Ritual Based Combo in Today's Metagame

[Killane]

Things have been rough, eh?

With the printing of Lodestone Golem, modern builds of Workshop based prison decks have become a metagame monster. TPS, the top dog of modern ritual based combo decks, was built to beat prison decks by functioning under a Trinisphere. The idea is to sculpt a winning hand, cast a bounce spell (Hurkyl's, Rebuild), and win. running out a rock solid base of basic lands enabled this strategy.

Golem makes this less good. Does it still work? Sure, to an extent it does, but never before has Prison had a resistor that also is a 4 turn clock. Their previous fast clock, juggs, was suicide vs TPS.

Then we have GWSx. GWSx is quite good vs shops due to Dark Confidant. Confidant is highly valuable in this matchup, as it provides card advantage, an extra permanent to sack to Smokestack or tap to Wire, and each attack reduces lethal storm by 1. But GWSx does not have a good matchup (in my experience) vs Oath, which is also a current metagame monster. It is slower and less "broken' than TPS, and also has issues running Force of Will.

In my experience, ANT is just not a good deck - it's too easy to disrupt and really CAN'T run Force, which gives it issues vs several decks in the meta. It also has a MUD matchup that's about as appealing as a root canal.

Rituals are at an all-time low. We run the most powerful cards in Vintage (Bargain, Necropotence, Desire, and the full power 9), the most counter-resistant wincons in Storm spells, and generally just win vs any random decks that show up, but we aren't really doing anything right now?

It is my opinion and experience tat any deck this powerful can be tuned to beat the meta. I am proposing work on a Hybrid deck - can we find a Storm build with the power of TPS (or close to it) and the Resilience of GWSx? Can we create the new Perfect Storm?

Here's a starting point - this is what GWSx and TPS lists generally have in common:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Minds Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Chain of vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
5 Moxen
1 Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

2 Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Delta
1 Mire

That leaves 14 open slots. Of these slots, generally at least 1 more land (Academy for TPS, more fetches for GWSx), 1 more Accelerant (3rd Cabal Rit for GWSx, Mana Vault for TPS), and more Control Elements (FoW for TPS, additional bounce and some Thoughtseize for GWSx) are the common elements. GWSx has 4 Bobs and TPS has Tinker-Bot plus High cost bombs like Bargain and Jar.

Can we look at this, this "Core" storm deck with 14 maindeck and 15 sideboard slots, and create a meta monster?

I have some thoughts, but I'd like to see what others think first.

[Tobi]

From your starting-point, 4 cards are not very good vs Shops: 4 Duress. I think these are also possible to cut and play something better, either some bounce or Spell Pierce. Or Drains.
Repeal also seems to be a good card, not especially vs Shops, but in general. Creates storm with own Moxen and gives tempo advantage against opposing Bobs or Oaths.

[Rico Suave]

For reference, this list won a Blue Bell at the beginning of April. 

3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
3 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Confidant
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Necropotence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Sideboard
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Island
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Energy Flux
4 Duress
1 Extirpate
1 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void

[Eastman]

Has anyone had an experience with mystic remora and/or spell pierce in storm?  In very limited testing I found mystic remora to be a good complement to storm decks, because they tend to slow the opponent down and the few extra cards you might draw help to reach the critical mass you need to win.  I used them in concert with bob to make for a pretty good double threat. 

Against shops remora is surprisingly good on the play, not so much on the draw.  But if you get it down first thing you draw off their many artifact sources and permanents, and those extra draws can push you over their lock pieces. 

[Smmenen]

Has anyone had an experience with mystic remora and/or spell pierce in storm?  In very limited testing I found mystic remora to be a good complement to storm decks, because they tend to slow the opponent down and the few extra cards you might draw help to reach the critical mass you need to win.  I used them in concert with bob to make for a pretty good double threat. 

Against shops remora is surprisingly good on the play, not so much on the draw.  But if you get it down first thing you draw off their many artifact sources and permanents, and those extra draws can push you over their lock pieces. 

Last summer, I tested Remora in a TPS shell in lieu of the most marginal spells and mana sources in the deck.   I cut Misdirection, Grim tutor, and two Cabal Rituals for four Mystic Remoras.  I also cut Lotus Petal for another land.   

It looked like this:

Remora TPS:

2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual

1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will
4 Mystic Remora
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire
1 Memory Jar
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Inkwell Leviathan

The experiment was a failure.    While it was insane in goldfishing, it was really bad in practice.    At first, it appeared that Remora was  tactically strong, in that that it was disruptive and could buy time to set up a critical mass and win.  But, what I discovered was that if the Remoras had been the cards I'd cut, I would have either 1) won the game at issue, 2) won the game at issue faster/more easily, or 3) put up more of a fight in losing.   

Remora gives your opponent too much time, and sacrifices many of this decks speed kills.  But it's mostly just worse than the other spells.  I eventually cut 4th remora for petal again, and the deck still sucked. 

