The Mountains Win Again is Back!

[vaughnbros]

The last time I played a variant of this deck was about a year ago and I went 6-6 in two tournaments with a pretty substantial black splash.  (Basically the same shell all of the builds have with Bobs and Liliana of the veil added)  I was pretty unimpressed by the deck though as you were Xouman so I didn't really even attempt to play it in any more events.  I think now a year later it could be possible to revisit that splash to turn this into a legitimate deck.  Exava and deathrite shaman have both been shown as great cards.  The one gives the deck a late game finisher (something that has been severely lacking) and the other a great mana accelerator (another weak point of the deck). 

White would be the other option.  Stoneforge and Thalia are great cards, although I'm not entirely sure they are strengthening the weak points of the deck.

I just don't think there are enough powerful weapons in red to justify not splashing a second color, which is probably why you were resorting to so many shops cards.

[xouman]

I agree with you in all points (and yes, artifacts are just to cover lots of red weaknesses, at the price of creating new ones).

Confidants and lilianas are a huge boost to the deck, but still was nothing special. I had most success playing heavy artifact hate when batterskull and mud were everywere (winning 5 rounds and ID last one, just to lose 2-1 against bomberman in top 8), but it's difficult to make an impact.

Exava. I'm not sure exava is what this deck needs. the deck needs a creature with a resistance >= 4 (as exava), but it also should hate in other way or be able to face a tarmo. New spoiled cerberus

Underworld Cerberus    3br
Creature — Hound    Mythic Rare
Underworld Cerberus can't be blocked except by three or more creatures.
Cards in graveyards can't be the targets of spells or abilities.
When Underworld Cerberus dies, exile it and each player returns all creature cards from his or her graveyard to his or her hand.
6/6

is another option, but it's 1 more mana and does not have haste. however it's effect can be a boost, specially with DRS, and has a huge body.


DRS is a real card. I'd say it's perfect for the deck, but the problem is that loses a lot of power with moon effect. First of all, because moon effect makes third color a problem, and since fetchlands do not longer go to grave, it loses utility. But sometimes in this deck, a DRS is better than moon itself.

Last saturday I saw a player with a RW build, but didn't watch closely. He played lavamancers and SFM->batterskull, but I think he didn't get a good result. Nowadays White trash seems better attacking the manabase, quite capable against mud and better prepared against big creatures.

Red needs a reliable way of getting CA or something else to gain tempo as Thalia. I pray for something like

moxen hater 1R
artifacts cannot give mana
2/1

or

island vaporizer 1R
sacrifice island vaporizer to destroy target island
1/1

or better

engulf water 1RR
enchantment
islands add colorless mana


and what about

monster retribution 1RR
enchantment
whennever a creature gets into play, it does damage to its controller equal to its casting cost

[vaughnbros]

Exava handles a big problem that I was having.  Jace.  She is very similar to Koth in this role except that against creature decks she is still strong as a 3/3 first strike wall or dominant attacker.  I've tried to run revokers in order to deal with Jace the past, but they were too easily destroy when they were relevant and ignored when they weren't. Cerebus doesn't beat Jace and 5 mana is just too much for not having a comes into play or static effect.

Liiliana and deathrite shaman handle tarmogoyfs pretty well.  Lilly blowing him up and deathrite shrinking him into less relevant range.  Dismembers out of the board can also handle him well.

Dark confidant and liliana provide the deck with card advantage.  I've tried all the mono red options, dangerous wager and faithless worked the best, and they are just not strong enough.  Occasionally looting can prevent a mulligan, but having it in hand already feels like a mulligan since its basically 2 cards for 3.  The deck needs sustainable threats not cycle spells.

Black also helps against combo decks.  Thoughtseize and duress can cripple them especially if you are the play.

Artifact hate strategy is good, but I'm not sure its necessary.  Welder, Monkey, Magus, Strip effects and bolts make the deck very strong against workshops in the first place.  Boarding in some combination of heretic, chewer, and dismembers tilts the match up greatly in the decks favor.

Agreed white and red don't seem to be a good combination in any vintage deck really.  They fill similar roles (removal) and have similar weaknesses (card advantage).

[brianpk80]

A card that surprisingly helps with some of deck's inherent problems is the new Chandra.  Tombs and Simian Spirit Guides help accelerate her into play, she doesn't mind when all lands are Mountains, and she's very difficult to get rid of once resolved.  I would cut the Blood Moons since running 7-8 Moon effects is too many eggs in one basket with too many potential dead draws.  Would suggest Cavern of Souls to get Magus of the Moon into play and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.  Stoneforge Mystic, Chandra, and Sensei's Divining Top can help offset the RW configuration's lack of draw/filter options.  

