilous Research 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 1 Mystical Tutor 4 Stifle
1 Fastbond 4 Vinelasher Kudzu 4 Life from the Loam
4 Steppe Lynx 4 Enlightened Tutor
This has the oops I win factor.
The Stifle/Waste/Strip/Rod/Loam engine is decent mana denial.
Kudzu and Lynx can be pretty quick beats if you just go aggro.
Trade Routes/Loam/Research are good in a long game.
Research is better that it might seem since you can sacrifice Moxen with Rod out and Sacrifice unneeded lands. If you have an extra Rod or Trade Routes that can be sacrificed and you can sacrifice any permanent in response to Removal so for instance if Fastbond/Rod is Nature's Claimed you can Research it out in response.
I did not use any basics since Stifle can counter Waste activations and Perilous Research can sacrifice the land in response.
I am not sure this is type 1 viable, but it is closer than anything else.
As usual I ran lots of 4ofs to start with. Oboro and Trade Routes would be strong candidats to dropping to 3 ofs. Rod should stay a 4of as should Loam.
Probably some maindeck removal is needed.
I could not get blue quite high enough for Force.
EDIT: I have not tested Weathered Wayfarer yet, but I wonder if that would work out. Basically Trade Routes and Oboro can bounce lands to reduce your land count and tutoring up Strip Mine in this deck is solid. Also you can play games where you activate a fetch and with that on the stack you can activate Wayfare.
EDIT #2: Preliminary testing indicates Wayfarer may actually be better than Stifle. The solution may be to drop an Oboro and maybe 2 Stifles to get 3 Wayfarers. Not sure yet.
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 10:13:49 pm by meadbert »
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2010, 09:51:56 pm » |
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Tireless Tribe and About Face or not good alone in the majority of situations.
Also, using the combo requires having 5 cards in hand and if Tireless Tribe is intercepted by removal or a blocker, that is probably game over since five cards were just pitched.
If a deck could be constructed that didn't go all in on it in a suicidal manner or didn't care if their hand was ditched (mana ichorid?), then it might be ok.
Lynx and Fastbond are both decent on their own. Oboro is not dead, since it taps for blue. Whether or not a deck playing these cards can be competitive has yet to be seen.
Fastbond really isn't a good card. It is also restricted. And top deck tutors are just awful Obviously you aren't going to dump cards if a blocker is declared. Also tribe can auto defend against problem removal (darkblast) but lynx can't. About face is removal for noble hierarch! But that is irrelevant. Yes the combo is bad. But so is a three card combo that requires the combat step.
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meadbert
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2010, 10:56:15 pm » |
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Fastbond really isn't a good card. It is also restricted.
Fastbond is a good card. It last won a World Championships in 2007. It last won a tournament yesterday. And top deck tutors are just awful
Certainly Mystical and Vamp are not awful. Seal sees a lot of play and Enlightned Tutor has seen play. Enlightened Tutor was in the top 8 of the most recent World's in Donovan G/W fish and it most recently won a tournament yesterday. Also tribe can auto defend against problem removal (darkblast) but lynx can't.
To be fair, you only need to leave a fetchland uncracked to defend Lynx from Darkblast. My suspicion is that Top Secret was more worried about Chain of Vapor.
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TopSecret
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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2010, 11:09:03 pm » |
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It might be too difficult to cast, but Dizzy Spell can find Fastbond, Ancestral, and other things.
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Ball and Chain
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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2010, 11:15:13 pm » |
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would a crucible of worlds not make sense in that list, also could the original gush turbo land shell be somewhat integrated into this,
something like this, would be a rough idea. 4 Misty Rainforest 4 Tropical Island 1 island 4 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland 1 polluted delta 2 underground sea 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 1 yawgmoth's will 4 force of will 1 Time Walk 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 1 Mystical Tutor 1 demonic tutor 1 vampiric tutor 1 Fastbond 4 Vinelasher Kudzu 1 Life from the Loam 1 gush 1 windfall 4 nostalgic dreams 1 regrowth 2 cruicible of worlds 4 soratami seer 4 intuition 1 imperial seal
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He traded goats for artifacts, artifacts for cards, cards for life. In the end, he traded life for goats.