   

[Killane]

For reference, this list won a Blue Bell at the beginning of April.  

3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
3 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Confidant
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Necropotence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Sideboard
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Island
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Energy Flux
4 Duress
1 Extirpate
1 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void

This list is really interesting to me, but I have a two concerns:

1. 4 FoW as the only maindeck permission/control, but only 17 blue cards to support them.
2. No Mind's Desire, yet running Academy and 3 Tendrils- seems like a better home for Desire than standard TPS and yet it's missing.

Do you have a link to a tournament report - or at least do you know what matchups this deck faced and who the pilot was? If we can see what he beat we might get a better idea of why the list was successful. The maindeck looks very strong vs Shops, but lack of maindeck duress would worry me given how popular Oath is and the fact that Tezz is not dead by any means.

This list seems like a good starting point. For one thing, cutting Bob to 3 and putting in a blue card might be a good idea- Bob seems dangerous in multiples in this list given the high CMC cards (Fow, Jar, Bargain, etc...), though in GWSx I always liked 2 Bobs on the table. the card i most want is Desire but again concerns regarding high CMC come into play. Thoughts?

[Tempus]

You can find a report here

[Killane]

You can find a report here

I knew there was something familiar about this build- I actually reponded late in that thread.

So the pilot mentioned that Tinker-Jar seemed bad maindeck and wanted to cut it, likely for a tutor and Fact or Fiction, and also had some doubts about Jace. Then there was discussion about Desire, with some pilots saying Desire is nutty in this deck and some saying its terrible due to the high land count. Pesonally, since in some matchups you would board out the extra 2 lands anyway, I'd go with Desire over Jace. Jace shines in the Oath matchup whh is already good for Storm decks, and is really good vs Tezz except you have to land it. Desire is just about the best spell possible vs Tezz and helps to get around heavy permission. I think I'd go there.

Regarding Fact, I've never been a huge fan of it - not that's it's not good it's just not a bomb and I'd like that slot to either be a bomb or a draw spell- and if a draw spell it needs to be better early game. Since the darn DCI won't let me run 4 Brainstorms, I'd like to test See Beyond in that slot - especially since in anything but Fish and MUD it seems to me you might have several occaisions when shuffling back a land would be a good thing, and it helps keep mana costs down for Bobs.

After reading the report, I think I'll reverse my earlier position on 4xBob. I'm not 100% sold, but it seemed to work well for them, so let's try it out. If See Beyond ends up being really good, then maybe 3xBob and 2xSee Beyond would be better.

the pilot also talked about cutting Slaughter Pact from the board, but given the need to have a U and a B answer to Iona in the Oath matchup, I don't think that would be the correct choice anymore.

Here then, is what I'm thinking:

3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
3 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Confidant
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Necropotence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Grim Tutor
1 See Beyond
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Sideboard
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tinker
1 Island
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Energy Flux
4 Duress
1 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void

Thoughts?

[Tobi]

I really like the list, but I think the high land count is not needed in every matchup, and makes Desire and Twister worse. I'd go down to 12 land maindeck and instead play Mana Vault, going to 28 mana and one free slot.
Tinker and Jar are very strong storm jumpstarters, especially since Jar can be hardcast easily. I strongly suggest playing it. Cards that can be cut to make room for it are imo: Grim Tutor, Merchant Scroll and See Beyond. I'd also think about playing Repeal, which is stronger in storm combo than Merchant Scroll and See Beyond.

So, my list would look something like this:

2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Confidant
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Necropotence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
2 Repeal

Sideboard
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Rebuild
1 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Duress/Defense Grid


Inkwell is probably stronger than Sphinx in a deck that has few means to protect it, so I'd go for the shroud monster.

Regarding the blue count, we now have 18 blue cards plus Consultation which acts as 5th Force and 19th blue card.

[Killane]

I like your maindeck allot and I intend to test it. The side seems janky though. Five bounce spells seems like too much, and you def want the full 4 duress vs control. I'd say cut the rebuilds for the 4th duress and a pithing needle, which is good in all sorts of matchups.

[Killane]

sorry for the double post, but the mobile version of the site doesn't allow edits. It just occured to me that the leylines should likely be Jailers, unless we plan to board out Bob vs dredge (which I would not agree with). Jailers are also nice because they are immune to Nature's Claim, are much less effective to bounce than claim. The only issue I can see is getting 2-for-one'd by darkblast, but the blast is less common than it used to be, and with Jailer out it can't be dredged back if coumtered.

[Tobi]

I am still not fully sold on how to board and play against Shops. If the route is massbounce, then you want to have as much as possible.
On the other hand I never felt the need for much sideboard activity against control. I don't want to clog my library with much disruption, firing a draw7 or Desire and hitting a bunch of Duresses and Forces really sucks.

