Ritual Based Combo in Today's Metagame

[Killane]

I'm not a fan of Inky anymore, although if you really expect to see a shitton of StpS and similar removal then it's quite a beating vs any deck that runs U a decent vs the rest of the field. It's also good vs shops since it can't be welded, hit with Duplicant, or copied with Shaping Steel.

Inkwell can be copied with Sculpting Steel, because the latter says "choose an artifact in play" rather than targeting.

Really? wow. shows how often I've used Inky recently I guess. It's (marginally) even worse than I already thought it was.

[honestabe]

So how about TPS being randomly good again?

[MagicMan]

Saw this and it makes me happy and I'm having happy happy thoughts about rethinking it viability in this MUD shit META!!! I wantmy storm back!

[desolutionist]

I've been out of the loop for a couple months and I was wondering where Rituals stand in today's metagame.  The 4x Spell Pierce deck that won gen con looks like it could be a challenging matchup.  I'm playing in a Blue Bell tournament this Saturday and I could really use some good information; I need to know what to expect and what popular counter strategies I should be prepared to play against.

[Stormanimagus]

I've been out of the loop for a couple months and I was wondering where Rituals stand in today's metagame.  The 4x Spell Pierce deck that won gen con looks like it could be a challenging matchup.  I'm playing in a Blue Bell tournament this Saturday and I could really use some good information; I need to know what to expect and what popular counter strategies I should be prepared to play against.

Personally, I might give Psionic Blast a try as a 3-of in modern TPS instead of trying something clunky like splashing Red for REB. Psi Blast has the distinction of:

1. Killing Jace
2. Killing Predator
3. Killing any Fish creature (save perhaps Goyf)
4. Killing Golem
5. Killing Karn
6. Killing Confidant

7. 4 to the dome FTW!

I dunno if it's a bad idea, but it might actually deserve some testing in this meta.

-Storm

[Killane]

I've been out of the loop for a couple months and I was wondering where Rituals stand in today's metagame.  The 4x Spell Pierce deck that won gen con looks like it could be a challenging matchup.  I'm playing in a Blue Bell tournament this Saturday and I could really use some good information; I need to know what to expect and what popular counter strategies I should be prepared to play against.

Personally, I might give Psionic Blast a try as a 3-of in modern TPS instead of trying something clunky like splashing Red for REB. Psi Blast has the distinction of:

1. Killing Jace
2. Killing Predator
3. Killing any Fish creature (save perhaps Goyf)
4. Killing Golem
5. Killing Karn
6. Killing Confidant

7. 4 to the dome FTW!

I dunno if it's a bad idea, but it might actually deserve some testing in this meta.

-Storm

apart form the fatc that 4 and 5 are unlikey due to high casting costs, this is interesting. Might work as a 1-of. Might also be terrible.

[failtofind]

the only reason the tinker target is in the deck is for fish, and the best tinker vs fish is inkwell leviathan, the best tinker target vs all other decks is memory jar.tinkering for a robot against any other deck is awful.

[Delha]

the only reason the tinker target is in the deck is for fish, and the best tinker vs fish is inkwell leviathan.../quote]
What makes you say that? You will very often be behind on life by the time you resolve Tinker, and Leviathan is raceable where Sphinx is not.

[failtofind]

it doesn't matter if i am behind on life as long as i tendrils my opponent for the win, tinkering for other robots is better in control decks where it is easier to protect, whereas combo combo has to blow its load to resolve tinker..this lets other decks besides fish untap and blow you out.

[Stormanimagus]

I've been out of the loop for a couple months and I was wondering where Rituals stand in today's metagame.  The 4x Spell Pierce deck that won gen con looks like it could be a challenging matchup.  I'm playing in a Blue Bell tournament this Saturday and I could really use some good information; I need to know what to expect and what popular counter strategies I should be prepared to play against.

