Terastodon Oath

[Tha Gunslinga]

DSC didn't make the cut in 2004; I'm not sure why its good enough here.

Because Tinker means you can tutor it up as a single card that's always good (except with DSC in hand obv) with a single tutor, against an opponent who has no creatures.  Vs any deck you can tutor for Tinker and immediately get a 2-turn clock on the board, without having to worry about finding an Orchard, or losing a Tezzeret to an attacker, or whatever.  I win an awful lot of games with Tinker, and while DSC isn't the most exciting card to Oath out, it's an 11/11 trampler.  I generally don't lose games when I'm Oathing, no matter whether I'm Oathing up DSC, Terastodon, or Iona.



I like the idea of running Drains in here, actually, but I personally prefer the non-combo version for the reasons I outlined earlier.  Here's what I would run:

    4 Forbidden Orchard
    4 Misty Rainforest
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Forest
    2 Island
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    4 Oath of Druids
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Tinker
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Darksteel Colossus
    1 Terastodon
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 Time Vault
    1 Voltaic Key
    4 Spell Pierce
    3 Mana Drain
    4 Force of Will
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Regrowth
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall

Not sure if you still want the basic Forest, and I'm still leaving in DSC and leaving out red.  I'll test this and let folks know how it works out.

[Fortune]

I notice that with the inclusion of drains, Show and Tell has been pushed out of the maindeck.  Any particular reason for this?  Is it just a space issue or do you not want to give your opponent an out to your bolstered permission suite?

[MULocke]

I haven't gotten the chance to test/play with this list as long as some of you guys have, but what happened to Duress/Thoughtseize?  I'm almost always happy to have it, and I miss it when it gets cut.  Doesn't it at least do the same thing as REB, as in eating a counter or Tezz?  If so, Thoughtseize seems a lot better because it doesn't require the red splash.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I notice that with the inclusion of drains, Show and Tell has been pushed out of the maindeck.  Any particular reason for this?  Is it just a space issue or do you not want to give your opponent an out to your bolstered permission suite?

I think running Jace over Show and Tell is a safe replacement.  Show and Tell was sort of the odd man out in the maindeck; I basically cut Ponder, a Sensei's Top, Strip Mine, and Show and Tell, all of which didn't really fit that well.  I don't think any of them will be missed, and Drain is very strong, especially since you untap, then Oath, so you'll have Drain up most likely.  The Jace may or may not be good, but I will test it and see.  I prefer 4 Spell Pierce over a split of Pierce/Snare, because I just don't see as many Snare targets out there except for in Fish, and I would rather have Pierce to use against stuff like Duress, Compulsive Research, Tinker, etc.

[Phele]

Don't you guys ever had problems with the Orchard Tokens hitting your Planeswalkers too often? Don't misunderstand me: I would never cut Tez. And I also directly thought about our Oath list when I first saw Jace. But having two or even three Planeswalkers in the deck makes it quite likely that they get hit by tokens, what makes them mostly a one shot spell.

Btw: Unless Noble Fish disappears, I wouldn't cut Tinker from this deck. So you can easily get around Pridemages, Meddlings and Trygons. I also always loved Tinker for being able to get one of my combo pieces directly into play.

I think one pure Oath target is enough: We play Iona and Sphinx and have good success with it. Terastodon comes out of the board against MUD and that's it. Terastodon is good against Noble Fish as well but not neccessary as Iona and Sphinx are already quite strong against it. And as Voltron underlined: Twister is quite strong with Drains and a tremendous weapon against Dredge.

[healo]

Its interesting, how many changes have been done to this deck. I mean - Tezzeret, Jace, Tinker, Show and Tell, Drains, any combination of creatures.. I agree, that drains are very good in this deck, but 2-3 is a resoneable number. Tinker is awsome against fish, period. With fish decks gaining in popularity, I dont think we can cut this extremly easy way, how to win this matchup. However, I think it might be used as a sideboard option. Depends heavily on your metagame.. I would run it maindeck probably, since I find myself boarding Tinker in very often. Its also interesting, that Black/Red was almost entirely replaced by Blue. This deck is trying to play as many big blue spells, as possible. Not sure, if this is the correct path for an Oath build. Probably, its forced to do so, since metagame is very well prepared for Oath. Im looking forward to the end "product" of this thread, if there is one.

