Terastodon Oath

[Fortune]

@Tha Gunslinga

I guess you are just better at the game.

Tested like 12 games today Soly playing Oath, me playing Bant Fish.  No SB.  Oath went about 10-2.  It's unreal.

Same list?

[Tha Gunslinga]

Same list I won with last month, same Bant list that took 2nd.  Both lists here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40320.0

[Phele]

@Tha Gunslinga

I guess you are just better at the game.

Tested like 12 games today Soly playing Oath, me playing Bant Fish.  No SB.  Oath went about 10-2.  It's unreal.

Not to doubt your perfectness in playing Noble Fish, but but this sounds too much like a walk in the park for oath. Even though your list is well equipped to beat Noble I would say you won't win 80 percent of the games in general.

[Tha Gunslinga]

We tested Noble Fish vs The Deck before that, and it was about 10-3 in Noble Fish's favor.  Some matchups are just that bad.

[M.Solymossy]

Tested like 12 games today Soly playing Oath, me playing Bant Fish.  No SB.  Oath went about 10-2.  It's unreal.

I guess you and Soly are just better at the game.

Fixed that for ya.

Yeah, it was unreal.  The way to beat Bant Fish is to just over-threat them.

[Fortune]

Could anyone provide some insight into oath's matchup against the various storm decks?

I'd be interested to hear about general gameplans for each game and which things have to be countered.  Thanks guys!

[Suicideking]

Tested like 12 games today Soly playing Oath, me playing Bant Fish.  No SB.  Oath went about 10-2.  It's unreal.

I guess you and Soly are just better at the game.

Fixed that for ya.

Yeah, it was unreal.  The way to beat Bant Fish is to just over-threat them.

As an experienced oath player I can say I'm not surprised by Soly and Ben's testing result.  I have never feared playing against Bant fish in tournaments.  You have bombs and they have bears.  As long as you don't do anything dumb to fall way behind you just beat them by resolving multiple threats per turn.  Your threat density is much higher than theirs.

[M.Solymossy]

You have bombs and they have bears. 

[Rico Suave]

My experience playing Oath against Noble Fish has shown a much different result.  I do not think Oath blows out Fish.  In fact, I would say a well constructed Noble Fish list is the worst match Oath can face in a tournament.

It is quite clear that the Fish decks we face are much different, which should be pretty obvious considering we play in different metagames.  For reference, here is an example of Fish from a pretty recent tournament in the mid-Atlantic metagame:

4th Place: Chris Materwicz playing Noble Fish

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Cold Eyed Selkie
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Trygon Predator
2 Meddling Mage
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Null Rod
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Wasteland
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

SB:
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 True Believer
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt

Comparing this list to the one linked in an earlier post, there are many advantages this deck has in the Oath match. 

First, True Believer must be mentioned here.  This card is a beating.  A single True Believer shuts off every Oath you can possibly draw, and it doesn't need to sacrifice itself like Pridemage does in order to stop Oath from having an effect. 

Second, the back-up plan for Oath is generally to cast Tinker.  This is relatively easy against a Fish deck that has what, 3 Meddling Mage and 2 removal?  It becomes much more difficult when your opponent has Aven Mindcensor on top of that.  Both Tinker and Show and Tell are trumped by Sower of Temptation.  It's even worse when your opponent is drawing a bunch of cards with Selkie. 

There are some other minor changes.  For example, the list above does not use Stifle, which in my opinion is very weak right now and also happens to be terrible against Oath.  The above list also cuts down on the number of Goyfs, which is important because random beatdown isn't as effective as a disruptive bear.   

Also, it's worth noting 4 Null Rods is better than 3. 

Ultimately these all add up to make a significantly different deck.  I am not trying to discredit anybody's testing or opinions in the Oath vs. Fish match.  Instead, I am trying to point out that we arrive at different conclusions because we are aren't even playing the same match.

[M.Solymossy]

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Cold Eyed Selkie
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Trygon Predator
2 Meddling Mage
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Null Rod
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Wasteland
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

SB:
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 True Believer
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt

That list is complete garbage though.  It's way too situational, which is NOT what this deck wants.  I'd have a hard-on playing Oath against that deck.  Nothing he has matters when I hve 3 Wrath of God effects in my deck.    


