[mbs] Ichor Wellspring

[MaximumCDawg]

Pics here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=296401

Ichor Wellspring
Artifact (C)
When Ichor Wellspring enters the battlefield or is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, draw a card.
"Our glorious infection has taken hold."
- Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

This is interesting.  Is the fact that it is Goblin Welder's best friend worth the fact that it does nothing by itself?  Could we see a deck with a draw engine like:
4 Welder
2 Skullclamp
2 Ichor Wellspring

[Delha]

Pics here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=296401

Ichor Wellspring
Artifact (C)
When Ichor Wellspring enters the battlefield or is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, draw a card.
"Our glorious infection has taken hold."
- Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

This is interesting.  Is the fact that it is Goblin Welder's best friend worth the fact that it does nothing by itself?  Could we see a deck with a draw engine like:
4 Welder
2 Skullclamp
2 Ichor Wellspring

What's the point of the Skullclamps?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Perhaps some sort of storm build with Krark-Clan Ironworks, a bunch of eggs, Ichor Wellspring, Helm of Awakening, Divining Tops, Workshops, etc?

It's weird to think about Workshop storm.

[madlucas]

Finally some food for Perilous Research 

[AmbivalentDuck]

So...mono-blue shop combo?

[MaximumCDawg]

Pics here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=296401

Ichor Wellspring
Artifact (C)
When Ichor Wellspring enters the battlefield or is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, draw a card.
"Our glorious infection has taken hold."
- Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

This is interesting.  Is the fact that it is Goblin Welder's best friend worth the fact that it does nothing by itself?  Could we see a deck with a draw engine like:
4 Welder
2 Skullclamp
2 Ichor Wellspring

What's the point of the Skullclamps?

Cheap way to convert Welder into CA if you don't have Wellspring, and to enable Wellspring bouncing if you do.

[Delha]

What's the point of the Skullclamps?

Cheap way to convert Welder into CA if you don't have Wellspring, and to enable Wellspring bouncing if you do.

I don't think that's a very good deck approach. Building a deck around Welders and Wellspring makes perfect sense to me, but I really don't think clamp brings much to the table in such a deck. It makes more sense to add things that use welder rather than something that gets rid of welder. Wellspring + Clamp is anti-synergistic. One wants welder on the table, the other wants him to hit the grave.

Also, I still don't see how Clamps enable Wellspring bouncing. It's not like they die on use, and putting dead goblins in the yard still doesn't give you something to weld in.

[Blue Lotus]

this could be sweet if thirst was unrestricted. as is, welder doesn't have a deck and this is useless.

[Delha]

I was thinking it might be the draw engine that prison Stax builds always wanted by never had. I don't know it well enough to call, but with Trygon being pushed out and Lodestones not really affecting lock parts... shrug.

[RecklessEmbermage]

What a great card! Flexible, weldable hatching plans! As for getting artifacts to weld, look no further than bazaar and riddlesmith (we're already playing blue for perilous research, right?)

[serracollector]

So hatching plans, perilous research, and ichor wellspring could work really well.....

something like this....
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14199.html

just with power and welder's for vintage?  Maybe riddlesmith too, and 1-2 empty/brainfreeze?

[yawg07]

Don't forget Frantic Search just got unrestricted, maybe it can find a home soon 

[Greolin]

Why has nobody mentioned Transmute artifact with this.....especially since most of this thread assumes the deck is already going to include blue

[Delha]

Why has nobody mentioned Transmute artifact with this.....especially since most of this thread assumes the deck is already going to include blue

Shrug. If you're just looking to load your grave...

• Intuition is more versatile and an instant.
• Entomb is cheaper.
• Neither requires the sacrifice of an artifact.
• Neither requires  (deck is likely blue/red)

[Mr. Type 4]

I played in a smaller tournament a couple weeks ago and someone made Top 4 with this deck, which could utilize Ichor Wellspring:


Semi-Finalist - Will Trinks
Welder

2 Goblin Welder
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tinker
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Mindslaver
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Frantic Search
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Nature's Claim
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mindbreak Trap


I played against his friend and my tyrant oath deck was really good vs this, but it got Will Trinks to Top 4 so it cant be too bad.   

[AmbivalentDuck]

Why has nobody mentioned Transmute artifact with this.....especially since most of this thread assumes the deck is already going to include blue

Shrug. If you're just looking to load your grave...

• Intuition is more versatile and an instant.
• Entomb is cheaper.
• Neither requires the sacrifice of an artifact.
• Neither requires  (deck is likely blue/red)

I'm not sure that's a fair response.  I see no reason why we wouldn't have to seriously entertain this card in a Steel City Vault variant.

[Delha]

I don't see the problem with my response. I didn't call Transmute unplayable, I just pointed out why one would quite possibly run other cards instead.