[voltron00x]

Remember,  the Oath deck that I’m testing is meant for my specific metagame. 

Specifically: Tezzeret is, as far as I can tell, at an all-time low in my metagame.  There’s a void, a gap, that an Oath deck like this can exploit. 

Previously, I wasn’t a fan of Oath decks that “emulated” Tezzeret because I felt like their match-up against a competent Tezzeret pilot wasn’t particularly good.  Not saying it was terrible, just that it wasn’t where I wanted it to be for me to play the deck in a tournament.  The reason why is relatively straight-forward:  Oath decks that emulate Tezzeret do so by playing the same “big blue” spells, but with no draw engine and generally less tutoring compared to Tezzeret.  Oath, the Oath creatures, and any supporting cards take up precious slots compared to Tezzeret running just Key/Vault, Tezz, and Tinker/Robot (especially considering many of these Oath builds also run all of those cards, along with 4 Oath of Druids and 2 more creatures on top, or a Twister / Rec combo engine). 

Without having to worry about playing 3-4 Tezz matches in a 6-round tournament, things open up considerably.  Additionally, Jace gives this style of Oath deck its own draw engine, one that is highly synergistic with the specific drawbacks of playing Oath of Druids; this actually makes the Tezz fight more interesting, as you’re playing similar spells and both have draw engines.  Tezz is still favored in a long game, but Oath has considerably more “Oops, I win!” power given its ability to open on Mox, Orchard, Oath.  Jace also gives you incentive to play Mana Drain alongside those other spells like Gifts, Thirst, and Twister.  While I’ve always liked playing Thoughtseize and Duress, they are by no means a requirement of the deck; just as Tezzeret normally plays them (but Brassman did not in his list from the Philly Open) and GWSx plays them (but Steve and Jeff did not in the Bob Tendrils list they played last weekend), successful decks adapt to the metagame around them.

As far as Jace is concerned, I had originally thought the Orchard tokens would be an issue, and putting the deck in my old build with 23 mana sources, they were.  The problem is that my old Oath deck was losing to Shops anyway because it was light on mana and dense on threats (again, because it was designed to beat Tezzeret as its primary function, and Oath mirrors as its secondary function).  The updated version plays 25 mana sources with 2 basics, alongside Mana Drain.  This tends to give you the mana to resolve Jace without using an Orchard.  Even if you do tap one Orchard to play Jace, if that’s the only creature on the board, you still get to Brainstorm 3 times, OR you can just bounce the token and then proceed to get your Brainstorm on from there.

Regarding the choice of Oath creatures, this isn’t something that should be “optimized” in a vacuum.  I strongly believe that any discussion over which Oath targets are “best” as a general rule isn’t really productive; rather, we should be discussing what Oath creature configuration you want if you’re trying to beat something specific.  As an example, the reason why I played so many Haste dragons in the past wasn’t random, it was because I found that as long as I included a red splash, I could beat Tezzeret by just running Dragons, and I could also beat Shops.  That gave me the best shot at beating the players I needed to beat in my metagame if I wanted to win a tournament:  Nick Detwiler, Raff, Jeff Folinus, Steve Nowakowski, Paul Mastriano, etc.  However, my metagame isn’t representative of “the metagame” because in today’s Vintage, there really isn’t one Metagame with a capital M.  Without any National, high-level tournaments occurring, the format is going to be regionally fractured.  The best local players can dominate the metagame and influence it heavily.  In the Mid-Atlantic, this represented itself in a Tezz vs. Everything Else metagame (as it did in most places throughout 2009).  As long as I built an Oath deck that could beat Tezzeret, and had game against the two most popular anti-Tezz decks (5C Stax and Dredge), I could expect to do well.  In the three tournaments before after Iona was released through 1/3/2010 where I played Oath, my overall record was 15-2-4 with two finals splits and a top 8.  In fact, even before Iona, the last four tournaments I played Oath yielded a Swiss record of 13-8-2 with a finals split and a top 8 (one dud, a 2-4 at the August Blue Bell, drags those numbers down a lot); the finals split came in the tournament where I cut Chalice for more powerful spells like Will, and added Red to play Ancient Grudge and REB, just before Iona came out.  The deck I played at the NYSE III was essentially the same deck as the one in Oaks, except I played Iona plus 2 Hellkite instead of 2 Hellkite and a Karrthus.

