[Premium Article] DOOMSDAY RETURNS: How to Build Doomsday Piles and Win in T1

[cvarosky80]

I've found that running Lotus Cobra helps mitigate the Lodestone beatdown while helping you accelerate out either the D-Day combo or a Realm. The Realms work well obviously in letting you set yourself up for either D-Day or Tendrils, but the problem lies in an effective follow-through plan if you're unable to "go-off" the turn you set everything up. The most successful option I've found is Doom Blades to go along with the Realms. Dismember deals too much damage when you factor in the Thoughtseize damage to make Doomsday itself a viable play. Doom Blade however, kills anything you need to kill in the Shops matchup as well as all of the Hatebears that this deck has a hard time dealing with. In addition, Blade gets around Missteps that many Shops decks, as well as Hatebear decks pack in either the board or the main for the Blue match-up. And with Cobras capable of giving you the black mana you need with a simple land-drop, it allows you the luxury of allowing a Moon-Man to resolve (Provided that a Cobra is already in play) while letting you save your Forces and STILL being able to Blade out the Moon-Man. It's certainly not perfect, but nothing really may be perfect with a deck like this in a Shops or Hatebear matchup, but so far, this is the closest thing I've found to giving you a solid chance at being able to adequately fight consistently, especially on the draw. For reference, this is the list I have together at this moment if you're wondering what I cut to facilitate what I described above:

Win
2 Doomsday
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Tendrils of Agony

Control
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
1 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hurkyl's Recall

Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Ponder / Timetwister

Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

Utility / Broken
1 Fastbond
3 Lotus Cobra
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard
1 Island
3 Doom Blade
3 Teferi's Realm
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void

While cutting the 3rd and 4th Doomsdays at first seemed like a bad idea, I've really had no problems in terms of getting one when I needed, and in fact, I don't entirely miss the others as often times they would end up cluttering my hand and forcing me to have to let the game go longer than I wanted to, simply because I wouldn't have the control pieces or mana acceleration I needed, especially in the Shops matchup, to properly play everything out and win quickly and reliably. I'm still testing this list out, so I can't say with certainty that the changes I made are correct or not, but it's "felt" better, for lack of a better term, against the bad matchups for this deck without losing the steam that it has in it's good matchups. But, I'm always open to criticism, as these are just my thoughts on this decktype.

[Smmenen]

I've found that running Lotus Cobra helps mitigate the Lodestone beatdown while helping you accelerate out either the D-Day combo or a Realm. The Realms work well obviously in letting you set yourself up for either D-Day or Tendrils, but the problem lies in an effective follow-through plan if you're unable to "go-off" the turn you set everything up.

I don't think you need Realm at all if you are playing Cobra.  You are already deep in Green, why not just go with the Trygon + Ingot plan?

Win
2 Doomsday
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Tendrils of Agony

Control
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
1 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hurkyl's Recall

Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Ponder / Timetwister

Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

Utility / Broken
1 Fastbond
3 Lotus Cobra
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard
1 Island
3 Doom Blade
3 Teferi's Realm
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void

While cutting the 3rd and 4th Doomsdays at first seemed like a bad idea, I've really had no problems in terms of getting one when I needed, and in fact, I don't entirely miss the others as often times they would end up cluttering my hand and forcing me to have to let the game go longer than I wanted to, simply because I wouldn't have the control pieces or mana acceleration I needed, especially in the Shops matchup, to properly play everything out and win quickly and reliably. I'm still testing this list out, so I can't say with certainty that the changes I made are correct or not, but it's "felt" better, for lack of a better term, against the bad matchups for this deck without losing the steam that it has in it's good matchups. But, I'm always open to criticism, as these are just my thoughts on this decktype.

Your decklist looks like it has too much disruption.   you need to maximize your abuse of Cobra, if you are going to use Dday.   Dday isn't bad with Cobra, but you need other plans.  I would probably play at least 3 Dday though.   

[covetousrat]

Burning Long with Oath is on the rise lately. The main reason is due to the inclusion of Oath which only requires 2 mana. As Maniac is one of the sideboard plan against Workshop for Burning Long, I was thinking why not try the Oath shell with Doomsday as well.

Workshop is probably the hardest matchup for Doomsday. The main inclusion of Oath with more lands greatly increases the winning chances against Workshop in G1. Traditionally Doomsday has a good matchup against Blue decks. Thus with this changes, it helps to improve the Workshop matchup and slightly weaken the blue matchups.

Heres a rough deck

Lands
6 Fetches
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Forbidden Orchard

1 Laboratory Maniac

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Jet, Sapphire, Emerald
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Hurkyls Recall
3 Doomsday
4 Gush
4 Preordain
4 FOW
3 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ponder
1 Fastbond
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
4 Oath of druids

16 Lands- Used in the Tyrant Oath Deck. 16 Lands maybe too much but I feel going below 12 Islands reduces the usefulness of Gush.
3 Doomsday- 3 is enough if you are not going balls to the wall combo version and Rituals
3 Mox- Not too sure on this as this slows down the probability of turn 1 Oath. Other than this, they are no better than lands.
0 Krosan Reclamation? Oath your deck and Krosan on Yawmoths Will for the win.

Weakness
The deck loses the virtual card quality advantage compared to the original version.

What do you guys think. Will this plan work?

