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Author Topic: The Mountains Win Again is Back!  (Read 52036 times)
xouman
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« Reply #120 on: January 05, 2012, 04:34:30 am »

I haven't played any magic for 3 weeks and have not further feedback, but I fairly agree with you.

Running out of gas is one of my main concerns, that is why mulligans are really painful, but I haven't find a reliable source. I have thought about welding jar, abusable with welder, but this is not the right deck. And to say the truth, in most matches you only run out of gas after opponent spends 2 or more counters, most of the time you have gas for several turns until you have golem or a couple of critters. Lacking of a "oops I win" tactic is common for landstill and fish, and are reliable decks. But I agree that Aggro Route should be enphasized in some metagames, sometimes control is not the best way.

Oath is the worst pairing for sure, the only real chance is prevent him to play oath of druids. We have several options to do that (moons and strips for green mana, chalice at 2), but we have little options.

Against fish it depends on tarmogoyfs, really. Flusters do nothing, and missteps only cut welders. Lightnings and Jaya Ballard give us time, chalice is great at 1 to cut swords and at 2 to cut most critters and then golems should win the game if there are not tarmos around.

Against ichorid we just have to shut bazaar and that should be achiveable, we maindeck 5 strips and 7 moons. Those are 12 hate cards maindeck! If we play 3 ghost quarter in the side, we are in a good position unless thet dredge like gods. Also with moons paradises do not bounce and there is less landfall for bloodghasts, and with moons and chalice at 1 their hate is quite limited.

Golem is not really synergistic, but it is too good, and with welders and ancient tombs it becomes better. It's our chance to be the beatdown, usually better as a 5/3 beater than a sphere. Most metamorphs you play would be copying him, and for a reason.

Finally, instead Hero of Oxid Ridge I'm gonna try Lord of Shatterskull Pass. Same cc4 (though you only need 1R, interesting with only 10-12 mountains), but goes over tarmos, golems, panthers, and other creatures. Maybe it's a bit slower when trying to kill opponent, but this is a control deck, we need a creature capable of blocking creatures from quicker decks. Still I'm unsure if I should play 2 maindeck or keep them in the SB, it depends on the metagame.


BTW, there is a match recorded against bomberman, 3 weeks ago: http://manainfinito.com/videos/lcv-2011-torneo-final-ronda-01-carlos-fern-ndez-red-hate-vs-alex-delgado-bomberman. Despite having null rods and chalices to prevent him go off with auriok, and maindecking 4 golems, I could not find anything against him in first match. Second one is cut, but I was in a good position when the video finishes. Probably my worst match with this deck, I keep poor hands with nice manabases and welder but I hadn't sleep enough :p
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #121 on: January 06, 2012, 02:21:31 pm »

1) running out of gas due to lack of a draw engine

This is why I expressed earlier in this thread about splashing a second color for CA and/or the usage of Imperial recruiter.

2) the lack of any "oops, I win" potent tactics that can save a game that has started to go badly.

There is a version of this deck that has that capability. Hornung talks about it in this article http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/23300_The_Guide_To_Vintages_Landscape_Vintages_SoCalled_Bombo_Combos.html labeled as mono red painter

From close to a year of trying different versions of this deck I have found no way to reliably beat Oath or Dredge without devoted hate cards.  You are slow enough that even with a moon slow dredging beats you, and oath ends up finding a green source or resolving an oath before you can do anything.  Ive never had much of an issue with fish in fact i always considered it a great match up, as well as any other deck that doesn't run tinker, oath, or bazaar.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #122 on: January 06, 2012, 03:47:29 pm »

Sword of Fire and Ice is a decent draw engine, and it protects your dudes from targeted bounce and Fire/Ice.  I used to play two in my TMWA back in '07.

Peace,

-Troy
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evouga
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« Reply #123 on: January 06, 2012, 04:12:03 pm »

Ive never had much of an issue with fish in fact i always considered it a great match up, as well as any other deck that doesn't run tinker, oath, or bazaar.

What did you use to deal with Tarmogoyfs?
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #124 on: January 06, 2012, 05:41:20 pm »

Ive never had much of an issue with fish in fact i always considered it a great match up, as well as any other deck that doesn't run tinker, oath, or bazaar.

What did you use to deal with Tarmogoyfs?

Phyrexian metamorph is a pretty good wall for him add a pinger and you win that battle in mono red.  In the white version I had intrepid hero to deal with him.  The black version bob would provide enough CA so that I could double block him, also you can use earwig squad to trade with him, which also doubles as oath hate.  Also chalice at 2, blood moons, null rods, and revoker usually can prevent him from being cast altogether, in these situations Stingscourger can bounce him if hes resolved before you can set up your lock.  Sb games i would always have a basilisk collar and jitte come in, which are huge blowouts against all fish variants.
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hazard
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« Reply #125 on: January 10, 2012, 12:17:29 am »

I played a version of TMWA in the 34 man field at the Meandeck Open yesterday. I was not spectacular, but here's what happened for the community's digestion:

The deck was produced from a core of TMWA staples. I went with seven total Moon effects. With eight lands that make two mana and seven possible free red manas (including Lotus), the obvious goal is to land a Moon effect on the first turn. The second best plan is to land a Null Rod on turn one and a Moon effect ASAP. Here's what I ran:

Artifacts (7)
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
4 Null Rod

Creatures (21)
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Enchantments (3)
3 Blood Moon

Instants (12)
4 Dead / Gone
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens

Lands (17)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Artifact Blast
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pulverize
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Slag Fiend
2 Stingscourger

Round 1 – Bernie from Cincinnati with some thing similar to Jimmy McCarthy's deck from the last TSO

Bernie and I played in the Sunday Vintage tournament at GenCon and he remembered his bad luck. He had mis-reg'd his deck and got a game loss before we started. In game two, I mulled to six and had Tinker/BSC for the win...

Game 1

I was on the play and Bernie mulled to six. I believe he countered my early Moon effect and dropped a Jace TMS which was active a couple turns before I dropped a Phyrexian Revoker on Jace. Bernie had dropped a Delver at one point, but used it to block when I attacked his Jace. A second Magus of the Moon stuck along with a Figure of Destiny's Child and the team went the distance.

Game 2

I board in the two REBs and the Pyroblast from the board removing one Smash to Smithereens, one Dead//Gone, and one Figure. I had an early Revoker again, but my Null Rod was FOW'd. I landed a Magus, but he was Dismembered the next turn, although I Metamorphed him before he went away. And then that was Dismembered. Among all of those counterspells and Dismembers, I got him down to six life before Vault/Key was dropped with a Snapmaster in play. Scoop.

Game 3

I mulligan to six and probably shoulda went to five...Ben goes aggro and drops two Tarmgoyfs and a Trygon Predator and overruns me.

RECORD: 0-1

Round 2 – Adam from Columbus with ANT (Goody Two Shoes – get it?)

Game 1

Adam is on the play and I mulligan to six, but still land an early Magus. Adam sees a Mox, but no usable lands. A Revoker comes in on the Mox, along with an SSG and they go the distance.

Game 2

I board the same as game two from round one. Again, Adam is on the play and I mulligan to six. Adam has a Swamp and an Island and Mysticals for Ad Nauseam. I had a Pyroblast and considered using it on the Mystical, but I figured he was going for Tinker or Acall so I saved it. Whoops. As it turned out, Adam had one of the worst Ad Naus's I've seen:

Mox Jet, Tendrils of Agony, Hurkyls Recall, Mana Vault, Underground Sea, Tendrils of Agony, Slaughter Pact, Hurklys Recall, Tendrils of Agony -

...at which point he stopped at three life. He discarded the two Hurkyls and one Tendrils at the end of his turn. Unfortunately, I could not get a moon effect in before he fetched a basic Swamp and Island and I kept top-decking mana sources and no threats. I did drop a Null Rod. Even a Lighting Bolt woulda been nice. Kinda unusual for a deck with 21 creatures and four Bolts. With a Cabal Ritual and his available mana, he dropped the unusable Jet and Mana Vault and was able to storm five and Tendrils me for 12 getting him back up to 14 (he was at 2 after a fetch). Then he Vamp'd for Yawg and killed me the next turn.

