"The Unbroken" U/R Landstill: The Primer

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Josh, what do you think of Grafdigger's Cage in Landstill? It is maindeck material or SB only? In the second case, Grafdigger's Cage will open 3 slots. Can you see that Trinket Mage deserves a slot, since it searchs EE and Grafdigger's Cage? 

Definitely not a main deck card, I can see a certain # in the sideboard. I was thinking 1-3 sb...but to be honest I might not even play it sb because they would just replace leylines and are just as vulnerable to be killed by same cards as leyline. And I don't want to cut the black from the sb bc access to ee at 3 has been an all-star! So I'm sure a certain # of them can be played but I don't see it as mandatory

[JuzamDjinn]

Josh, what's up with the Rod/Explosives, what are the pros/cons?

[credmond]

Landstill now has 2 variants. EE Landstill and Null Rod Landstill.

I think Null Rod will be more important than EE in the new meta that will be defined by Cage. However only time will tell. Both EE and Null Rod are very potent but obviously they are mutually exclusive and the choice of going EE or Null Rod depends on the meta.

In the Null Rod version I would definitely run 4 x Cage in the sideboard since you really benefit in that version with your Dredge hate overlapping your Oath hate.

[vaughnbros]

Landstill now has 2 variants. EE Landstill and Null Rod Landstill.

I think Null Rod will be more important than EE in the new meta that will be defined by Cage. However only time will tell. Both EE and Null Rod are very potent but obviously they are mutually exclusive and the choice of going EE or Null Rod depends on the meta.

Cage will make more creatures played giving more incentive to be playing engineered explosives not null rod.

In the Null Rod version I would definitely run 4 x Cage in the sideboard since you really benefit in that version with your Dredge hate overlapping your Oath hate.

This deck shouldn't really need oath hate since your running 0 md creatures

[RenatoAmado]

Perhaps Null Rod can be packed in SB. The actual Dredge hate consumes 7 slots (4 Leylines + 1 Jailer + 2 Underground Sea). If Josh are right and Cage works well in 1-3 numbers, Landstill can packs 4 Null Rod in SB to play mana denial strategy and we still put 1 Underground Sea to jump EE sunburst counters to 3.

[rpf5029]

To be honest it won't be a problem. 2 weeks ago I didnt play sapphire and i went 4-1-1 beating all of my opponents 2-0. I missed top 8 though getting 9th. Good luck!

Pfft.  That Lotus sure did come in handy when you crippled my Confidants on turn 1.  I know it did for me to cast them. 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I have moved to engineered explosives because the format shifted towards creatures lately. And I have been beating the broken blue decks that don't even run creatures also. Ee has been great...really great. I am not playing cage for a couple reasons. Dredge players will adapt to the card running missteps, and every other hate card under the sun. That being said leyline dodges misstep and cage doesn't. There are more ways for a dredge player to answer cage. I am keeping the leyline jailer plan in my sideboar bc I have had great succes with it. And I do not see the need to sb null rod when I have been beating every archetype with the current ee list.

[JuzamDjinn]

1) Is Engineered Explosives also the reason you cut 1 Fire/Ice for REB?

2) Why did you cut the Mox Ruby?

3) Are you happy with Faerie Conclave, why did you include it?

4) What are Chain of Vapor for in the SB?

5) Why 4 Ingot/1 E.Flux and not 3/2 or 2/3. E.Flux is such a house against Stax.

Sorry for the interrigation, but I love this deck and want to understand your decisions

[XxtSundaybxX]

1) Is Engineered Explosives also the reason you cut 1 Fire/Ice for REB?

2) Why did you cut the Mox Ruby?

3) Are you happy with Faerie Conclave, why did you include it?

4) What are Chain of Vapor for in the SB?

5) Why 4 Ingot/1 E.Flux and not 3/2 or 2/3. E.Flux is such a house against Stax.

Sorry for the interrigation, but I love this deck and want to understand your decisions

Energy flux often costs up to 6 mana against workshops, coupled with wastelands and ports that's very hard to accomplish sometimes. Also dropping eflux doesn't always auto win the game because shop decks have adapted to playing more "fair" lands which will help pay towards flux. In addition flux doesn't stop factories from killing them if theyre on low life by the time they cast the flux.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

1) Is Engineered Explosives also the reason you cut 1 Fire/Ice for REB?

2) Why did you cut the Mox Ruby?

3) Are you happy with Faerie Conclave, why did you include it?

4) What are Chain of Vapor for in the SB?

5) Why 4 Ingot/1 E.Flux and not 3/2 or 2/3. E.Flux is such a house against Stax.