That never meant that Dragons or Dragon(s) + Iona were “the best” strategy as an absolute rule, just that I thought it was the best for me, in my metagame.

Similarly, DSC could very well be the best Tinker target in some metagames.  Personally, I’d play Sphinx in my meta, and I know Brad agrees.  That doesn’t mean that one is “right” and one is “wrong”.  There’s no point arguing the “best” Oath targets in a vacuum, nor the best Tinker targets.  If we, as players, are doing our homework, its highly likely and probably correct that we’d see different conclusions as far as what Oath targets are “best” for us.  The same is true in your decision regarding cards like Duress, Thoughtseize, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and Mana Drain. 

One thing I didn’t mention that I like about the Tinker plan is its strength in the mirror match.  I won my last two Oath mirrors on the strength of Tinker/Sphinx out of the sideboard.  As an example, Brad’s deck from Saturday has many ways to “cheat” guys into play; besides Oath and Tinker he also has Bribery, which makes him heavily favored in a mirror-match.  The deck that I listed above is actually designed for a meta where Oath is very low; I think there were only 4 or 5 players running it out of 45ish on Saturday.  The main targets are Workshops and Fish, followed by Dredge and Storm.  Given that, I’d be inclined to play the version that doesn’t have Twister or Rec and plays Tinker and Sphinx main, to allow room for 2x Mindbreak Trap in the SB.  This is despite the fact that I hate having three very different Oath targets (Sphinx, Iona, Terastodon).

Another thing:  Red Elemental Blast was one of the subtle but key cards (along with Ancient Grudge) that made my Tezzeret match-up so good while offering key support in other match-ups.  In the current list it has many functions.  If you notice, I’m on the Jailer plan vs Dredge (typically I’ll side so that I have Iona plus 3 Jailers; Iona will name Blue to lock out Chain of Vapor).  This is because Dredge players are mostly cheating on anti-Jailer SB options.  In fact, Mark Hornung’s modified version of my deck has only 1 Darkblast and 4 Chain of Vapor!  Sticking a Jailer against that deck and having REB to back it up means you should win the game.  Another key function is to provide support against Tezzeret decks with Remora.  Mystic Remora is a nightmare for this style of Oath.  I think you either run Krosan Grip (so you can blow up Remora EOT and then untap and win) or REB (so you can counter it immediately or remove it from the board one-for-one).  REB is also a one-mana kill spell for Meddling Mage naming Oath of Druids and Trygon Predator, so its role in beating Noble Fish is huge.

Anyway, just some random thoughts as I avoid starting my work day today.

[Fortune]

voltron00x,

I just started playing vintage, piloting oath to a 3-2 finish at King's Games two weeks ago.  I was running a list very similar to the one in the original post, and got crushed before the cut to the top 4 by MUD (though I had some pretty terrible mulligans).  When you speak of optimization for Oath, what can be done to shore up the shops matchup?  I played against 2 shops decks in my tournament, going 1-1, and I felt that my only out was t1 tinker or oath.  Do you have any insight into shoring up this matchup?

Also, could you explain the inclusion of timetwister in the deck? I saw it referred to as part of a combo earlier in the thread, but I think I'm missing something.

Again, thanks everyone in the thread that's posted.  As a new player, it's great to see such constructive discussion.

[voltron00x]

On MUD: It’s funny that you mention this as over in the MUD thread, there’s a conversation going about how MUD can beat Oath.  The match-up is definitely favored for whoever is on the play in my experience.

On the Oath side, including a blue instant such as Hurks or Rebuild (or both) helps considerably, as in the early game before MUD establishes control, you can resolve an Upkeep tutor for Hurks or Rebuild, reset the board, and resolve an Oath.  Spell Pierce and Force of Will are at their strongest in this match-up; playing carefully with fetches to handle Wasteland and including basic lands is also a must.  Ancient Grudge can also be very strong.  Ideally, when on the play, Oath can either open on a quick Oath, turn 1 off fast mana or turn 2 after a turn-one Pierce / FoW / Thoughtseize keeps MUD’s initial play off the board.