The only control deck that really poses a problem is Remora, when paired with Mindbreak Trap. For this you really want something like Defense Grid, Xantid Swarm or Orim's Chant. A color splash of green or white to the board also creates some options for the boarding plan against Stax. Trygon Predator and Serenity are very nice against artifacts.

Against Dredge it makes sense to spread your hate cards, and not to focus on one or two. This way you make it much more difficult for the Dredge player to board correctly. Any hate is good vs Dredge, so it basically doesn't matter which you play.

[matt_sperling]

When I played ANT for a couple of months (in testing), I was about 45% against MUD...when I won the die roll.  =[   When I was going 2nd, results ranged from frustrating to extremely frustrating.

I never got to try out my sideboard plan of Elvish Spirit Guides and Trygons, but in my head that's where I wanted to be.  Perhaps with a couple of Goyfs, perhaps not. 

On the MUD side of various matchups, I always felt I'd MUCH rather they have some hurkyl's/rebuilds or chewers or rack n ruin than Trygon Predator.  If you're lucky you have like 3 Trisk 2 Duplicant as 6 mana answers, otherwise you're just dead.  Oh, and he ignores Thorns, which is nice in your ritual decks.  In some game 2s (before theyve seen Trygon), I suspect they'll have 4 Thorns and no way to kill the Predator.  In sum, Trygon is the best card against Shops, or at least one of the best cards.

Anyone here considered him for the TPS Sideboard (requires a minimum of 1 Tropical Island/Bayou somewhere in the deck, preferably 2, at which point you get to also play Xantid Swarm against control if you so desire.  2-4 ESG is helpful if you really want to own Stax)? 

In my experience, ANT is just not a good deck - it's too easy to disrupt and really CAN'T run Force, which gives it issues vs several decks in the meta. It also has a MUD matchup that's about as appealing as a root canal.

We have different experiences with ANT.  I love ANT.  If they sit down with Workshop, you're fighting an uphill battle, but so are the other ritual decks.  When the opponent is doing things like tinkering up a robot or playing an Oath or dredging or ritualing themselves, you want to be the guy with ANT, but that's just my take on it.  Consult for Lotus is something I actively ENJOY doing so I'm probably just a freak.

[Killane]

When I played ANT for a couple of months (in testing), I was about 45% against MUD...when I won the die roll.  =[   When I was going 2nd, results ranged from frustrating to extremely frustrating.

I never got to try out my sideboard plan of Elvish Spirit Guides and Trygons, but in my head that's where I wanted to be.  Perhaps with a couple of Goyfs, perhaps not. 

On the MUD side of various matchups, I always felt I'd MUCH rather they have some hurkyl's/rebuilds or chewers or rack n ruin than Trygon Predator.  If you're lucky you have like 3 Trisk 2 Duplicant as 6 mana answers, otherwise you're just dead.  Oh, and he ignores Thorns, which is nice in your ritual decks.  In some game 2s (before theyve seen Trygon), I suspect they'll have 4 Thorns and no way to kill the Predator.  In sum, Trygon is the best card against Shops, or at least one of the best cards.

Anyone here considered him for the TPS Sideboard (requires a minimum of 1 Tropical Island/Bayou somewhere in the deck, preferably 2, at which point you get to also play Xantid Swarm against control if you so desire.  2-4 ESG is helpful if you really want to own Stax)? 

In my experience, ANT is just not a good deck - it's too easy to disrupt and really CAN'T run Force, which gives it issues vs several decks in the meta. It also has a MUD matchup that's about as appealing as a root canal.

We have different experiences with ANT.  I love ANT.  If they sit down with Workshop, you're fighting an uphill battle, but so are the other ritual decks.  When the opponent is doing things like tinkering up a robot or playing an Oath or dredging or ritualing themselves, you want to be the guy with ANT, but that's just my take on it.  Consult for Lotus is something I actively ENJOY doing so I'm probably just a freak.

ANT just seems so very disruptable. Using the list we developed above I tested vs Bant fish today and won 3 of 3 games. In one game, i was able to recover from Meddling Mage on Tendrils + True Believer + a resolved Mindbreak trap on what would have been a lethal Tendrils after exiling Tinker, Colssus and Desire when consulting for Tendrils - all with a Null Rod having been played turn one followed by consecutive Tarmogoyfs. You just don't get that kind of resilliance from ANT, and it has serious issues dealing with heavy permission coupled with disruption. In a metagame that consists almost entirely of MUD and decks running 10+ permission spells (Tez,Oath,Fish), the only matchup I'd want ANT for is Dredge - but TPS already has a good Dredge matchup.

Regarding Trygon, this seems like an interesting idea, except adapting the manabase to splash a 3rd color vs a ma denial deck seems counter-intuitive.

As a shop player, how woudl you feel about seeing your opponent play a turn 1 Bitterblossom?

