Screw Sphere of Resistance! Workshop Aggro at its Finest

[msg67183]

Chris don't worry u will get your ass handed to u by wurmcoils at the end of march in bloomsburg! See ya there bud.

[yespuhyren]

Has Phyrexian Warbeast crossed anyones mind?

Its a 3 drop.  Its got 4 toughness so gets around 99% of fish/critters used in t1, and lightning bolt/fire/ice. 

Its drawback of saccing a land is rather crappy, but I think the card needs tested before dropped.  If you know they are on ancient grudges/ignot chewers you can always side them out g2.

Just a card I used to use back in the day with Juggernauts, so the idea came to me.

Way too much negative synergy for it to be played.  There’s a better replacement for whatever you are trying to do.

[yespuhyren]

I decided to cut the revokers in the main for 4 Precursor Golems since he gives decks a problem very fast clock is better than a soft lock. Once I took the Precursors out of the SB I needed to fit 4 cards in that come in against fish style decks and also the mirror. I decided on 3 hellkites and 1 Trike so remove creatures and threats as well as act as dredge "hate". Overall I think the deck is a sucess and it will continue to play well.

I love how I’ve converted you from playing Panther Stax to this  And trust me, I know you may not like the MD precursors as much as the 2/1, but like I said that night the damage pays off in the long run.  2/1 is an annoyance, this deck is straight up shop tempo with a clock

[msg67183]

Precursor has been amazing in testing. Hands down better than revoker.

[msg67183]

after reviewing my SB, I have made the following SB:
4x Relic of Progenitus
4x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Duplicant
2x Crucible of Worlds
1x Mishra's Factory

I made the chage to Duplicant because it answers fish decks even if they have null rod out, which the other ideas fail to do. I also cut the Needle because I dont need the 9th piece of dredge hate and I wanted another land for the mirror match, and also against landstill.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I don't understand how duplicant is better than hellkite vs fish.  Yes, you can kill a fish and then trade a 2/2 for a 2/2, or you can drop a flying 5/5 and have a permanent wall or superior clock.  You have 4 precursors which should trump all of their 2/2s.  You can even take out a tarmgoyf by chumping with 2 golem tokens.  if you are really afraid of trygon/tarm, you also have 4 metamorphs which can just copy and stalemate them while your superior clock finishes the job.  Duplicant adds nothing that metamorph/precursor can't handle on their own.

[msg67183]

Its also for the mirror. Im also working around rods. My deck is unaffected by rod minus the typical mana.

[TheWhiteDragon]

If you want to trump the mirror, go with wurmcoil - much better than duplicant.  Better yeat, go with platinum angel and watch them deck themself without an answer to platz.

[msg67183]

I already run 4 wurmcoil and 4 precursor main deck.

[msg67183]

The more I think about it, the more I think this sb would be the best:
4x relic
4x cage
4x hellkite
3x crucible
Thoughts?

[vaughnbros]

how exactly does platinum angel, hellkite, or wurmcoil don't necessarily beat everything in Kuldotha builds.  Like BSC or their dupilicants.  Duplicant is definitely the best option for a deck already packing wurmcoils and precursors.  It means there literally isn't a single creature that they can drop that you cant 2 for 1.  Precursors beat Dupilicants.  Duplicants beat Wurmcoils.  Wurmcoils beat Precursors.  I think its also already been established in this forum that all other creatures fall to at least 1 of these 3.

[msg67183]

Here is a list I have been testing and it has been great for me, very consistent and solid. I think this is the most consistent I have had the deck.

Lands (19)
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra’s Factory
2x City of Traitors
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy

Artifact Mana (8)
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt

Creatures (16)
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Precursor Golem
4x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Phyrexian Metamorph

Lock Pieces (17)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Tangle Wire
4x Orb of Dreams
1x Trinisphere

Sideboard:
4x Relic of Progenitus
4x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Duplicant
3x Crucible of Worlds

Only possible change I could think of now is the 4th Orb being a 4th Factory. Orb does nothing in multiples, but I want to have it turn 1 as often as possible. Not sure on that change or not.
 

[msg67183]

I decided to go with the 4th factory over the 4th orb of dreams because the factory is great for landstill and the mirror and I don't need an excessive amount of orbs.

[msg67183]

Here is a list I have been testing. I have found that orb of dreams can be underwhelmimg at times.

"sphereless and fearless"

4 shop
4 tomb
4 waste
4 factory
2 city of traitors
1 strip
1 tolarian

5 moxen
1 black lotus
1 sol ring
1 crypt

4 lodestone
4 metamorph
4 panther
4 wurmcoil
3 precursor

4 thorn
4 wire
4 cotv
1 trini

Sb:

4 cage
4 relic
3 crucible
3 duplicant
1 precursor

I have found in testing that panther just comes out of nowhere and deals insane damage. I was also considering moltensteel dragon or omen machine. Let me know what u think.

