Pyromancer Ascension

[desolutionist]

I've been having a lot of fun playing this deck but unfortunately think it isn't quite good enough for tournaments:

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Preordain
4 See Beyond
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Manamorphose
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Mind's Desire

[Delha]

Have you tested any spells with Rebound? How about Infernal Tutor or Intuition? Perhaps the new Relearn?

[BruiZar]

It needs gamble's and lava darts.

[serracollector]

-4 Duress

+1 Time Twister, after Ascension has the counters, cards in grave don't matter.
+1 Windfall, great for chucking cards, and drawing cards.
+1 Frantic Search, read above.
+1 Thirst for Knowledge or Intuition or Fact or Fiction, read above.

[Bill Copes]

Intuition for 3x Lava Dart would get this thing online pretty quickly.

[Thegreatgonzo]

careful study looks like a no brainer in ascension.deck

[Delha]

Intuition for 3x Lava Dart would get this thing online pretty quickly.

Intuition into 3x Cabal Therapy would be pretty disgusting too.

[desolutionist]

Good ideas guys!  I don't know why I didn't think of Intuition...  Gamble also seems quite good.

If this deck didn't rely on the graveyard, I'd say it is pretty good.  I've already banged out quite a few turn one kills *without* Intuition-Lava Dart

Perhaps in Game 2 and 3 you can side out the Ascensions for Kiln Fiends!

[Bill Copes]

Has 18 sources been enough?  Lotus Petal?

How about the Intuition engine with AK and Lava Dart?  Accumulated Knowledge and P. Ascension would be ridiculous together.

This is what I'd try (It's 61 cards . . . can't figure out what to cut . . .):

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt

4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Preordain
4 See Beyond
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Lava Dart
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Manamorphose
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Mind's Desire

[TopSecret]

Would a single Raven's Crime or Flame Jab be good in this deck?

Also, and this might be getting into super jank world, but what about Street Wraith and Repeal?

@ Abdullah   Could you cut a Manamorphose or a Lightning Bolt?

[Killane]

Has 18 sources been enough?  Lotus Petal?

How about the Intuition engine with AK and Lava Dart?  Accumulated Knowledge and P. Ascension would be ridiculous together.

This is what I'd try (It's 61 cards . . . can't figure out what to cut . . .):

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt

4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Preordain
4 See Beyond
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Lava Dart
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Manamorphose
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Mind's Desire

For a cut, you might consider removing Tinker-Bot to the sideboard and adding a Lotus Petal. plenty of combo decks are boarding the obot these days, and without Jar you don;t need Tinker maindeck. I really don't see anything you'd want to straight up cut.

[desolutionist]

With Lava Dart in the deck, I'd cut the Lightning Bolts and keep Preordain.

[ArtOvWar]

Why dont you run Call to Mind?

You can go infi turns with that and a time walk....

[Delha]

Why dont you run Call to Mind?

You can go infi turns with that and a time walk....

I thought of this, but figured it wasn't worth it since you need 2x Call to Mind. Getting two with regularity probably means running a full 4, which kinda sucks.

[ArtOvWar]

Why dont you run Call to Mind?

You can go infi turns with that and a time walk....

I thought of this, but figured it wasn't worth it since you need 2x Call to Mind. Getting two with regularity probably means running a full 4, which kinda sucks.

Intution for:
Call to Mind
Time Walk
Call to Mind

Dunno how hard that is lol.

[Tobi]

Intution for:
Call to Mind
Time Walk
Call to Mind

Dunno how hard that is lol.

So opponent gives you Time Walk and you get 2 extra turns. Pretty strong.

[Lemnear]

5 mana Time stretch ... Solid play *cough*

How's think twice? Maybe too slow but a nice setup with Intuition and PA in the field

[ArtOvWar]

5 mana Time stretch ... Solid play *cough*

How's think twice? Maybe too slow but a nice setup with Intuition and PA in the field

How u wanna kill then? With an ETW for a bunch of tokens and no way to finish it that turn.
Burning down ur opponent with 7 burn spells?