As far as the actual Oath creatures, Tinker -> Sphinx is pretty strong against most MUD decks as well as Stax.  That said, many MUD decks will have outs such as Duplicant or even tapping it down via Staff or Tangle Wire, or getting it off the board via Smokestack.  One of my concerns with playing, say, Sphinx/DSC, Iona, and Terastodon against Shop decks is that you might only get to trigger Oath twice depending on the board state and Smokestack.  If you don’t hit Terastodon, you may not be able to win these games if Smokestack is on-board for MUD.  That means that Oath into Tinker target and then Iona, or vice versa, won’t be enough.  Being able to sideboard out Iona into either a Terastodon or Hellkite Overlord should help you win the games you stick Oath of Druids in the mid-game as opposed to turn 1 or 2.  If you can Oath into Ancient Grudge while bringing Terastodon / Hellkite into play, even better.

An ideal hand against MUD on the draw has Force of Will, Oath of Druids, fetch or basic land, and fast mana (but doesn’t rely too much on that fast mana, if you have Lotus, Mox, Mox, Fetch you could get blown out by Chalice of the Void or even a double-Thorn / Sphere opener).  On the play, you either want to play Oath on turn one, or you want to be able to counteract a first-turn play, preferably without laying out a non-basic land, and then have a game-changing turn two.  This could be resolving Jace, or resolving some draw spells, or setting up a Will turn off a turn-two Mana Drain… or just laying out Oath.  I know that locally many MUD players are using Rishadan Port to play around counters, so you need to watch out for that.  Port was solid for me all day at the March Blue Bell against Tezz, and these Oath decks occupy similar territory.

The best advice I can give for this match-up is to just test it as much as you can.  Alternate sets of games on the draw and on the play, and then focus on post-board games.  Learn which hands you can keep, and which ones you can’t.  One of the reasons I like MUD at the moment is that it is so ruthless against opponents who stumble, either on their mana or by keep hands they shouldn’t keep b/c they might “get there”.  MUD decks with 13 sphere effects plus Chalice are not kind to hands that need to draw into something.

One of MUD’s key weapons in this match-up, especially the ones that pack an offensive punch, is to resolve a fast chalice on 2 and then get a clock like Lodestone on-board.  Outs to this, such as Nature’s Claim, Rebuild, Rack & Ruin, and Krosan Grip, can also help the match-up out of the sideboard.

If I were really concerned about beating MUD, I’d actually probably move Tinker -> Sphinx to the Sideboard and play Iona + 2 Terastodon, and in place of Tinker main I’d play Rebuild.  I might also find room for a basic land, probably a basic forest, in either the main or SB.  You can also include dedicated anti-MUD hate like Energy Flux in your sideboard if you want, most of these Oath lists can support it post-board.  I would probably sideboard back into 2 Terastodon and Tinker / Sphinx post-board against most Shop decks, moving Iona to the board for post-board games, since that gives me another “quick win” card plus if my opponent has Eon Hub or Gargadon, Tinker -> Sphinx lets me beat that. 

Typical cards you can expect from MUD (or shops in general) are Ensnaring Bridge (which is a good choice if Dredge and Oath are popular due to the overlap), Maze of Ith, Duplicant, and Eon Hub.  Shops with access to red often have Greater Gargadon, making Pithing Needle a good card to have in your sideboard.

Re: Timetwister, you use it to set up infinite turns.  The idea is you Oath out your entire deck, preferably with Iona in play on Blue so that your opponent can’t play counterspells.  On your upkeep, you Oath out the remainder of your Library, and then play Krosan Reclamation to “shuffle” Yawgmoth’s Will into your Library.  You then draw and play Will.  Will lets you replay all the fast mana in your Graveyard.  You use this to play Key and Vault, untap Vault with Key and use Vault to take another turn, and then Timetwister.  Playing Hurks helps in my experience as that can function as a way to increase your mana (you need GB3 to play Rec and Will, and then 2 (vault) +1 (key) +1 (key activation) + U2 (Twister)).  The deck plays Lotus, 5 Mox, Crypt, and Sol Ring so given Will, this mana requirement is usually not a problem as your whole deck is in your graveyard.  Tolarian Academy also helps here as you can play that out of your Graveyard using Will, which leaves you with more than enough mana.  This sets you up for infinite turns.  Some builds play Flash of Insight for extra protection for corner cases, see some of Vroman’s posts in the old Oath thread for details.