Game 3

Now that I knew what he was playing, I boarded in the two Mindbreak Traps and dropped the other two Dead//Gones. This time I was on the play and Adam had to mulligan to six. I landed a turn one Magus and a turn two Revoker on Lotus. They got him down to three before he went off with a Tendrils for 12 bringing him back up 15 and me to eight. At one point he Duressed me and I Lightning Bolted in response. He saw nothing else though and the team took him down.

RECORD: 1-1

Round 3 – Mark Sun

Game 1

Mark was on the play, but had to mulligan to five. I had a turn one threat (Null Rod or Moon) that was FOW'd, but the turn two Magus stuck. I then landed another Null Rod and Mark scooped soon after.

Game 2

I boarded in one REB and one Pyroblast as I really saw nothing from Mark. I removed one Smash and one Dead//Gone. This time I had to mulligan to five with Mark on the play. He again FOW'd an early threat and assembled Vault/Key rather quickly and I scooped.

Game 3 (EPIC)

No one mulligans and I land a first turn Magus on the play with Ancient Tomb pitching SSG and I also drop Black Lotus. Mark plays a Volcanic Island. On my turn, I play a Mountain and swing with Magus and Mark taps his 'Mountain' to cast...a Beta Lighting Bolt at the Magus! I crack my Lotus for UUU, tap my Mountain and hardcast Minbreak Trap the Lighting Bolt! That was the first time I had seen Lotus on the day and the first time I had ever hardcast Mindbreak Trap.

Mark uptaps, plays a land, and drops Voltaic Key. I drop a 2/2 (maybe SSG?) and swing in. Mark draw and plays...Time Vault. Seriously? As it turns out, you can use basic Mountains to cast Voltaic Key and Time Vault without any problem. With just under 50 cards left in my deck, I had seven outs (four Null Rod and three Phyrexian Revokers). I topdecked a Null Rod and my dudes went the distance.

RECORD 2-1

Round 4 – Mark with Turbo Tezz

Game 1

I am on the play, but have to mulligan to six. I try a first turn Null Rod, but it is FOW’d. Mark has a broken opening with Mox, Vault, Grim Monolith into Grim Monolith. I land a Magus of the Moon who beats for a couple turns, but Mark lands a Top and assembles Vault/Key after I had dropped him to seven life. This match kinda sucked because I had a hard time following what he was doing because it seemed his entire deck was proxied.

Game 2

I had a first turn Magus that was Dismembered and he assembled Vault/Key on turn two.

RECORD 2-2

Round 5 – Reuben who is named after a sandwich and is off cubing…

RECORD 3-2

Round 6 – Twaun with the BRAX!

Game 1

I mulligan to six with Twaun on the play. He drops a Workshop, Mox, Chalice at zero, and a Lodestone Golem. Eek. I drop a Null Rod on my turn and he beats me with Lonestar on his and drops a Bazaar. I get beat again down to eight and drop a Simian Spirit Guide. Twaun drops a Thorn and beats again and I go to three. I play a Metamorph copying Lodestone using my Ancient Tomb and go to one life. Twaun keeps Bazaaring and finding nothing so he attacks with his Lodestone and we trade. I think I drop a Phyrexian Revoker on Welder and begin beating with him and the SSG while Twaun continues seeing three cards a turn (draw + Bazaar) and amazingly finding nothing. Another 2/2 joins them and they beat in for the win with me at one life.

Game 2

I finally get to use my Shop sideboard cards and bring in four Slag fiend, three Artifact Blast, and one Pulverize. Unfortunately, Twaun is on the play and I mulligan to four cards. He lands a first turn Lodestone Golem and I think I was able to play Ancient Tomb, Ruby, pitch SSG for Magus. Twaun doesn’t mind at all as he drops a Viashino Heretic the next turn. I get a Metamorph in on the Lodestone, but he is rocked by the Heretic on the next turn. I drop a Slag fiend and he is only a 3/3, but he is good enough to trade with a second Lodestone. I think I landed a Null Rod or a Revoker also, but between the Heretic and another Lodestone, I am quickly out of blockers.

Game 3

Just as we are shuffling up, time is called.

RECORD 3-2-1

My sideboard was focused on blue decks and Shop decks. I figured with Dredge, my best plan were the seven main deck Moon effects. The two Stingscourgers were for Oath. Some of the TMWA decks I've seen run Greater Gargadon or Goblin Bombardment to deal with Spirit tokens. That seems fine, but when this deck wants to win by creatures, I figured it was easier to deal with the Oathed up creature than to try and stop the Oath. With the two Stingscourgers, three Metamorphs, and three Gone there were some options. And with Lab Man Oath, I have three Dead and four Lightning Bolt, not to mention all the REBs and Pyroblasts. As it turned out, there was zero Oath at the tournament.

I like the deck and I think it's definitely viable in the meta. The one glaring weakness was when the other guy has better creatures like Tarmogoyfs. I suppose adding another Metamorph might be reasonable. I also thought about possible adding Mana Crypt and/or Sol Ring, but I'm not sure at the expense of what.

For what it's worth...cheers
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 08:30:28 am by hazard » Logged
evouga
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« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2012, 03:57:43 am »

Thanks for posting the list!

Quote
...I go to three. I play a Metamorph copying Lodestone using my Ancient Tomb and go to one life.

Don't you go to -1 here?

Quote
I figured with Dredge, my best plan were the seven main deck Moon effects.

How effective has this been in practice? I've found that hte moons slow dredge, but not enough to reliably win with my bears. I run 2x Tormod's Crypt and 2x Surgical Extraction in the sideboard as additional hate, but I'm not sure that's optimal.

Quote
Some of the TMWA decks I've seen run Greater Gargadon

Yeah, Greater Gargadon is terrible. The Oath pilot just bides his time until you run out of suspend counters, and you can't do anything with the time you've bought since you can't play creatures. I run Chaos Warp to deal with Oath and its targets, but I hadn't thought of Stingscourger. Cute.

Quote
The one glaring weakness was when the other guy has better creatures like Tarmogoyfs.

Have you tried Dismember? What did you think?

Quote
I also thought about possible adding Mana Crypt and/or Sol Ring

There's enough dissynergy between these and Null Rod that I'm highly resistant to running them (especially Mana Crypt). How often have you found your limiting resource to be colorless (as opposed to red) mana?


Why no Chalice of the Void? This deck can play it at 0 and 2 with almost no drawback, and extra copies are less dead than you might expect due to Welder+Metamorph shenanigans.

Have you tried Keldon Vandals over Smash to Smithereens? I was skeptical at first about the 3 CMC but I don't usually have trouble casting them, even against Shops, and they're a source of desperately-needed card advantage.

Any thoughts on Figure of Destiny?
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xouman
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« Reply #127 on: January 10, 2012, 06:56:15 am »

Nice result, and you found similar problems as me. You can't really fight against tezz if you play null rod, revokers, welders, smash to smithereens and still you lose to vault so many times, you should have a very good pairing against vault. Your list seems quite solid and capable of getting a better result with a bit or more luck.

Figure of destiny - I chose to play lodestone golem over figure. 4 mana is a heavy investment, but with 2 mana lands is achievable, plus recoverable with welders. great out to tarmogoyfs and other golems, slows opponents, but is affected by artifacts hate. Besides, you are often in need of red mana if your moons are countered.

City of traitors - As I play lodestone golem, I played wastelands instead cities to have a mana screw path. I agree that under a moon, wasteland is not useful, but usually with a moon in play we are on control. Not sure which way is better, and actually city of traitors sounds better.

dead//gone - I played viashinos and jaya ballard in those slots. Viashinos can take vault, deal 12 damage with bsc and are great against MUD. Jaya is a so-so, I side them often, but it is great against fish. I'd play lavamancer, but this deck generates a poor grave. Dead//gone seems quite good replacing Jaya, I'll test them, but Jaya is reusable and scary enough to get lots of fows, to my surprise.

blasts, shaman - I played chalice. As it's been said, this deck is inmune to chalice at 0 and 2. In my case, I only play welders and lightnings with CC1, so chalices can be set from 0 to 2. It is quite devastating, I'll keep chalice happily.


Sb for oath: I put no effort on this. Sorry, I can only win oath with a miracle, I try to win everything else instead.

Dismember: I tried it but it was totally crap for me. 4 lifes are too much with metamorphs and tombs. Since we want dismember to kill creatures, I'd play lightning bolt, jaya or a fatty in this slot.

Slag fiend: I'm quite sceptic. This is only good with artifacts in the grave, and mud does not sacrifice any. I'd play viashinos or chewers.