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2010, 11:15:26 pm » |
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Fastbond is a good card. It last won a World Championships in 2007.
Really? OK fastbond isn't good without 4x gush. ...and unrestricted top deck tutors are bad, because they can't get cards broken enough to offset the loss of a card. my point is that the combo is bad. and I'm not even trying to be a hater its just obvious.
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meadbert
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« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2010, 11:25:40 pm » |
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It might be too difficult to cast, but Dizzy Spell can find Fastbond, Ancestral, and other things.
Excellent idea. Lets not forget that it finds Steppe Lynx and possibly a token Cropper would make sense. That way it gets all 3 combo pieces. I already love it! EDIT: Along the same lines as Dizzy Spell there is also Wargate. If we find room for Forces Wargate pitches to Force. Wargate puts Fastbond into play for 4, same as Dizzy Spell and it puts Strip Mine into play for 3!
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 11:59:31 pm by meadbert »
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meadbert
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« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2010, 11:31:30 pm » |
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Fastbond is a good card. It last won a World Championships in 2007.
Really? OK fastbond isn't good without 4x gush. But it still won a tournament yesterday with 0xGush. Perhaps you underestimate it? ...and unrestricted top deck tutors are bad, because they can't get cards broken enough to offset the loss of a card.
Broken enough like Black Lotus?
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meadbert
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« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2010, 11:39:56 pm » |
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would a crucible of worlds not make sense in that list, also could the original gush turbo land shell be somewhat integrated into this,
something like this, would be a rough idea. 4 Misty Rainforest 4 Tropical Island 1 island 4 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland 1 polluted delta 2 underground sea 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 1 yawgmoth's will 4 force of will 1 Time Walk 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 1 Mystical Tutor 1 demonic tutor 1 vampiric tutor 1 Fastbond 4 Vinelasher Kudzu 1 Life from the Loam 1 gush 1 windfall 4 nostalgic dreams 1 regrowth 2 cruicible of worlds 4 soratami seer 4 intuition 1 imperial seal
Fathom Seer might be better than Soratami Seer. Nostalgic Dreams seems like it combos pretty well with Life from the Loam and Intuition. This is an interesting list. Some concerns are that there only 8 cards that become Island which does not support Gush. Their is a fairly high reliance on the yard. This is not bad preboard and post board the Dreams can always come out. I will definitely play around with this. I will probably either drop Gush, or add enough lands to support Gush and then run Fathom Seer too. If you are running 5 cc spells like Seer, perhaps Meloku would be better. Also there is Future Sight or Magus of the Future which are pretty busted with Fastbond out. Since there are no Rods, Sensei's top is also an option.
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2010, 12:04:07 am » |
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...and unrestricted top deck tutors are bad, because they can't get cards broken enough to offset the loss of a card.
Broken enough like Black Lotus? I would argue yes. What are you doing when you enlightened tutor for lotus? You are spending 2 cards and 1w to get 3x mana of any color at sorcery speed. Despite the filtering, that is still the worst ritual ever. As for fastbond, saying it was in a winning deck means nothing. Well, next to nothing. In a format like vintage, the cards are so powerful you can put a singleton of anything in your deck and still win. Vomiting a bunch of lands into play is nice, but in this format there is just better acceleration. The original argument was that the card wasn't dead, which is true. But I don't think the effect is really that powerful, in fact overestimated most of the time. I'll admit saying the card is awful is an overstatement.
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Suicideking
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« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2010, 12:19:17 am » |
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no lynxs but conley woods won a tourney with this and it has some of the same ideas.