[hitman]

That's kind of close to what I played in Bloomsburg yesterday.  I was 6th going into the final round and just missed top 8 after losing the final round.  I beat Landstill 2-0, Grixis 2-0, lost to Shops 1-2, beat Shops 2-0 and played really poorly in the final round to lose the win and in.  You can't play 4 Doomsday, 4 Gush and 4 Oath in the same deck.  The problem is you need BBB for Doomsday, at least two Islands for Gush and you need green mana for Oath.  I only played two Oath of Druids main and no Hurkyl's Recall.  Here's my deck for reference:

4 Doomsday
4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fastbond
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Oath of Druids
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet

4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Forbidden Orchard

SB ->

2 Oath of Druids
2 Forbidden Orchard
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Forest
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt

The idea is to side out 3 Doomsdays, 4 Mental Misstep, 2 Flusterstorm and 1 Duress for the 10 card anti-Workshop package.  Even after Ancient Grudging once and Nature's Claiming three times, I still lost to Twaun playing Shops in game three.  The deck smashes everything except Workshops.  I don't think of the deck by any means as an Oath of Druids deck.  It's more like a tactic you have available that's really important in one matchup.  The two mainboard Oaths are my Hurkyl's Recalls.  

I was talking with Mike Noble after the tournament about Doomsday since he had been playing it as well and he was telling me how good Dark Ritual was.  It's really important in the Dredge matchup because it speeds you up an entire turn (really important since you have to skimp on Dredge hate to have a board that has a chance against Shops) and it opens up windows where people tap their mana aggressively when you have one land in play and don't think you can kill them next turn.  I'm probably cutting a Thoughtseize and maybe a Mental Misstep and trying two Dark Rituals to start out.  

I strongly disagree about cutting the fourth Doomsday.  It's the reason to play the deck and it makes your tutors better when half of what you need is already in your hand.  Otherwise, sometimes you need to tutor for Doomsday but don't have the draw/cantrip to win the same turn or the protection in your hand and need more turns to put everything together.  Anyway, that's where I am with the deck right now.  Hope it helps.

[Smmenen]

 The deck smashes everything except Workshops.

I think this is exactly right.  

I was seriously considering this deck from Gencon last summer (2012), and considered two critical variations: 1) Cobras and 2) Oath package as two potential ways to combat Workshops.  As I wrote in my Gencon report, I actually felt that Doomsday Cobra list was stronger without Doomsdays, and Jaces in those spots instead.  That's how I ended up playing that Cobra Gush deck at Gencon with 4 Jace.  

It's not that this deck cant beat Workshops, but it can't combat them reliably, especially against top Workshop pilots.   When I created this deck and broke it out at the Waterbury, it was very unfortunate that I had to play, in the quarter finals, the only Workshop deck in that top 8

My Burning Long deck, on the other hand, is very strong against Workshops.  The anti-Shop package I use in that deck, with both Oaths and Hurkyl's and Ancient Tombs to support them, and the ancillary stuff like Shat Spree/Nature's Claim is so potent against Shops.  

I honestly believe that this deck and UR Delver are probably the two best Gush decks, which make them, obviously, very attractive for me.  But they suffer from the fatal flaw of being weak to Workshops.   I believe that a deck without full Moxen probably can't actually beat Workshops reliably.  

There may be a way to tweak this deck or rework it, but you'd need to dedicate a huge part of your SB to the solution.  

I won a Meandeck Open with this list in March, 2012: http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1577&highlight=1#place1

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Doomsday
1 Duress
1 Imperial Seal
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Mental Misstep
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Fastbond
3 Trygon Predator

Lands (14):
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

SB
   4 Leyline of the Void
1 Massacre
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Trygon Predator
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Yixlid Jailor

I didn't publicize my revised deck or write a tournament report because right up until Gencon I thought I might want to play this deck at Gencon.

In terms of combating Shops, I found that Trygon Predator package maindeck pretty good, but I think there is probably a way to work Oath into the sideboard with full Moxen.  The list above does just that.   In terms of Oath though, I just couldn't get it to work reliably.

Again, the comparison to my Burning Tendrils/Long deck is unavoidable.  That deck gets to use Ancient Tombs in the SB.  I am increasingly of the view that not only do you need full moxen to combat Workshops reliably, but you also need some number of Ancient Tombs.  Gush decks can't run those.

It really pains me to say it, as much as I love Gush, but Workshops are just too oppresive for them to be serious candidates for winning big/major tournaments.  

On the point about Dark Ritual, I feel the same way about Dark Ritual as I do about Empty the Warrens in my Long deck: it's training wheels.  It's probably important for many players to have them, but it's not ever strictly necessary.  It just makes it easier to pilot an fairly difficult and complex deck to more simple solutions.   I understand the point about helping against Dredge, but I'm not sure how truly important that is.

And, throwing gas on the fire, it's my view that lists without Imperial Seal are probably suboptimal.  Imperial Seal is super important for drawing Lotus or Fastbond with Gush.  

[hitman]

Oh Steve. You're such a pessimist. I'll find a way to make it work. Regarding Ritual, I never want it all day but when Mike pointed out the strength against Dredge it made a lot to me because I was concerned about the low number of cards I had for them postboard. I didn't run into Dredge during the tournament so I was going to give it a try for the Feb. TSO because there's always a large number of Dredge there.