Rebs/mindbreak trap: I chose not to play them. We would lose most counter wars, so I'm focused on play cards that wins us (tinker, vault, tendrils).

Now I'd play a sb like this

3 grave hate - not decided what to play here. Rebs could be ok if you don't expect ichorid
3 stranglehold - tezz
1 pyrokinesis - small creatures around
2 pulverize - mud
2 Lord of Shatterskull Pass - fish, mud
4 pyrostatic pillar - storm

or something similar.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #128 on: January 10, 2012, 09:34:18 pm »

First off thank you for your post Hazard and its good to see you at least finished with a winning record.

Quote
I figured with Dredge, my best plan were the seven main deck Moon effects.

How effective has this been in practice? I've found that the moons slow dredge, but not enough to reliably win with my bears. I run 2x Tormod's Crypt and 2x Surgical Extraction in the sideboard as additional hate, but I'm not sure that's optimal.

I agree with you that this is definitely not enough dredge hate.  Being that I have won with dredge before I feel that I have a handle on how to play the deck and moon effects are most definitely not enough to win a game against dredge.  They can literally just draw to eight cards and discard a dredger and still beat you because of how slow the clock is and how quickly dredge can assemble blockers when they start dredging.  The two most effect cards that we can run to beat dredge are relic and leyline, both of which when combined with a moon effect are good game, unless of course they firestorm your magus. 

The two Stingscourgers were for Oath. Some of the TMWA decks I've seen run Greater Gargadon or Goblin Bombardment to deal with Spirit tokens. That seems fine, but when this deck wants to win by creatures, I figured it was easier to deal with the Oathed up creature than to try and stop the Oath. With the two Stingscourgers, three Metamorphs, and three Gone there were some options.

These are also not enough to beat oath.  Almost all oath lists that Ive encountered lately either run dragon breath, into bsc and emrakul, or they run Rune-scarred Demon and time walk until they beat you to death.   All the cards you have posted are sorceries and as a result will only affect oath if they are playing a list other than these two.  However, since oath doesn't play much of a factor in the meta game any more I don't really see a need for oath hate in the sideboard, especially considering the best option is Greater Gargadon and even that is sketchy at best, since all he does is buy a few turns, during which you only get attacks with tokens that they give you.

Nice result, and you found similar problems as me. You can't really fight against tezz if you play null rod, revokers, welders, smash to smithereens and still you lose to vault so many times, you should have a very good pairing against vault. Your list seems quite solid and capable of getting a better result with a bit or more luck.

I like the deck and I think it's definitely viable in the meta. The one glaring weakness was when the other guy has better creatures like Tarmogoyfs. I suppose adding another Metamorph might be reasonable. I also thought about possible adding Mana Crypt and/or Sol Ring, but I'm not sure at the expense of what.

All of us seem to be running into the same issues with this deck.  Namely you seem to have to pick your poison between tarmogoyf, tinker/bsc, and vault/key.  All of these win cons have a one thing in common.  They don't require more than 1 colored mana.  This obviously makes blood moons bad at stopping them.  The issue then arises because we need to function primarily as a mono red deck that we do not have access to good deck manipulation options.  It seems as though there are few options to tackling this issue of deck manipulation.  Each of these options having pros and cons.

1. Playing a large number of copies of answers to each of these cards.

Pro: This option does not sacrifice speed or your mana base.

Con: You can end up drawing multiple copies of a card that does nothing in a particular match up.

or

2. Splashing a second color.

Pro:  You gain access to a lot more effective answers and more powerful cards.

Con: This makes the mana base a lot less stable.  As a result you can lose games from drawing cards you can not cast even while you are being mana flooded, and although less of an issue you can lose games to being waste landed.

or

3. Imperial Recruiter.

Pro: Greatly improves consistency.

Con: Hes painfully slow and mana intensive.  I would find myself having to guess what my opponent was going to do before they did it, since rarely would I have enough mana to play him and my answer in the same turn.

Even though I have focused most of my testing on this deck with options 2 and 3.  I am starting to think that an extremely well built version of option 1 is the most optimal.

In order to do this I think a discussion of every card option available would be good.  Ill try to go through all the cards that Ive tested that seem viable for this version of the deck.

The moon effects, mana sources, and unpowered are definitely what win you the most games.  Here is what I consider to be the optimal numbers of each:

Moon effects:
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Blood Moon

Unpowered:
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void

Mana Sources:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
4 Anicient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
12 Mountain

Now down to the hard choices:

Options for increasing clock speed:

Spellshock:  This limits the number of spells that each player is allowed to cast.  Creating the biggest change in the blue match up as now they can not use their deck manipulation as readily.  However, if they resolve a Jace when you don't have multiple threats on the table this can backfire on you.  Also it needs to be boarded out against pretty much every other deck.

Pyrostatic Pillar:  From my play testing this is almost just a worse than version of spellshock, you pay 1 less mana, but now your opponent can cast spells like Jace, Gfits, and Force without taking any damage at all.

Gathan Raiders:  Definitely the fastest beater available.  Multiple copies of this dropped early can end the game by turn 4.  Hes also usually big enough to compete with goyf.

Countryside Crusher:  He makes it so you don't ever draw a land.  There are quite a few times when this is good and almost as many when this is bad.  More of a gamble than I would prefer.

Hero of Oxid Ridge:  There are not many 1 power creatures in vintage and a lot of 2 power ones.  Hes better than slash panther, but i dont think by much

Lodestone Golem:  While he is extremely powerful and can provide blowout wins, most people's stax hate is in red, which is always readily available

Figure of Destiny:  If you can drop him early hes solid and in extreme mana floods he becomes huge, but he is rarely large enough to compete with goyf and does not provide a very fast clock for the mana invested.

Kargan Dragonlord:  He costs double red and then an additional 4 red mana before hes effective, this makes him kind of slow, but his ability to be dropped early and be the largest option late game makes him very strong.

Options for artifact hate:

Viashino Heretic:  This guy is amazing against stax, bsc, and vault/key.  The only issue is that you can't really swing with him and you need to keep 2 mana up for him.

Goblin Welder:  Hes a solid answer to bsc and he allows you to play artifact hate aggressively against blue and stax since he can trade moxes for threats.  Again you can't really attack with him though and you usually want a Chalice at 1 against blue decks.

Gorilla Shaman:  Kills moxen and voltaic key, but he needs mana to operate, they get 1 use out of their mox and you want Chalice at 1.

Phyrexian Revoker:  He turns off 1 artifact, but similar to lodestone hes vulnerable to artifact hate.

Manic Vandal:  Solid 2 for 1, but hes basically uncastable unless your opponent has an artifact out.

Ingot Chewer:  Similar to manic vandal except hes bigger and can be cast for 1 if needed.

Creature answers:

Phyrexian metamorph:  Amazing at adding to a clock or answering a big creature from the opponent, but suffers from splash damage hate from stax.

Stingscourger:  he only bounces your opponents creatures and due to his high echo cost can be very underwhelming

Cunning Sparkmage:  he kills bobs and snapcasters with haste, but he costs quite a bit mana for something that only adds 1 damage to the clock

Grim Lavamancer:  he out right kills or trades with almost every creature in the format, but he needs you to feed your gy which isn't always an option

Jaya Ballard: she kills almost every planeswalker and creature at the cost of some mana and a card, but shes legendary and costs double red.

Not sure how to categorize:

Trinisphere:  it can be relatively useless some games, but protects you from force of will and prevents gush and yawg will from going crazy.

Stranglehold:  shuts down tinker and vault/key, but costs 4 mana.

Reb/pyro:  with SSG they are conditional force of wills, but you want chalice at 1 and they don't hit vault/key or goyf

Vexing shusher:  he lets you play through your own chalice of the voids as well as protect your spells from their counter magic.  Hes also has 2 power and only costs 2 mana.  But requires you to have a lot of red mana available.

I know i missed quite a few cards, but should be a good start to the options that are available to us.
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xouman
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« Reply #129 on: January 11, 2012, 12:08:12 pm »

Excellent summary of card choices, all those you mentioned are interesting Smile

You are slowly convencing me about Spellshock. Since unrestriction of gush, pyrostatic is not as good as before, but as I play with golems and metamorphs, those are at least 7 cards outside pyrostatic pillar, quite relevant because ancient tombs and metamorphs themselves decrease my life quickly. Besides, a typical storm deck loses lifes because of some beating or fastbond, and even through gushes pyrostatic should be as deadly as Spellshock. Still, there are few storm decks around, and some of them are Doomsday decks, which can survive over both. Maybe thorns/mindbreak trap are better options (I don't think so, but haven't tested enough).