[xouman]

Jace is really have if he stays online, but it's hard for him. Under magus double UU is hard. Under golem opponent needs 3UU. Wastes also help. Revokers answer. Bolts and Jaya kill him. I agree that cerberus does not answer jace at all, it was intended against bigger aggri (but 5cc is too much, i'll better use wurmcoil or batterskull)

Dangerous waver and looting are cute, but I agree they would be total crap in black or blue. I'm even tempted to run tezzeret's gambit! I would be so happy with any card drawer other than SOFI or simulacrum...

New chandra was on my scope when she was spoiled. The fact nobody is using it makes me think that it is not good enough, but the shoot effect (also making space for your attacking creatures) plus card advantage makes it sweet. The ultimatum is bad in any of my vintage builds. It's better than koth? Are any of both good enough? To tell the truth I haven't even tested them so I'm just speculating.

SDT is attractive with welder, but the lack of shuffling under moon effects makes it an unjustifiable loss of tempo imho. thalia would be a great add, and surely there would be other white cards interesting in this deck

[vaughnbros]

I'm not so sure about Jace being easy to keep off the table.  Dismember and bolt both work through a moon effect giving most decks ways out of magus lock.  A single blue source in most of the Jace decks means that they have access to trinket mage into lotus/sapphire.  Most lists are also capable of turn 2ing a Jace or fetching two basic islands with as their first two lands.  Its not particularly easy to reliably get out moon out turn 1/2 to prevent this without running a full set of moons, cities and ancient tomb.  Your latest lists are sans moon effects all together.

The new chandra doesn't really answer Jace.  Her +1 is inferior to Jace's +2.  Her 0 is inferior to Jace's 0.  On top of that she does nothing to stop Jace's most crippling ability against this deck, bouncing magus.  On top of that the longer games go in any match up the more you're at a disadvantage and Chandra wants games to go a long time.  Exava and Koth are much better options at the top of end of the curve imo.

Since I don't think playing a full 7/8 moon effects is a good choice right now.  The more I think about the more I wonder if blood moon is better choice in this deck than magus in the current meta.  It doesn't attack, which is a pretty big drawback, but there are relatively no answers to it after resolution, except maybe a 2 or 3 cards in someones board; whereas magus is answered by a litany of things.  

[xouman]

My last build had 2 fiery temper + 1 sofi to handle jace, 4 coating + 1 lattice plus 11 direct artifact solutions (welder, viashino, spree, metamorph). Post sb it had 2 revokers and 5 rebs. Jace is a pain, but I tried to be prepared

Yes, my last builds do not include magus. When I play red, people quickly put me into magus, and it's quite normal for people to play 4 or even 6 basics in blue decks without drs or noble. I wanted to try the artifact world with artifact hate and magus simple hadn't a place.


If I have to play magus, I like to do it with 6-7 copies to get it as quick as possible. Faithless looting fetch copies in T1 and discard them when I already had moon in battlefield. But I'll need to complement it.

-Caverns? They become mountains after magus. It's ok for me, but all creatures are of different types, as incredible as it can seem. You have to choose if you want to make uncounterable magus, welder, golem, revoker, gorila, viashino, metamorph...

-Pillage. I'm surprised this card sees 0 play. Nevertheless it's a decent choice to destroy islands or bazaars. It's a pity it can't deal with BSC.

-Avalanche riders. More basiclands hate. Oh, is a human, like magus! FIRST compatibility with caverns. But 3R is expensive and riders could arrive late.

-wastelands and strip. If i'm not playing full moxen, I play 5 wastes. If I play moxen... then I don't know.

-null rod/cotv. Why not both? cotv on T1 is awesome, and played for 1 or 2 after that is also great against most decks.

-vexing susher. if i could play 12 cotv I would, and then i'd play also 8 of these. still, with 4 cotv susher always gets close the edge, on one side or another.

-bolts. easy and quick removal.


At this point, we have a core. how to complement it is another history. One can take some cards to fit another color. Confidants and lilianas are a huge boost. thalias and sfm seem viable but no so solid. green adds muscle and answers to enchantments. blue... well, some people made tops time ago with Jacemoon decks, but blue demands lots of cards to make fows viable. and we can rely on mono-red coupled with artifacts, at the price to have more weakness but a very stable manabase.

if playing blue/white, moons and welders, I'll suggest Sanctum Plowbeast. Not the cheapest way to get a island/plain, but with welder it's a nice wall against most non-flying aggro, and it can be flashed to kill golems by surprise .