Personally, I might give Psionic Blast a try as a 3-of in modern TPS instead of trying something clunky like splashing Red for REB. Psi Blast has the distinction of:

1. Killing Jace
2. Killing Predator
3. Killing any Fish creature (save perhaps Goyf)
4. Killing Golem
5. Killing Karn
6. Killing Confidant

7. 4 to the dome FTW!

I dunno if it's a bad idea, but it might actually deserve some testing in this meta.

-Storm

apart form the fatc that 4 and 5 are unlikey due to high casting costs, this is interesting. Might work as a 1-of. Might also be terrible.

That may be true, but it is an instant and that cannot be underestimated. With all the basics and artifact mana you run it is not unheard of to have 4 or 5 mana up on the upkeep before you die. Just saying that it's not dead against Shops at all.

-Storm

[The Atog Lord]

Lightning Bolt costs just one mana, and does almost anything you could want Psionic Blast to do.

The significance of a two-mana difference in cost is illustrated by the fact that everyone plays with Force of Will, and no on plays with Counterspell.

[Stormanimagus]

Lightning Bolt costs just one mana, and does almost anything you could want Psionic Blast to do.

The significance of a two-mana difference in cost is illustrated by the fact that everyone plays with Force of Will, and no on plays with Counterspell.

Agreed that Lightning Bolt is better. But is it SOOO much better that you want to splash Red for it in TPS? I thought that part of TPS's strength was its 6 basics and full artifact accel to pump out Hurkyl's Recalls like no other deck against MUD? Has the Hurkyl's plan truly become too slow or are there just not enough good TPS pilots out there to get a solid sampling of what ACTUALLY happens in that match-up. I was under the impression that the MUD match-up was very winnable if not FAVORABLE for TPS. Is this not correct?

[The Atog Lord]

I'd much rather splash for Bolt than actually run Psionic Blast.

As for Hurkyl's Recall, Kevin Cron defeated me at the World Championships through the power of Leyline of Sanctity. Since it already does so much against Storm already, why also let it take down your bounce spell?

[Stormanimagus]

I'd much rather splash for Bolt than actually run Psionic Blast.

As for Hurkyl's Recall, Kevin Cron defeated me at the World Championships through the power of Leyline of Sanctity. Since it already does so much against Storm already, why also let it take down your bounce spell?

That statement is unclear. I understand that Sanctity stops both Hurkyl's AND the kill but what are you suggesting the Storm player do, NOT side in Hurkyl's against Shops? That would def. be wrong in my view. Then I think you simply have to go to the plan B of Tinker/Bot and hope that gets you there.

I think I may confused with the wording of my statement. I only meant to say: Have storm players consistently been able to get around Spheres/Wires and THOSE types of effects with the manabase + full accel in time to not die to beats. I'm not referring to all the other permanent hate out there like Leyline of Sanctity, Gaddock Teeg, MM, Canonist etc. as that is a whole nother can of worms that Storm is going to have to deal with. Sanctity is a very VERY good card vs. Storm though and should probably below higher up on my "most feared cards" list.

-Storm

[Tobi]

I've been out of the loop for a couple months and I was wondering where Rituals stand in today's metagame.  The 4x Spell Pierce deck that won gen con looks like it could be a challenging matchup.  I'm playing in a Blue Bell tournament this Saturday and I could really use some good information; I need to know what to expect and what popular counter strategies I should be prepared to play against.

Today I'd be more worried about MUD than SpellPierce.dec. Nevertheless, storm is still playable imo. Don't leave home without Confidants though!
Leyline is an issue that cannot be ignored, so a plan-b (aka TinkerBot) and Chain of Vapor must be packed. But this is nothing new to storm.

So in summary, basically nothing changed dramatically 

[desolutionist]

I've been wondering if phylactery lich would make a good phyrexian negator sideboard strategy. Has anyone tried them?