Revoker does not manage to get into my list. If I feature 4 null rods and 4 chalices, I don't expect to play revoker to annul a mox. Which other relevant cards are now? Auriok salvagers (Bomberman is here again), but also kept at bay by chalice and null rod, jace, who can be killed with lightnings, Jaya Ballard, beating..., Tezz/Vault, noble hierarch... Revoker does nothing against ichorid, little against oath or mud, and it's so-so against fish. At this moment not good enough, but interesting.

With my list, gathan raiders are far from usually a 5/5. I'd play golem over them against every deck, even mud (against mud you won't have an empty hand). Kargan and countryside sound as better replacements, but I still will try LOSP. a 6/6 for 4RR in two investments is not spectacular, but 6 seems the magical number if you will face golems and tarmogoyfs. Kargan looks quite promising in a long match.

As creature answers, Cunning Sparkmage feels underpair, and stingscourger is only nice against tinkerbot/emrakul (without dragon breath). I don't like lightning in a field with so many MM, but still play a couple. I played 3 pyrokinesis in the SB but didn't like them, they can be cut for a 2x1 easily. I tryied a couple of jittes in the sb and they are nice, and have to try SOFI as suggested here, both recoverable with welders. And I haven't decided with Porcelain Leggionaire, he's quite vanilla, but a decent clock and kills most critters around while being playable from the first turn. I'm favourable to make a really controlling deck and don't like those kind a creatures, but can be really helping in some pairings.
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« Reply #130 on: January 22, 2012, 10:37:07 am »

I got yesterday a poor 3-3 in the local league (58 people) playing this deck:

25 creatures
4 magus of the moon
4 simian spirit guide
4 lodestone golem
3 viashino heretic
3 goblin welder
3 phyrexian metamorph
2 jaya ballard, task mage
2 lord of shatterskull pass


spells 12
4 chalice of the void
3 null rod
3 blood moon
2 lightning bolt

manabase 23
4 ancient tomb
12 mountain
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt

sideboard
3 pyrostatic pillar
3 stranglehold
1 viashino heretic
1 smash to smithereens
2 umezawa's jitte
2 pulverize
1 pyrokinesis
1 tormod's crypt
1 summoning trap


1st round Confidant Control

He opens with lotus, ancestral, confidant/walk, and 3 turns later he replays all with a yawgmoth's will. He counts spells but he does not have enough storm. However, he takes a lot of advantage and is able to counter all my menaces and wins striking with a confidant and a vendillion.
In the second one I have to mulligan, I drop a welder and viashino, and he plays a confidant. He forces something with a sower (quite awkward to remove a sower against me). He is taking damage from the confidant and a crypt, and I have the viashino to prevent him attacking. I play a lord of shatterskull pass, he tutors another sower and takes it, but then I play another one after he attacked me one turn. I have not mana to level it out now, so I prefer to trade lords and wait him to kill himself with the crypt. He wins 2 dice rolls when he is at 3, drains a jaya, plays a mistical for repeal (targeting crypt), and wins 2 turns later with sower.

(0-2, 0 points)

2nd round, noble fish
he opens with fetchland, go, and 2nd turn he plays meddling to magus of the moon, 3rd turn qasali, 4th turn meddling for blood moon. He counters my lightning and I'm never in.
in the second i open with land, crypt, sol ring, golem and he forces it. he plays a noble, passes, I play a second golem and he plays a tarmo. I attack with the golem and he trades, i can play chalice at 2 but have run out of menaces, and he plays a trygon and I'm done

(0-2, 0 points)

3rd round, ichorid
i keep a 7card hand with wasteland. he wins the dice again but mulls to only one card. however, the first card he draws is a bazaar, I waste it, and then he draws another bazaar! i strip it and play a moon, luckily bazaars didn't get dredgers and I win.
In the second match I play a moon in my first turn, but he could bazaar 1 time and then all the time has 7 cards and discards one. I stuck at 3 lands and could neither play golem nor lord, so i slowly lose.
in the third match i have a waste for his bazaar, and then play a magus, but he already had dredgers. He dredges for 6 and 3 bridges go to grave. I play a jaya ballard, but he can play a therapy to a bloodghast, creating 3 zombies before jaya inmolates. I play 2 golems and attack, expecting to win the race, but he hits a land recovering 2 bloodghasts and I lost the race. Have I drawn a pyrokinesis or lightning, or another critter, i would likely win, but drew 3 mana sources straight.

(1-2, 0 points after three rounds)

At this moment I feel like this deck is crap. I couldn't stop confidants, noble, not ichorid, althought noble seemed the only unwinnable.


4th round, bye

5th round, mud
We both drop crypts, I play blood moon and he plays spheres and tangles. I'm winning the race but have to play magus instead jaya because I only have untapped 1 mountain and 1 crypt, and then he plays precursor golem. I'm getting hurt by crypt so when I drop jaya, i have to block wiith her and die.
In the second match i have pulverize and 2 mountains, so i happily keep. however, he does not apply any pressure, I drop a viashino and easily win the match without having to use the pulverize.
in the last match he is getting hurt by crypt again, but has played 2 tangles and 2 spheres and i have little action. When he plays a precursor golem, i have smash to smithereens in hand, so i play it with the help of a simian. those 9 points put him to 2, and another crypt activation kills him.

(2-1, 6 points)


6th round,  noble fish
His deck is more controlling than aggro. While it achieves great results in our league, it benefits me. in the first match I mull, he opens with preordain, and I play chalice at 1. i play crypt and moon, and he does not play anything (he does not play basics), but does not want to scoop until I play enough menaces.
In the second match, be opens with fetchland, but i open with another moon effect, and scoops.


At the end, 9 points. I probably drop some viashinos, and I would seriously think lowering casting costs of the deck. 6 cc4 cards felt too much sometimes, and while I find 19 cc3 cards a decent amount, some 2 land hands are unkeepable. Cage should make a great impact in this deck, and I'll explore some changes maybe without golems and viashinos and playing vexing sushers and rebs. Golem is probably the best card in the deck after moon effects, but shusher and rebs could work great in a control environment.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #131 on: January 29, 2012, 11:38:22 pm »

All of us seem to be running into the same issues with this deck.  Namely you seem to have to pick your poison between tarmogoyf, tinker/bsc, and vault/key.  All of these win cons have a one thing in common.  They don't require more than 1 colored mana.  This obviously makes blood moons bad at stopping them.

Chaos Warp?
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« Reply #132 on: January 30, 2012, 07:59:11 am »

All of us seem to be running into the same issues with this deck.  Namely you seem to have to pick your poison between tarmogoyf, tinker/bsc, and vault/key.  All of these win cons have a one thing in common.  They don't require more than 1 colored mana.  This obviously makes blood moons bad at stopping them.

Chaos Warp?

Every deck ive seen running goyf has a 20-30% chance of flipping into another win con so i wouldnt really consider it an answer to goyf.  As a result of this you cant even play it to answer vault/key and tinker/bsc against gro because they have goyfs.
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xouman
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« Reply #133 on: January 30, 2012, 11:28:38 am »

I agree that those 3 are the main common threats from drain decks. I have cotv at 2 for tarmo and vault, viashino for BSC and vault, and metamorph for tarmo and BSC. Each of those covers 2 of 3 threats, and are quite useful in other situations. But the problem is that we aren't too good closing matches, so opponent has time to recover or drop another menace.

With cage we can try to drop null rod and add ratchet bomb. Ratchet bomb against creatures sounds great, most creatures have CC2, but none of out creatures has. Still trygon can be a problem, so I'm not sure.

If decks start playing more creatures, I'll probably stop playing this deck for a while, or maybe think another approach.
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xouman
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« Reply #134 on: February 17, 2012, 07:27:11 pm »

Today I've played another tournament, just a little one with 12 players.