Regarding Moxen, it's funny you said what you said because that's exactly what I was saying throughout the tournament. I was wondering if Mana Crypt was necessary just because it gives you a fifth zero CMC artifact when they lead with Sphere (all the time). Oath was strong against Shops but when I lost to Shops, I was a turn behind. I was never out of the game, just a hair behind. If I can shore up that turn a little more, I know I'm in business. That's originally what Oath was supposed to do for me. Doomsday is a turn slower than Oath but I'm still a hair slow. Maybe the Rituals just need to be Emerald and Mana Crypt.

In any case, I'm a casual player in the sense that I won't play anything I don't have fun playing and I can't put this deck down. It reminds me of the puzzles Gifts used to present and that was my favorite time in Vintage. I played against Landstill round one and had to Doomsday through Force, Drain, Drain, Mindbreak Trap. I got there through sequencing. I commented out loud when I played Grixis that it was refreshing playing Vintage again because this deck feels more Vintage than any other deck I've played in the last few years. I missed top 8 because I played like an idiot the final round. Apparently I can't add and waited one extra turn before going off but had two few life because of Deathrite Shaman. If I could count, I simply would have gone off the turn before. Again, the deck could play through Daze, Daze, Force, Force. Game two, since I didn't see Wasteland game one, I didn't put the four color Fish deck on Wastelands because I imagined his mana would be the worst if he tried to play Wasteland. I sided out my Island and he not only had Wasteland but led with it first turn.  I'm holding Oath when he Meddling Mages Doomsday while I'm holding Oath but never draw the second land.

Regarding Seal, I don't have a lot of respect for the card. I view it much like you view Ritual I imagine. I can appreciate that it gets Lotus against Shops but I hate top deck tutors against blue decks. It's not even that good against Shops. You have to expose your mana by fetching Sea and if you're on be draw, you can't play it early anyway. I think it's strongest against Dredge. I don't even like Mystical Tutor very much but it's a concession to the fact that I need a certain threshold amount of tutoring in a combo deck. I almost never tutor for Fastbond.

I think the deck is amazing and I'll shore up the half turn it's missing in the Shop matchup. Even though I lost to Twaun, it was actually very close in the last game. If he ha one less Factory or I ever drew as little as one more land or a single Force of Will, I win.

[Smmenen]

Yeah, this deck is alot of fun.  I enjoy making Doomsday piles in both Legacy and Vintage.  They are very much like Gifts piles, except even more interesting, I think.  When I broke this deck out, we did a podcast where we talked about a bunch of Dday piles - beyond the dozen or so that were in the primer I published at the beginning of this thread.  Kevin and I came up with some really cool solutions to difficult scenarios.  I used to write Gifts articles just like that. 

One thing I forgot to mention about Imperial Seal is that turn one Imperial Seal for Lotus allows you to win with Doomsday and Gush in hand with double counter protection, like two Flustrestorms

So you can go:

T1: Sea, Seal

T2: Land, Lotus, Dday, Gush (with Flustertorm * 2 protection), Win.

If you have two Gush in hand, you can get Fastbond and have the same effect. 

[psyburat]

Thank you for the shout-out, hitman, I appreciate the kind words.  As I noticed the thread lit up again, I was happy to see that covetousrat had come to the same idea as you, and especially happy that you were able to give a personal reaction to the subject matter.

As for the Ritual Doomsday list, I really liked my build that I had for this past weekend, and will probably play no more than a few sideboard changes if I were to play it again next week.  My list, for reference:

“Ribcage Tanlines"

3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Fastbond
2 Flusterstorm
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Imperial Seal
3 Mental Misstep
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
4 Doomsday
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Rebuild
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendril’s of Agony
4 Force of Will
4 Gush

SB:
2 Island
3 Autumn’s Veil
1 Mental Misstep
3 Nature’s Claim
1 Doom Blade
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Infest
1 Perish
1 Darkblast

This, as well as the "Bela Lugosi's Home Secuirty System" name from Westmont's December event, are song titles by a grindcore band from around here called Doomsday Machine Schematic.  They put on a good show.

When discussing the deck with InfectedMushroom, he and I have builds that, while only a few cards apart in the maindeck, I started designating by different names.  The build that I run I designate as Turn 2 Doomsday, while his, packed with Trygon Predators and a few pieces of hand disruption, I designated as Turn 3 Doomsday.  I'd also call hitman's build a Turn 3 Doomsday deck.  The key is that all of these decks aim for that to be the critical turn, even if each build still has turn one kills nested in them.  They aren't by any means meant to be derogatory terms to mock sub-optimal builds.

The largest difference between Turn 3 vs. Turn 2 is how strong you want to be against Workshops.  With the use of disruptive spells such as Thoughtseize and Trygon Predator, hitman and InfectedMushroom (sorry for the constant use of online aliases, guys, but it'll help direct people if they have specific questions and don't know you) aim to break up the Workshop lockdown prior to comboing off.  With the Turn 2 build, I aim to use speed as a form of disruption, causing people who either underestimate my hand or underestimate the archetype to make plays to advance their board state, limiting their disruption and allowing me a window to win.  Perhaps the best example of this was a match I had against Ryan Glackin at a prior tournament, where I presented Misty Rainforest, he tapped out for Dark Confidant, and I proceeded to win the following turn with him holding an Abrupt Decay that would have presented a huge problem if I had been a turn slower (let alone the Confidant's own ability to generate better card advantage).