[Djinn]

I've been out of the loop for a couple months and I was wondering where Rituals stand in today's metagame.  The 4x Spell Pierce deck that won gen con looks like it could be a challenging matchup.  I'm playing in a Blue Bell tournament this Saturday and I could really use some good information; I need to know what to expect and what popular counter strategies I should be prepared to play against.

Today I'd be more worried about MUD than SpellPierce.dec. Nevertheless, storm is still playable imo. Don't leave home without Confidants though!
Leyline is an issue that cannot be ignored, so a plan-b (aka TinkerBot) and Chain of Vapor must be packed. But this is nothing new to storm.

So in summary, basically nothing changed dramatically 

I initially wanted bobs in my deck but I don't believe him to be an auto include unless you're playing gwsx. There are so many cards that cause significant life loss like fow yawgbarg minds desire etc. In some cases other cards may be better, but that's just my opinion and also varies on meta. I am not saying bob is not good because he is fantastic when played right, just be careful. Also please spare any egregious spelling errors I'm typing on an iPod waiting to be selected for jury duty :-/

[Tobi]

I initially wanted bobs in my deck but I don't believe him to be an auto include unless you're playing gwsx. There are so many cards that cause significant life loss like fow yawgbarg minds desire etc. In some cases other cards may be better, but that's just my opinion and also varies on meta. I am not saying bob is not good because he is fantastic when played right, just be careful. Also please spare any egregious spelling errors I'm typing on an iPod waiting to be selected for jury duty :-/

Bobs are the answer to almost all of the major problems that modern combo is faced with:
- MUD
- Spell Pierce
- Mystic Remora

Receiving damage from Confidant is not such a big issue in a Tendrils deck, as it is in control shells. You usually find a way to go off before a Confidant flip kills you.

[Killane]

I've been wondering if phylactery lich would make a good phyrexian negator sideboard strategy. Has anyone tried them?

the issue with them is that everyone and thier mother is running Nature's Claims and global artifact bounce. No Phylactery = Dead Lich = Sad Panda. The only place you might want them is vs Workshops, which is worth considering since they win in a fight vs Golems and come down off a single ritual. The thing is, unless they're playing B-Ring Emissary of Despair is likely just better - they must have a mere 3 artifacts in play for the damage to be equal and if they have more the damage is greater, it's a much worse target for thier duplicants, and is has evasion. The only thing it can do is win fight with Golems.

[Djinn]

I initially wanted bobs in my deck but I don't believe him to be an auto include unless you're playing gwsx. There are so many cards that cause significant life loss like fow yawgbarg minds desire etc. In some cases other cards may be better, but that's just my opinion and also varies on meta. I am not saying bob is not good because he is fantastic when played right, just be careful. Also please spare any egregious spelling errors I'm typing on an iPod waiting to be selected for jury duty :-/

Bobs are the answer to almost all of the major problems that modern combo is faced with:
- MUD
- Spell Pierce
- Mystic Remora

Receiving damage from Confidant is not such a big issue in a Tendrils deck, as it is in control shells. You usually find a way to go off before a Confidant flip kills you.

Thats exactly it, as I play a more controllish version of tendrils, and recently there have been a bunch of drain tendrils doing well, which confidant does not fit, which is why I say to be careful when playing with bob.  (E.g., not to see a top 8 drain tendrils deck then throw bobs in it thinking it will get better, just trying to be more clear here, I know that Bob can be an all star in a tendrils deck).

[MagicMan]

So, as I said, I am happy that 2 TPS decks made top 8 and this has re-energized my feelings towards running my fav deck. Some questions for us TPS players to ponder that I have are . . . ?

1. Does Jace merit a spot in future TPS lists? If so how many?

My Take
Im on the fence about this. Jace is obviously amazing but is it focusing to many resources to get one into play with TPS, does it slow us down to much? Im unsure . . . What does the community think?

2. The 2 lists that made it had to different styles 4 preordain for speed and the other a more traditional 4 duress's. Whats better? Opinions?

My Take
I think i prefer the control although I wonder if some combination could work maybe 4 duress and 2-3 preordain, of course how many slots we have depends on question 1. Do we run Jace?