Conley Woods 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 1 Lotus Petal 3 Crop Rotation 4 Force of Will 2 Spell Pierce 4 Counterbalance 1 Fastbond 4 Vinelasher Kudzu 4 Cold-Eyed Selkie 1 Trinket Mage 2 Enlightened Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Brainstorm 2 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Tinker 1 Inkwell Leviathan 1 Crucible of Worlds 1 Aether Spellbond 1 Ancestral Recall 1 TIme Walk 4 Misty Rainforest 2 Flooded Strand 2 Windswept Heath 2 Tropical Island 1 Savannah 1 Tundra 2 Island 1 Forest 1 Horizon Conopy 1 Halimar Depths 1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds 1 Bojuka Bog 1 Strip Mine 1 Pendlehaven
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meadbert
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« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2010, 03:47:16 am » |
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...and unrestricted top deck tutors are bad, because they can't get cards broken enough to offset the loss of a card.
Broken enough like Black Lotus? I would argue yes. What are you doing when you enlightened tutor for lotus? You are spending 2 cards and 1w to get 3x mana of any color at sorcery speed. Despite the filtering, that is still the worst ritual ever. As for fastbond, saying it was in a winning deck means nothing. Well, next to nothing. In a format like vintage, the cards are so powerful you can put a singleton of anything in your deck and still win. Vomiting a bunch of lands into play is nice, but in this format there is just better acceleration. The original argument was that the card wasn't dead, which is true. But I don't think the effect is really that powerful, in fact overestimated most of the time. I'll admit saying the card is awful is an overstatement. Would Black Lotus be an example of "better acceleration?" Would it in fact be the best acceleration? If so would tutoring for Lotus make sense? Would it still make sense if rather than Demonic Tutoring for Lotus you instead used Trinket Mage or Grim Tutor or Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal or even Enlightened Tutor? Regarding Wargate: Seems to have synergy with Noble Hierarch which is perfectly on color for the deck. A full set of Hierarchs would mean there are 9 accelerants to allow for turn 2 Wargate for Strip Mine which seems pretty good. Conley Woods is my personal hero for at least a week since he not only managed to top 8 with Fastbond (my favorite card) but he also managed to use Halimar Depths as well. Props to Conley Woods.
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T1: Arsenal
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Beralt
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« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2010, 09:49:26 am » |
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Hedron Crab allows more blue, for FoW protection, to stay in color with the Oboro, and you don't have to wait on another turn/attack phase. If you lose Steppe Lynx it takes you out of your need for White with Enlightented Tutor and then you can go black to Demonic, Vampiric, Seal and run a Will for Recursion.
Sending you a PM on this too Meadbert.
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Cyberpunker
Basic User
 
Posts: 608
I just gotta topdeck better than you ^_^.
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« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2010, 10:00:24 am » |
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Hedron Crab
I like this along with Lynx. You can keep your list W/U/G that way.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2010, 12:18:29 pm » |
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Hedron Crab
I like this along with Lynx. You can keep your list W/U/G that way. Crab doesn't require an attack phase either. Might need to be backed up with Crypt/Relic vs. Oath.
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meadbert
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« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2010, 02:42:32 pm » |
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So I was totally skeptical of Crab at first because he seems fairly terrible on his own, but in testing he is solid, but belongs in a different sort of list than I was proposing before.
He does not quite work in the above list because it takes like a high teens number of land drops to deck your opponent which nearly kills you.
Basically Crab has synergy with Crucible in two ways. First he loads the yard for Crucible. Second, a weakness of decks built around Crucible is Graveyard hate, but Crab neatly dodges it.
Wargate was very impressive in general, but it also may not be correct for the list I proposed. Basically putting Strip Mine into play for 3 is solid and putting Fastbond into play for 4 is still broken. That he finds Crab or Oboro is also nice. What I listed before was more aggro control. The issue is that if Stifle is dropped, then there is too little turn 1 disruption.
If I were to play Hedron Crab it would be in a Crucible/Fastbond list with Wargates, Intuitions and Argivian Finds to tutor up combo pieces. I am not sure if Exploration or Horn of Greed would work or not. Probably not.
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T1: Arsenal
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