Another point hitman made was its strength against Dredge.  I played against it three times in the swiss, and although I grabbed two game wins due to mulliganing to oblivion, being faster than their ability to hit more than two Cabal Therapies, assuming you can answer the first, is critical in assuring victory.  My sideboarding against them only consisted of cutting the artifact bounce for Mental Misstep and two random kill spells, and gives me flexibility to add more Workshop hate than I'd have access to otherwise.  In the future, I'd say taking out two Hurkyl's for Mental Misstep and an Autumn's Veil is better, since it lets you plan around Chalice of the Void and their Mental Misstep/Chain of Vapor a bit better.

I'm with Smmenen with Imperial Seal.  The card is impossible to cut, and I can't think of a matchup where you'd want to even sideboard it out.

I'm generally a man of few words, so I'll wrap it up a bit abruptly by saying this:  I can understand why Smmenen says that Dark Ritual is a crutch, but I have built this deck (and Josh Butker, my teammate, built its predecessors) under the Chang school of Magic, the idea that a good offense is the best defense.  In another thread out there, Stormanimagus (sic) said that one of the most vital resources in Vintage these days is time.  Justin Kohler, who I played in the swiss, specifically said that he had to play Bomberman against me in a method that is very foreign to him due to my build's demands on his early resources, rather than giving him time to build with Jace or sculpt with Top.  Going off with two lands, a Dark Ritual, a Doomsday and a Gush is amazing and potentially backbreaking to many archetypes, sometimes even Workshops if they miss a strong opener.  It was a nailbitter when I lost to Twaun in the quarters, and I hope that I can continue to iterate and solve the Workshop problem, especially now that we've found out how little exists in Gatecrash that will change the Vintage landscape.

I look forward to talking with all the combo guys, and although Smmenen has moved on to Draw 7s instead of Fastbond, I still have faith that this is where we'll find the format's Gush deck.

[covetousrat]

I have to agree with Hitman/ Menendian. Oath does not solve the Workshop problem as much as I hope to. Without full moxen you are always a turn behind and Maniac does not stop Lodestone from killing you. Oath, Gush, Doomsday just do not fit in the same deck unless someone finds the right combination.

Does Necropotence worth a spot in the 4 Ritual version? I personally don't think so. Anything that does not improve the Workshop matchup should not be considered. Maybe a sideboard card to race against Dredge (lol) and blue?

@psyburat why Gitaxian Probe?  

Maybe the Trygon version is the best option available.

[hitman]

Don't get me wrong.  I'm sticking with the Oath plan.  It's very robust.  I think I need to find room for Emerald and Mana Crypt, maybe cutting the 4th Misstep and Thoughtseize.  It has some other corner applications outside of the Shop match as well.

[InfectedMushroom]

@covetousrat The Gitaxian Probe allows you to shrink the Doomsday stack by one while also ensuring that the path is clear. It's position in the stack allows you to effectively combo out and draw your library.

[Smmenen]

As for the Ritual Doomsday list, I really liked my build that I had for this past weekend, and will probably play no more than a few sideboard changes if I were to play it again next week.  

Congratulations on your performance.  It's always exciting to see people putting up good results not just with Gush, but especially Dday.  I loved seeing Josh Butker run the Vintage prelims at Vintage Champs with this beast!  

When discussing the deck with InfectedMushroom, he and I have builds that, while only a few cards apart in the maindeck, I started designating by different names.  The build that I run I designate as Turn 2 Doomsday, while his, packed with Trygon Predators and a few pieces of hand disruption, I designated as Turn 3 Doomsday.  I'd also call hitman's build a Turn 3 Doomsday deck.  The key is that all of these decks aim for that to be the critical turn, even if each build still has turn one kills nested in them.  They aren't by any means meant to be derogatory terms to mock sub-optimal builds.

That's probably a useful heuristic for describing the deck, although I would say that I aim for turn 2 wins some times, and like turn 7 wins the rest of the time.  I shift between extreme modes: from being extremely controlling to being extremely aggressive.   I will combo out on turn one or turn two alot.   Even with zero Dark Ritual, I often will try to win on turn two, with Lotus Petal, Black Lotus, Mox Jet, or having tutored for one of those, or jsut Fastbond + Gushes.  

I'm generally a man of few words, so I'll wrap it up a bit abruptly by saying this:  I can understand why Smmenen says that Dark Ritual is a crutch, but I have built this deck (and Josh Butker, my teammate, built its predecessors) under the Chang school of Magic, the idea that a good offense is the best defense.  In another thread out there, Stormanimagus (sic) said that one of the most vital resources in Vintage these days is time.  Justin Kohler, who I played in the swiss, specifically said that he had to play Bomberman against me in a method that is very foreign to him due to my build's demands on his early resources, rather than giving him time to build with Jace or sculpt with Top.  Going off with two lands, a Dark Ritual, a Doomsday and a Gush is amazing and potentially backbreaking to many archetypes, sometimes even Workshops if they miss a strong opener.  It was a nailbitter when I lost to Twaun in the quarters, and I hope that I can continue to iterate and solve the Workshop problem, especially now that we've found out how little exists in Gatecrash that will change the Vintage landscape.