[nineisnoone]

Would things like...

Burning Inquiry 
- Draw 3, Discard 3 at random
Control of the Court/Goblin Lore   
- Draw 4, Discard 3 at random

be really good in this deck?  You power through your deck and stack your graveyard to trigger Ascension.  

[Lemnear]

How u wanna kill then? With an ETW for a bunch of tokens and no way to finish it that turn.
Burning down ur opponent with 7 burn spells?

I don't Know that this has to do with think twice replacing something like the knowledges for carddraw out of intuition. Don't this deck lack a Win-now-condition in general atm? I would try this http://www.magiccards.info/rav/en/208.html. Mill yourself to get copies in your grave and blow opponents lib with it and PA

[Delha]

5 mana Time stretch ... Solid play *cough*

How's think twice? Maybe too slow but a nice setup with Intuition and PA in the field

How u wanna kill then? With an ETW for a bunch of tokens and no way to finish it that turn.
Burning down ur opponent with 7 burn spells?

Good job ignoring the gaping hole pointed out in your suggested strat. Since you're assuming Ascension is already active, I should point out that it takes 3 Bolts to finish them, not 7. Since Intu->Lava Dart is the cleanest way to activate, you've likely dealt 2 damage to them already. Also note that you've got flashback on the other two Darts in the grave, should you need it.

With Fiend/Spitfire on the table, 1 Bolt is enough.

[NilsH]

Just some thoughts without having tested the deck:

Would Muddle the Mixture be good to find Pyromancer Ascension? Or too janky?
For those of you trying Careful Study and the like; how about Bazaar? It fills your GY fast.
Quiet Speculation is even faster than Intuition, but Intuition is less narrow. QS could get A.Grudge, L.Dart, C.Therapy.

As for win condition besides Burn... maybe test Roar of the Wurm (or something simular)? It seems clunky, but it is played with sucsess in "The Solution" by Cesar Fernandez and have great synergy with both Ascension and Intution/QS.

...andYawgmoth's Will is also a great way of ending games, espesially with a big GY like this deck.

[NilsH]

I've been working on a build implementing Quiet Speculation as an engine.

Mana - 23
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Counters - 8
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce

Draw, Combo and Setup - 24
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Preordain
4 Quiet Speculation
3 Deep Analysis
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Lavadart
3 Call to Mind
1 Regrowth

Misc - 5
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Vampiric Tutor

I tried using as much 4-ofs as possible to make it easy to activate Ascension. Quiet Speculation has been good with Grudges and DA. Lavadart feels a bit janky, but they take out Confidants, Selkie and other x/1s. They can also activate Ascension fast.

The decks win with infinite turns with Time Walk and Call to Mind/Regrowth, and then end the game with Lavadart and Call to Mind/Regrowth (You can alternate between getting back Lavadart and Time Walk with Call to Mind/Regrowth when the combo is assembled).
Against decks without counters another option is to force them to draw all their cards by recurring Ancestral Recall.

I'm not settled on the numbers on some cards. A third Grudge would by nice, and I would also like to try Wheel of Fortune.

The sideboard should include the last Grudges and some Ray of Revaltions. Roar of the Wurm might be good to stop aggro.

[Delha]

I've been working on a build implementing Quiet Speculation as an engine.

[snip]

Why no Intuition? It's flat out amazing for turning on Ascension, even w/out Lava Dart.

[meadbert]

Raven's Crime with Intuition sounded pretty busted to me.

Also, consider Life From the Loam since you can just redredge it when you want to get Pyromancer online.

I would say 4 Quiet Speculations and 4 Intuitions are the way to go.

[NilsH]

I've been working on a build implementing Quiet Speculation as an engine.

[snip]

Why no Intuition? It's flat out amazing for turning on Ascension, even w/out Lava Dart.