[Guli]

Would you advise Faithless looting to me in a Human Oath deck with more than 2 copies of Stony and 4 Thalia? And how does the card actually work out? Spending mana on it means you can't cast a threat. So is it a 1 off or a 2 off that you want to draw after turn 3? Can you clarify? I know I asked this question in the past about Faithless looting, or at least a similar question. But care to give an explaination more relevant to today metagame and whether you think it is playable now?

[xouman]

I probably won't advise it in high numbers. First I will tell why I play them, and then I'll explain why I think looting is poor in your build.

1-Discard useless cards for new ones. The most obvious. TMWA is full of strong cards with terrible overlapping. 1 moon is enough. Maybe you want 2 to handle removal. More is crap. Same applies to null rod, gorilla shaman... You don't want to keep too many lands, viashino heretic was useless against some decks. While every deck greets looting effect, TMWA is happier than most because of bad overlapping.

2-Strong turn 2. Before I abandoned Magus, it was the core of the deck, no surprise. I played 6-7 moon effects because I wanted them to appear as quick as possible. There is a whole world between playing it in T1 and T2, but it is also important in T2 compared with T3. Negating access to second island, or to secondary color, it's important. Faithless looting (FL) digs for a) magus or b) acceleration, in order to play it in T2 after seeing 2 more cards (a 25% more!). Other times it powers T2 Golem, often better than T2 magus. Of course it makes a VERY weak T1. Welder or null rod make usually better T1, so often is a hard call.

3-Recovering effect. This could be perfectly point 2. Welder is great recovering golems, metamorphs or revokers. Also hoses MUD, and specially BSC, it's a card itself. But with looting, welder gets way better. First turn welder, second turn looting means that any moxen, crypt, solring, null rod, cotv... can be swapped for golem or better with a bit of luck. Also crucible gets value when discarding lands. Finally, I have toyed with fiery temper, but I'm not convinced with just 4 discard effects.

4-Fetch solutions. While looking 2 cards is not like demonic tutor, sometimes you need something, and looting helps. Sometimes you have cage and your opponent has oath, and you want to hurry for a second cage or a moon to keep orchard off. Other times you need an answer to jace. Faithless digs 4 cards for 2RR, important in a deck without manipulation.


In humans oath, first point is false. You don't play useless cards, or very few of them. Second point is also false I think, you want to play something useful right in T1. For point 3, I don't think oath justifies card disadvantage at short term. Point 4 is ok for any deck. And there is another point, quite important, and it's the color effect. Does your deck have easy access to red mana?


It is a tempo loss but not very important, costing just R. Lots of times it would fetch a mana source, so you are not wasting mana.

More important, it's card disadvantage (with loam or oath also not important), unless you have unplayable cards in hand. that is creepy when opponent is playing ancestrals, jaces or snapcasters, because you are getting behind quickly.

Besides, if you have played all your card in your hand, it's a stupid draw 2-discard 2, keep in mind that it's just better as worse are the cards in your hand. "Good decks" should not play it because don't play useless cards. But to be honest, in the middle game extra lands are not needed, or cards like you pointed out (thalia, stony silence) and it's a nice CA. Finally, don't forget that maybe its your only CC1 counterable spell, so it would attract missteps (but still has flashback)

It's good after turn 3? If you have drawn badly, but your permanents have sticked, it is. If you have a thalia in play and 2 in hand, you really welcome new cards. If you draw 3 lands in a row, you welcome it. It gives you fodder for oath at just R (or 2R, but this does not involve wasting a card!) but your deck has to be safe until mid-game.

quick decks shouldn't play it, slow decks could play 1, maximum 2. To play more you would need a great use of grave and not have access to blue manipulation (thirst of knowledge is way better in my book).

I can give more concrete answers if you want, or examples of play. I start writing and usually don't follow a clear path, sorry

[vaughnbros]

I've picked up testing this deck again since this is one of the few decks I would be able to play non proxy.  Some things of note:

Moon effects are extremely well positioned right now, at least in my area.  Gush is finally making its return to the forefront.  There are also decks running 0 basics, like BUG fish, humans and burning long.  These are great match ups to add to the already great match up of workshops.

Cavern of souls is a great addition.  There's nothing like playing an uncounterable Magus of the Moon.  There are decks out there with no reasonable answer to it once its resolved so being able to easily force him through counter magic is huge.  Unlike something like Shusher I can still turn 2 my uncounterable magus, thalia, or other threat.