27 creatures
3 magus of the moon
4 simian spirit guide
4 lodestone golem
3 pyrexian revoker
3 viashino heretic
3 goblin welder
3 phyrexian metamorph
2 jaya ballard, task mage
2 lord of shatterskull pass


spells 10
4 chalice of the void
3 blood moon
2 lightning bolt
1 smash to smithereens

manabase 23
4 ancient tomb
12 mountain
2 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 black lotus
1 mox ruby

sideboard
1 viashino heretic
2 null rod
2 umezawa's jitte
2 pulverize
2 pyrokinesis
1 tormod's crypt
1 summoning trap
4 grafdigger's cage


1st round- gush shapcasters (2-0, 3 points)

He mulligans to 5 in both matches, while I keep 7 cards hands. Lord of shatterskull cames quickly in first match, and I think that golem seals the second.

2nd round- BGW control (2-0, 6 points)

He knows what I play, and plays a T1 noble, T2 ooze. I play a blood moon T2 and T3 Jaya ballard. Next turn I kill his noble, and then a magus and he scoops.
In the second match he plays a sylvan library and I attack several times with a revoker and a welder. he swords the welder and tinkers but I have a metamorph in hand. We exchange BSCs and revoker wins the game.


3rd round- ichorid (1-2, 6 points)

I put him on tezzeret and I'm happy to open with T1 chalice of the void with 0 counters. He wins on T2.
I keep a hand with welder, COTV and cage. He chewers the cage, but welder gets cage again and he scoops.
I keep a hand with T2 blood moon and pyrokinesis, but in his T2 he already has 2 narcomebas, 2 bloodghasts, 1 ichorid, 1 bridge and 2 therapies on the grave... he wins next turn.


4th round- snapcasters control (2-1, 9 points)

I beat him slowly with a welder and a viashino. He has 2 cities of brass and also takes some damage. At the very end I missplay, tapping myself to play 1 welder when he is at 3, having a smash to smithereens at hand, and he barely wins with a yawgmoth's will, but he cannot get it.
Next match he opens with library, and I don't get any moon or strip for the next 10 turns. Also, he plays a couple of grudges that crumble 3 revokers and a golem.
In the last game I open with chalice at 0 and cage- T2 magus, T3 golem, T4 metamorph copying golem. He shows a hand with lotus, 2 moxes and tinker...


I didn't miss null rods, revoker feels better. Opponents happily trade him with vendillions or snapcasters, and shuts Jace who can be a really nuisance. Cage is fine, but you need to put some pressure, or it's quite dead.

In 9 hoursI have another tournament, I'll play the same list (with less cages, that tournament do not allow proxies :p)
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Ozymandias
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« Reply #135 on: February 27, 2012, 01:26:44 am »

I top 4'd my local tourney today. I beat B/W hate, Cobra Gush, and UBR Bob Control. I lost to BUG fish and MUD (needed one mountain!). Here was the list I played

//Unpower
4 Null Rod
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
//Other Dudes
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Viashino Heretic
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Genju of the Spires
//Spells
4 Dismember
4 Red Elemental Blast
//Mana
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Arid Mesa
7 Mountain
//Sideboard
2 Greater Gargadon
1 Trinisphere
1 Genju of the Spires
2 Pyroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pyrokinesis
3 Pulverize
2 Umezawa's Jitte

The sideboard is a mess, and I think I need all my dudes to be purely disruptive. I would probably cut the Genjus (sadly) for something that provides me with real card advantage, or another disruptor.
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xouman
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« Reply #136 on: February 27, 2012, 11:44:50 am »

Congrats for your top! I've played a couple tournaments more, those are the rough summaries:

2012/02/18 mataro (52 people)

1st round, turbo kuldotha tezz
He plays a kuldotha and beats, while I sit with a welder. I keep a metamorph in hand but have to play it when we plays another kuldotha.l Then I draw a golem and win easily.
In second round, he plays a voltaic key, is T2 he missplays not playing a vault and then I play a cotv at 2 and win easily with a golem.

2nd round MUD
I control both matches with viashinos and welders

3rd round MUD
I control both matches with welders and metamorphs.

4th round Oath
He is a close friend and we intend to draw, but someone advices us to play, so someone will make top8 automatically, and I lose.

5th round Bomberman.
He plays first, and in T3 has auriok, spellbomb and lotus.
In second match he kills 2 revokers and 1 susher with Engineered explosives, and then slowly beats with a kataki, when he was at 4 and I had a lightning bolt in hand. He cut all creatures I drop or swords them.

6th round bomberman.
he wins first match (can't remember how), I win next one with magus, and the last one he opens with SFM for batterskull. I play jaya, with null rod in play, and I thought batterskull flies so I don't block + activate jaya Sad When I realize that batterskull does not fly it's too late


Btw, I changed null rods for revokers in the main deck. Totally worth it.


2012/02/25 Barcelona - 20 people

This tournament allows proxies, so I include 1 memory jar, 1 mountain, 1 tolarian, 1 lotus and 5 moxen for 4 wastelands, 1 strip mine, 4 simian spirit guide. Also kept revokers instead null rods.

1th round snapcasters
I play T1 magus, T2 golem (both countered), T3 blood moon, T4 lord of shatterskull pass... win easily.
In second match also land quick moon and golems. he kills golems but welder gets them again.

2nd round ichorid
I start but can't play moon until T2, and he bazaars once. He discards a troll, then dredges T2 troll, T3 troll, T4 troll, T5 troll and has enough zombies to win.
In second round i open with moon and tormods, and he scoops.
In third round I play a T2 moon but he is not really quick. However, he is able to get 3 bloodghasts and sacrifice them to get cenobyte into play and wins.

3rd round snapcasters
I mulligan and have T1 moon and jaya (with mox, solring and lotus), but both get countered, and I have no hand. He topdecks lotus for confidant and starts drawing 2 each turn. At middle game, I active jar, play tolarian to kill his, and then we missplay because he takes blue mana from tolarian (he couldn't!) to play mystical tutor. He wins thanks to that tutor, countering my revoker on the jace he had in play.
In second game, he plays T1 library, and I can't land a moon in all the game. He also plays ancestral twice because of snapcaster, and I can't get over so much card advantage.

4th round UGw control
in first match i play welder, he plays trygon and I metamorph it. he plays vendillion and I have to do tricks with welder and metamorph to kill vendillion and still block his trygon. finally i can play lord of shatterskull pass to kill it's trygon (he double blocked), and after some turns I win with a sencond metamorph
in second match he can play ancestral twice and I cannot recover the game.
in last match I play early magus, then golem, then metamorph... gg

5th round UGw control
in first match I have to mulligan to 6 but still kept a bad hand with a viashino (quite crap in this pairing), and then my first draw is another viashino. an exalted tarmo gets the game.
in second match he draws and awful lot of cards and every threat i play is countered or sworded.


In general, I lose when opponent gets lots of card advantage.
Tarmogoyfs are a problem, but can be handled with metamorphs or if I have a welder in play.
Ichorid feels winnable, but I need moon + cage to seal the game (or welder to recover cage when destroyed).
Viashino is great against mud, feels nice against vault (but since you have to save mana, it's so-so) but it's poor in aggro matches, altought it blocks confidants and snapcasters.
welder is nuts. I have to play 4 as long as I play golems.
metamorph is sometimes dead, but most of the time is a great card to have in hand. In aggro matches it's great, and copying snapcasters to flire lightning bolts is really nice.
revoker is better than null rod, but I hate to have it in my open hand and not playing it because I don't know what to cut...
chalice is great, and better with susher. susher didn't win any game by itself, but it was because he always took swords, lightnings and fire(//ice).
Jace is more troubling that it seems for a deck with 25 creatures. bouncing welders hurts a lot, and controlling your draws is painful.
I don't think dismember it's a true solution, 4 lives are a lot in my deck since I play metamopths and ancient tombs. I play pirokinesis in the side and it's better for me.
I haven't tested rebs for a while. Maybe I'll try to play sushers and rebs in the main, but I'd hate to drop welder+golem. However, susher + reb would have saved me lots of matches.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #137 on: February 27, 2012, 12:16:19 pm »

Quote
I top 4'd my local tourney today.


Congrats!  I like your list a lot Smile

Peace,

-Troy
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Tobi
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« Reply #138 on: February 28, 2012, 04:22:27 am »

@xouman
Can you share your list please?
edit: sorry, just realized you posted it above. Thanks  Smile

I also tried to build a list that plays a Moon effect quickly, and I felt there is some potential in it. Still, I didn't find the optimal list yet.
Dredge is a big problem that needs to be solved if you want to take this deck to a major tournament.