[msg67183]

Just played this list over the weekend and went 3-1-1. Then lost first round of top 8. But it is still a very nice and consistent deck.

[msg67183]

Can anyone think of any possible changes for this list? I just want to see more communication on here.

[Prospero]

Can anyone think of any possible changes for this list? I just want to see more communication on here.

Your deck is very heavy at the top end of its curve.  You don't have many strong tempo plays at the bottom end of your curve.  This means that if your mana is put under pressure, or your opponent lands a Sphere effect against you, or your opener didn't have the requisite five to six mana (before your opponent goes to work on you), that you're going to be working from behind for the whole game.  If you hit your mana, you'll be able to drop bombs.  If you don't, or if your mana is punished, you're going to be in a world of hurt.

[msg67183]

Mana hasn't been much of a problem. Maybe I should run mana vault? Wurmcoil is too good to cut from this deck. He is my pet card and I love it. Im not entirely sold on precursors maybe I can cut them altogether.

[Prospero]

Mana hasn't been much of a problem. Maybe I should run mana vault? Wurmcoil is too good to cut from this deck. He is my pet card and I love it. Im not entirely sold on precursors maybe I can cut them altogether.

Slash Panther saw play in the summer because the blue decks were dedicated Jace decks, and because there weren't all that many creature decks running around.  Slash Panther was an excellent answer to Jace.  I hope that we can both agree that while many of the blue decks still run Jace, they're not the same as the decks that were succeeding (like East Coast Wins) in the summer. Blue decks have changed.  They run Jace, but they're something closer to an Aggro/Control hybrid than the Combo/Control hybrid that they were in July.  I hope we can both agree that there are many more creatures out there now than there were back during the summer.

If we can agree on both of those things then I would like to pose a question; why are you running Slash Panthers?  Panther has fewer Jaces out there, along with many, many more creatures that he has to fight.  Panther, with two toughness, is not well disposed to fighting opposing men.  He's best when he's swinging into empty boards.

I think that the issue with the deck, more than mana, is tempo.  It's your deck, so feel free to do what you would like.  By no means should you make changes if you don't feel like making changes.  You're also more than welcome to believe that I'm wrong.  That being said, if I were going to make changes to the deck, I'd probably do something like cut the Slash Panthers for Phyrexian Revokers.  The deck doesn't have a lot of plays where it can box out the opposing deck and force the midgame/endgame.  You don't run Spheres (which is fine in this build), so you don't really put as much pressure on his mana as other Shop builds (Martello/Espresso/Marinara).  You have the standard set of Wires, which is good.  Outside of that, and Chalices, how do you stop something like an early Vault/Key?  How do you put an opponent off an early Tinker?

Shop decks all need some amount of mana denial.  Maybe it's just about getting that denial in the form that's best suited for your deck.  Prison style builds would prefer Spheres.  Aggro has an affinity for Revoker.  Both accomplish the same task; both deny the opponent the mana that they need in order to win.  I think that your task, as a Shop Aggro pilot, is to look to deny him his mana while staying true to the aggressive strategy that you prefer.  I would be concerned about the top end of your curve, if I were you, but I'd really be concerned with what my opening lines of play were.  You're not always going to have that five or six mana, and there will be games when you have to play small.  Maybe you were the victim of mulligans, maybe he put pressure on you through Waste effects, maybe he has landed Spheres against you, pushing your curve out further.  If that's the case, how do you win?

[msg67183]

Would moving the 3 crucibles to the main along with 3 revokers and mana vault for precursors and panthers?

[msg67183]

And what about buried ruin? Seems good.

[Prospero]

Crucible is much more of a control card than an Aggro card; it's suited for long games where you build incremental advantage by continuously attacking your opponents mana base.  When Crucible is landed in an Aggro deck it's meant as a defense against that kind of strategy.  Crucible is a better friend to a card like Smokestack than it is to something like Wurmcoil Engine. 

Buried Ruin is the epitome of the long game strategy.  You want to consistently get value from it, and the only way that you do that is with Crucibles and Smokestacks.  I think the activation on the card is probably one mana too much for it to be really effective, anyways.  It was one of the cards that we played around with in July, it never really worked out like I wanted it to, and I was playing Espresso, which is that card's truest home.

