Single Card Discussion (Emrakul, The Aeons Torn)

[Stray_Cat]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here.
I just wanted to point out the following fact : the trick with DB doesn't work, because it still is not in the grave when you put into play the big dude (via oath).

[AmbivalentDuck]

For example, if A = Dragon's Breath, and B = Eldrazi, for 2 DB the possibilities would be
AAB
ABA
BAA

Yup, I oopsed.  Make it A, a, and B to make it more obvious:

AaB
aAB
aBA
ABa
BAa
BaA

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here.
I just wanted to point out the following fact : the trick with DB doesn't work, because it still is not in the grave when you put into play the big dude (via oath).

they happen at the same time and recognize eachother.

[Evenpence]

While Dragon's Breath will make this guy insane, I can't justify running another dead draw in Oath.

I can see, however, running him + an Ancient Grudge or two to deal with Ensnaring Bridge.

[gkraigher]

ok dragon breath, under its current wording, must work with this guy.  

Enchanted creature has haste.
: Enchanted creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
When a creature with converted mana cost 6 or more enters the battlefield, you may return Dragon Breath from your graveyard to the battlefield attached to that creature.

emrakul has protection from spells, which means they must be cast.  if this dragon breath is in a graveyard when any creature comes into play, then its ability triggers and it comes immediatly into play.  it is never cast.

while we all agree dragon breath is a dead draw, it is not that bad if you 1) have 2 dragon breath in your deck 2) play Lat-Nam's Legacy 3) do both.

i think that emrakul auctually has the potential to make the Kozilek, Butcher of Truth even more playable in vintage.  they are both legendary creatures and if you are running dragon breath why not play both.  if either one of them attacks the turn it gets into play, it sounds to me like the game is over.  who knows, maybe there will be another monster eldrazi creature out there.  but as is, i think 1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth 1 emrakul the aeons torn, and 1 iona should be the route the deck takes.  with Terastodon coming outta the board.  


on a side note, you can always hard cast dragon breath on any of your other creatures.  

i just realized that jace is probably better than lat-nam's legacy.

[zeus-online]

What i said.

What you said.

My point still being: No matter the oath creature, you still have to find, play and resolve oath - That has always been the hard part. Actually winning after you start oathing has not, to my knowledge, been a problem.

[TracerBullet]

What i said.

What you said.

My point still being: No matter the oath creature, you still have to find, play and resolve oath - That has always been the hard part. Actually winning after you start oathing has not, to my knowledge, been a problem.

Actually winning after Oathing IS sometimes a problem.  Sure, with nearly all builds of Oath, assembling the combo is the hard part.  But if you can reduce the chances of losing once you've got everything assembled, you've just picked up a couple game wins.

[zeus-online]

What i said.

What you said.

My point still being: No matter the oath creature, you still have to find, play and resolve oath - That has always been the hard part. Actually winning after you start oathing has not, to my knowledge, been a problem.

Actually winning after Oathing IS sometimes a problem.  Sure, with nearly all builds of Oath, assembling the combo is the hard part.  But if you can reduce the chances of losing once you've got everything assembled, you've just picked up a couple game wins.

And if that is really the problem....Then why are you playing the deck? I do not see the point in playing a combo if it does not win me the game. Why go through alot of setup to play a combo that does not win?

[Troy_Costisick]

What i said.

What you said.

My point still being: No matter the oath creature, you still have to find, play and resolve oath - That has always been the hard part. Actually winning after you start oathing has not, to my knowledge, been a problem.

Actually winning after Oathing IS sometimes a problem.  Sure, with nearly all builds of Oath, assembling the combo is the hard part.  But if you can reduce the chances of losing once you've got everything assembled, you've just picked up a couple game wins.

And if that is really the problem....Then why are you playing the deck? I do not see the point in playing a combo if it does not win me the game. Why go through alot of setup to play a combo that does not win?

Bounce, Swords, Edict, Sower, there's always been ways to deal with Oath creatures once in play.  Oath hasn't been a combo that wins immediately unless you count Yawg's Will/Storm strategies.  In fact, Emrakul/Dragon's Breath would be closest Oath has gotten yet to an immediate win going the creature route.

[zeus-online]

I think you misunderstood me...I didn't say it had to win immediately...I only said that if your combo lands, you should WIN.
It dosn't matter if you win fast or slow with the combo, aslong as it wins the game.

[nineisnoone]

And if that is really the problem....Then why are you playing the deck? I do not see the point in playing a combo if it does not win me the game. Why go through alot of setup to play a combo that does not win?

Because it's frequently a 1 card combo 2 mana combo.  And when it's a 2 card combo, the other card is uncounterable. 

I mean, Tinker at 3 mana doesn't always win you the game and can be answered, but it's still very good.  This is 4 copies of Tinker at 2 mana.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

What i said.