Btw Chaos Warp is very good in this deck. Solution for BSC, Goyf and pesty basic Islands  Smile
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 06:22:11 am by Tobi » Logged

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xouman
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« Reply #139 on: February 28, 2012, 06:38:26 am »

Hi Tobi, those are the unpowered and powered lists:

Unpowered

27 creatures
3 magus of the moon
4 simian spirit guide
4 lodestone golem
3 pyrexian revoker
3 viashino heretic
3 goblin welder
3 phyrexian metamorph
2 jaya ballard, task mage
2 lord of shatterskull pass

spells 10
4 chalice of the void
3 blood moon
2 lightning bolt
1 grafdigger's cage

manabase 23
4 ancient tomb
12 mountain
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt

sideboard
1 viashino heretic
2 null rod
1 umezawa's jitte
2 pulverize
1 tormod's crypt
1 ravenous trap
3 pyrostatic pillar
1 smash to smithereens
3 vexing susher



Powered
24 creatures
4 magus of the moon
4 lodestone golem
3 pyrexian revoker
3 viashino heretic
3 goblin welder
3 phyrexian metamorph
2 jaya ballard, task mage
2 lord of shatterskull pass

spells 11
4 chalice of the void
3 blood moon
2 lightning bolt
1 memory jar
1 grafdigger's cage

manabase 25
4 ancient tomb
12 mountain
1 tolarian academy
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
5 moxen
1 black lotus

sideboard
1 viashino heretic
2 null rod
1 umezawa's jitte
2 pulverize
1 tormod's crypt
1 ravenous trap
3 vexing susher
1 smash to smithereens
3 pyrostatic pillar



In the power deck I included memory jar as major change. It gave me one match, and give me great advantage in second match (against a T1 confidant) to equalice card advantage. In first activation I got a mox, cage, 2 revokers, 1 land, magus, metamorph. But next 2 activations were crap, no moxen, lots of lands, just 1 golem and a couple of welders (plus the one I had in play). Memory Jar feels very powerful in this power version, but I'm not sure if can be supported without moxen.

Welders and metamorphs would go to 4of, you always want a welder. It kills BSC, recovers golems/cages, does tricks with revokers/metamorphs to block tarmos and other fatties.

Cage also should be 3/4. It's dead in some pairings, but most of the time is useful, and welder can always trade it for something more useful if needed.

Null rod stays out until vault strikes hard again. Viashino, revoker and welder, plus cotv get them at bay most of the time. Not sure about wastelands, I need at least 12 mountains.


Ozymandias list feels more traditional, with shamans and null rods, but current aggro control decks should pass over it, and I must face a lot in my meta. I have opted not to attack the manabase, only secondary types (moon usually takes black and green from drain decks, and leaves fishes with problems), allowing myself to play greater mana costs and then more powerful cards. It's not the same facing a shaman than a golem, but I agree that that list would strain opponent lots of times.
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xouman
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« Reply #140 on: April 01, 2012, 01:35:34 pm »

Hi again. I played another tournament and after starting fine (2-1) went to a discouragein 2-4, against ankward pairings. I played a week ago and can't remember a lot but are again in seek of advise:

1st round UW control. My life goes to 12 because of ancient tomb or Aven, can't remember. He drops a batterskull, I metamorph it and we trade. Then life drops 5 by 5 - lodestone rules!. In the second match he mulligans to 6, but opens with lotus and double SFM (for batterskull and SOFI). Nevertheless, I open with welder and T2 metamorph, welding his sofi for lotus and metamorphing batterskull. I draw a second metamorph but keep it in hand and it goes down because of vendillion (even I have a magus, he has plenty of basic). Finally a third metamorph seals the game after a long game. Welder and metamorph sealed the round.

2nd round white trash. He drops lots of creatures, and starts beating. I got a golem sworded and recover some life, while I can  slowly kill 2 avens with jaya. He keeps only a batterskull but just in time I play a lord of shatterskull pass pumping it. When it reaches its last level I attack killing the spawn of the batterskull. I play a metamorph for lord, but in my eot he plays his third and last aven and swings the next turn FTW. In the second match I mulligan to 6, and open with ancient tomb, mana crypt, COTV at 2. Next turn simian spirit guide and then a welder that gets sworded, but the crypt hits me 5 times of 6. I can't draw more creatures and when he is at 7 (and I'm at 1) he can play abolish to chalice and I'm done.

3rd round UWG. He plays a couple of legionnaries, I metamorph one and trade, when he plays a trygon welder makes a copy of it and jaya kills both the trygon and the second legionnarie. In the second match we trade 3 lands (he plays 1 wasteland and I play 1 waste and q strip mine) he has few mana and a magus beats him to death

4th round oath. A very difficult pairing, and I don't know what is he playing. He plays oath in quickly in the first match, showing an emrakul (which I metamorph) and then an emrakul with haste (I had a welder online). I win second match with quickly blood moon and cage (he could play show & tell for oath, but realizes too late). I keep a slow hand in third match, with a chalice (meaning to be at 2), but just he finds the oath and that's all.

5th round MUD. That is not a difficult pairing, but he wins the dice and opens with T1 panther, T2 panther. I have a T1 welder but he has any artifact in the grave. I play magus with a tomb and trade for a panther. I draw another magus but panther strikes and tomb kill me. I missplayed because I could have welded 1 attacking panther for the panther in the grave, though, but he had played tangle and I wanted mana to play magus and block his panther. In second round I open with welder, and he opens with crucible. I chewer his crucible, and he plays metamorph for my welder, and next turn tangle. I weld his crucible for metamorph, but he plays revoker and later duplicant on my welder... I'm never in.

6 round goblins. I'm well positioned after I got a few strikes, but he plays lightning crafter, killing my golem. I play revoker on crafter, and he tutors sharpshooter, killing welder, revoker, and wins easily. In next game I open with ancient tomb legionarie, followed by T2 metamorph on legionarie (that puts me on 12). Then I play a golem and have another metamorph in hand, but he topdecks crash, killing the golem, and I play a magus. while I wait for another creature he draws pyrokinesis killing all my dudes and finishing me.


I didn't face any jace, any snapcaster, any mana drain, any vault... but a lot of aggro and one oath. While oath and goblins are tough pairings, MUD isn't, and white trash feels favourable. I played 1 jitte in the main, because I expected a bit more aggro that usual (but no so much) but only drawn it once, and i had a COTV2 in play. I only play 2 lightnings in the main and 2 jaya, but I'm thinking to play more.

Also I was thinking to drop blood moons (as the metagame gets more aggro, the less impact they have) for faithless looting. It works nice with welder and helps me to find solutions while getting out needless cards:

4 lodestone golem
3 phyrexian metamorph
4 magus of the moon
4 simian spirit guide
3 goblin welder
3 viashino heretic
2 jaya ballard, task mage
2 lord of shatterskull pass

4 chalice of the void
3 grafdigger's cage
3 Faithless looting
2 lightning bolt
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt

12 mountain
4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb
1 strip mine

sideboard
3 phyrexian revoker
3 magus of the scroll
1 grafdigger's cage
1 tormod's crypt
1 ravenous trap
2 pulverize
1 smash to smithereens
1 pyrokinesis
2 lightning bolt
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« Reply #141 on: April 28, 2012, 04:23:41 pm »

Hi again. It's kind of silly, because I'm the most (and maybe unique) active user in this thread, but today I've made a top-8 with this deck in a 49 player tournament. Although I'm a quite usual player, I hadn't done a top in 23 months, even I've played powered decks as tezz, oath...