The white splash does seem to be powerful enough.  
   1.  Thalia is amazing.  I'm sure this is something everyone in that has played it realizes.  She shuts off opposing force of wills when they tap down, she effectively turns gorilla shaman into a better than null rod against moxen, she makes bombs like tinker and Jace come much later, and the list can go on.
   2.  Stoneforge mystic provides late game inevitability.  Whether shes fetching swords, jitte, batterskull, or whatever else she makes big threatening creatures that give you a greater advantage the longer they go unanswered.
   3.  Ajani Vengeant.  I've brought him up long ago in this forum.  His +1 taps down a colored mana source under a moon or a large threatening creature at any time.  His -2 kills planeswalkers and ability creatures immediately.  Great card, but his mana cost can be slightly prohibitive.

The black splash doesn't seem to be strong enough.
   1.  Dark Confidant just isn't that great in this deck.  By playing him early you forgo your ability to disrupt and card draw later in the game can never keep up with the opposing blue players.
   2.  Exava still isn't that late game bomb that the deck needs.  She is too easily chump blocked and can be difficult to cast under a moon.
   3.  Liliana is strong, but her mana cost does too much damage to the mana base.

The artifact count needs to remain low.  A big advantage that this deck has always had over workshops is that it is not vulnerable to artifact hate.  When you add in that its also not vunerable to a large amount of counter magic, people are going to be left with a large number of dead cards in their game 1's against you, and still a number of game 2 and 3's.  When you don't keep the count low, it feels much more like a mono red workshops deck and your opponent is capable of using their plethora of shops hate against you.

I still can't find a great top end finisher.  I've exhausted all the 4 drops I can think of, Koth, Exava, Hellrider, Hero of Oxid Ridge, mondronen shaman.  While Koth is probably the best at killing Jace and aggroing, he is still weak against workshops and creature decks.  Going up to 5 mana I fear the card may be too unreliable, but the dragons at that slot may be the only solution.

All in all I'm fairly impressed with how powerful the deck is right now.  It has certainly has exceeded my expectations and I will continue to test it.

[Guli]

I advise you too try Stormbreath Dragon instead of Exava (for late game bombs).

I have been trying Imperial Recruiter and a single Stingscourger. Maybe try that too.

[xouman]

I'm glad you have keeping test. My last ideas are around gamble and welder, but involve a whole new deck and I'm not in the mood to get this by myself :p

I also toyed mentally with white. Thalia was the main reason, followed by stp. And my third white card would be Leonin Arbiter: it's a quick drop, and annuls opponent's fetchlands. If they open with fetchlands, better they have 2 moxen. If they open with non-basics, strip them or wait for magus. Also leonin makes tinker harder to cast, as well as tutors (included sfm!).

sfm brings batterskull but also sofi, and maybe other swords. Or just skullclamp. And if you play skullclamp, why not play Genju of the Spires? It's a 6/1 (nice beater I've heard) reusable outside spheres. Nice against oath, can kill lots of creatures in the way. Dies to any creature, but if you are playing unpowered I can assume you maindeck lots of lands.

So my list of beaters (if you need one):

1 mana
Figure of destiny (easy to pump to 4/4, out of bolts. Hard to pump to 8/8, but possible)
Genju of the spires (recoverable, attacks under oath without triggering it. dies easy, requires inventment every turn)
Dragonmaster Outcast (only good at advanced game, can degenerate with enough time)

2 mana
stormforge mystic (sfm -> batterskull is a finisher)
kargan dragonlord (takes a little to go to 4/4 flying. then a bit more to become a real finisher. can be leveled just with red mana and as a sorcery)

3 mana
I can't think of any right now

4 mana
koth (first ability is nice beating, and nice ultimatum, but middle one is weak)
lord of shatterskull pass (easy to have a 6/6, and can wipe a whole army with time. unhappily
dies to bolt)


some other ideas?

[vaughnbros]

I advise you too try Stormbreath Dragon instead of Exava (for late game bombs).

I don't think I'd ever hit 7 mana for his ability so is the pro white better than the +1/+1?  So it will be interesting to find out whether that card or Thundermaw Hellkite is better.

I have been trying Imperial Recruiter and a single Stingscourger. Maybe try that too.

My old builds of this deck used to run recruiter.  In the end I found him too slow.  You lose a lot of tempo by investing 3 mana into a tutor.  Especially if the card you find is countered.  It doesn't really matter anyhow since hes still a $200+ card so not realistically obtainable.

sfm brings batterskull but also sofi, and maybe other swords. Or just skullclamp. And if you play skullclamp, why not play Genju of the Spires? It's a 6/1 (nice beater I've heard) reusable outside spheres. Nice against oath, can kill lots of creatures in the way. Dies to any creature, but if you are playing unpowered I can assume you maindeck lots of lands.

Yeh I'm currently running SFM into sofi, skullclamp, or batterskull.  SOFI is definitely the go to against any blue deck.  Batterskull the go to against workshops/creature decks.  I'm not entirely sure if clamp is needed yet or not, but I don't think its a bad option to have as a tutor target.