One counterpoint that continues my thought above: I very, very much appreciate the *option* of being in the control role.  When I was designing the first list for the Waterbury in late 2011, one of hte first things I did was cut Dark Rituals -- not because they bad -- but because they interfered with my ability to seize *both* roles dominantly.  I was able to pack in so much more disruption by not running Rituals.  And, it also forces this deck to maximize Gush more.  Gush is far more than just source of card advantage. In fact, the mana advantage and virtual card advantage are just as important.  In most of my matches at the Waterbury, I was able to take complete control or near control against slow control pilots.   The Gush engine generates unique card  and mana (additional land drops) advantage, such that the longer the game goes, the more virtual card advantage you generate.   Gush decks truly benefit from long games.  You have less mana than the opponents, and that translates into virutal card advantage.  Dark Rituals may certainly help in the aggressive role, but they make it much harder to play a true control role.  I like a deck that has more flexibility in that I can play both roles.    I agree with Zvi in his Who''s the Beatdown 2, that a deck that can play both roles will win every game.

That doesn't make Dark Ritual wrong, I just think that it makes it much harder to play both roles, and that's where I'm most comfortable.  Perhaps calling it a "crutch"is too strong, but if it's not that, I think it interferes with an important deck mode too much.    There may be a case for 2 or so Dark Rituals, like Butker was using.  I would even be willing to start with 1.  But I probably wouldn't have 4.  

[AmbivalentDuck]

That's probably a useful heuristic for describing the deck, although I would say that I aim for turn 2 wins some times, and like turn 7 wins the rest of the time.  I shift between extreme modes: from being extremely controlling to being extremely aggressive.   I will combo out on turn one or turn two alot.   Even with zero Dark Ritual, I often will try to win on turn two, with Lotus Petal, Black Lotus, Mox Jet, or having tutored for one of those, or jsut Fastbond + Gushes.

Rituals enable easier wins through Stony Silence. I know that disruptive white decks are under-represented in the tourney meta, but this seems like a reasonable tutor target that doesn't meaningfully degrade the general performance of the deck.

Given your love of turn 7 wins, can you comment on the decision to run Preordain over Bob?

[hitman]

Confidant, Thoughtseize, fetches, Force and Doomsday itself is a lot of damage.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Confidant, Thoughtseize, fetches, Force and Doomsday itself is a lot of damage.

Only the last point matters.

Also, Confidant can block opposing 2/1s fruitfully. Does he prevent as much damage as he causes? Probably not.

[Smmenen]

That's probably a useful heuristic for describing the deck, although I would say that I aim for turn 2 wins some times, and like turn 7 wins the rest of the time.  I shift between extreme modes: from being extremely controlling to being extremely aggressive.   I will combo out on turn one or turn two alot.   Even with zero Dark Ritual, I often will try to win on turn two, with Lotus Petal, Black Lotus, Mox Jet, or having tutored for one of those, or jsut Fastbond + Gushes.

Rituals enable easier wins through Stony Silence. I know that disruptive white decks are under-represented in the tourney meta, but this seems like a reasonable tutor target that doesn't meaningfully degrade the general performance of the deck.

Given your love of turn 7 wins, can you comment on the decision to run Preordain over Bob?

It wasn't a literal comment, but a symbolic one.  And, yes, Preordain is better with/ essential component of the Gushbond engine.  See my Gush book.  

I combat Stony Silence with 3 md Trygon. See my list above

[AmbivalentDuck]

I combat Stony Silence with 3 md Trygon. See my list above

That's a turn 3.5 answer to a turn 1.5 threat.

[Smmenen]

I combat Stony Silence with 3 md Trygon. See my list above

That's a turn 3.5 answer to a turn 1.5 threat.

Trygon Predator is a possible turn one or turn two play, even without artifacts.  that's the beauty of Gushbond. 

Yeah, I have to say that this deck can play around Stony Silence pretty well.  You can Gushbond/Yawg Will/Tendrils even with Stony Silence in play.  You don't even need to Doomsday. 

[psyburat]

Congratulations on your performance.  It's always exciting to see people putting up good results not just with Gush, but especially Dday.  I loved seeing Josh Butker run the Vintage prelims at Vintage Champs with this beast! 

That's probably a useful heuristic for describing the deck, although I would say that I aim for turn 2 wins some times, and like turn 7 wins the rest of the time.  I shift between extreme modes: from being extremely controlling to being extremely aggressive.   I will combo out on turn one or turn two alot.   Even with zero Dark Ritual, I often will try to win on turn two, with Lotus Petal, Black Lotus, Mox Jet, or having tutored for one of those, or jsut Fastbond + Gushes. 

One counterpoint that continues my thought above: I very, very much appreciate the *option* of being in the control role.  When I was designing the first list for the Waterbury in late 2011, one of hte first things I did was cut Dark Rituals -- not because they bad -- but because they interfered with my ability to seize *both* roles dominantly.  I was able to pack in so much more disruption by not running Rituals.  And, it also forces this deck to maximize Gush more.  Gush is far more than just source of card advantage. In fact, the mana advantage and virtual card advantage are just as important.  In most of my matches at the Waterbury, I was able to take complete control or near control against slow control pilots.   The Gush engine generates unique card  and mana (additional land drops) advantage, such that the longer the game goes, the more virtual card advantage you generate.   Gush decks truly benefit from long games.  You have less mana than the opponents, and that translates into virutal card advantage.  Dark Rituals may certainly help in the aggressive role, but they make it much harder to play a true control role.  I like a deck that has more flexibility in that I can play both roles.    I agree with Zvi in his Who''s the Beatdown 2, that a deck that can play both roles will win every game.