3. IMO MUD seems to be the biggest pain in the ass for this deck. What do we do to beat it? Obv Dark Confidants are a good start, but my personal preference is to stay closer to a normal TPS shell as thats what I like and OBV GenCon proves its still viable.

My Take
 I haven't seen the deck lists for their decks yet but as of this second I have a chain of vapor, hurkyl's, and Rebuild MB with another 2 huryl's and 1 chain SB? is that enough? Do we need to add another color? I would prefer not to, opinions/thoughts?

So just some questions I have about this deck and its future. As I said im not very interested in a BOB even though I know its popular and a helps with the MUD matchup. Im not 100% opposed to running a BOB Tendrils list, but I far and away prefer a more standard and broken TPS list.

[gamegeek2]

So, as I said, I am happy that 2 TPS decks made top 8 and this has re-energized my feelings towards running my fav deck. Some questions for us TPS players to ponder that I have are . . . ?

Couldn't agree more.

1. Does Jace merit a spot in future TPS lists? If so how many?

My Take: No. It's double-blue, and this deck doesn't have enough blue lands to be worth it, and it's no Mind's Desire.

2. The 2 lists that made it had to different styles 4 preordain for speed and the other a more traditional 4 duress's. Whats better? Opinions?

The current list I'm testing has 4 Duress, 1 Misdirection, and 2 Preordain in addition to 4 FoW. It's been pretty good so far, and better than Grim Tutor, so I think I'll keep it until I can find something better.

3. IMO MUD seems to be the biggest pain in the ass for this deck. What do we do to beat it? Obv Dark Confidants are a good start, but my personal preference is to stay closer to a normal TPS shell as thats what I like and OBV GenCon proves its still viable.

I was considering a 3rd bounce spell maindeck, cutting the Misdirection for it; testing against the Champs winning list (less broken than many decks, but it has a lot more disruption, so it's a pretty even tradeoff), however, and against non-MUD decks, it was really underwhelming in testing, and the Misdirection makes a noticeable difference against Vault decks.

I intend to devote at least 4-5 sideboard spaces to MUD in addition to the 4 Bobs in the sideboard already (which have been pretty good against Drains as well). However, I agree that maindeck, I still want to play with a super-broken deck. Bob is nice after sideboard, because they get to remove their inefficient cards, like Trygons and Nature's claims, for REBs and maybe some graveyard hate; so you want a long-term CA engine to power through these more efficient cards.

[Smmenen]

The solution to MUD is to SB Ancient Tombs to power out Hurkyl's/Rebuilds.   The solution to defeating Spell Pierce is slowing down. 

[mmcgeach]

at the risk of asking a dumb question...

I notice both GENCON top 8 decks run Gush, which is a card I haven't seen in TPS decks recently.  I'm wondering what the appeal is?  Obviously it can help going off if you need to pick up something a top-deck tutor put on your library, but other times it seems weaker than Fact or Fiction, which is a card both GENCON lists do not use.

Is GUSH better because it's tricky against shops decks?  How often do you end up using Gush in response to wastelands to save your seas, or while under tanglewire to play an untapped land?  Is Gush part of the reason these TPS decks did well in a heavy-shops metagame?

[Gekoratel]

Is GUSH better because it's tricky against shops decks?  How often do you end up using Gush in response to wastelands to save your seas, or while under tanglewire to play an untapped land?  Is Gush part of the reason these TPS decks did well in a heavy-shops metagame?

I've found Gush to be really poor against Shop decks because one of the most important aspects of the matchup is building up a solid manabase to be able to Hurks/Rebuild them and win or push through a Tinker.  Gush negates any mana development you were able to do.  If I was running Gush in TPS I would board it out against Shops.