I also toyed mentally with white. Thalia was the main reason, followed by stp. And my third white card would be Leonin Arbiter: it's a quick drop, and annuls opponent's fetchlands. If they open with fetchlands, better they have 2 moxen. If they open with non-basics, strip them or wait for magus. Also leonin makes tinker harder to cast, as well as tutors (included sfm!).

As I am playing my own stoneforges and arid mesas are pretty important to my mana base I think I'm going to stick away from arbiter.  Mindcensor might be a good board option though against decks with lots of tutors.

1 mana
Figure of destiny (easy to pump to 4/4, out of bolts. Hard to pump to 8/8, but possible)
Genju of the spires (recoverable, attacks under oath without triggering it. dies easy, requires inventment every turn)
Dragonmaster Outcast (only good at advanced game, can degenerate with enough time)

2 mana
stormforge mystic (sfm -> batterskull is a finisher)
kargan dragonlord (takes a little to go to 4/4 flying. then a bit more to become a real finisher. can be leveled just with red mana and as a sorcery)

3 mana
I can't think of any right now

4 mana
koth (first ability is nice beating, and nice ultimatum, but middle one is weak)
lord of shatterskull pass (easy to have a 6/6, and can wipe a whole army with time. unhappily
dies to bolt)

Lots of these have heavy mana investments after the turn that they've been played, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I feel the deck is still lacking that one great card that can just finish things.  Red is finally starting to see some of the power creeped creatures, about 5 years after every other color did, but better late than ever.  Hopefully something comes soon.

[xouman]

I don't think I'd ever hit 7 mana for his ability so is the pro white better than the +1/+1?  So it will be interesting to find out whether that card or Thundermaw Hellkite is better.
[/q]
I'm pretty sure that Guli refers to pro-white. In a meta filled with stp, protection can make a real diference. in my last tournament, 2 of my 6 rivals played stp, so it's an important factor.

[q]

My old builds of this deck used to run recruiter.  In the end I found him too slow.  You lose a lot of tempo by investing 3 mana into a tutor.  Especially if the card you find is countered.  It doesn't really matter anyhow since hes still a $200+ card so not realistically obtainable.
[/q]
I agree. Recruiter is very expensive for a budget deck, and on paper it's slow, kind of a time walk for the oponent. You don't want to play it among your first 3 or 4 spells.

[q]
As I am playing my own stoneforges and arid mesas are pretty important to my mana base I think I'm going to stick away from arbiter.  Mindcensor might be a good board option though against decks with lots of tutors.
[/q]
Well, it's only an idea. Of course fetchlands are really important in a dual color deck, but magus does the same and you feel happy with it (I suppose). The idea is you already have white mana for leonin, and the idea is to play arbiter after fetching. Once you have at least 2 mana (leonin is play, right?), you can pay for it if needed. I'm not saying it's an autoinclude, but I'd try it. While mindcensor is better, arbiter's lower cost can be really important. I don't know if CC2 playing unpowered is too late.
[q]
Lots of these have heavy mana investments after the turn that they've been played, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I feel the deck is still lacking that one great card that can just finish things.  Red is finally starting to see some of the power creeped creatures, about 5 years after every other color did, but better late than ever.  Hopefully something comes soon.

I'm glad to play cards with heavy investments post casting in a deck with little card draw. I saw ruric thar yesterday, a bit too costly and featuring green, but that's a nice finisher. A planeswalker would be nice, but tibalt is awful (still, I'm looking for a deck for it), koth is so-so (a cheap deck and its second ability is useless. a costly deck and it's too slow) and new chandra is nice but does not look like a finisher. Isn't batterskull your finisher?

[brianpk80]

When I tested new Chandra in a TMWA like shell, I came to the conclusion that she was the best card in the deck and upped the count to 4 because I wanted to see her all the time, the same way a power hungry blue mage wants Jace on the board.  I also played a pair of Lodestone Golems and followed Thalia up with Golem somewhat regularly.  That was the original idea; to make the deck that successfully combines Thalia and Golem.  What I found though was that the card I wanted in play more often was Chandra.   

[xouman]

Chandra seems great in a meta filled with snapcasters and confidants. And jaces, too, since she taps blockers and pings jace itself.

but what about combo decks? ichorid? mud? she seems meh in any of them. Oh, wait, let me put in context. Combo decks should be addressed with mana denial, cotv, thalia... Ichorid is slowed with wastes and moons. Mud... if TMWA is well constructed, mud should be a good pairing unless goes broken. So yes, chandra can address worse pairings, recovering card advantage, clearing path for the attacks of the small critters.

while I don't see chandra as a true finisher, and I would side her in lots of pairings, she deserves maindeck testing.