It's all about the intended role of the card in your deck. I think it's unrealistic to pay  and sac a mox to get Wellspring, which is why I figured Transmute will more often than not be used to tutor into the yard. From there, the question becomes whether there are other cards which better accomplish that goal. I believe Intuition unquestionably does. Assuming the deck includes Will/DT/Vamp (exclusion of which might, in fairness, be justified), Entomb becomes better than Transmute in almost every way.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Transmute fills an entirely different role, though, since it Tinkers Vault-Key components into play.  In other words, it both triggers Wellspring and helps you to "just win."  Also, for you'd simply draw two cards turning one Wellspring into another.  While I realize that this is conditional and the comparison may not be fair, I'm pretty sure that a Sorcery that read "Draw two cards" would see Vintage play.

So, the problem I see with your post is that the implicit goal of Transmute isn't necessarily to fill the graveyard.  Instead, it's to plop an artifact from your library into play.

[Delha]

I agree about the Key/Vault part, which seems like a natural fit in a deck like this, and is certainly a significant benefit. As for Wellspring into Wellspring, I'd also agree that it's marginal, and an unfair comparison. I'd argue that it's offset by the inferiority of the spell when you Transmute out a mox and can't afford to pay the difference.

I think we're envisioning different decks. I was thinking of something slower and using Welder for incremental advantage, whereas you appear to be going for something more aggressive. With MUD so prevalent these days, I'm guessing Welders are going to be a better call than a mana hungry spell that also eats your moxen. I'm totally open to being wrong on this, btw. Lack of play means that any knowledge I have of the meta is secondhand at best.

[AmbivalentDuck]

My thought is Steel City Vault complete with Welders and Ancient Grudges main.

[Purple Hat]

I guess my thought on this is that I'd almost never transmute to get this, but it is a good card to transmute off.  Unfortunately, I don't see it being better in that role than something like Su-Chi which allows you to get crazy expensive stuff rather than just draw a card.  Then again, as has been mentioned, a cantripping tinker for time vault or voltaic key seems good so maybe you could build something around that.

The other thing I could see using it for is filling the 2 drop hole in control slaver where people used to play night's whispers, but I wouldn't play transmute in that deck at all.  I'd be thinking about playing this out on turn 1 if I didn't have welder or drain mana with the assumption that I'd weld it out later. 

[meadbert]

Sensei's Divining Top just seems way better than this guy.

Top already combos with Perilous Research, Read the Runes and Welder.

The main advantage I see is with 2 Wellsprings a single Welder activation draws 2 cards where as Top would only draw 1, but but even then Top's ability to peek is pretty huge.
I would much rather open up with turn 1 Top, Peek than with Wellspring.

Another advantage is you cannot draw with Top and Sack it to smokestack so in a Stax shell this might be better.

Maybe a deck could run Welder, Wellsprings, Tops, Hatching Plans, Read the Runes, Perilous Research and Smokestacks.
Then you have to get a win condition and some disruption that is faster than Welder and Smokestack.  I just do not see it.
Even in the above terrible deck idea I think Wellspring might be the worst card.

Is there a compelling reason to run this over Top or will any potentially viable deck also want top?

[mike_bergeron]

Sensei's Divining Top just seems way better than this guy.

Top already combos with Perilous Research, Read the Runes and Welder.

The main advantage I see is with 2 Wellsprings a single Welder activation draws 2 cards where as Top would only draw 1, but but even then Top's ability to peek is pretty huge.
I would much rather open up with turn 1 Top, Peek than with Wellspring.

Another advantage is you cannot draw with Top and Sack it to smokestack so in a Stax shell this might be better.

Maybe a deck could run Welder, Wellsprings, Tops, Hatching Plans, Read the Runes, Perilous Research and Smokestacks.
Then you have to get a win condition and some disruption that is faster than Welder and Smokestack.  I just do not see it.
Even in the above terrible deck idea I think Wellspring might be the worst card.

Is there a compelling reason to run this over Top or will any potentially viable deck also want top?

Meadbert you forgot crack the earth to finish that uber combo

[TopSecret]

Sensei's Divining Top just seems way better than this guy.

Top already combos with Perilous Research, Read the Runes and Welder.

The main advantage I see is with 2 Wellsprings a single Welder activation draws 2 cards where as Top would only draw 1, but but even then Top's ability to peek is pretty huge.
I would much rather open up with turn 1 Top, Peek than with Wellspring.

Another advantage is you cannot draw with Top and Sack it to smokestack so in a Stax shell this might be better.

Maybe a deck could run Welder, Wellsprings, Tops, Hatching Plans, Read the Runes, Perilous Research and Smokestacks.
Then you have to get a win condition and some disruption that is faster than Welder and Smokestack.  I just do not see it.
Even in the above terrible deck idea I think Wellspring might be the worst card.

Is there a compelling reason to run this over Top or will any potentially viable deck also want top?

Meadbert you forgot crack the earth to finish that uber combo

Entirely viable in my opinion. I mean, what does this card not combo with? Put out a Greater Gargadon. Start drawing cards while destroying Oath. Drop Serenity, make Stax cry. Cast a Hurkyl's Recall or Repeal to recast Wellsprings. Yawgmoth's Will them back into play. These are all cards that see Vintage play, people. I'm gonna write a 60 page E-Book about all the combos with Ichor Wellspring.