[voltron00x]

I’m kind of a Storm novice but from playing / goldfishing with those lists, one common play was that while going off, you can Vamp / Seal / Mystical for a card you need and then Gush into it without adding mana cost and adding +1 storm.  That said, I agree with Jeff, I’d take it out for more bounce spells vs Shops just based on my understanding of how things play out post-board.

[JR]

I've been wondering if phylactery lich would make a good phyrexian negator sideboard strategy. Has anyone tried them?

the issue with them is that everyone and thier mother is running Nature's Claims and global artifact bounce. No Phylactery = Dead Lich = Sad Panda. The only place you might want them is vs Workshops, which is worth considering since they win in a fight vs Golems and come down off a single ritual. The thing is, unless they're playing B-Ring Emissary of Despair is likely just better - they must have a mere 3 artifacts in play for the damage to be equal and if they have more the damage is greater, it's a much worse target for thier duplicants, and is has evasion. The only thing it can do is win fight with Golems.

Not that I disagree with you or are advocating running Lich in the board, but if your opponent is keeping in/boarding in Trygon and Nature's Claim against ritual based combo, you are probably going to do alright anyway.

[Killane]

I've been wondering if phylactery lich would make a good phyrexian negator sideboard strategy. Has anyone tried them?

the issue with them is that everyone and thier mother is running Nature's Claims and global artifact bounce. No Phylactery = Dead Lich = Sad Panda. The only place you might want them is vs Workshops, which is worth considering since they win in a fight vs Golems and come down off a single ritual. The thing is, unless they're playing B-Ring Emissary of Despair is likely just better - they must have a mere 3 artifacts in play for the damage to be equal and if they have more the damage is greater, it's a much worse target for thier duplicants, and is has evasion. The only thing it can do is win fight with Golems.

Not that I disagree with you or are advocating running Lich in the board, but if your opponent is keeping in/boarding in Trygon and Nature's Claim against ritual based combo, you are probably going to do alright anyway.

True, however it may be an issue game 3, and generally Hurkyl's is a fine card to keep in vs Storm since most run Tinker-Bot backup.

[gamegeek2]

My current MD is like this:

4 Delta
1 Tarn
1 Mire
2 U. Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Yawg Win
1 Gifts
1 Bargain
1 Necro
1 Desire
1 Jar
1 Tinker
1 Twister
1 Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 D. Tutor
1 M. Tutor
1 V. Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Time Walk
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor

An explanation - I have a Tarn over Academy because it helps fetch basics against MUD and it is better with Preordain.

[MagicMan]

The solution to MUD is to SB Ancient Tombs to power out Hurkyl's/Rebuilds.   The solution to defeating Spell Pierce is slowing down. 

So what would Smmenen suggested sideboard look like? How many Tombs? If i have 1 chain 1 Hurk, and 1 rebuild MB how many of which of those do I want in My SB along with the Tombs? Would u mind showing us what your potential TPS SB would look like? Keeping in mind I wouldn't be running BOBS MB.

Also what are your thoughts on my first question? To Jace or Not to Jace? I lean towards no Jace and trying to find a way to run the duress's and at least 2 Preordain. At least those are my initial thoughts.

My Current Concoction . . . . Keep in Mind SB is a work in progress

// Lands
    2  Underground Sea
    4  Polluted Delta
    1  Bloodstained Mire
    1  Tolarian Academy
    2  Island
    2  Swamp

// Creatures
    1  Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
    1  Mind's Desire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Time Walk
    1  Timetwister
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Grim Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Imperial Seal
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Force of Will
    1  Ponder
    1  Cabal Ritual
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Memory Jar
    1  Tinker
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1  Rebuild
    4 [ARE] Duress
    1  Brainstorm
    1 [DM] Necropotence
    1 [JGC] Sol Ring
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1 [V09] Mystical Tutor
    1 [V09] Lotus Petal
    1 [V09] Gifts Ungiven
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    3  Preordain
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Hurkyl's Recall

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Chain of Vapor
SB: 2  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Island
SB: 1  Swamp
SB: 1  Infest
SB: 1  Darkblast