Pros to this deck:
+1 Null Rod

Cons to this deck:
3 Cold Eyed Selkie
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Meddling Mage
4 Ravenous Trap

Selkie is just AIDS.  Flat out, just god-awful bad.  3 Mana and doesn't do anything.

2 Tarmogoyfs?  Good luck against other creature decks.  Or, you know... MUD

What is Aven Mindscensor good against in the current metagame again?  

Meddling Mage is AIDS..   Have you seen decks?   Everything ever has 4 force of wills + The Restricted list.  I'm pretty sure you're either naming Tinker, Will, or Oath.  Seems AWFUL against non-Oath decks.

Ravenous traps are bad.  This deck can't afford to have 4 cards that are super-niche' just for the Ichorid Matchup.  Where the fuck is Wheel of Sun and Moon?  That card is good against cards other than Dredge.

Verbal Waring for abusive language, messing with such a thing (awful disease) is way out of line in my book, you know better then this Mike. Marske

[Fortune]

Soly, what wrath effects are you running?

[Tha Gunslinga]

Soly, what wrath effects are you running?

Well, they were Perish, Nature's Ruin, and Massacre.  I'd switch to triple Massacre if people start running True Believer and such.

[M.Solymossy]

Virtue's Ruin, Parish, Massacre.

I mean really there is a ton of shit that can beat that deck.   Like, almost anything unfair or even remotely broken.   Like, why play a fair deck in this format?  Answer:  Only retards.   One resolved wrath effect will set the bant player so far back that you could beat them with a 1/1

[Fortune]

Soly, what wrath effects are you running?

Well, they were Perish, Nature's Ruin, and Massacre.  I'd switch to triple Massacre if people start running True Believer and such.

What about sower of temptation?  Have you tried Fire/Ice?

[voltron00x]

One of the things that makes meaningful discussion on Magic so difficult is that everyone feels a need to state everything in overgeneralized absolutes.

While Selkie wasn't popular in our meta for a while, once we had a tournament with 20% Noble Fish, Selkie became reasonable again because it is the second-best 3-drop you can have against Tezz and the best against Fish.  Selkie isn't AIDS any more than playing Wild Nacatl in Legacy is AIDS.  Christ, why does everything have to be AIDS, can't you guys at least stick to Internet precedent and compare things to Hitler?

The first time I played Noble Fish, I went 2-0 against Oath, against two good Oath players (Austin, who'd just won the previous NYSE with Oath, and Brad Granberry).  The next tournament I played Fish, my deck wasn't as focused on Oath while my Oath opponents (again, Brad and Austin) were more prepared, and I went 0-2 against them.

There are a LOT of Fish decks going around, with maindeck Meddling Mage, Pridemage, Trygon Predator, and Swords (which trumps both Darksteel AND Sphinx) and sideboard True Believer and Nature's Claim.  I've even seen lists with access to Plows, Hurks, Meddling Mage, Nature's Claim, True Believer, and Ray of Revelation.  You do NOT want to play against those decks.  Saying they're your best match-up is either dishonest or ignorant.

Most Oath decks only have a handful of answers while Fish has a ton of overlapping pressure points.  

That said, yes, Oath's power level is such that sometimes it makes Fish look silly.  However... If you're not testing against a good Fish player who is taking mulligans correctly, or you're testing preboardonly, or testing post-board against outdated lists, your results aren't going to be accurate.

Also, who plays Fish?  "Only retards"... that want to win power, which Fish keeps doing lately.  Maybe you wouldn't hate this format so much Soly if you respected decks that did well instead of writing them off with insults generally reserved for 3rd grade recess.

[M.Solymossy]

Also, who plays Fish?  "Only retards"... that want to win power, which Fish keeps doing lately.  Maybe you wouldn't hate this format so much Soly if you respected decks that did well instead of writing them off with insults generally reserved for 3rd grade recess.

You're right.  I absolutely loathe this format.  It's god-awful.  They've restricted ANYTHING worthy of playing until the WHOLE metagame is Bant/Oath/Dredge/MUD.  Those are the only 4 decks worth playing. 