If you're looking for more, cheap, pressure, what about something like Porcelain Legionnaire?  It's cheap, can combine to swing life totals very quickly, and makes a fool of opposing Lodestone Golems.  I played a Shop Aggro deck the last time that I played at TopDeck Games, and I missed top eight when I lost my bubble match to Samite Healer.  Legionnaire was good for me.     

[msg67183]

So are u saying like 4 legionnare 3 revoker? I like legionnare and have wanted to try it.

[Prospero]

So are u saying like 4 legionnare 3 revoker? I like legionnare and have wanted to try it.

Some mix of the two is a good place to start.  4/3, 3/4, try it out and see what works for you.  Having early plays that you can consistently make is going to be a very good thing for you.

[vaughnbros]

Can anyone think of any possible changes for this list? I just want to see more communication on here.

Your deck is very heavy at the top end of its curve.  You don't have many strong tempo plays at the bottom end of your curve.  This means that if your mana is put under pressure, or your opponent lands a Sphere effect against you, or your opener didn't have the requisite five to six mana (before your opponent goes to work on you), that you're going to be working from behind for the whole game.  If you hit your mana, you'll be able to drop bombs.  If you don't, or if your mana is punished, you're going to be in a world of hurt.

I disagree.  He only has 7 spells that cost 5 or more, he has 28 mana sources, and is not running sphere of resistance.  The most recent grudge match victor was running 7 spells that cost 5 or more, 27 mana sources, and 3 sphere of resistance.  I'd consider this deck to be in a much better position as far as mana is concerned.  

So are u saying like 4 legionnare 3 revoker? I like legionnare and have wanted to try it.

I agree that you should be cutting precursors and slash panthers, but I don't necessarily think legionnaire is what you are looking for.  That is a card that you play more to beat fish than anything.  I think a couple of equipment, like of fire and ice and 4 revokers along with a singleton crucible or karn would be optimal.  Revokers are quick pressure as well as being able to deny mana.  Then Karn and the equipment are great for providing board impact immediately when you have enough mana.

[Prospero]

Can anyone think of any possible changes for this list? I just want to see more communication on here.

Your deck is very heavy at the top end of its curve.  You don't have many strong tempo plays at the bottom end of your curve.  This means that if your mana is put under pressure, or your opponent lands a Sphere effect against you, or your opener didn't have the requisite five to six mana (before your opponent goes to work on you), that you're going to be working from behind for the whole game.  If you hit your mana, you'll be able to drop bombs.  If you don't, or if your mana is punished, you're going to be in a world of hurt.

I disagree.  He only has 7 spells that cost 5 or more, he has 28 mana sources, and is not running sphere of resistance.  The most recent grudge match victor was running 7 spells that cost 5 or more, 27 mana sources, and 3 sphere of resistance.  I'd consider this deck to be in a much better position as far as mana is concerned.  

So are u saying like 4 legionnare 3 revoker? I like legionnare and have wanted to try it.

I agree that you should be cutting precursors and slash panthers, but I don't necessarily think legionnaire is what you are looking for.  That is a card that you play more to beat fish than anything.  I think a couple of equipment, like of fire and ice and 4 revokers along with a singleton crucible or karn would be optimal.  Revokers are quick pressure as well as being able to deny mana.  Then Karn and the equipment are great for providing board impact immediately when you have enough mana.

The spells that he wants to cast, in order to win the game, start at four.  Many of his game winning spells are at six.  Splitting a Shop deck into mana sources and spells (divided equally) isn't the best of strategies, in my opinion.  The extra two, three, or four slots that he can open up with a tighter build are all very, very important.  Shop decks already straddle that line.  I think it's better to have an early game plan, and a deck that reflects that decision, than to have a deck that relies on the top end of its curve, almost exclusively, to win the game.  Shop Aggro decks have a clock in every game where, if they haven't hit their 20 points of damage, their odds of winning start dropping precipitously.  When the opposing pilot is able to cast their spells, and effectively interact with you, they start playing spells that have a lot more impact on the game than a hasted 4/2's.

The beautiful thing about this site, Lance, is that you're more than welcome to disagree with me.  I think I'm right, but the only opinion that matters in this one is the one of the person making the final cuts to their deck.  This is the case with most things in life.

[msg67183]

I like the 4 revokers, the only problem I see with singletons is lack of consistency. So im not sure what the other 3 cards should be.

[Prospero]

I like the 4 revokers, the only problem I see with singletons is lack of consistency. So im not sure what the other 3 cards should be.

Raf's singletons are a product of running Forgemasters.  You shouldn't be running singletons unless they're restricted cards.

[msg67183]

Yeah I know forgemaster shops or whatever they call it now. should I run mana vault with 4 wurmcoils main?

[msg67183]

What are your thoughts on omen machine? I think it can be great if resolved.