Sorry for the interrigation, but I love this deck and want to understand your decisions

1. Yes, I cut a fire/ice because explosives can not only handle moxen but it can handle creatures if need be.

2. I cut ruby because I was tired of not drawing lands while under standstill. The mountain has been insane suring up the mana base. I don't have to be afraid of fetching a red source anymore because it is out of the reach of wasteland.

3. I am VERY happy with conclave. Before when I wasn't playing conclave I always wished I had just a little more pressure when I needed it. Either under standstill or not. The conclave has really been good in some additional pressure. I often sat under standstill and wastn't dealing damage if I hadn't seen a manland. Having the 5th manland is nice

4. Chain of vapor in the sb is mainly there to fight stoney silence a little bit more, so you can get an explosives off against the fishy decks. For this is the same reason I kept e-truth in the deck. Bounce spells are really nice in landstill. I wish I could fit the chain main, but that would involve cutting down to 1 reb most likely, and I like reb. Plus chain of vapor can bounce anything that sneaks through the cracks in your counter wall, bouncing a creature or oath, etc.

5. As Allen just stated above, its simply getting too hard to cast it in a meta full of espresso shops. If cat stax were the dominant force in my meta I would deffinately have more then 1 flux. And the chewers speak for themselves. I have mountain to cast them off, they get under thorn, under chalice, and kill anything I choose. This is good! That being said I don't think chewer is a must, because explosives also beats chalice pretty easily. My latest list I am brewing packs a different shops hate sb then the one you are critiquing 

[Shock Wave]

2. I cut ruby because I was tired of not drawing lands while under standstill. The mountain has been insane suring up the mana base. I don't have to be afraid of fetching a red source anymore because it is out of the reach of wasteland.

3. I am VERY happy with conclave. Before when I wasn't playing conclave I always wished I had just a little more pressure when I needed it. Either under standstill or not. The conclave has really been good in some additional pressure. I often sat under standstill and wastn't dealing damage if I hadn't seen a manland. Having the 5th manland is nice

I have been long saying that Ruby is awful in Landstill, and that Conclave is weak but a necessary evil. Standstill becomes significantly weaker once Conclave is cut. I am not sold on the EE approach, since I think Null Rod is the pillar of this deck, but I suppose it is useful in specific metagames. Personally, as opposed to trying to taper Landstill for a Goyf/Aggro metagame, I would play a different deck altogether.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

2. I cut ruby because I was tired of not drawing lands while under standstill. The mountain has been insane suring up the mana base. I don't have to be afraid of fetching a red source anymore because it is out of the reach of wasteland.

3. I am VERY happy with conclave. Before when I wasn't playing conclave I always wished I had just a little more pressure when I needed it. Either under standstill or not. The conclave has really been good in some additional pressure. I often sat under standstill and wastn't dealing damage if I hadn't seen a manland. Having the 5th manland is nice

I have been long saying that Ruby is awful in Landstill, and that Conclave is weak but a necessary evil. Standstill becomes significantly weaker once Conclave is cut. I am not sold on the EE approach, since I think Null Rod is the pillar of this deck, but I suppose it is useful in specific metagames. Personally, as opposed to trying to taper Landstill for a Goyf/Aggro metagame, I would play a different deck altogether.

I'm sorry u feel that way...I feel the engineered explosives is a great replacement for rod. And it solved all of the bugs of the deck by still controlling moxen, or even a creature deck that landstill would normally lose to. If u feel that you would play a different deck then do that lol but what does that comment add to the discussion? I played EE in 2 events already going 4-1-1 (beating everyone 2-0) and missing top 8 getting 9th, and winning the other event. And even when I wasn't playing against creatures EE was useful at controlling mox. And face the facts creatures are popular. Weather bob, goyf, predator, delver, or snapcaster, they are popular...

I wasn't tapering landstill to beat grow, I was tapering landstill to be a more well rounded deck and not lose to ppl playing creatures, and at the same time still beating the broken non creature decks

[cvarosky80]

2. I cut ruby because I was tired of not drawing lands while under standstill. The mountain has been insane suring up the mana base. I don't have to be afraid of fetching a red source anymore because it is out of the reach of wasteland.

3. I am VERY happy with conclave. Before when I wasn't playing conclave I always wished I had just a little more pressure when I needed it. Either under standstill or not. The conclave has really been good in some additional pressure. I often sat under standstill and wastn't dealing damage if I hadn't seen a manland. Having the 5th manland is nice

I have been long saying that Ruby is awful in Landstill, and that Conclave is weak but a necessary evil. Standstill becomes significantly weaker once Conclave is cut. I am not sold on the EE approach, since I think Null Rod is the pillar of this deck, but I suppose it is useful in specific metagames. Personally, as opposed to trying to taper Landstill for a Goyf/Aggro metagame, I would play a different deck altogether.