On a separate note, as far as Twister and Krosan Rec, that version is going to have a better match-up pre-board against Storm decks, since you’re more likely to hit Iona on the first Oath.  I really expect Storm decks to come on strong in the coming months.  TPS won the Philly Open, JaceStorm came in second at the March Blue Bell, Brassman went x-0 in the Philly Open Swiss rds with Tezz with ETW and Tendrils and then won the smaller even the next day, and Bob Tendrils won the first April Blue Bell (there’s another on 4/24 – are we spoiled out here or what?). 

At this point you can insert your own witty line about there being a storm on the horizon, etc.

[Troy_Costisick]

Dang, Matt.  It looks like you're ready to do a Night of the Living Oath article!  Maybe after Emrakul gets some testing?

[Tha Gunslinga]

Generally I'm pretty careful about using Orchards for mana when I don't have Oath, so I usually don't have issues with getting hit with tokens, or getting Planeswalkers killed.  Also, with Tezzeret, it's pretty hard to lose it, unless your opponent has 2 Orchard tokens, in which case I would recommend against casting it, unless you need the Fog effect or need the artifact fetch ability.  You can always just fetch up Top, then Key, which will help find Vault or a tutor for it, while drawing free cards.  Assuming an opponent with 2 Orchard tokens, you play Tez, fetch Top, they hit it to 1, then you can look at the top 3, if you don't see Vault, then untap, draw, look again if you need to, then fetch Key, look again, wash, rinse, repeat.

[swawagon]

From Riches list the first thing I did was cut the second Top for Jace Mindsculpter.

Ben I really like your list. I can see cutting Ponder for a Mana Drain and to some point losing Show and Tell (but although it's kind of in the 'cute' category, it's also a pretty great bomb!)

And I agree if you run a few Drains you have to lose either Stripmine or the Forest, possibly both. If you are running Nature Claim in the SB for Stax and the mirror, the Forest is probably worth a slot. But I do like 26 mana sources either way, just not sure how to do it.

[Rico Suave]

But isn't the idea of Oath that(in those matchups) you have 4 green tinkers?   In my testing with this deck, the risk of hitting DSC was unacceptably high in matchups where it matters.  There are too many situations and matchups where DSC is dead.  I readily appreciate the value of Tinker, but you still have the Time Vault combo, and you can always put DSC -- or any other artifact creature -- in your sideboard.  

The added benefit of more consistent Oaths is not as powerful as having a 5th Oath that makes deck as a whole more consistent, especially when that 5th Oath can ignore many of the main deck cards that stop Oath like Pridemage, Chalice at 2, etc.  

[Tha Gunslinga]

Tinker doesn't need Orchard, and doesn't take a turn to activate, and doesn't fold to any of the Oath-specific hate.  It's pretty awesome.  It also does something relevant, unlike Jace, which does absolutely nothing except Brainstorm.

[swawagon]

Ben what are your thoughts on Show and Tell?

I tested a bunch more games and actually found the card to be awesome! I didn't expect much, but have been happily surprised. What I liked about it was the fact that it can bring in a card right now over the next turn with Oath. It was similar to Tinker, but for non artifact disruption filled fatties.

In testing I had a mid-game with both our hands depleted with a Show and Tell in hand and a just drawn Demonic Tutor. There seemed a no better play than to Tutor for Terastadon and Show him in, wiping all the opponents mana. Then swing with my big guy till their death. Lat Nam's Legacy, in that Show and Tell slot, could not have offered a one sided Armageddon and 9/9 on my side.

It still seems funky, but I think Show and Tell might actually belong here.