This is the list:

12 mountain
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

1 sol ring
1 mana crypt

4 lodestone golem
3 phyrexian metamorph
2 phyrexian revoker
2 null rod
1 grafdigger's cage

4 magus of the moon
4 simian spirit guide
3 goblin welder
2 viashino heretic
2 lord of shatterskull pass
2 jaya ballard, task mage

3 lightning bolt
2 blood moon
2 faithless looting
1 smash to smithereens

sideboard
1 trinisphere
1 pyrokinesis
1 anarchy
3 grafdigger's cage
1 tormod's crypt
1 ravenous trap
2 viashino heretic
1 phyrexian revoker
1 jester's cap
1 pulverize
2 red elemental blast


1st round Snapconfidants (2-0, 3 points)
He gets nuts with ancestral, snapcaster, ancestral, and later he plays a confidant who gets bolted, and later a trinket mage. I try to play few creatures but all get countered or sworderd (at some point I count 5 spells and 9 lands for me). When I'm at 4, i succesfully play a lord of shatterskull pass (losp), block trinket, and draw another creature next turn to change for snapcaster. I don't attack until I have another creature (I'm at 2 and if he plays a snapcaster he would win). I draw another creature quickñy and lord goes all the way. Next match is easier, I quicky get a 2/x (can't remember which) and his lives came dawon quickly as I play two more

2nd round Ichorid (2-1, 6 points)
In first match,he opens with a 7 card god hand, and I concede in his second turn even I had a T2 magus.
In second match, he has to mulligan to 3, and I play a T1 cage, T2 blood moon, T3 magus, with ravenous in hand
In third match, he mulligans to 1 and I have T1 magus. Sorry for him.

3rd round Demon oath (2-1, 9 points)
I know he plays demon oath, and mulligan a hand with welder, golem, lightning and 4 lands, to keep a hand with a null rod. The match is quite slow, he lays an oath without orchard I don't play any creatures until I draw the cage or have enough mana to drop several menaces. However, he finally lays a orchard, I play magus and viashino, he oaths a demon and wins attacking with him 3 times without fetching anything else (I couldn't go faster).
In second round I open again with null rod, and a quick blood moon under an oath, after wasting a couple of orchards. However we have time and I play lands slowly until I have 2 or 3 cages, and then drop creatures to win.
in the third match, I open with null rod again, and i draw lots of wastes. when he has only 1 land and no oath, i play golem + metamorph and he concedes.

4th round Stax (2-0, 12 points)
This is probably my best pairing, and he does not remember my deck even we have played a couple of times before. In first match he opens with mox+sol ring + chalice 1, i play null rod. he plays crucible, and a riashadan, i play magus. then i play golem and that's all.
in second match he opens with crypt, golem and chalice at 0, while i have the crypt in hand :p i play solring T1, T2 lightning and then waste him 3 or 4 times, digging with looting, while his crypt and a 2/x of mine kill him

5th round mud (1-1, 13 points)
i'm the only who can't draw with 12 points, because my opoment has 9 points. in first match he opens with T1 cotv at 1 and 2. i play a T2 magus, T3 jaya and that's all.
in round 2 he mulligans to 5, and me to 6. he opens with sphere, and i play mountain crypt. he does not apply pressure and I play T2 magus, T3 viashino... at that point, I offer him to draw, because I'm in with 13 points and he still has an oppoirtunity to make top.

6 round id


top 8 bomberman (1-2)
He mulligans to 6. I drop an magus and a golem, and win quickñy. in second match he punts into play a jace and controls me perfectly; in concede when he tells me he has 4 counters in hand. Ihad mulliganed and kept a hand with only 1 business, and drew a lot of lands more. in the last, he has sensei and jace, and I can't find any answer. I have a welder and simian who killed his jace lots of turns later (between repeals and bouncers with jace). when i could get rid of jace and play a lord of shaterskull, he plays an auriok, (with lotus in grave) i try to pyrokinesis him, but he fows. he plays trinket, fetchs for a nihil and draws all his deck while having infinite mana. he was at 4, i only needed one more turn... but too late Smile


I'll move grafdigger's to the side, maybe for another looting. Looting is really good, at the beginning it fetches lands/business (null rod/magus), and later it cycles redundant cards for better cards. probably 3 could be too much, but I'll try madness cards.to take profit of it. And I'll try sulfur elemental, jace is REALLY a pain in my ass, it's by far the card who beats me more times, or just wins lot of tempo.



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Guli
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« Reply #142 on: April 28, 2012, 06:26:02 pm »

thanks for the report, I really enjoyed it. I wonder now if looting is what I am looking for as a cycle effect in my own beat variations. Could you explain faithless looting more in detail? Give more examples in depth?
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xouman
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« Reply #143 on: April 29, 2012, 04:34:41 am »

Thanks Guli!

Well, this is the second time I playes Looting. The first one was 2 weeks ago, in a proxied event, and I played a couple of copies thinking to abuse some middle cost robot (Hellkite, Wurmcoil or Battlesphere) with welder (I already play Jaya, and playing proxies having 6-7 mana is not impossible in a few turns). In the end I only played Memory Jar as relevant welder target, other than Golem or Phyrexians, and Looting didn't shine because matches were faster (in a proxied event, non-high competitive, people play faster decks, or it seems so to me). Also, I side out them lots of times.

But yesterday I wanted to do Looting another chance. First I considered a moonless deck, taking out blood moons and simians, and playing thorns and creatures that blow lands. Quickly I took out thorns and only left 1 or 2 copies of dwarven blastminer. I also considered a Liquimetal Coating deck (with viashinos, gorilas, tinkerer...), but it feels unplayable without blur or black, and I didn't want to change 40 cards. At the end, I got the original deck, took out chalices and 1 blood moon and added 2 null rods, 1 lightning and 2 lootings.

How does looting work? First, it's another 1CC spell. When this deck featured 4 COTV, the only 1CC spells were 3 welder, 1 sol ring and 2 lightnings. I'd drop welder before COTV, and I'll only play COTV at 1 against pairings were bolt is not really important. So, even cotv is better at 0 (first turn) or 2 (it's MASSIVE against most decks, really), I could play it at 1 easily. Said so, it's a 1cc spell that can be used in the very first turn, after null rod and welder. Playing it in the first turn does not seem optimal, but it's a great searcher for magus and blood moon, to ensure a T2 moon effect.

Then, for some turns, it's not a relevant card, but from turn 2 to 5, you should have some business. The mana curve is quite high in this deck, and it's mainly because I want to play 1 threat each turn, more huge than other beats decks, even slower, but because I have no draw engine, I don't have any rush. And then from turn 5 to the end of the game, drawing 2+2 cards is really important in mono red. Besides, if they counter one copy, they have to counter the other copy too! Discarding cards could be a nuisance, but think that: if you don't have anything to discard it's because you are drawing great, so you really don't need looting and you would be probably winning. And then when you have 6 mana around, you can easily discard lands, or that useless crypt in hand, or a redundant blood moon, and some cards maindecked that are not good in the first game, as cage or viashino (depending on the pairing).

I used it against Oath, when we were draw and go looking for Orchard and cage (looting digs deeper than preordain). I used it against mud (after tapping myself with Tangle and laying a mountain) in order to get more lands. I would have used it against Jace whan he is looking at your top, but he put it down. When jace is fatesealing, you would have lots of crap in hand, and looting allows you to clean hand. I didn't drawn it against ichorid and it's not a great card, but at least allows you to find for more hate, only if you already have some hate (moon is my best hate against ichorid).

The more I thought, the less I want a third copy because there is a limit for the cards you want to discard. When I tested 3 copies, lots of times I ending discarding a looting due to the effect of another looting. Sulfur elemental sounds better as I can play it in response of a tangle effect, playing it in your EOT to kill your jace... this is not a teach of mine but a local league player, "Chicuelo", a great player and designer. But still is not a definitive card against blue card advantage (snapcaster, trinket and jace). I played 2 rebs in the side but never drawn one yesterday, maybe i should play another one in the sb...
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Guli
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« Reply #144 on: April 29, 2012, 05:14:50 am »

Thanks for the extra insight! I congratulate you for the top 8. I agree that a 'looting' effect is very valuable. I have been looking for a good one myself lately. I call it 'looting effect' because there are other cards that use that term and do some drawing and discarding.
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xouman
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« Reply #145 on: April 30, 2012, 03:53:57 am »

Thanks Guli! looting effect sound quite appropiate. I'd played looter il-kor in a rogues deck, and it's a quite useful effect. When I included Faithless looting I intended to play 1-2 Fiery Temper instead bolt (avoids MM, cotv for 1 and it's not disadvantage with Jaya and looting) but couldn't find them. Probably I'll try them, 1RR is quite achievable and the only advantage i find for bolt is T1 golem (and Stax is currently my best matchup)

Now I have a question. In last months this list has lost one match to Goblins, panther mud,  white thrash and a couple of times to oath. However I lost everytime I faced bomberman and I lost to a resolved Jace nearly 90% of the time. I maindeck about 26 creatures to kill it, play 2-3 bolts, 2-3 revokers, 1 smash to smithereens, played 2 rebs in the side, plus mana denial to make harder to play jace. Neverteless, I keep losing to it. I have thought to play sulfur elemental (as said) and lightning greaves, in order to attack a jace with haste (for example, if he has just bounced a creature) and avoid my creatures being bounced or sworded. And do things as "play welder, equip greaves, change x for golem in the grave, equip golem, attack" or activate a just casted jaya/viashino feels solid. I'm not really sold, and my current changes for the list would be +1 fiery temper, +1 null rod and +1 trinisphere for -1 bolt, -1 grafdigger's cage and -1 smash to smithereens.