I'm sorry u feel that way...I feel the engineered explosives is a great replacement for rod. And it solved all of the bugs of the deck by still controlling moxen, or even a creature deck that landstill would normally lose to. If u feel that you would play a different deck then do that lol but what does that comment add to the discussion? I played EE in 2 events already going 4-1-1 (beating everyone 2-0) and missing top 8 getting 9th, and winning the other event. And even when I wasn't playing against creatures EE was useful at controlling mox. And face the facts creatures are popular. Weather bob, goyf, predator, delver, or snapcaster, they are popular...

I wasn't tapering landstill to beat grow, I was tapering landstill to be a more well rounded deck and not lose to ppl playing creatures, and at the same time still beating the broken non creature decks

Being one of his victims on this most recent run and seeing his Top 8 matches in the Bloomsburg tourney, I can personally attest that EE is a HOUSE in this deck. Unlike Null Rod, EE is essentially "hate-proof" against the decks that it faces (i.e. Pretty much every deck out there right now) where Null Rod is more of an annoyance that can easily be dealt with by most Gro and Fish builds, and can be pretty much ignored by Espresso.

[credmond]

2. I cut ruby because I was tired of not drawing lands while under standstill. The mountain has been insane suring up the mana base. I don't have to be afraid of fetching a red source anymore because it is out of the reach of wasteland.

3. I am VERY happy with conclave. Before when I wasn't playing conclave I always wished I had just a little more pressure when I needed it. Either under standstill or not. The conclave has really been good in some additional pressure. I often sat under standstill and wastn't dealing damage if I hadn't seen a manland. Having the 5th manland is nice

I have been long saying that Ruby is awful in Landstill, and that Conclave is weak but a necessary evil. Standstill becomes significantly weaker once Conclave is cut. I am not sold on the EE approach, since I think Null Rod is the pillar of this deck, but I suppose it is useful in specific metagames. Personally, as opposed to trying to taper Landstill for a Goyf/Aggro metagame, I would play a different deck altogether.

I'm sorry u feel that way...I feel the engineered explosives is a great replacement for rod. And it solved all of the bugs of the deck by still controlling moxen, or even a creature deck that landstill would normally lose to. If u feel that you would play a different deck then do that lol but what does that comment add to the discussion? I played EE in 2 events already going 4-1-1 (beating everyone 2-0) and missing top 8 getting 9th, and winning the other event. And even when I wasn't playing against creatures EE was useful at controlling mox. And face the facts creatures are popular. Weather bob, goyf, predator, delver, or snapcaster, they are popular...

I wasn't tapering landstill to beat grow, I was tapering landstill to be a more well rounded deck and not lose to ppl playing creatures, and at the same time still beating the broken non creature decks

Being one of his victims on this most recent run and seeing his Top 8 matches in the Bloomsburg tourney, I can personally attest that EE is a HOUSE in this deck. Unlike Null Rod, EE is essentially "hate-proof" against the decks that it faces (i.e. Pretty much every deck out there right now) where Null Rod is more of an annoyance that can easily be dealt with by most Gro and Fish builds, and can be pretty much ignored by Espresso.

The more decks there are that start packing EE, the better Null Rod gets! So everyone please load up on EE . . . 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

This deck can adapt to anything I think that is what people don't understand about the deck. If rods/silence get more popular and sneak through my wall of counters then I bounce it and use ee anyway, and if stoney silence becomes more popular I play more chain of vapor/s main deck. I have had success with this deck in 2 different formats because I understand it can adapt to pretty much anything this is why I have played it for years

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Here is the list I won with yesterday taking home a mox pearl, I only lost 1 game the whole day, and that was to Jon Jones in the top 4...there were 28 players but plenty of ringers to contend with. This was one of the stronger top 8's I have seen in a while.

UR(g) Landstill

4 Standstill
4 Force of will
2 Mental misstep
2 Red elemental blast
2 Misdirection
2 Mindbreak trap
4 Mana drain
4 Jace, the mindsculptor
2 Crucible of worlds
4 Engineered explosives
1 Hurkyl's recall
1 Chain of vapor
2 Fire/Ice
1 Ancestral recall

1 Black lotus
1 Mox sapphire
1 Mox ruby
4 Scalding tarn
1 Polluted delta
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Tropical island
3 Volcanic island
4 Mishra's factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
1 Library of alexandria

SB
4 Leyline of the void
2 Grafdigger's cage
3 Ingot chewer
1 Artifact mutation
2 Ancient grudge
2 Lightning bolt
1 Tropical island

Below is a brief look at what I beat in the top, I was the #2 seat under Detwiler going into the top 8 and was on the play throughout!