[The Atog Lord]

I find the activity going on with Elephant Oath very interesting. One of the main concepts that lead to the list in its present form is the poor performance Mana Drain has given recently. And now I see folks trying builds leaning heavily on this card. I have not tried the Drain and Jace builds here, since I haven't had enough time to test much lately. But I fear that Mana Drain has become less than ideal in the current state of Vintage.

As for cards like Show and Tell, it is generally going to be a metagame call.

[voltron00x]

I find the activity going on with Elephant Oath very interesting. One of the main concepts that lead to the list in its present form is the poor performance Mana Drain has given recently. And now I see folks trying builds leaning heavily on this card. I have not tried the Drain and Jace builds here, since I haven't had enough time to test much lately. But I fear that Mana Drain has become less than ideal in the current state of Vintage.

As for cards like Show and Tell, it is generally going to be a metagame call.

I'm not sure I agree that Mana Drain is the problem.  Rather, after 2 years,  I think people have learned how to beat traditional Mana Drain Tezzeret decks. 

Other Drain decks that see less play, such as Drain Tendils, have done quite well in the hands of certain players; Mana Drain is as good as ever, it just needs to be utilized differently.  I think it actually gains value when played in a deck where it isn't expected.  If my opponent is playing around Spell Pierce, b/c Oath decks are "supposed" to play Spell Pierce, and walks into Mana Drain, it can turn a game around on the spot.

[Cyberpunker]

Show and Tell indeed is very strong.

Jace does work as a Topdeck screwer, which can be important...but Tinker is too strong to be cut. It is both a tutor for the Key/Vault combo pieces as well as another win condition.

It however means that you have to degrade your Oath targets by running Inkwell...><. DSC and Sphinx are too bouncible and that is a no no.

[Rico Suave]

RE: Jace

Jace is not fighting for a slot against Tinker or the Robot.  The deck can run one, the other, or both without much difficulty at all.  Because Steve suggested he would replace a Robot with Jace doesn't mean that this is the only possibility.  

Right now, there doesn't seem to be a suitable engine that works well with Oath.  As a result, the deck has the fundamental Oath cards, the tutors, the broken cards, and some other utility but it still ends up needing a lot of filler cards that aren't very impressive.  This is how cards like Impulse find their way into the deck.  This "open" style of deck allows for various metagame decisions that may or may not give an edge in certain match-ups.  For example I've run a single copy of Bribery for several events, and dominated the Oath mirror with it.  

But when it all boils down, cards like Bribery and other filler cards just look like complete garbage in comparison to Jace.  Jace is certainly very strong.  It is hard to argue against a Brainstorm effect in an Oath deck, but while Jace is powerful it is difficult to tell if it is what the deck really needs.  There are a variety of situations where Jace can be awkward in troublesome matches.  That being said, it is worth reiterating that while the card may not be perfect it is nevertheless very powerful.  It is tough to find something better to fit in those extra flex spots but it doesn't feel like an engine.

RE: Show and Tell

Show and Tell is, largely, a tool to beat Fish or other extremely hateful decks.  It is actually quite a potent tool, and in testing I've found that a properly constructed Show and Tell plan can move Fish from a frustrating match to a very favorable match.  It is difficult for Fish to cope with a deck that is running what amounts to 2-4 copies of Tinker on top of 4 Oath.  

I cut it in my recent tournaments, and still performed well against Fish overall, but it does provide quite a strong edge if one were to dedicate the necessary SB slots to it.  It may or may not make its way back in for me, especially given the popularity of Fish in this area recently.  It remains a metagame call.

I still wouldn't use Show and Tell in other matches though.  There is a disappointing array of options to board in against Fish, but that is just not true against other decks where Show and Tell would be tempting like against Workshops.

RE: Mana Drain

It saddens me to say that I don't feel Mana Drain is good right now.  There has been a lot of talk about Mana Drain recently, with strong opinions on both sides.  

On one hand there are experienced and capable players who feel Drain is still a strong contender.  Surely the card is quite good and frequently leads to drastic game-winning swings.  Numerous players continue to top 8 with Drains as evidenced by the very own metagame I play in.  

On the other hand, I've talked with other experienced and capable players who feel Drain is weak.  Too often people will have the tools to play around Drain or just right through it.  When looking at results, the vast majority of Oath decks that perform do so without Drain, and there are various other non-Oath yet still blue-based decks that top 8 without Drain.  