What you said.

My point still being: No matter the oath creature, you still have to find, play and resolve oath - That has always been the hard part. Actually winning after you start oathing has not, to my knowledge, been a problem.

Actually winning after Oathing IS sometimes a problem.  Sure, with nearly all builds of Oath, assembling the combo is the hard part.  But if you can reduce the chances of losing once you've got everything assembled, you've just picked up a couple game wins.

And if that is really the problem....Then why are you playing the deck? I do not see the point in playing a combo if it does not win me the game. Why go through alot of setup to play a combo that does not win?

Bounce, Swords, Edict, Sower, there's always been ways to deal with Oath creatures once in play.  Oath hasn't been a combo that wins immediately unless you count Yawg's Will/Storm strategies.  In fact, Emrakul/Dragon's Breath would be closest Oath has gotten yet to an immediate win going the creature route.

I would argue that Iona is still the closest thing Oath has to an immediate win. You'll probably lose more games by Oathing Emrakul without Dragon's Breath than you will be Iona->Will not being enough to seal the deal, and that isn't even counting the dead slots of Dragon's Breath.

[TheBrassMan]

Its been briefly mentioned before, but this man is mostly an improvement over Progenitus.  Right now I don't think the conditions are correct to run him maindeck, there are certainly situations I'd want to sideboard him in.  I would note that "which creature to oath up" seems significantly more important in the Combo and Tezzeret matchups, where it makes a large difference, and Iona is much better there, and Terastodon is slightly better. Against workshop, fish and other aggro decks, while this is stronger, most large creatures will win the game (the real challenge there is sticking the oath in the first place, Iona will probably win you the game here, even if Emrakul is better)  This makes me feel like you certainly wouldn't want to run it over Iona maindeck, and probably not (but possibly) over your secondary creature, provided you have one.  In the sidebaord he's a lot more interesting.  If you're on the Show and Tell plan, (which personally I believe is not only correct, but one of the only reasons oath is a serious option now), I wouldn't want to be without access to this man, who's not only better than most anti-aggro creatures already, but is at a bare minimum a "differently named legendary creature", which provides value on its own.

[zeus-online]

And if that is really the problem....Then why are you playing the deck? I do not see the point in playing a combo if it does not win me the game. Why go through alot of setup to play a combo that does not win?

Because it's frequently a 1 card combo 2 mana combo.  And when it's a 2 card combo, the other card is uncounterable. 

I mean, Tinker at 3 mana doesn't always win you the game and can be answered, but it's still very good.  This is 4 copies of Tinker at 2 mana.

But tinker is rarely the "main plan" where as oath decks use oath as the main plan. It just seems really weird to me that you guys seriously think it's a problem winning after oathing - That would be the equivelant of tez struggling after assembling vault/key. Anyway it's going into "way off-topic land". So let's focus on Emrakul instead of oath.

[nineisnoone]

If you could run 4 Tinkers like Oath, I'm sure it'd be a main plan.  And Tezz would have to deal with a Null Rod or a Pridemage in play, so in both cases there are concerns beyond hitting the combo.

But on topic.  I think it's a fine pick with Dragon's Breath, and not horrible without it.  I don't really see a big issue concerning including dead cards.  As for Iona or Emrakul, I think they both have a place with basically Iona for combo and Emrakul for aggro.  I think getting raced, especially with Thada and Lodestone pushing creature archetypes, is a legitimate concern which Emrakul answers better than Iona.  So, personally I'd keep them both and side them in/out accordingly to the match-up and deck specifics.

[Cyberpunker]

Yeah, time to pick up my Japanese foil version and own with Oath.

This guy is a 50% shrouded + 70% Evasion + & 100% annihilator 6 15/15 once it attacks. Oath has just taken steroids. My theory is that Oath should run it with Iona, the Elephant, Inkwell and Show & Tell.

IMHO.


I am now even more excited about the Annihilator creatures. I was already happy when the 12/12 Annihilator 4 was brought up.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

I am now even more excited about the Annihilator creatures. I was already happy when the 12/12 Annihilator 4 was brought up.

Well, I can understand this, because this one is 15/15 and has annihilator 6 which is nice.
Looks like critter christmas to me.
But how does annihilator work? can it be stopped by maze of ith or does it nuke it(h)?

It's a nice one and I think show and tell will like him. (with a bunch of other criters to join the fun.)

[BruiZar]

Wow. Now there is a Angel of despair  Darksteel Colossus with annihalator 4. Whats with the power creep, jesus!
Edit: Ah, it says cast so oathing it up won't vindicate a permanent

[zimagic]

But how does annihilator work? can it be stopped by maze of ith or does it nuke it(h)?