[GrandpaBelcher]

I never got to try out my sideboard plan of Elvish Spirit Guides and Trygons, but in my head that's where I wanted to be.  Perhaps with a couple of Goyfs, perhaps not. 

This is essentially what I've found as well.  One-shot removal like Ingot Chewer or Ancient Grudge just doesn't do enough -- MUD plays another sphere and the game continues.  Hurkyl's and Rebuild were nice, except that they put the cards back in the hand, so the only time they were really effective was on the Workshop player's endstep.  The best answers (and I used these in addition to Hurkyl's) were permanent and recurring: Viashino Heretic, Trygon Predator, Energy Flux, etc.  Unfortunately, they cost three.

[matt_sperling]

Regarding Trygon, this seems like an interesting idea, except adapting the manabase to splash a 3rd color vs a ma denial deck seems counter-intuitive.

As a shop player, how woudl you feel about seeing your opponent play a turn 1 Bitterblossom?

I wouldn't advocate splashing for an effect like rack n ruin or nature's claim, but Trygon is so devastating it presents an interesting reward to offset the risk.  They aren't a mana denial deck when you resolve Trygon, theyre a "kill trygon or scoop" deck, if that makes any sense.  As for him costing 3, this is more problematic downside.  Under 1 Thorn, his cost is the same as Hurkyl's, so there's that.  Also, whereas Hurkyl's needs to wait for the later stages when you're ready to go off, Trygon should get cast ASAP, meaning his cost is going to be on average cheaper than Hurkyl's all things considered.

Bitterblossom is good against Shop.  Patrick Chapin played me with a Vintage Faeries deck he designed while we were in Puerto Rico, and BB seemed very good.  Of the couple of games he cast it, one game I killed him with his BB and his 2 Bobs, but I got pretty lucky to do so.  BB definitely worth exploring.

[Demonic Attorney]

We have different experiences with ANT.  I love ANT.  If they sit down with Workshop, you're fighting an uphill battle, but so are the other ritual decks.  When the opponent is doing things like tinkering up a robot or playing an Oath or dredging or ritualing themselves, you want to be the guy with ANT, but that's just my take on it.  Consult for Lotus is something I actively ENJOY doing so I'm probably just a freak.

Can you elaborate on your experiences with ANT?  I ask because I occasionally play combo decks, and gave ANT a try when the deck first came to prominence after Ad Nauseam was printed.  My experiences were largely negative.  I didn't attain anywhere close to the level of consistency I was getting out of Long or TPS.

To summarize my problems in the most basic terms possible, I concluded that I needed a combination of three things, early, in order to win with the deck:  Acceleration, Protection, and an Ad Nauseam.  And I could just never seem to get access to these three resources in the appropriate ratio.  I'd draw hands with 5 mana sources and 2 counters, and mulligan to 2 counters, a Duress, an Ad Nauseam, a tutor, a land, and an off-color Mox.  By the time I was able to find the necessary components to make the deck work, it was often too late.

Of course, these differences in our experience could be explained by differences in our lists.  But I tried a card-for-card copy of a list that won a tournament at the time, and got the same results.

[matt_sperling]

We have different experiences with ANT.  I love ANT.  If they sit down with Workshop, you're fighting an uphill battle, but so are the other ritual decks.  When the opponent is doing things like tinkering up a robot or playing an Oath or dredging or ritualing themselves, you want to be the guy with ANT, but that's just my take on it.  Consult for Lotus is something I actively ENJOY doing so I'm probably just a freak.

Can you elaborate on your experiences with ANT?  I ask because I occasionally play combo decks, and gave ANT a try when the deck first came to prominence after Ad Nauseam was printed.  My experiences were largely negative.  I didn't attain anywhere close to the level of consistency I was getting out of Long or TPS.

To summarize my problems in the most basic terms possible, I concluded that I needed a combination of three things, early, in order to win with the deck:  Acceleration, Protection, and an Ad Nauseam.  And I could just never seem to get access to these three resources in the appropriate ratio.  I'd draw hands with 5 mana sources and 2 counters, and mulligan to 2 counters, a Duress, an Ad Nauseam, a tutor, a land, and an off-color Mox.  By the time I was able to find the necessary components to make the deck work, it was often too late.

Of course, these differences in our experience could be explained by differences in our lists.  But I tried a card-for-card copy of a list that won a tournament at the time, and got the same results.