Anyways, On topic.    What does Selkie actually do?  It costs 3 in a deck that wants to always use it's wastelands.  If you drop Selkie on any reasonable turn, you're turning off your ability to cast Spell Pierce, Stifle, Plowshares, or activate Pridemage.  It's so easy to chain a win together when you don't have to worry about anything relevant.     The deck doesn't do anything unfair.   And I still believe that resolving one Wrath effect will win the other player the game.  I could win the game with an Unhinged Little Girl if I wrath their effects.  The bant player only runs ancestral for a draw engine.  Good luck keeping up with my broken deck.

[voltron00x]

I'd play money games with stock lists of Noble Fish vs Oath all day long and not have a problem playing Noble Fish, but I do prefer Oath all things being equal.

One of the reasons why Fish is such a solid choice for a good pilot is that overconfident people don't test against it and don't understand why their understanding of "fair" and "unfair" doesn't equate to tournament success.

[voltron00x]

To state that a different way, are you playing to win Power, or are you playing to be the most unfair you can?

Personally, I'd rather play whatever I think is going to give me the best shot to win. 

[Odd mutation]

We've tested the Oath vs Bant Fish matchup as well and it was very much in Oath's favor.

It gets more difficult if the Fish player has Sower of Temptation.

Fish's best hope seemed to be: deny me mana or surprise me with Sower of Temptation.

Massacre was incredible but most of the time not even necessary. Terastodon builds an army fast!

The best thing about Oath is that you have three gameplans:
   * Oath of Druids
   * Time Vault Key Tezzeret (which is almost two win conditions) - I even side this out versus Fish because I don't want Null Rod to ruin my day and Planeswalkers get overrun by Fish's creatures. They cost a lot too to cast.
   * Show and Tell - just be careful for Sower of Temptation

Robrecht

[voltron00x]

For reference, this is the Noble Fish build that I test with / against:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Meddling Mage
3 Trygon Predator
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl

4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand

2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
2 True Believer
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Trygon Predator
1 Nature’s Claim
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Pithing Needle

[M.Solymossy]

I would rather play against that build than the one Carp was playing.  0 Ray of Revalation and 0 stifle is huge.   

[Neonico]

I would rather play against that build than the one Carp was playing.  0 Ray of Revalation and 0 stifle is huge.   

7 anti artefacts, against which some of your counters are useless, 4 anti oath creature post boards, sower of temptations, meddling mage, mana denial.... I'm really confidant when i play this kind of fish deck against oath.

I was sceptical at first, but back when selkie was the dominant deck here in France, i was first to claim that a creature deck cannot beat oath, and the results were really positive for Selkie in our testings.

[madmanmike25]

The best thing about Oath is that you have three gameplans:
   * Oath of Druids
   * Time Vault Key Tezzeret (which is almost two win conditions) - I even side this out versus Fish because I don't want Null Rod to ruin my day and Planeswalkers get overrun by Fish's creatures. They cost a lot too to cast.
   * Show and Tell - just be careful for Sower of Temptation

Wrong, you have 4 game plans.  Dont forget about Tinker.

[M.Solymossy]

7 anti artefacts, against which some of your counters are useless, 4 anti oath creature post boards, sower of temptations, meddling mage, mana denial.... I'm really confidant when i play this kind of fish deck against oath.

The problem with that is if I stop even one of those, the game just is over.  Without a draw engine, the Bant deck has no realistic chance at getting back into the game.  Sure, you have Pridemage.  What happens if I land double oath?   Or just as easily, I can land Key-Vault after you spend resources dealing with Oath.    Or I can just Force of Will Pridemage.  That's how I was beating Ben when he played Bant.  In game 1's, I was just focused on stopping his pridemage. 

After game 1: Bring in all the Meddling Mages, True Believers, and Ray of Revolations you want.  They don't stop Massacre.