What would you change to increase opportunities against jace? Some suggested Koth, but sounds really weak. It would be solid against oath and jace, but so-so against other pairings, and I'll usually prefer a golem/lord for CC4. The finisher is nice against other pairings, but the second ability is nearly useless in my current configuration. What do you think?
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Guli
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« Reply #146 on: April 30, 2012, 06:20:50 am »

I use cavern of souls to replay my threat. They can't keep bouncing and countering my threat is also out of the question. I am surprised that even with your hate, jace still is a problem.
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xouman
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« Reply #147 on: May 07, 2012, 04:00:24 am »

Another tournament (this one allowed 9 proxies) and another chance for TMWA, playing chalices, memory jar, tolarian, lightning grezves, lotus and 6 moxen for null rods, wastelands, strip, simians, and 1 bolt (roughly)

first match, I win vial wizards 2-0. In the first match he has qasali and metamorph into qasali and it's beating me, but I draw the mana needed in the last chance to play a golem to trade, and next turn another golem to trade again. I am at 1, but with 4 mana I can play all my cards and lord gets the difference. In the second match I keep a hand with 2 moxen and tolarian, and he opens with chalice. Another time I'm nearly lost as he is beating with a meddling (on magus) and voidmage, but I draw a red source in the last moment and he allows a blood moon to come in (he has fow, and uses it on the same turn welder). With access to red mana. I can play creatures to trade with his and then play a revoker to annul vials. I ended at 1 again.

second match i lost against UBW control, with jaces, SFM, confidants, snapcasters... First game I lose to batterskull. The turn before he plays batterskull I activate jar but don't draw any land, only one mox, and had high CC spells, so I only can play 1 spell besides mox and he has drawn fow. In the second match he controls me quite easily with 2 confidants and top, while I have a viashino and probably a welder. Eventualy he finds a swords for viashino and revoker and when he has 8 cards in hand I realize I haven't any chance to win and concede.

third round I face tezzeret. I play turn 1 golem, turn 2 magus... she scoops quickly. In game 2 she opens with lotus mox land tezz and I don't have answer. In game 3 she mulligans to 4 or 5, and I open with chalice at 0. i win quickly again, and she shows me her hand with a mox and a couple of trygons... if I had't play the cotv, I could have lost. We play another game for fun and she wins me by playing turn 1 key, I revoker, turn 2 hurkyl's eot and turn 3 vault. I was lucky to win the die, because every match was won by opener.

fourth round I lose against bomberman (the same guy who won me in the top one week ago). I keep a solid hand with welder and golem, and put pressure with a lord. When he is at 4 he produces infinite mana with auriok+lotus, and trinket fetches the nihil to win. In second match I keep a similar hand, and again he has infinite mana. when he plays repeal to trinket (to search for nihil), i weld golem for mox ruby so i can play lightning on trinket, but he has another repeal and wins. I didn't saw any chalice or revoker. I dropped after losing this game.


I keep losing against jace and bomberman. I also lost to batterskull, but it's winnable with welders, viashinos, lords, smash to smithereens, plus null rods and revokers help. The problem is I can't figure a beats/fish deck capable of winning to jace control and bomberman. I'm considering adding white, thalia would be a great add-in, also mindcensor and other critters could do well, but it would involve lots of changes and I'm not sold. If only thalia was red...
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« Reply #148 on: May 24, 2012, 08:32:25 am »

Welcome again to xouman's diary and his crappy TMLA. After Annecy, this weekend I have another local league tourmanent. I don't expect drastic metagame changes, maybe some fish decks with cavern, Giselbrand decks, but a good amount of MUD, Stax and specially big blue. And 5-10% of ichorid, you can't always stay safe :p

I was thinking to play 2-3 maindeck missteps, but at the end I think I'll play chalices again in the main. Or should I test missteps? Well, I'm not sure at all. The main idea of the deck is to have opponent have as much dead cards as possible, with the following premises:

-Moons restrict mana color. So off-color spells are uncastable.
-Mana denial (wastes, golems) makes high mana spells uncastable.
-Chalice makes CCx spells uncastable.


Before making a final idea, I also searched for a draw engine. I lose matches by one of these issues (mainly):
-Opponent gets combo pieces (vault+key, auriok+lotus+spellbomb) or developes too early and counters my first answer. There is little I can do Smile
-Opponent has a solid menace and I can't answer properly (oath/show and tell mainly). This is why we play a sideboard.
-Opponent gets card avantage (jace, snapcaster, trinket) or I keep drawing lands. Well, now I have a problem. I play a quite slow deck and want to have the edge in long matches.

This third point is what annoys me. I have included faithless looting as a good card filter, and till now works nicely, and I have think of two more cards:

-Countryside Crusher. A decent body for a reasonable cost, that improves with time. Pros: great filtering, improves every turn. Cons: hasn't a quick impact on the game. Double red is harder than it seems.

-Skullclamp. I tried it in my first approach to TMWA (with black) but was unimpressed. It's best use was attracting fows, but won few matches. But I like it because it's a great way to take profit from simians, redundant magus, and get 3x1 (or at least 2x1) against creatures' decks. Pros: every creature improves with a skullclamp, can help killing faster but of course I draw cards. Cons: dead card by itself, quite slow.


So:

scenario 1 - 4 chalices + 2 skullclamp: Chalice would be at 0 or 2 90% of the time. As I only play 1 0CC card (mana crypt) and 2 CC2 cards (revoker x 2), it's quite asymetric against most of the field other than ichorid and to a less extend MUD. Chalice at 0 in T1 means no moxen, no bomberman, no storm combo... At 2 I get rid of most fish/beats creatures (at least without Caverns, and I hope to play moon/waste and disrupt cavern effect), SFM, drain, oath,  grudges...  Skullclamp allows me to attack for a bit more or at least "cycle" my creatures.

Scenario 2 - 3 null rod + 3 misstep. Null rod is better at nullifing moxen, top, vault, also hits bomberman... Not good in multiples, though. Misstep is more unexpected than chalice, can't be grudged/claimed, but is life loss, can be countered, does not represent CA, and does not cut the cards I fear most (most CC2: oath, snapcaster, drain, SFM, grudge, confidant). It counters swords and ancestral, and that's not a little thing, but it's not the same.


As you can see, this post is more oriented to clarify my mind than to explain/ask, but I'll be grateful for your opinions. This is the list I'll play now:

4 magus of the moon
2 blood moon
4 simian spirit guide

4 lodestone golem
2 lord of shatterskull pass

3 goblin welder
2 viashino heretic
2 pyrexian revoker
2 phyrexian metamorph
1 jaya ballard, task mage

4 chalice of the void
2 faithless looting
2 lightning bolt
2 skullclamp
1 grafdigger's cage

1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb
12 mountain

sideboard:
2 pyrexian revoker -> bomberman, jace, vault, kuldotha, vial...
2 viashino heretic -> batterskull, mud, vault
2 pyrokinesis -> creatures
2 ingot chewer -> mud, ichorid, batterskull (any better idea for these slots?)
3 grafdigger's cage -> oath, ichorid
3 pyrostatic pillar -> bomberman, combo, snapcasters
1 ravenous trap -> ichorid

Thanks for your time and sorry for the loooong post
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Ozymandias
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« Reply #149 on: May 24, 2012, 04:34:48 pm »

Ichor Wellspring was my best bet for a draw engine in Mountains. If you're willing to go deep on Welders, and maybe even greater Gargadon, you can set up a pretty good card advantage engine. It also dodges Rods. I would consider something like:


4 Lodestone Golem
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Null Rod
4 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Greater Gargadon
4 Goblin Welder
2 Faithless looting
4 Mental Misstep
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ichor Wellspring
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient tomb
10 Mountain

as an opener.
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