[vaughnbros]

I've tried Chandra and I was rather unimpressed.  It goes back to how bob isn't good in this deck either.  Both players drawing card is not board parity because my opponents deck almost always has more gas in it.  The ping is nice, but at 4 mana I feel I need a little more than reusable ping spell.  She doesn't answer Jace without considerable help from the rest of your deck and I think this is her biggest downfall.

The main reason I feel the deck needs a powerful finisher is that taking too long to end the game is an issue of the deck.  While stoneforge is great at beating decks you have time against she is not a fast enough clock to make combo or dredge players worry even after disrupting their mana base or bazaar.  Golem is far too weak to all the artifact hate and creature removal in the format for a 4 mana investment. 

For now I'm still in a toss up on either Koth or a dragon (Thundermaw/Stormbreath).  As the immediate haste damage is critical in killing Jaces and providing a powerful clock.

I don't really see Chandra as a board card.  I'd rather have REB against blue since it can answer Jace, Tinker, Acall, Trinket mage, and a number of other powerful blue spells for 1 mana.

[xouman]

     

These are the "big" red creatures that can transform if no spells were played in a turn. Now, there are two "transformable" creatures in vintage: delver (with a different way to transform) and Mayor (much cheaper and reakky useful itself).

Those cards cost 3-4 mana (quite a lot in most decks) and do *nothing* by themselves until they transform.

-Afflicted Deserter - Werewolf Ransacker: Probably weakest of all. However it's capable to eat moxen while dealing 3 damage, and has a decent body. However it only activates when transforming, quite poor. I won't play it, since it's only really good against tezz or mud and tezz is quite fast, while mud won't probably let him ETB.

-Hanweir Watchkeep - Bane of Hanweir: This has been played in legacy (very little, of course), and it's probably due to its lower cost. A 1/5 with defender is poor, since it's just winning time against small-medium creatures,it can't deal with tarmos or golems. After it's a decent 5/5 that still is not good enough. I won't play it.

- Instigator Gang - Wildblood Pack: This is another history. It's the only that has some utility before being transformed (still it's an awful 2/3 for 3R...), but once transformed it's a really hard WC. Not only it's a 8/5 with trample, but gorilla shaman is a 4/1, magus a 5/2... Small critters are beasts under this effect

.Kruin Outlaw - Terror of Kruin Pass: a bit cheaper, has first strike to survive over small creatures, and once transformed it's a quick beater. Double strike can kill creatures on first strike, and don't forget it must be double-blocked or deal damage.

-Mondronen Shaman - Tovolar's Magehunter : maybe the most relevant effect for vintage. once it's transformed, it's difficult to return to its original form. Annuls an instant storm victory or magical recovery other than tinker. Y.Will is less fearsome if tovolar is in play.


Are any of them playable in TMWA? This deck is intended to annul a lot of play from opponent. We are using gorilla/null rod to take moxen, magus to block access to color mana, chalice to counter a bunch of spells, wastelands to reduce mana... If we are playing correctly, opponent plays a very small amount of spells. So are those creatures a way to go, like some kind of finishers?

In this way, I would try tangle whire, sphere of amethyst, golem, winter orb, pyrostatic pillar, spellshock... Is it worth trying, or is this version strictly inferior to any other TMWA route?

A "typical" opener would be
T1-gorilla/null rod
T2-magus
T3-hate piece
T4-hate piece
T5-*transformer*

it would be the last piece to play, since our main objective is to avoid the opponent to play freely, and when his/her manabase is ruined, plant this *bomb*. I say bomb because once transformed, it should be GG in 1/2 turns.

Too slow? Too hard to transform? Too vulnerable to hate (all die to bolt, sword, dismember...)?. Note that all of them are humans, so they can also remotely be played in some human cavern decks.

[The Atog Lord]

If I were going to be running a mono-red deck in a Vintage tournament, I would look heavily at a mono-red Painter variant. Painter gives you a quick way to end games in a reasonable time frame. You get Blood Moon, which can lock out a number of decks in the format, including the Gush decks. And Imperial Recruiter is a card that can help assemble the combo, and also find various toolbox solutions to whatever you're facing. Factor in that Red naturally has access to strong Workshop hate, and you have the tools required for a strong potential deck.

I've tried a few games with the following deck on Cockatrice, and it's actually performed reasonably well. I believe that an approach like this is the right direction for a deck like Red Deck Wins.