[Cyberpunker]

Sensei's Divining Top just seems way better than this guy.

Top already combos with Perilous Research, Read the Runes and Welder.

The main advantage I see is with 2 Wellsprings a single Welder activation draws 2 cards where as Top would only draw 1, but but even then Top's ability to peek is pretty huge.
I would much rather open up with turn 1 Top, Peek than with Wellspring.

Another advantage is you cannot draw with Top and Sack it to smokestack so in a Stax shell this might be better.

Maybe a deck could run Welder, Wellsprings, Tops, Hatching Plans, Read the Runes, Perilous Research and Smokestacks.
Then you have to get a win condition and some disruption that is faster than Welder and Smokestack.  I just do not see it.
Even in the above terrible deck idea I think Wellspring might be the worst card.

Is there a compelling reason to run this over Top or will any potentially viable deck also want top?

Meadbert you forgot crack the earth to finish that uber combo

Entirely viable in my opinion. I mean, what does this card not combo with? Put out a Greater Gargadon. Start drawing cards while destroying Oath. Drop Serenity, make Stax cry. Cast a Hurkyl's Recall or Repeal to recast Wellsprings. Yawgmoth's Will them back into play. These are all cards that see Vintage play, people. I'm gonna write a 60 page E-Book about all the combos with Ichor Wellspring.

But you only get to draw +1 card when you sac it. It's a great cantrip for Workshop but is it good enough?

[TopSecret]

Sensei's Divining Top just seems way better than this guy.

Top already combos with Perilous Research, Read the Runes and Welder.

The main advantage I see is with 2 Wellsprings a single Welder activation draws 2 cards where as Top would only draw 1, but but even then Top's ability to peek is pretty huge.
I would much rather open up with turn 1 Top, Peek than with Wellspring.

Another advantage is you cannot draw with Top and Sack it to smokestack so in a Stax shell this might be better.

Maybe a deck could run Welder, Wellsprings, Tops, Hatching Plans, Read the Runes, Perilous Research and Smokestacks.
Then you have to get a win condition and some disruption that is faster than Welder and Smokestack.  I just do not see it.
Even in the above terrible deck idea I think Wellspring might be the worst card.

Is there a compelling reason to run this over Top or will any potentially viable deck also want top?

Meadbert you forgot crack the earth to finish that uber combo

Entirely viable in my opinion. I mean, what does this card not combo with? Put out a Greater Gargadon. Start drawing cards while destroying Oath. Drop Serenity, make Stax cry. Cast a Hurkyl's Recall or Repeal to recast Wellsprings. Yawgmoth's Will them back into play. These are all cards that see Vintage play, people. I'm gonna write a 60 page E-Book about all the combos with Ichor Wellspring.

But you only get to draw +1 card when you sac it. It's a great cantrip for Workshop but is it good enough?

The problem with playing Ichor Wellspring in Workshop decks is that it's difficult to consistently get the right mana to cast Crack the Earth. It's true that Ichor Wellspring only nets +1 card advantage when sacrificed, but I think what pushes it over the top is that when you cast Crack the Earth with Ichor Wellspring in play the total card advantage gained from the interaction is +1 card. Stuff like Perilous Research is interesting, but I don't think it's anywhere near as good as Crack the Earth, since it's one more mana than Crack the Earth + Ichor Wellspring for the extra +1 card advantage, but Crack the Earth takes out an opponent's card that's already in play. That's some tempo.

[Bill Copes]

I think the Ray Robillard, Smokestack line of thinking could similarly be applied to this card.  It's 2 mana to cast. When it comes into play, you draw a card.  After that, it does absolutely nothing to effect the game state, either the turn you play it or on any consecutive turn thereafter.  Sure, you can combo it with a billion other cards, but can you really think of X slots in an existing deck archetype or pillar that you'd want to shoe-horn a Wellspring combo into?  The welder deck list posted earlier in the thread seems like a close "natural fit," but I can't see one card in that deck that I'd pull out for something that is potentially a completely useless cantrip.   Something like Greater Gargadon aggro or EverybodySacsPermanents.dec may seem cute, but what are they going to defeat on a consistent basis?  There's just no power level here.

[TopSecret]

Something like Greater Gargadon aggro or EverybodySacsPermanents.dec may seem cute, but what are they going to defeat on a consistent basis?

Sir my rebuttal can be found WITHIN MY LATEST ARTICLE

http://topsecrettechnology.blogspot.com/2011/02/e-book-about-ichor-wellspring.html

Please keep your lulzy blog entries about books about Magic in Community or Vintage Issues-DA[/color]

[brokenbacon]

Sir my rebuttal can be found WITHIN MY LATEST ARTICLE

http://topsecrettechnology.blogspot.com/2011/02/e-book-about-ichor-wellspring.html

That was easily one of the funniest things I have read in a long time.
"You tutor for Hornet Sting when they're at one."
Fucking hilarious.

[Beralt]

Top-secret -enjoyed the blog, even tested the deck a few times. Had a bit of trouble with Null Rod, so would consider a repeal. Crack the Earth makes me crack a smile.