I'll begin my explanation of why I like ANT by addressing what Killane said:

ANT just seems so very disruptable. Using the list we developed above I tested vs Bant fish today and won 3 of 3 games. In one game, i was able to recover from Meddling Mage on Tendrils + True Believer + a resolved Mindbreak trap on what would have been a lethal Tendrils after exiling Tinker, Colssus and Desire when consulting for Tendrils - all with a Null Rod having been played turn one followed by consecutive Tarmogoyfs. You just don't get that kind of resilliance from ANT

I play 3 Chain of Vapor and as such care very little about MM on Tendrils or True Believer.  MM on Ad Nauseum is better against ANT, so assuming they know to name it, you still just need to dig up one of your chains, but now you can't use Ad Naus to do so.  Null Rod is good against you but you have rituals and a maindeck hurkyl's/3 chains to get it off the board.  Keep in mind these are the best things the opponent can be doing against you, dropping cheap disruptive permanents, and often it isn't enough.  

[EDIT: TPS is better against Fish than ANT, I don't mean to argue otherwise.  Just saying the deck is subtly resiliant due to Chain of Vapor and a quick kill]

In general terms, responding to DA's concerns, the deck has alot of redundancy on each front: mana, protection, business.  Necro and Yawg are often just as lethal as Ad Naus, and the tutors provide obvious additional help.  A combo deck can always have the wrong mix of pieces, but in my experience ANT has enough redundancy at each level to be consistent.  Hard to say much else about the deck's consistency other than my experience and my list.

My list is like the following link, except -1 Hurkyl's +1 Chain of Vapor, -1 Delta -1 Island, +2 City of Traitors (Badlands is a Bayou in my list due to sideboard).  http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35689   [EDIT: Brain fart, I play 4 Delta 0 Mire as the fetches]

[personalbackfire]

You can find a report here

I knew there was something familiar about this build- I actually reponded late in that thread.

So the pilot mentioned that Tinker-Jar seemed bad maindeck and wanted to cut it, likely for a tutor and Fact or Fiction, and also had some doubts about Jace. Then there was discussion about Desire, with some pilots saying Desire is nutty in this deck and some saying its terrible due to the high land count. Pesonally, since in some matchups you would board out the extra 2 lands anyway, I'd go with Desire over Jace. Jace shines in the Oath matchup whh is already good for Storm decks, and is really good vs Tezz except you have to land it. Desire is just about the best spell possible vs Tezz and helps to get around heavy permission. I think I'd go there.

Regarding Fact, I've never been a huge fan of it - not that's it's not good it's just not a bomb and I'd like that slot to either be a bomb or a draw spell- and if a draw spell it needs to be better early game. Since the darn DCI won't let me run 4 Brainstorms, I'd like to test See Beyond in that slot - especially since in anything but Fish and MUD it seems to me you might have several occaisions when shuffling back a land would be a good thing, and it helps keep mana costs down for Bobs.

After reading the report, I think I'll reverse my earlier position on 4xBob. I'm not 100% sold, but it seemed to work well for them, so let's try it out. If See Beyond ends up being really good, then maybe 3xBob and 2xSee Beyond would be better.

the pilot also talked about cutting Slaughter Pact from the board, but given the need to have a U and a B answer to Iona in the Oath matchup, I don't think that would be the correct choice anymore.

Here then, is what I'm thinking:

3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
3 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Confidant
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Necropotence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Grim Tutor
1 See Beyond
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Sideboard
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tinker
1 Island
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Energy Flux
4 Duress
1 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void

Thoughts?

I was the original builder/pilot of the deck, I also ran the deck -tinker/jar +fof & repeal at the next bluebell and top 8ed it.
 
About the deck: It was built to beat MUD. At the time I was worried that MUD would be all over the place so I wanted to play a deck that would be good against that. The high land count is a direct result of this, as well as the 3 Bounce spells, 4 Bobs, and lack of Duress/Seize maindeck. Someone mentioned cutting down a dark confidant, I personally would not do that. Bob is one of the strongest cards in the deck and the more the better usually. The deck had 3 tendrils in it so if life ever really mattered you could just mini tendrils and be on your way. I don't think I ever lost a game with the deck when I had 2 Bobs on the table and they stuck around for a bit.  Minds desire also does not fit in of what you are trying to do with the deck, which was beat MUD. Minds desire actually is pretty terrible in shop matchups. On a side note, Necro is also pretty bad in this deck, but thats besides the point. Jace was really good from the point forward, he is another card that if he sticks around for more then a turn you feel like you cant lose. I would rather play him then FoF or any junk like that.  If you are looking at replacements Impulse has been pretty strong for me in other Tendrils decks and worth considering as it lets you see 4 cards, which is a lot at instant speed.

I personally wouldn't just pick up the deck and play it and expect results. I think you need to ask yourself a few questions like what are you likely to face? If you think your going to face a good bit of Blue decks then adding duress to the maindeck, cutting a land, and a bounce spell might be correct. I think in terms of storm people really need to try and think of what they are up against and pick a deck, or cards accordingly. There are times when it is better just to play TPS, but then again there are times when its better to play with Bob, 4 duress, 0 Duress, its all about what you think will be showing up.

On a last note, I lost two matches at the last bluebell with this (one being the top 8 match aginst Rico). Demonic Consult lost me a game in each of those matches so I would be careful with the card. There has been many times its been good, but it is a card if you play aggressively you can lose.