Can't be stopped by Maze:
Enter attack phase
Declare attackers, trigger goes on the stack
Maze can respond to the trigger but it will still resolve barring Stifle etc.
You won't take 11/12/15 but you'll lose 4/5/6 permanents.

[TheShop]

What i said.

What you said.

My point still being: No matter the oath creature, you still have to find, play and resolve oath - That has always been the hard part. Actually winning after you start oathing has not, to my knowledge, been a problem.

Actually winning after Oathing IS sometimes a problem.  Sure, with nearly all builds of Oath, assembling the combo is the hard part.  But if you can reduce the chances of losing once you've got everything assembled, you've just picked up a couple game wins.

And if that is really the problem....Then why are you playing the deck? I do not see the point in playing a combo if it does not win me the game. Why go through alot of setup to play a combo that does not win?

Bounce, Swords, Edict, Sower, there's always been ways to deal with Oath creatures once in play.  Oath hasn't been a combo that wins immediately unless you count Yawg's Will/Storm strategies.  In fact, Emrakul/Dragon's Breath would be closest Oath has gotten yet to an immediate win going the creature route.

I would argue that Iona is still the closest thing Oath has to an immediate win. You'll probably lose more games by Oathing Emrakul without Dragon's Breath than you will be Iona->Will not being enough to seal the deal, and that isn't even counting the dead slots of Dragon's Breath.

Yeah, stopping all important spells and then casting vault key seems awfully close to an immediate win.  Also, you still get to run tinker as a tutor for a combo piece as a bonus.

[Mr. Fantastic]

This is clearly better than Iona, Once this hits play your opponent scoops, think about it, what can likely stop this card in vintage:

STP or any spot removal: Stopped by Protection to Colored Spells
Diabloic Edict: Gets returned to the deck and would be oathed up again
Blocked by Vampire Nighthawk (or any card with deathtouch): Possible, unless you can sacrifce 6 permanents and still keep this alive afterwards, which is highly unlikely in vintage, and even if you get to kill this card, your opponent just Oath's it again.
Sower of Temptation: Possible choice to stop this, but highly unlikely since the opponent would most likely pack counters or Stifle
Maze of Ith: Possible, but currently not used in vintage

I have exhausted my options for stopping this and have no possible answer to it unless ther would be one in RoE.

Edit: Although I am not that familiar with other answers in Vintage, maybe you can name a few so that I can get a playset of those

Duplicant is another theoretical solution.  Also, if Annihilator works the way I think it does, Maze is not going to slow it down for more than a turn or two.

Edit: woops, this has already been pointed out. Shame on me for not reading ahead.

[scifiantihero]

Not that elves is a top tier deck, but this guy technically makes it better!

[AmbivalentDuck]

Not that elves is a top tier deck, but this guy technically makes it better!

A win-con that is only even mildly useful when you've successfully "comboed out?"  The only advantage this thing has over Grapeshot is that you can't Thoughtseize it from an opening hand.

[scifiantihero]

I DID think it was pactable, when I posted that, which would have made it even more technically (as in, not that important an improvement, but we're just talking about new cards here) better. 

As is . . . who knows.  It opens up some space on defensive cards, by having the win condition uncounterable.  Something better than this would have to be printed to make me want to play vintage elves (well . . . seriously want to.  I always WANT to!) 

Might have interesting applications in other formats, but I haven't really tested anything in those for a while.

[Killane]

I DID think it was pactable, when I posted that, which would have made it even more technically (as in, not that important an improvement, but we're just talking about new cards here) better. 

As is . . . who knows.  It opens up some space on defensive cards, by having the win condition uncounterable.  Something better than this would have to be printed to make me want to play vintage elves (well . . . seriously want to.  I always WANT to!) 

Might have interesting applications in other formats, but I haven't really tested anything in those for a while.

Why is it not Pactable? It doesn't have haste- it has Time Walk - surely you'll be able to pay for the Pact trigger on the Walk turn is you've just cast him for 15!

[AmbivalentDuck]

Why is it not Pactable? It doesn't have haste- it has Time Walk - surely you'll be able to pay for the Pact trigger on the Walk turn is you've just cast him for 15!

It's not green.

[Killane]

I'm dumb.

[scifiantihero]

We're all a little dumb now and then.

[Ruven]

ehm, maybe I overlooked something, but once you get this guy out, even if tezz lands vault/key, how are they going to win? Unlike they still play Tezzeret, they'll most likely are not going to win with just 4 Confis and 1 Robot, or not?

(Meaning, they need 4 turns of all of them attacking, while at the same time, reavelaning 10 cards to confis etc., so most likely they would die either cause of lifeloss or drawing their library until they get the attackers set up, no?)

[zeus-online]

Tez ultimate or Jace ultimate?...Inkwel beats...Killing you, if just 1 of these cards are in the tez deck, should not be a problem.