There is both theory and results to back up both sides of the argument.  Personally, I don't feel that Drain is bad.  It is definitely a viable choice.  I just do not feel it is optimal.  

Matt: you say that people learned how to beat traditional Mana Drain Tezz decks.  I have to ask though, is a Mana Drain Oath deck that much different?  The primary reason I switched from blue control to Oath is because it felt like playing Tezz except I got to upgrade my Bobs into Oaths.  The rest of the decks are virtually identical, with the exception of Oath's burden in running extra cards to facilitate the Oath engine.  In fact my very first few drafts and tournaments with the deck were exactly built on a traditional Tezz philosophy.  

If Mana Drain is truly still good, and we just aren't using it correctly, I would like to know how to make it work in Oath without going to the extreme that a deck like Drain Tendrils does by including 3 copies of Dark Ritual and other storm components.  

[Tha Gunslinga]

But when it all boils down, cards like Bribery and other filler cards just look like complete garbage in comparison to Jace.

I would argue the opposite.  Jace Brainstorms.  Bribery steals your opponent's best creature out of their deck and puts it under your control.  +1 card advantage, vs winning the game?  I'll take the win. 

Obviously you don't run it main because it's dead vs a lot of decks, but man, it's insane against half the format.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Obviously you don't run it main because it's dead vs a lot of decks, but man, it's insane against half the format.

Really?  Can you elaborate?  I don't think I'd want this for the mirror, Dredge, Tez or Storm matchups.  I don't see getting to 5 mana against Shops.  Is it GG against Fish?  What am I missing?

[Gekoratel]

Seems awesome in the mirror match if you steal an Iona and name Green what can they really do?  Against Tez you can steal their big man of choice which isn't that exciting but still fine.  If the storm deck is TPS then they'll likely have Inkwell or DSK to take.  Against Fish you can nab a Goyf which will likely half their offense, Stax can take a Welder, MUD Lodestone and hope to trade with theirs.  It seems like there are a lot of applications even if not all of them are ideal.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Seems awesome in the mirror match if you steal an Iona and name Green what can they really do?

That one is pretty good, actually.  The rest, with the exception of maybe welder, don't seem like a good ROI for 5 mana and some seem just bad.

[DubDub]

Seems awesome in the mirror match if you steal an Iona and name Green what can they really do?  Against Tez you can steal their big man of choice which isn't that exciting but still fine.  If the storm deck is TPS then they'll likely have Inkwell or DSK to take.  Against Fish you can nab a Goyf which will likely half their offense, Stax can take a Welder, MUD Lodestone and hope to trade with theirs.  It seems like there are a lot of applications even if not all of them are ideal.

Name green?  They could just drop Jace and unsummon her, or assemble Vault-Key and then win at their leisure.  I don't think you fear Oath too much once you have their Iona, so naming Green seems much worse than Blue or Black.

[hitman]

Seems awesome in the mirror match if you steal an Iona and name Green what can they really do?  Against Tez you can steal their big man of choice which isn't that exciting but still fine.  If the storm deck is TPS then they'll likely have Inkwell or DSK to take.  Against Fish you can nab a Goyf which will likely half their offense, Stax can take a Welder, MUD Lodestone and hope to trade with theirs.

...except against Oath, you're playing a five-mana sorcery while they're playing some number of Mana Drain, Spell Pierce and/or Negate.  Against Tezzeret, they're playing real bombs that simply end the game at five mana or less, like Tezzeret, Gifts Ungiven or Yawgmoth's Will.  Against TPS, I'm pretty sure this is the worst card you could side in and, if it's in your mainboard, it's got to be the first card you take out.  Against Stax, they play a bunch of Sphere effects so, at five mana to begin with, you likely won't be resolving it before their Lodestone Golem kills you.  Even against Fish, spending five mana to take a Tarmogoyf seems a lot less powerful than simply playing a different card.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Obviously you don't run it main because it's dead vs a lot of decks, but man, it's insane against half the format.

Really?  Can you elaborate?  I don't think I'd want this for the mirror, Dredge, Tez or Storm matchups.  I don't see getting to 5 mana against Shops.  Is it GG against Fish?  What am I missing?