That doesn't make Dark Ritual wrong, I just think that it makes it much harder to play both roles, and that's where I'm most comfortable.  Perhaps calling it a "crutch"is too strong, but if it's not that, I think it interferes with an important deck mode too much.    There may be a case for 2 or so Dark Rituals, like Butker was using.  I would even be willing to start with 1.  But I probably wouldn't have 4. 

Thank you for all your useful feedback!

It is definitely a heuristic, and by no means the cut and dry method of playing out the deck.  I designed the heuristic based on what turn the deck could win without drawing a single restricted spell pre-Doomsday, but that is never the turn you want to try to win during every game.  Each deck definitely has the ability to win much earlier or later, they aren't that much different.

One of the issues that I had was with a version of the deck I referred to as "Statistically Average Doomsday".  I took all the lists that had Top 8'd up to that point and averaged them together, creating a point of amalgumation that I could pick and choose from that point forward.  It included hilarious inclusions like 1 Lotus Cobra, which was almost instantly cut, to 1 Dark Ritual, which I loved every time I drew it and eventually ramped up to 4 copies.  The issue I started having, though, was the decks in the metagame had the ability to set up their control much better than I was able to set up mine, and the games where I aimed for turn 7 often left my opponent with the upper hand due to Dark Confidant, Sensei's Divining Top, etc.  Although I love and agree with Who's The Beatdown and all of those foundation-style articles, I felt outclassed enough during long games that I opted to gear my build towards disruption through time.  There is still the control game, but I certainly opt for it much less often, and it is definitely less reliable.  In a nutshell, I stray from your philosophy because I feel my metagame doesn't let the deck sufficiently combat Workshops while still maintaining the inevitability of game control against other matchups.

I went 2-2 with the deck on Sunday, losing to Fenton on Oath and Koresko on The Plateaus Win Again.  My changes for the event were swapping a maindeck Hurkyl's for the 4th Mental Misstep, and cutting the Perish for Mana Vault.  Mana Vault was a choice for the Workshop matchups, allowing me to navigate through a Tangle Wire and fueling a Hurkyl's Recall through two Sphere effects.  I never drew it against my Workshop opponent, so the jury is out on that one.  TPWA is a fluke matchup that I doubt I'll prepare for in the future, and Oath was definitely savage play error on my part.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Although I love and agree with Who's The Beatdown and all of those foundation-style articles, I felt outclassed enough during long games that I opted to gear my build towards disruption through time.  There is still the control game, but I certainly opt for it much less often, and it is definitely less reliable.  In a nutshell, I stray from your philosophy because I feel my metagame doesn't let the deck sufficiently combat Workshops while still maintaining the inevitability of game control against other matchups.

I've been arguing since the days of unrestricted Brainstorm that there's a third role outside control and beatdown: make a hole and step through it. People will inevitably pounce and say that that's really a time-varying mix of control and beatdown. My disagreement isn't with how it plays out, but how you build the deck: soft control with a sudden and decisive turning point.

Both of the decks I've done this with played an unrestricted 1.5 card "I win" combo: Doomsday + a deck full of draw, Earwig Squad + a deck full of gobs.

[xouman]

I've been arguing since the days of unrestricted Brainstorm that there's a third role outside control and beatdown: make a hole and step through it. People will inevitably pounce and say that that's really a time-varying mix of control and beatdown. My disagreement isn't with how it plays out, but how you build the deck: soft control with a sudden and decisive turning point.

Both of the decks I've done this with played an unrestricted 1.5 card "I win" combo: Doomsday + a deck full of draw, Earwig Squad + a deck full of gobs.

I'm very intrigued with that idea?. Could you please develop it in a new thread? It's somewhat related with my view of mtg decks, but never had put it up with words and plain concepts. Thank you!

[AmbivalentDuck]

I've been arguing since the days of unrestricted Brainstorm that there's a third role outside control and beatdown: make a hole and step through it. People will inevitably pounce and say that that's really a time-varying mix of control and beatdown. My disagreement isn't with how it plays out, but how you build the deck: soft control with a sudden and decisive turning point.

Both of the decks I've done this with played an unrestricted 1.5 card "I win" combo: Doomsday + a deck full of draw, Earwig Squad + a deck full of gobs.

I'm very intrigued with that idea?. Could you please develop it in a new thread? It's somewhat related with my view of mtg decks, but never had put it up with words and plain concepts. Thank you!

I discuss it at length in both the Gobs and UBr Doomsday threads. I'm defending my prelim today so I probably won't get to this for quite a while unless you remind me.

[Smmenen]

That idea is not actually distinct from Who's the Beatdown.   Adam Maysonet's 1995 "Concede or Bleed" Jester's Cap deck is based on the exact same principle, and was one of the schools of magic.

[AmbivalentDuck]

That idea is not actually distinct from Who's the Beatdown.   Adam Maysonet's 1995 "Concede or Bleed" Jester's Cap deck is based on the exact same principle, and was one of the schools of magic.

Nothing is distinct from that framework. My point is more that Duress a Flusterstorm is both beatdown and control. Sometimes life isn't the resource keeping your opponent alive, it's instead their own permission suite.

