Anti-Trygon Cards for MUD

[Smmenen]

Trygon Predator is a menace for Workshop players.   But there are plenty of answers for y'all to consider.   Let's a thread brainstorming answers, and weighing the advantages and disadvantages of them.  

Assuming a Trygon slips through, what's good against it?

(1) Maze of Ith is very effective at answering Trygon, but it's unreliable to find it in time.   Meadbert does run Expedition maps...

(2) Triskelion can murder Predator, as can (3) Razormane (if it comes down first), or Duplicant (4).  

(5) Sundering Titan can make life hell for the Predator player, particular if Tabernacle and Null Rod are also in play.  

(6) Tangle Wire and (7) Staff can tap down Predator.    

What else am I missing?  

[honestabe]

Give it a month, there're more likely than not be some sweet answers printed

[Cyberpunker]

Lightning Bolt
Deathmark
lots and lots already exist but I dont think you will ever need to hate it

[LotusHead]

Red Elemental Blast
Leonin Abunis

[Smmenen]

Ah, I should have specified that I meant artifacts or lands, specifically.   Thus, these would be cards available to MUD. 

[Will]

Smokestack is a big one, as well as smaller "answers" like Ensnaring Bridge, any creature that flies and has 2 or more toughness, or maybe something like Culling Scales that deals with the smallest creature on the board which is quite possibly Trygon Predator if you are playing against UBG Key. 

[tezzajw]

Haha, Type 2 tech...  Brittle Effigy.  With the big IF being that you can generate the 4 non-Workshop mana to use it.

Helm of Possession could be situationally good, if you can ditch a manland/creature of your own.

All is Dust.  But if you have 7 non-Workshop mana, you're probably winning anyway.

Darksteel Forge = Wishful thinking.

Jester's Cap.  A preemptive strike to remove the Trygons could work.

Blinkmoth Nexus/Crucible of Worlds can chump block for a while, until the second Nexus hits the table to gang-kill the Trygon.

It's a crime that Darksteel Gargoyle was printed with 7cmc.  That creature has so much wasted potential at 7cmc.

Crooked Scales!  Enough said...


Note:  I understand that all of those options are basically crap.  Don't rag on me for listing more colourless ways to deal with the Trygon.  Smmenen wanted a brainstorm thread, so bad ideas can get tossed around, especially when they make the good ideas look better.

[serracollector]

Jester's Cap
Icy Manipulator
Powder Keg
Tawno's Coffin
Puppet Strings (also nice with metal worker?)
Claws of Gix
Brittle Effigy*
Darksteel Brute (lol, but it works!)
Phyrexian Splicer (lets you block him, i like this card)
Skyshaper
Trip Noose

Any equip card that gives flying.  There are a few.

Veldaken Shackles if you play Blue MUD.

Urza's Avenger
Platinum Angel
Thopter Squadron
 
other artifact creatures with flying or reach (Araknoid ftw).

Predator Flagship (in metalworker MUD this could actually be viable, kills Iona and Sphinx too, and anything for 7 mana)
Scarecrow (cuz its funny?)


Puppet Strings and Predator Flagship and Platinum angel are probably the most realistic I would think.

[LotusHead]

Ensouled Scimitar is an equipment that gives +1/+5 or becomes a 1/5 flying creature.

Platinum Angel was a very good suggestion.

POSSIBLY using borderpost technology (and/or Talismans) to get colored mana (while keeping up the artifact count) could give access to colored answers to predator.

[Neonico]

Smokestack is a big one, as well as smaller "answers" like Ensnaring Bridge, any creature that flies and has 2 or more toughness, or maybe something like Culling Scales that deals with the smallest creature on the board which is quite possibly Trygon Predator if you are playing against UBG Key. 

How is smokestack an answer to trygon predator ? It's at best a possible way to avoid it to be played (considering that you'll have to spend a turn doing nothing more than playing smokestack instead of cards that delay it more), but not really a solution to a resolved predator.

[Will]

Smokestack is an answer to Trygon Predator because it is pretty much the only answer to Trygon Predator in the maindeck that is widely played aside from Duplicant/ Triskelion.  Sure just casting Smokestack will not answer a Trygon on its own but when paired with Tangle Wire it can actually deal with Trygon Predator.  I'm not advocating you sideboard Smokestack to try and answer Predator but rather that you should already be playing the card and can remove it pre board unlike just about every other card mentioned in this thread so far. 

[Troy_Costisick]

A combination of 3 Caltrops/Sculpting Steels kills it.  Bad synergy with Juggs and Golem, tho.

Triskelavus for a slightly more mana intesive Trike, but can block the predator w/ Null Rod out.

Rocket Launcher, which can be doubled as a finisher or Jace killer.  Bad synergy w/ Null Rod, tho.

Gargoyle Castle + Crucible of Worlds is nice and adds either mana or aggro when you need it.

Mantis Engine can work as a blocker.  Kinda crappy tho.

[JACO]

Assuming a Trygon has already slipped through, as you stated, the only realistic colorless answers would be:
Duplicant
Maze of Ith
Triskelion
Staff of Domination

One of the reasons Jerome Yanchick was able to Top 8 Vintage Worlds with Workshops this year was because he was splashing Red (and more), which let him easily cast Red Elemental Blast and Goblin Welder as answers to Trygon Predator.