[3eowulf]

About ANT:
Kind of fun how the maindeck hasn't almost changed in more than one year.

Unfortunately I believe the deck to be unplayable given the bad MUD matchup, and its recent strenghtnening thanks to the printing of Lodestone Golem, even if I admit I didn't spend much time to test the deck after last summer. Still a friend of mine has just rebuilt it, and it seems still a bomb against the other decks in the meta.

I'm curious to know what are your sideboard solutions, since it's the deck most variable part.

[matt_sperling]

About ANT:
Kind of fun how the maindeck hasn't almost changed in more than one year.

Unfortunately I believe the deck to be unplayable given the bad MUD matchup, and its recent strenghtnening thanks to the printing of Lodestone Golem, even if I admit I didn't spend much time to test the deck after last summer. Still a friend of mine has just rebuilt it, and it seems still a bomb against the other decks in the meta.

I'm curious to know what are your sideboard solutions, since it's the deck most variable part.

As mentioned above, I don't have a sideboard fully fleshed out, but I would hedge strongly towards anti-MUD for obvious reasons.

Here is an UNtested initial sketch of a sideboard:
4 Trygon Predator
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Tropical Island (recall that I play 1 Bayou main).

[desolutionist]

Here's the list I've been playing:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual

4 See Beyond
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Brassman once told me that he didn't like Ritual-based storm decks because they didn't have anything good to do with two mana; what you normally have on turn 1 without any sort of Ritual investment.  See Beyond fills that void quite nicely.  It isn't Brainstorm, but it's a good blue card.  I'm not playing a Robot and that was an accident when I put the deck together, but I ended up liking it that way... The robot is fine in the sideboard.

Things have been rough, eh?

With the printing of Lodestone Golem, modern builds of Workshop based prison decks have become a metagame monster. TPS, the top dog of modern ritual based combo decks, was built to beat prison decks by functioning under a Trinisphere. The idea is to sculpt a winning hand, cast a bounce spell (Hurkyl's, Rebuild), and win. running out a rock solid base of basic lands enabled this strategy.

idk, things haven't been rough for me.  Sideboard a couple of basics and 3 more Hurkyl's and you'll beat Shops every time.

[personalbackfire]

I really like the list, but I think the high land count is not needed in every matchup, and makes Desire and Twister worse. I'd go down to 12 land maindeck and instead play Mana Vault, going to 28 mana and one free slot.
Tinker and Jar are very strong storm jumpstarters, especially since Jar can be hardcast easily. I strongly suggest playing it. Cards that can be cut to make room for it are imo: Grim Tutor, Merchant Scroll and See Beyond. I'd also think about playing Repeal, which is stronger in storm combo than Merchant Scroll and See Beyond.

So, my list would look something like this:

2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Confidant
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Necropotence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
2 Repeal

Sideboard
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Rebuild
1 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Duress/Defense Grid


Inkwell is probably stronger than Sphinx in a deck that has few means to protect it, so I'd go for the shroud monster.

Regarding the blue count, we now have 18 blue cards plus Consultation which acts as 5th Force and 19th blue card.

The problem I have with the changes you made are that I think it makes the deck worse overall. Adding Repeal, Mana Vault, and Minds desire only increased the blue count, at the expense of worsening the Shop matchup. I, or you, would need to test to see if the shop matchup is still favorable at a configuration like this but I doubt it. Repeal is good against Chalice but thats about it, and cutting down to 12 lands has to worsen the decks reliability considerably. Also, in the two tournaments I played, I never had a problem with having blue cards to pitch to force, so I'm not sure I'd be too concerned about that. I don't think tinker/jar or Minds desire is good in this style deck either but I hope they work out for you. It is possible that  playing Tinker/Jar and Desire gives you more "business" spells which in return would make them better then they were for me.

I also wouldn't play Inkwell either because you are really only siding in tinker/robot against Fish and Shops. Sphinx is just strictly better in these matchups....

[waikiki]

In my ANT list I use serenity to help the mud matchup. Together with tinker robot and confidants. I actually transform in some sort of gwsx.

[Killane]

I really like the list, but I think the high land count is not needed in every matchup, and makes Desire and Twister worse. I'd go down to 12 land maindeck and instead play Mana Vault, going to 28 mana and one free slot.
Tinker and Jar are very strong storm jumpstarters, especially since Jar can be hardcast easily. I strongly suggest playing it. Cards that can be cut to make room for it are imo: Grim Tutor, Merchant Scroll and See Beyond. I'd also think about playing Repeal, which is stronger in storm combo than Merchant Scroll and See Beyond.

So, my list would look something like this:

(LIST)


Inkwell is probably stronger than Sphinx in a deck that has few means to protect it, so I'd go for the shroud monster.