Code:

4 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Shattering Spree
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Manic Vandal
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher

[vaughnbros]

After testing it through my gauntlet pre and post board here's what I have for a list so far:

Mana Denial:
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Gorilla Shaman

Anti Blightsteel/Workshops:
4 Goblin Welder

Removal:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ajani Vengeant

Finishers:
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana Base:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Metagame slots

I feel favored with this lists in any game where my opponent doesn't have an explosive start; the sideboard focuses on dredge and combo for this reason.  The deck has a high amount of resilience since its capable of overcoming most threats and answers in the format.  With the exception of welder everything in the main deck also has immediate impact.  This provides the deck with all the card advantage that it lacks from draw spells.

Ideally you drop some combination of thalia, magus, gorilla shaman, strip effects to stunt your opponents mana.  Then you use an equipment or dragon to finish the game quickly before they are able to recover.

[msg67183]

After testing it through my gauntlet pre and post board here's what I have for a list so far:

Mana Denial:
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Gorilla Shaman

Anti Blightsteel/Workshops:
4 Goblin Welder

Removal:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ajani Vengeant

Finishers:
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana Base:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Metagame slots

I feel favored with this lists in any game where my opponent doesn't have an explosive start; the sideboard focuses on dredge and combo for this reason.  The deck has a high amount of resilience since its capable of overcoming most threats and answers in the format.  With the exception of welder everything in the main deck also has immediate impact.  This provides the deck with all the card advantage that it lacks from draw spells.

Ideally you drop some combination of thalia, magus, gorilla shaman, strip effects to stunt your opponents mana.  Then you use an equipment or dragon to finish the game quickly before they are able to recover.

I really like this list Lance. It seems to answer just about everything except what you mentioned. Have you figured out any cards that work well against Combo?

[xouman]

Storm combo is easily answered with Pyrostatic pillar and spellshock (and Mondronen Shaman - Tovolar's Magehunter). With a spellshock in play tendrils cannot kill you.

Thalia+thorn(+glowrider) are a different but very solid way to counter storm.


The main problem I faced was long-term advantage (confidants, jaces, snapcasters, angels...) and of course Oath/show&tell. Solid finishers deal with long term advantage (confidant loss of life hurts, jace is killed, as angels), but oath is really hard to win.

Btw, the list looks great!

[msg67183]

Can't Ethersworn Canonist also work?

I kinda like the pillar or spellshock idea.

[Greolin]

I've been running mindsparker in my build. He is a dollar bin rare from m14. He has been pretty amazing. Rr1 for a 3/2 first strike. Opponent takes 2 if they cast a white or blue instant or sorcery. Aside from that the only other things I have to add are chaos warp is an excellent answer to things red can't normally answer (oath).....and while not as flashy as you'd like koth has proven to be the best "finisher" in testing. There is enough available in red not to need a splash. All the splashes I have seen either weaken the deck or change it enough where its not really the same archetype

Blood moon is as important if nit more important than Magus. More decks currently run dismember and lightning bolt than run cards that can remove enchantments

I used to run pillar and spellshocks. They are great against storm decks but any deck running creatures is going to have a chance to make them irrelevant or turn them against you. Although it is really a blast.to watch people who have never played against them try to manage their life total

[LennoxLewis86]

Pyrostatic Pillar seems like a waste of sideboard slot if you use it to stop storm combo. But you can make a case for it if you have 1 or 2 storm decks in your meta and a bunch of Snapcaster Mage decks.

Storm combo is pretty much dead. Lodestone Golem, Mental Misstep and Flusterstorm have killed the Dark Ritual pillar. Oath of Druids, Gush, Steel City Vault and Dredge is what's left of the combo decks. Pillar doesn't do enough against those decks so you should play other cards in your sideboard.

Grafdigger's Cage stops Oath, Dredge, Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will. Now that's a card that actually hits those archetypes hard, and for only one colorless mana. There are more cards that fit the bill, but Pillar isn't really one of them.

ps. I'm just a Ritual player trying to catch a break. Lol, jk.

[msg67183]

Pyrostatic Pillar seems like a waste of sideboard slot if you use it to stop storm combo. But you can make a case for it if you have 1 or 2 storm decks in your meta and a bunch of Snapcaster Mage decks.

Storm combo is pretty much dead. Lodestone Golem, Mental Misstep and Flusterstorm have killed the Dark Ritual pillar. Oath of Druids, Gush, Steel City Vault and Dredge is what's left of the combo decks. Pillar doesn't do enough against those decks so you should play other cards in your sideboard.

Grafdigger's Cage stops Oath, Dredge, Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will. Now that's a card that actually hits those archetypes hard, and for only one colorless mana. There are more cards that fit the bill, but Pillar isn't really one of them.

ps. I'm just a Ritual player trying to catch a break. Lol, jk.