[Bill Copes]

Slew of Terrible, Unplayable Answers that work under Null Rod:
- Dancing Scimitar blocks predator ALL DAY LONG.
- Eater of Days is huge for the same CC, and could have some fringe benefits in conjunction with Tangle and Smokey.
- Eldrazi Monument + Crucible + Mishra's Factory + Juggs & Lodestones creates a frightening situation.
- Junk Diver x 2 lets you block one trygon all day long.
- Rust Elemental is a big flyer and the drawback could be negligible, depending on your board state.

Not terrible answers:
What JACO & Smmenen have already listed.

[Leooooh]

hey

Basically we can divide those as it follows:

MUDs with Rods, without Smokestack:
- Duplicant (helps against oath too, mirror and fish......Handles goyf too)
- Tabernacle + Tangle wire in upkeep, making them pay for wire first and then eliminating trygon
- Maze of Ith, with a big critter in our side, such as Lodestone or Jugg. (Uncounterable)
- Razormane Masticore, but as menendian said, must be cast before Trygon. Can be combined with mazes too.

MUDs with Rods, with Smokestack:
- Duplicant (helps against oath too, mirror and fish......Handles goyf too)
- Tabernacle + Tangle wire in upkeep, making them pay for wire first and then eliminating trygon
- Maze of Ith, with a big critter in our side, such as Lodestone or Jugg (Uncounterable)
- Razormane Masticore, but as menendian said, must be cast before Trygon. Can be combined with mazes too.
- Ensnaring Bridge followed by a smokestack to empty their board, but this makes your deck too much defensive, and you need to empty your hand as soon as possible. Better in bazaar stax!


Metalworker AGGRO
- Duplicant (helps against oath too, mirror and fish......Handles goyf too)
- Tabernacle + Tangle wire in upkeep, making them pay for wire first and then eliminating trygon
- Maze of Ith, with a big critter in our side, such as Lodestone or Jugg (Uncounterable)
- Razormane Masticore, but as menendian said, must be cast before Trygon. Can be combined with mazes too.
- Ensnaring Bridge followed by a smokestack to empty their board, but this makes your deck too much defensive, and you need to empty your hand as soon as possible. Better in bazaar stax!
- Triskelion


Metalworker AGGRO with Staff Combo
- Duplicant (helps against oath too, mirror and fish......Handles goyf too)
- Tabernacle + Tangle wire in upkeep, making them pay for wire first and then eliminating trygon
- Maze of Ith, with a big critter in our side, such as Lodestone or Jugg (Uncounterable)
- Razormane Masticore, but as menendian said, must be cast before Trygon. Can be combined with mazes too.
- Ensnaring Bridge followed by a smokestack to empty their board, but this makes your deck too much defensive, and you need to empty your hand as soon as possible. Better in bazaar stax!
- Triskelion
- Staff of Domination


So this is a sum of MUDs available today....We can have some variants and mixes, but what we usually see nowadays are those ones.
I prefer a lot Duplicant (1st place), since it handles not only trygon, but oath critters, goyfs, sphinx, other lodestones/juggs and all other guys we usually see.
The secong option would be Triskelion if you are playing Aggro Shop with Swords of Fire and Ice to keep it big even after deploying all his counters on trygons.
And the last one, would be Maze of ith.....Uncounterable effect and amazing if combined with an active smokestack. Too bad that it keeps you too defensive and sometimes dependant on smoketacks.

[Neonico]

Smokestack is an answer to Trygon Predator because it is pretty much the only answer to Trygon Predator in the maindeck that is widely played aside from Duplicant/ Triskelion.  Sure just casting Smokestack will not answer a Trygon on its own but when paired with Tangle Wire it can actually deal with Trygon Predator.  I'm not advocating you sideboard Smokestack to try and answer Predator but rather that you should already be playing the card and can remove it pre board unlike just about every other card mentioned in this thread so far. 

You could also say that 2sphere is a solution to trygon because it avoid your opponent to play it....
What i meant is that a card which is an artefact and need to pass the turn (several times even when you speack of Smokestack) isn't a solution to trygon.

Tangle can be a solution because you can kill your opponent before his trygon will hurt you, so it's good by itself, but saying that smokestack helps this problem because it's good with that and that is wrong to me.

[M.Solymossy]

Tangle Wire + Tabernacle is definitely NOT going to ever deal with it, unless you waste every mana source they have.

"wire on the stack, I'll tap my lands and float 2.  Tap to wire.  Okay, I'll pay for Tabernacle now"

[Juggernaut GO]

1. Tangle wire is the best temporary solution to an early game trygon when opponent likely has 3-4 permanents depending on whether or not they used lotus to cast it.  It buys time to ramp up to 6 mana to get the best answers.

2. Duplicant or triskelion.  Shop players are going to need to start playing like 3 main deck duplicant/trisk (depending if you run null rod or not) in order to deal with trygon tezz which will remain popular for some time.