Regarding the blue count, we now have 18 blue cards plus Consultation which acts as 5th Force and 19th blue card.

The problem I have with the changes you made are that I think it makes the deck worse overall. Adding Repeal, Mana Vault, and Minds desire only increased the blue count, at the expense of worsening the Shop matchup. I, or you, would need to test to see if the shop matchup is still favorable at a configuration like this but I doubt it. Repeal is good against Chalice but thats about it, and cutting down to 12 lands has to worsen the decks reliability considerably. Also, in the two tournaments I played, I never had a problem with having blue cards to pitch to force, so I'm not sure I'd be too concerned about that. I don't think tinker/jar or Minds desire is good in this style deck either but I hope they work out for you. It is possible that  playing Tinker/Jar and Desire gives you more "business" spells which in return would make them better then they were for me.

I also wouldn't play Inkwell either because you are really only siding in tinker/robot against Fish and Shops. Sphinx is just strictly better in these matchups....

Agree regarding Inkwell, though to be fair fish has far fewer ways of dealing with Inky as they do with Sphinx, however the need to protect it abit is offset buy th fact that it's virtually impossible to race. Starting from 20 with them getting the first attack, Sphinx races 3 6/7 Goyfs and Wins (theyswing, you block one and the lifelink essentially blocks another, you take 6, then swing back and gain it back, so essentially you coudl add another 5 power on thier side and still win the race. Redic.) Inky does not.  (obv)

The list as presented above does loose so game game 1 vs MUD, however it's still more resiliant than TPS given the Bobs and repeals and has better game vs something like Oath. Here's my board;

4 x Yixlid Jailer
1 x Bojuka Bog
1 x Island
1 x Pithing Needle
2 x Hurkyl's Recall
1 x Robot
4 x Duress
1 x Extirpate

So you get the Robot, 2 more lands, a Pithing Needle, and 2 more bounce spells for rounds two and three, dropping Desire, Jar, Bargain and.... I'm not sure what else yet. Do you really think this is that much worse overall vs Shops, to the extend that it's not worth the additional explosiveness vs Oath/dredge and the power of Desire vs Control?

[personalbackfire]

The list as presented above does loose so game game 1 vs MUD, however it's still more resiliant than TPS given the Bobs and repeals and has better game vs something like Oath. Here's my board;

4 x Yixlid Jailer
1 x Bojuka Bog
1 x Island
1 x Pithing Needle
2 x Hurkyl's Recall
1 x Robot
4 x Duress
1 x Extirpate

So you get the Robot, 2 more lands, a Pithing Needle, and 2 more bounce spells for rounds two and three, dropping Desire, Jar, Bargain and.... I'm not sure what else yet. Do you really think this is that much worse overall vs Shops, to the extend that it's not worth the additional explosiveness vs Oath/dredge and the power of Desire vs Control?

I don't know how it will play out vs shops to be honest, assuming were talking about a list with 12 lands. One of the number one things in the matchup is to hit lands, more specifically basics all day long. I would have to double check but I am pretty sure I even boarded a 15th land for the matchup.  I also liked the one of energy flux as its pretty good against workshop decks in general and I didn't feel the need for another mass bounce. I had 2 main deck and an additional 1 or 2 in the sideboard I believe already. If I were looking for cards to cut I would probably start with Desire if its in the deck, FoF, Jace. I usually don't board out Bargain when I'm playing TPS but I do think  it makes alittle more sense here. If you're running Grim you should also cut that. Are you just bringing in Pithing Needle since its in your sideboard already or do you specifically think its good against Shops/Mud and why?

Again if you rather beat Oath, perhaps playing Duress maindeck is the call, or just playing TPS in general might be better. At the time I thought MUD to be a lot more popular.  When playing against Oath you do have to play Bobs pretty aggressively to try and get value out of them. It only takes a turn or two to build up critical mass, and if they play Oath and oath  up sphinx it pretty much is like a timewalk.

[Tobi]

The MUD matchup is tough no matter what you do. Therefore I question if it is right to weaken your maindeck in favor of a slightly better MUD matchup in exchange for a weaker matchup against the rest.

Basically, you have the following chances to win against MUD:
1. first turn kill on the play, on the draw with FoW on opponents 1st turn sphere
2. Tinker up a robot that goes the way
3. build up mana, massbounce EOT and win
4. Control the game with artifact hate (Trygon, EFlux, Serenity, ...)