Tez has a robot, right?  Take it.   Obviously you're not likely to get to 5 mana vs Dredge, but I really don't see Jace as being at all relevant vs Dredge either.  Storm usually has a Tinker-bot, though obviously you can leave this in the sb vs them.  Shops it's obviously not good against.  The mirror it, um, takes their guy?  Right?  Am I missing something?   Bribery vs Oath is an auto-win most of the time.  When people board in Greater Gargadon, you Bribery it.  What does Jace do vs Gargadon, put it back in their hand when it comes in hasted and attacks and oh, wait, Jace is in the yard now, nevermind.

...except against Oath, you're playing a five-mana sorcery while they're playing some number of Mana Drain, Spell Pierce and/or Negate.

So you're saying I shouldn't play spells because my opponent could counter them?  Does Jace have split second now?  Wouldn't it get countered just the same?

[Gekoratel]

Name green?  They could just drop Jace and unsummon her, or assemble Vault-Key and then win at their leisure.  I don't think you fear Oath too much once you have their Iona, so naming Green seems much worse than Blue or Black.

Well it depends on their exact configuration but if there creature base is Iona, DSK, Terrastadon then the only way they can win becomes Vault/Key.  If they are on Dragon Oath then they can't actually win the game even with Vault/Key unless they have Jace or some other non artifact bounce spell.  I don't think Jace is mainstream for Oath yet but I could be wrong.  Also I was just using Green as an example if your ahead on Orchard then name blue but if your behind and Oath would get them there then I would go with green, but clearly its going to be gamestate dependent.

[hitman]

So you're saying I shouldn't play spells because my opponent could counter them?  Does Jace have split second now?  Wouldn't it get countered just the same?

No, I'm saying you should play more strategically viable options.  You can't interact meaningfully with an opponent who's disruption is at least twice as mana efficient as your threat and it costs them no sideboard slots or adaptation.  They simply play the same gameplan they were mainboarding.

While we're on the subject, I'm pretty sure Jace sucks anyway.  Playing a four casting cost card that Brainstorms is pretty weak.  There are a number of cards which are more powerful for the cost.  Even re-adding the Show and Tell you cut from the mainboard would be more powerful since you're playing Mystical along with three creatures. 

[DubDub]

Name green?  They could just drop Jace and unsummon her, or assemble Vault-Key and then win at their leisure.  I don't think you fear Oath too much once you have their Iona, so naming Green seems much worse than Blue or Black.

Well it depends on their exact configuration but if there creature base is Iona, DSK, Terrastadon then the only way they can win becomes Vault/Key.  If they are on Dragon Oath then they can't actually win the game even with Vault/Key unless they have Jace or some other non artifact bounce spell.  I don't think Jace is mainstream for Oath yet but I could be wrong.  Also I was just using Green as an example if your ahead on Orchard then name blue but if your behind and Oath would get them there then I would go with green, but clearly its going to be gamestate dependent.

Okay, so first, when resolving Bribery you should be able to look through their deck and see all the creatures available to be Oathed up, right?  (You'll miss creatures in hand, but you should be able to keep track of Brainstorms/Jace-activations thereafter.)  Moreover, if grabbing Iona doesn't give you as good a shot at a win then you can take a non-Iona creature.

Let's say that you grab Iona (over DSC and Elephants!), they don't have either Oath or Jace down, and you name Green.  Their outs are one turn to Tinker up DSC (which wins the race), or two turns to Vault-Key or Jace Iona.

If you name Blue then their outs are one turn to drop Oath (and then they have to get Terastodon and make Elephants for themself, and be able to one-shot you with 18 power AND you can't have Orchard-advantage/creature parity), or two turns to Vault-Key you without the use of blue spells.

Obviously different creature combinations change the calculation a little, but I'd be hard pressed to name green.

[Gekoratel]

Yeah naming green probably isn't that strong of a play on average, didn't really think through the clock/influence of other creatures.  One nice thing about Bribery is that you can reverse engineer your opponents hand if they don't call you on slow play which I've found most people don't in Vintage events.  If your able to do that and know your opponents general list then making an informed choice on which creature to take shouldn't be too hard.