3. Razormane masticore is absolute dogshit in anything without welders.  It's slow, it does jack shit once trygon is already in play, and the odds of a shop deck resolving it before a tezz player has played a trygon is rather low.

4. Ensnaring bridge is also dogshit.  I've never liked this card in shop sideboards, there are always better answers available.

5. Maze of Ith is only decent if you are running the expedition map tech, which I admit I am starting to like.  But again, can not be played with null rod.

Tezz will usually tap out to drop an early trygon, giving the shop player the chance to play the dupe/trisk with a sphere effect in play.  #2 is the best option available.

[madmanmike25]

I actually think Mystifying Maze isn't so unreasonable since you could theoretically run 4 and additional copies can help pay that mana.

Glacial Chasm prevents damage so Trygon shouldn't trigger.

Spidersilk Net is not bad for only 2 mana as long as you have a creature out.  Then again Triangle of War is a one-shot way for Jugg/Lodestone to kill Trygon.

Let's also not forget about Eater of Days and Rust Elemental...

But honestly your best answer is Dupe or Trike and then Platz.  If you can build a deck around E.Bridge (hint: Bazaar of Baghdad) that may work as well since it's cheap and isn't affected by Null Rod.

[Delha]

Spidersilk Net is not bad for only 2 mana as long as you have a creature out.  Then again Triangle of War is a one-shot way for Jugg/Lodestone to kill Trygon.

Maybe Arena over Triangle of War? Assuming you're nuking their Confidants asap, Trygon is likely their only creature to send into the Battledome.

Edit: I'd also suggest Trip Noose over Pupper Strings, and Unerring Sling as a potential alternatives to Arena/Triangle.

[Neonico]

Tawno's Coffin .... :S

[TheBrassMan]

I'm not sure where the Maze of Ith hate is coming from- that is why you'd need something like expedition map to support it.  It's not like MUD is packing Mystical Tutor - You're just as likely to find 1 copy of Maze of Ith as you are to find 1 copy of Duplicant, if you want to draw more, run more. 

In general, Shops have always had better proactive answers than reactive ones.  The best answer to Trygon is really probably spheres and wastelands.  Assuming it sticks, you're already not doing your job very well, and asking for a 6 mana man seems weak.  If you're going to run a reactive answer, Maze seems pretty natural, and gives you some (admittedly minor) added value if you're running Tabernacle.  It helps both players under a Wire or Smokestack, which can be a good or bad thing - but being free and uncounterable feels stronger ... (though having them just not cast it in the first place feels even better than that)

[Smmenen]

I ran Maze of Ith in my MUD sideboard at Vintage Worlds, and I ran Tabernacle before that.   I actually ran it for Trygon Predator, having been well aware of Ochoa's list. 

[Troy_Costisick]

In general, Shops have always had better proactive answers than reactive ones.  The best answer to Trygon is really probably spheres and wastelands.

You can add maybe Ghost Quarter to that since they can target basics.  Most Vault decks don't play too many basics, so if you can keep them off one of their colors of mana to cast Trygon, you can keep it from hitting play.

[MagicMan]

If ur not running null rods Umezawa's jiite is amazing at controlling the board, but again u need one active before trygon gets going.  I personally feel predator is AMAZING against MUD and basically if one gets out and the MUD player doesn't have an answer like razormane already out or duplicant in hand its almost game over for the MUD player.  I think this is a great thread to try and figure out how the MUD deck can compete with the x3 Predator lists out there now.

[jbrauer99]

@ 6cc, Triskelion is by far and away the best answer to Predator.  It also very efficiently answers the other engines in trezzy.  Of course, that’s if you’re not playing null rod, where keeping trygon from hitting in the first place is probably the better route.  I personally like junk diver because it blocks and gets trike back.  It is also fun to equip junky with a sword.   But, I tend to play other jank like skullclamp and myr retriever.  I look forward to Scars of Mirrodin, and all the broken new artifacts

[LotusHead]

Icy Manipulater can tap down a problem (Predator) or a potential problem (2nd blue source).

Obviously doesn't play nice with Null Rod.

[BruiZar]

Serrated Arrows if you have it on the table before he hits.
Tawnoss' Coffin

[Delha]

Serrated Arrows if you have it on the table before he hits.
Tawnoss' Coffin

If we're talking about things that have to be on the table before Predator lands, Razormane seems far superior, which is why I didn't mention it. I do have to say nuking Confidants is nice though.

I really don't get why people are suggesting Coffin. Brittle Effigy seems better in almost every way.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Does anybody know if rust elemental has seen any play?

It seems like it could be at least worth testing as an alternative to juggernaut in a build with null rods. It can eat redundant rods and power post rod as well as used vaults, crypts and tangle wires.

In the mirror, you get to choose whether to trade or to race. It survives bolt and blocks attacking 3-power creatures (exalted fish, merfolk with a lord out, etc.) favorably. It obviously goldfishes a turn later than juggernaut, but if you account for chump-blocking confidants and whatnot, it should be comparable also in times of speed. The opponent is more likely to lose 4 life than 5 from his own effects, further evening out the race.

I've never played with or against a competitive MUD list, so I may be completely off on this one.