Brandon Adams took this idea to level 99 by including 4x Gitaxian Probe in his build. If you know which doors are open at any given point in time, you can make and find more surgical holes.

[Smmenen]

Mike, what do you think of the lists that Soly and Sam ran with just 2 Rituals?  Soly said he might just run 1 even, cutting the 2nd Rit for Imperial Seal.

EDIT:

After a twitter discussion today, I was rereading my primer, and for those who didn't buy it, here's the relevant part:

Building an Optimal Doomsday Deck

Once Laboratory Maniac was spoiled I knew I wanted to try to make use of it with Doomsday, and my
initial brewing list looked like this.

Meandeck Doomsday, 2011 v. 1.0

Business (41+X)
4 Doomsday
4 Gush
4 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Pierce
1 Fastbond
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Imperial Seal
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Timetwister
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Necropotence
1 Laboratory Maniac
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
X Gitaxian Probe

Mana Sources (23)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
14 Land

Yes, that’s more than 60 cards (64 + X, to be exact). Just as my first draft of the Lotus Cobra deck was 64
cards.

There are two engines envisioned here: the Doomsday engine and the GushBond engine. Both consume
deck space, but not so much that there isn’t plenty of room for disruption spells. The GushBond engine is
the standard 4 Gush, 4 Preordain, 1 Fastbond, and Doomsday just requires 4 Doomsdays and 1
Laboratory Maniac. That left plenty of room for Mental Misstep and company.

My first test list had whittled the deck down to 61 cards, and within two games of testing I cut two Spell
Pierces to make room for a Probe and cut to 60 cards. I was impressed that I win the first two games of
testing against my playtest partner, but more than that, I was shocked that I won both games on turn
three, after playing turn three Doomsday, followed by Gush in both instances. I cut the 4th Dark Ritual
and added a Spell Pierce back in. I also decided that I wanted Lotus Petal instead of Mana Crypt,
because it could help me play turn two Doomsday. So with these changes made the deck tested
extremely well, but it needed more fine tuning. I learned so much about building piles and this deck’s
inherent resilience, but I needed much finer tuned testing.

I played game after game until I finally realized that Dark Ritual was dead weight. Dark Ritual would have
most of its potential as part of a Plan B: Yawgmoth’s Will into Tendrils of Agony. But that turned out to be
unnecessary. The GushBond engine had little trouble generating enough mana or storm – with
Yawgmoth’s Will – to end the game with Tendrils. Dark Ritual got in the way as much as it helped, so I cut
it altogether.

Meandeck Doomsday v. 3.0
Business (43)
4 Doomsday
4 Gush
4 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Fastbond
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Laboratory Maniac
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Gitaxian Probe
Mana Sources (17)
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
7 Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island

With Dark Rituals cut for Thoughtseize, Necropotence also had to go. I ran the 3/1 split of
Thoughtseize/Duress because I knew I might want Duress post-Doomsday, when life was limited. I also
cut the 14th land for a Gitaxian Probe.

One of the things about this deck is that it’s Plan B – Tendrils – works very well. The GushBond (Gush +
Fastbond) engine is the juice of the deck. It generates card advantage for the deck while fueling the final
Doomsday kill. But it’s also an alternative kill in itself. You can use Fastbond to win with Tendrils, with or
without Yawgmoth’s Will in between.

The deck can also build toward a lethal Tendrils. The Gush engine, with all of the assorted control cards,
allows for a very controlling mid-game – one that can build towards a giant game-winning Yawgmoth’s
Will. For example, you can tutor up an early Ancestral, and then Gush in sequence, and all the meanwhile
keep control with Spell Pierce, Mental Misstep, Thoughtseize, and Force of Will.

*Note that in my Waterbury report, I explained that the deck didn't actually need Probe in any Dday pile, and so I cut it later as well.

A single Dark Ritual is probably fine as an accelerant, but I think it's truly training wheels...

[Wave]

Seeing that your Gush Pyromancer deck has several similarities with Mike Solymossys Doomsday deck which is already playing four colors, should it not be easy to fit in 3 Young Pyromancer into Doomsday to greatly improve the workshops matchup?

Edit
By the way your articles on Doomsday was great and was one of two reasons i bought into vintage after 7 years of absence from the format (the other reason was the BoM tournament featuring both Legacy and Vintage). But I was a sad panda when the deck was not featured in your Gush book. Anyway keep up your great work

[vaughnbros]

Dark rituals accelerate doomsday into a turn 2/3 combo deck capable of racing the other combo decks and dredge.  They also make wasteland significantly less powerful against the deck.

Seeing that your Gush Pyromancer deck has several similarities with Mike Solymossys Doomsday deck which is already playing four colors, should it not be easy to fit in 3 Young Pyromancer into Doomsday to greatly improve the workshops matchup?

This suggests that pyromancer single handedly makes the doomsday deck competitive against workshops.  I don't think this is really the case.  Casing a 2 drop before your other spells with so few lands and artifact mana could be a problem.

[Smmenen]

By the way your articles on Doomsday was great and was one of two reasons i bought into vintage after 7 years of absence from the format (the other reason was the BoM tournament featuring both Legacy and Vintage). But I was a sad panda when the deck was not featured in your Gush book. Anyway keep up your great work

Very simple reason: My Gush book was written in Oct-Dec, 2010, and was updated in only a few months later.