Option 1 happens very rarely, even if you trim your maindeck towards more 1st turn kills. Also you need to be on the play, on the draw it is much harder.
Option 2 sounds like a good plan, but good MUD players will anticipate your tinker plan. Usually they board in Duplicants and/or Sculting Steel, and also have the option to Tangle Wire you out or solve it with Smokestack.
Option 3 is fine as long as the opponent doesn't put any pressure on you. Golem is the biggest threat to this plan. Also, every Sphere delays it by one turn, and Wires force you to bounce in your upkeep. Bob helps this plan, but also puts pressure on your own life totals, so this one is also a tough one. In addition, there is the challenge of having a massbounce for the EOT bounce, and then the bomb to win.
Option 4 is a good plan, but hard to achieve with a deck that plays no countermagic besides Forces. It seems Serenities are a good option since they remove all of the opponent's board, leaving lands only. Fluxes are also very nice, but cost 3 and may be played around with Metalworker. Once on the board, Fluxes provide a huge amount of time in which you may build up for a winning turn.

So to me, a mix of Fluxes and bounce would be optimal, sideboarding out a lot of bombs that are usually not useful in this matchup (Bargain, Necro, Twister, Desire, Gifts, ...) leaving you with a deck of solid mana, 4 Bobs, Fluxes, bounce and 3 Tendrils.

[covetousrat]

Can anyone brief me on Intuition Tendrils. I couldn't seem to get much info around other than a premier of it. It seems to be faster than TPS but focuses more on the Yawgmoth's will game 1. What happen to it after a brief period of success? It seems that TPS has taken over sometime during 2008. With the restriction of Brainstorm it seems to loss some edge. However cards like Ponder, Imperial seal and Merchant scrolls fills this slot. Do you think it can compete in today against Stax, Fish and Oath?

[Killane]

The list as presented above does loose so game game 1 vs MUD, however it's still more resiliant than TPS given the Bobs and repeals and has better game vs something like Oath. Here's my board;

4 x Yixlid Jailer
1 x Bojuka Bog
1 x Island
1 x Pithing Needle
2 x Hurkyl's Recall
1 x Robot
4 x Duress
1 x Extirpate

So you get the Robot, 2 more lands, a Pithing Needle, and 2 more bounce spells for rounds two and three, dropping Desire, Jar, Bargain and.... I'm not sure what else yet. Do you really think this is that much worse overall vs Shops, to the extend that it's not worth the additional explosiveness vs Oath/dredge and the power of Desire vs Control?

I don't know how it will play out vs shops to be honest, assuming were talking about a list with 12 lands. One of the number one things in the matchup is to hit lands, more specifically basics all day long. I would have to double check but I am pretty sure I even boarded a 15th land for the matchup.  I also liked the one of energy flux as its pretty good against workshop decks in general and I didn't feel the need for another mass bounce. I had 2 main deck and an additional 1 or 2 in the sideboard I believe already. If I were looking for cards to cut I would probably start with Desire if its in the deck, FoF, Jace. I usually don't board out Bargain when I'm playing TPS but I do think  it makes alittle more sense here. If you're running Grim you should also cut that. Are you just bringing in Pithing Needle since its in your sideboard already or do you specifically think its good against Shops/Mud and why?

Again if you rather beat Oath, perhaps playing Duress maindeck is the call, or just playing TPS in general might be better. At the time I thought MUD to be a lot more popular.  When playing against Oath you do have to play Bobs pretty aggressively to try and get value out of them. It only takes a turn or two to build up critical mass, and if they play Oath and oath  up sphinx it pretty much is like a timewalk.

Here's the thing - I want to beat both MUD and Oath - they both show up in large numbers.

Many shop decks in my area (and I get the sense, in general) run Goblin Welder. Pithing Needle can be an invaluable play vs Welder. Additionaly, if they don't have welder Needle on Strip Mine makes your basics invulnerable, and UbaStax sees some play in my area, so needle on Bazaar can be avaluable play as well. Additionally, it's another cheep permanento Tap to Wire or at least resort sac to Smokestack. Is it the best card vs Shops? No, but it is good enough and it's in the board for its versitility.

[Killane]

Can anyone brief me on Intuition Tendrils. I couldn't seem to get much info around other than a premier of it. It seems to be faster than TPS but focuses more on the Yawgmoth's will game 1. What happen to it after a brief period of success? It seems that TPS has taken over sometime during 2008. With the restriction of Brainstorm it seems to loss some edge. However cards like Ponder, Imperial seal and Merchant scrolls fills this slot. Do you think it can compete in today against Stax, Fish and Oath?

I don't know much about intuition tendrils, and you might have more luck starting a topic about it, with a decklist you found, etc....

what I do want to address is your statement regarding Ponder, Seal and Scroll taking the place of Brainstorm. They don't. BS is card selection par none- it diggs 3 deep at instant speed for U and maintains card parity, if not actual card advantage. Ponder is very clunky and doesn't get chaff out of your hand, to then shuffle away. Seal is actually card disadvantage, and while a powerful card it's not right for fast combo- it's a set-up card which is why it works inTPS. Scroll....well it's scroll. It's good at what it does, but what it does (normally) is not tutorting up BS, but rather Ancestral, FoW, or a bounce spell. It's a different card than BS altogether.