[voltron00x]

Soly, I’m not saying that Oath is dominated by Noble Fish, if you’re prepared.  I’m playing hard counters – like Spell Snare and Mana Drain – as well as REB, Jace, and Show & Tell out of respect for that match-up.  The point is that I *respect* it because it’s not walk in the park.  Saying, “duh I have massacre so I auto win” is disingenuous.  Some of these decks play Mindcensor – therefore, as you can say, “I just find Massacre!”, I can say, “except you don’t b/c I blow you out with Mindcensor!”  None of that is really constructive. 

Massacre doesn’t kill Trygon Predator, which is why I ran Firespout in the past, but Spell Pierce made that awkward. 

Also, it’s odd that you say Selkie is “AIDS” yet then say Noble Fish has no draw engine.  You say conditional cards “aren’t where you want to be” but then rip a list that excludes cards like Stifle and Ray of Revelation which are overly conditional or too laser-focused for a diverse meta.

Please, pick a position so we can discuss intelligently.

[voltron00x]

Also, Meddling Mage naming Massacre does, in fact, stop Massacre.

Just saying.

[M.Solymossy]

Soly, I’m not saying that Oath is dominated by Noble Fish, if you’re prepared.  I’m playing hard counters – like Spell Snare and Mana Drain – as well as REB, Jace, and Show & Tell out of respect for that match-up.  The point is that I *respect* it because it’s not walk in the park.  Saying, “duh I have massacre so I auto win” is disingenuous.  Some of these decks play Mindcensor – therefore, as you can say, “I just find Massacre!”, I can say, “except you don’t b/c I blow you out with Mindcensor!”  None of that is really constructive. 

I agree with you.  I'm not trying to oversimplify things.  I respect the deck, which is why I'm spending time writing about it.   My point isn't to say "I auto-win" when I wrath, but to say without an engine, the deck can't recover from a blow-out like that.

Also, it’s odd that you say Selkie is “AIDS” yet then say Noble Fish has no draw engine.  You say conditional cards “aren’t where you want to be” but then rip a list that excludes cards like Stifle and Ray of Revelation which are overly conditional or too laser-focused for a diverse meta.

The metagame ISN'T diverse though.  It's all Oath, Mud, and Bant.  At least where I'm at.  I'm not focusing on a Diverse metagame because it doesn't exist out by me.  Ray of Revolation is huge because over 1/3 the metagame out ehre is Oath.   Stifle is conditional though, I agree with you there.   As for Selkie, it's not an engine.   Bant doesn't really *need* an engine, until it gets blown out by a wrath effect.

Please, pick a position so we can discuss intelligently.

[/quote]

[voltron00x]

I'd definitely play 2 Ray of Revelation if Oath was more than, say, 25% of the meta.  Combined with Null Rod, Plow, and everything else in the deck, you can really bring the hurt against Oath that way... but I still think the match-up is pretty good as-is.

Anyway, I apologize, I should know better than to assume your meta is similar to mine.  The tournament we had last saturday broke down like this:

Oath - 22%
Tezz - 17%
Dredge - 15%
Workshops - 10%
Fish - 10%
TPS - 7%
Drain Tendrils - 7%

That's a pretty diverse meta.  Though, I think almost any format with 4+ tier one decks is diverse.  The old format from 6 months ago, which was 50% Tezz was a lot more miserable in my opinion... although at the same time, I grew to like it, as anyone that could beat Tezz, could top 8 pretty easily.

[M.Solymossy]

At our last tournament, there were 17 people.

Oath - 7
Bant Fish - 3
MUD - 2
Dredge -2
TPS - 1
Tezz - 1
StifleNaught - 1

[Odd mutation]

The best thing about Oath is that you have three gameplans:
   * Oath of Druids
   * Time Vault Key Tezzeret (which is almost two win conditions) - I even side this out versus Fish because I don't want Null Rod to ruin my day and Planeswalkers get overrun by Fish's creatures. They cost a lot too to cast.
   * Show and Tell - just be careful for Sower of Temptation

Wrong, you have 4 game plans.  Dont forget about Tinker.

Correct! I forgot to put the Tinker plan...

It's still 3 because I side out the Time Vault combo.
I'm not totally convinced that siding out the Time Vault combo is correct though and I have questions about what to bring in instead: 2 Pithing Needle or 2 Thoughtseize.

Robrecht