Maniac was printed until 9 months later.  I immediately wrote about Doomsday/Maniac as soon as it became legal.   

Rest assured, Doomsday will be prominently featured in the third edition of my Gush book (which I am working VERY hard on right now). 

Dark rituals accelerate doomsday into a turn 2/3 combo deck capable of racing the other combo decks and dredge.  They also make wasteland significantly less powerful against the deck.

It's training wheels.  Doomsday doesn't need to race combo decks, and is still capable of winning LOTS of games on turn 2/3 without Dark Rituals.  Just tutor up Fastbond and go off.  I've played plenty of games against decks like Dredge/Elves where I turn 1 Imperial Seal for Lotus, turn 2 Doomsday and win.   Not to mention the fact that Jet, Petal, Fastbond and Lotus drawn naturally allow for easy turn 2 wins. 

See the block text I quoted from my article, and you'll see how the very first version of this deck I built had 4 Dark Rituals, and I slowly started to cut them, until I ran 0.

Or, as Emdln said earlier in this thread:

The core of this deck is just the 45 cards that every other Gushbond deck plays. Smmenen built a Ritual-based Gush Storm deck then he built a Gush Control list with an infinitely improved kill condition after recognizing that (at least in his opinion) the best part about the Ritual Gush Storm deck was ability to kill this turn or next turn, with heavy disruption, for 3-4 mana using a card that is a 4-of. He observed that this compact win condition needs mana that the Gushbond engine can already make so he paired a compact win condition with a boatload of disruption.  .

[Wave]

Dark rituals accelerate doomsday into a turn 2/3 combo deck capable of racing the other combo decks and dredge.  They also make wasteland significantly less powerful against the deck.

This suggests that pyromancer single handedly makes the doomsday deck competitive against workshops.  I don't think this is really the case.  Casing a 2 drop before your other spells with so few lands and artifact mana could be a problem.

I actually never said that it would make the deck competitive against workshop my statement was that it would greatly improve the matchup. One of the most common answers to workshops has been to play a couple of Trygon Predators in the main deck.  Young Pyromancer has a better synergy with the deck overall and is probably a better answer to workshop by itself due to casting cost and resulting in inevitable permanent advantage which Doomsday has lacked in the past. The deck Mike Solymossy played had a mana base that could power out a Doomsday reliably that also supported four colors, therefor a similar mana base should be able to support 3 Young Pyromancers. Seeing the success of the Pyromancer decks against workshop it is by no means a stretch to assume that it would also improve the matchup for Doomsday if built correctly. 

Very simple reason: My Gush book was written in Oct-Dec, 2010, and was updated in only a few months later.

Maniac was printed until 9 months later.  I immediately wrote about Doomsday/Maniac as soon as it became legal.   
Rest assured, Doomsday will be prominently featured in the third edition of my Gush book (which I am working VERY hard on right now). 

I assumed so since the Doomsday deck featured in the book was using the old combo instead, however it was still a great read and I'm looking forward to plow through the third edition when it comes out.

[emidln]

Dark rituals accelerate doomsday into a turn 2/3 combo deck capable of racing the other combo decks and dredge.  They also make wasteland significantly less powerful against the deck.

It's training wheels.  Doomsday doesn't need to race combo decks, and is still capable of winning LOTS of games on turn 2/3 without Dark Rituals.  Just tutor up Fastbond and go off.  I've played plenty of games against decks like Dredge/Elves where I turn 1 Imperial Seal for Lotus, turn 2 Doomsday and win.   Not to mention the fact that Jet, Petal, Fastbond and Lotus drawn naturally allow for easy turn 2 wins. 

See the block text I quoted from my article, and you'll see how the very first version of this deck I built had 4 Dark Rituals, and I slowly started to cut them, until I ran 0.

Or, as Emdln said earlier in this thread:

The core of this deck is just the 45 cards that every other Gushbond deck plays. Smmenen built a Ritual-based Gush Storm deck then he built a Gush Control list with an infinitely improved kill condition after recognizing that (at least in his opinion) the best part about the Ritual Gush Storm deck was ability to kill this turn or next turn, with heavy disruption, for 3-4 mana using a card that is a 4-of. He observed that this compact win condition needs mana that the Gushbond engine can already make so he paired a compact win condition with a boatload of disruption.  .

off-topic: I should not write things on my phone, lest a future employer see written word such as this.

on-topic: I would clarify that the training wheels argument applies to the Gush Control deck that wins by casting Doomsday. The 4 Ritual deck featuring Necropotence and possibly Timetwister plays in a very different manner due to the Rituals. The Rituals and additional threats give Ritual Doomsday another set of strengths and weaknesses when compared to Gush Control Doomsday (and they still share some core strengths and weaknesses). The sideboards that the two decks play look very different. The strategic blending that might occur with Gush Control Doomsday is extremely different from what happens to Ritual Doomsday.

If I can find time, I'd like to compare and contrast the two decks more formally (I find both incredibly interesting). As a teaser, at the core of the discussion isn't about Dark Ritual vs extra disruption. Rather, the conflict is between the competing philosophies of complete domination of your opponent prior to winning versus tactical probing (general disruption, lightweight win condition) and maximizing opportunity (Dark Rituals, extra threats, maximum offensive potential disruption).

off-topic: Btw, all who worship at the altar of the skull should write Ritual with a capitalized 'r'. Show some respect.