My first build had Int-AK, but I found it slow. The easier casting of QS makes a difference. Also, searching for 3 AK with Intuition is not the best way to turn on Ascension. When Ascension is on the table you want a mix of DA, Grudge and LDart (depending on your hand, board etc).
That being said, I've never tried both Intuition and QS in the same list. I think this warrant testing. In my limited testing I run out of targets for my third (and forth) QS. Maybe a 3-2 split between the QS and Int could be good? (Or I could include more targets for QS).

There are some dissynergy between a sorcery speed engine (QS-DA) and counter magic, at least in theory. Any thoughts? Would Daze be good, as I can tap out during my own turn and still have a soft counter?

@Meadbert: I think you will have a hard time fitting both Ascension, Intution, QS - with targets, Loam and Ravens Crime in the same deck. Remember you have to keep as many 4-ofs as possible to activate Ascension. I remember seeing a list with Int, Loam, R Crime, Mox D and Gifts in one of Smmmen's articles but I can't find it...  

[Delha]

Why no Intuition? It's flat out amazing for turning on Ascension, even w/out Lava Dart.

My first build had Int-AK, but I found it slow. The easier casting of QS makes a difference. Also, searching for 3 AK with Intuition is not the best way to turn on Ascension. When Ascension is on the table you want a mix of DA, Grudge and LDart (depending on your hand, board etc).

If you're digging up 3x AK, you're probably doing it wrong. You should arguably be grabbing Lava Darts, I can't offhand think of any other package that turns on Ascension as efficiently.

If for some reason you're not grabbing Darts, you should instead be grabbing three copies of a singleton you're already holding. That means you get two copies in hand and two in the grave, and flashback isn't even necessary at that point.

[NilsH]

Why no Intuition? It's flat out amazing for turning on Ascension, even w/out Lava Dart.

My first build had Int-AK, but I found it slow. The easier casting of QS makes a difference. Also, searching for 3 AK with Intuition is not the best way to turn on Ascension. When Ascension is on the table you want a mix of DA, Grudge and LDart (depending on your hand, board etc).

If you're digging up 3x AK, you're probably doing it wrong. You should arguably be grabbing Lava Darts, I can't offhand think of any other package that turns on Ascension as efficiently.

Yupp, that was my point. As Int-AK was underwhelming both with and without Ascension on the table I cut the AKs for DAs. DAs were strictly better. With that change I also swapped Int for QS.

As for changes in the list I suggest that these chould be cut first:
-1 QS
-1 Call to Mind
-1 Lotus Petal

In these slots I would like to test:
2 Intution
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Roar of the Wurm (A faster win condition could be nice. And I don't want to lose to a Extripate target my Lava Dart)
 

[Delha]

If you're digging up 3x AK, you're probably doing it wrong. You should arguably be grabbing Lava Darts, I can't offhand think of any other package that turns on Ascension as efficiently.

Yupp, that was my point. As Int-AK was underwhelming both with and without Ascension on the table I cut the AKs for DAs. DAs were strictly better. With that change I also swapped Int for QS.

I think you're missing the point. While I agree AK should not be in the deck, Intuition for DA is also wrong. The entire point of Intu->Dart is that you get Ascension active on the cheap. QS->DA costs , which is still nearly twice what you pay with Dart. Swapping Intu for Quiet Spec to enable DA is a case of changing your deck to enable a weaker play, at the expense of the stronger play already available to you.

If you've got a Preordain in hand, Intu for 3xPreordain costs , also significantly cheaper than the DA path. To top it off, you can split that cost w/out passing back the turn. EOT Intu->Dart->Walk/Call is doable with three lands on the board when you start going off. Nothing similar is possible with QS+DA.

[Darkenslight]

I'd keep the AKs in.  Then I'd Intuition for piles like AK, Dart, Dart.  That seems ridiculous with a Pyro in play.  Int EoT, then cast Dart and an AK - Pyro's online.