Combo is certainly NOT dead.
I have seen Burning Long, Doomsday and other forms of Pitch Long played to success recently.

[vaughnbros]

I've been running mindsparker in my build. He is a dollar bin rare from m14. He has been pretty amazing. Rr1 for a 3/2 first strike. Opponent takes 2 if they cast a white or blue instant or sorcery. Aside from that the only other things I have to add are chaos warp is an excellent answer to things red can't normally answer (oath).....and while not as flashy as you'd like koth has proven to be the best "finisher" in testing. There is enough available in red not to need a splash. All the splashes I have seen either weaken the deck or change it enough where its not really the same archetype

Mindsparker seems playable.  I just don't think hes really fast enough to be relevant against non gush storm decks.  While chaos warp can get rid of oath it doesn't do anything to dredge, or a storm plan, I'm skeptical about playing a 3 mana 1 for 1.  I don't think its really about whether there are enough decents cards in red, its about whether or not there are enough amazing cards in red.  This is vintage and you need to compete with the best cards in all of magic.  I think any mono colored deck is going to struggle to compete (including even mono blue).

Blood moon is as important if nit more important than Magus. More decks currently run dismember and lightning bolt than run cards that can remove enchantments

Is it though?  While blood moon is important, multiples of it are always bad.  Magus can be dismembered and lightning bolted, but with cavern of souls he can't be countered and more than 1 of him is still increasing your clock speed.

Storm combo is easily answered with Pyrostatic pillar and spellshock (and Mondronen Shaman - Tovolar's Magehunter). With a spellshock in play tendrils cannot kill you.

Yes those cards are great for stopping storm (when you are on the play), but do nothing against Griselbrand.  I guess the issue I'm running into is there isn't a catch all card to combat burning oath decks.  This may be the type of deck that just needs to take the gamble and not have an effective sideboard plan against some decks in order to ensure good match ups against others.

[xouman]

Hi to all,

tomorrow I'm playing another LCV tournament (~50 people). This is what I'm planning to play:

18 creatures
3 magus of the moon
3 goblin welder
1 viashino heretic
2 mindsparker
2 kuldotha phoenix
1 jaya ballard, task mage
4 lodestone golem
2 phyrexian metamorph

3 enchantments
3 blood moon

7 instants & sorceries
3 faithless looting
2 mental misstep
2 fiery temper

5 artifacts
4 chalice of the void
1 sword of fire and ice

27 mana sources
5 moxen
1 sol ring
1 crypt
4 ancient tomb
4 great furnace
1 strip mine/tolarian academy
4 cavern of souls
6 mountain


Cannot answer heavy openings like mox, orchard or tinker > BSC. High CC, but I don't want to play CC2 (i'm planning to play COTV2 often) and minimize CC1.Grafdigger's cage may find a place in the starting 60 (but then phoenix and welder lose value)

Opinions?

[vaughnbros]

Cannot answer heavy openings like mox, orchard or tinker > BSC. High CC, but I don't want to play CC2 (i'm planning to play COTV2 often) and minimize CC1.Grafdigger's cage may find a place in the starting 60 (but then phoenix and welder lose value)

Opinions?

I've found there is just as much value to be gained from cage welder as there is to be lost.  Against any deck playing artifact creatures (namely strix decks and workshops) since when there is an artifact creature in your opponents yard you can use cage to turn welder into tap destroy target artifact. 

You bring up a big reason why I haven't play chalice of the void in this in a while.  Restricting yourself to higher cc spells is a bad choice in my opinion.  You lose too much tempo against the fast and even make yourself more vunerable against a mana lock by doing this.  All so that you can play chalice, which there is no guarantee you will draw it, resolve it, or even keep it on the table.  Most decks are well prepared to deal with it unlike the past and have ingot chewers, as well as a diversified CC in their deck.

[RenatoAmado]

Xouman,

I thought that you need to elevate the number of sol lands to 6 at least (4 ancient tomb + 2 City of Traitors as you expect to drop consistently Blood Moon or CotV) - 4 Blood Moons is a must in this kind of deck, I think, as Magus will be easy answered.

As vaughnbros I am not sold if CotV is better than Null Rod in your built and if Kuldotha Phoenix is the right finisher. In the first case (Null Rod instead of CotV) you will have permanently a gain in the form of good CC1-CC2 answers like REB/Pyroblasts / Bolt / Shattering Spree and of course the opportunity to play Cage.

What do you think about Burning Wish? You can build a good suite of red sorceries targets in sideboard (Shatering Spree, Meltdown, p.e.), including the ones that have alternative costs (Pulverize, Cave-In, Flameshot).

Good Luck in LCV