2-0 intuition ak drain tendrils (Seth)
2-0 aggro shop
2-0 gush tps (Jack)

Draw mhar on espresso

2-0 turbo tezz (Jon)

T8 2-0 rug delver (Matt Elias)
T4 2-1 turbo tezz (Jon)
Finals 2-0 intuition ak (Seth)

[Shock Wave]

I'm sorry u feel that way...I feel the engineered explosives is a great replacement for rod. And it solved all of the bugs of the deck by still controlling moxen, or even a creature deck that landstill would normally lose to.

The thing is, EE doesn't control moxen the same way Rod does, since when a Null Rod is in play, your opponent does not have the opportunity to actually use the mana. This is even more important when taking things like Time Vault into consideration.

In my opinion, preventing your opponent from casting spells is one of the most powerful aspects of this deck, and EE doesn't really help in that regard.

If u feel that you would play a different deck then do that lol but what does that comment add to the discussion?

What I did say is that I would play a different deck in a creature heavy metagame. I wasn't trying to discourage the discussion. I think that Landstill is flexible and can adapt to be competitive in any metagame, but I think that the odds of success drop off once creatures become more prevalent.

I played EE in 2 events already going 4-1-1 (beating everyone 2-0) and missing top 8 getting 9th, and winning the other event. And even when I wasn't playing against creatures EE was useful at controlling mox. And face the facts creatures are popular. Weather bob, goyf, predator, delver, or snapcaster, they are popular...

I wasn't disputing that EE is amazing against creatures. It really is great. I just don't agree that EE is comparable to Null Rod when the subject is controlling moxen.

I wasn't tapering landstill to beat grow, I was tapering landstill to be a more well rounded deck and not lose to ppl playing creatures, and at the same time still beating the broken non creature decks

Well, you certainly did a very good job. Trust me, when I wrote the primer on Landstill years ago, I was inundated with criticism about my card choices, despite the success I was having with the deck, so I know exactly what you are saying. Stick to your guns if it is working for you. I was just pointing out how my experiences have differed from yours.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I know it's not the best at controlling moxen, but it does happen. I have felt that explosives made landstill a more diverse deck and can handle every archetype (except ritual storm) with explosives. It makes fishy decks more of a cake walk as well as making the oath match up better. I love rod, trust me. But in our meta game creatures and hoards of them have been popular. And the rod version can not beat those decks on a consistent basis.

In the finals vs Seth Levy, he played mana crypt, mox jet, and sapphire, after popping my standstill to cast intuition and I played ee killing almost his whole board, it's not the best at controlling mox but it happens. Also vs turbo tezz I played ee at 1 and ee at 2 against him and he was not going to take turns on me

The deck is really strong in any meta game. That's why I love the deck, it can adapt to anything!

[Ufactor]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/24086_Five_Useful_Instances_Of_True_Versus_Useful.html

Mike Flores gives five really great points of strategy that can be applied to life in general and Magic: the Gathering if you feel inclined.  Without re-posting much from a premuim article, one of his points is "2. Never play The Rock ...Master Sun explained to me that a great general avoids long, protracted conflicts".

How does Standstill avoid the pitfalls of Rock decks?  Why is it ok to play a deck seeks to make the game as long as possible??

[Stalker007]

nice read good to see that u are always improving your deck design never played landstill decks but aftr reading this i might just do that now and GRATS on the mox

[brokenbacon]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/24086_Five_Useful_Instances_Of_True_Versus_Useful.html

Mike Flores gives five really great points of strategy that can be applied to life in general and Magic: the Gathering if you feel inclined.  Without re-posting much from a premuim article, one of his points is "2. Never play The Rock ...Master Sun explained to me that a great general avoids long, protracted conflicts".

How does Standstill avoid the pitfalls of Rock decks?  Why is it ok to play a deck seeks to make the game as long as possible??

I played Gush TPS against Josh in the most recent tourney. Game 1 I have an absolute blowout hand - I play turn 2 Tinker, he Drains - I play Lotus, Rit, Yawg Will, he Mindbreak Traps. We play topdeck mode for a while, I get Timetwister and run it into a counter, then Noxious Revival it back, and get it countered again. He Wastelands my last Underground Sea, and EE's my Mox Jet. I scoop.
TPS exhausts opponents' counters, then plays Will. Landstill exhausts opponents, and then (to quote Josh) "Humiliates people by winning with lands."

[voltron00x]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/24086_Five_Useful_Instances_Of_True_Versus_Useful.html

Mike Flores gives five really great points of strategy that can be applied to life in general and Magic: the Gathering if you feel inclined.  Without re-posting much from a premuim article, one of his points is "2. Never play The Rock ...Master Sun explained to me that a great general avoids long, protracted conflicts".

How does Standstill avoid the pitfalls of Rock decks?  Why is it ok to play a deck seeks to make the game as long as possible??

Your mistake here is thinking that Landstill creates a protracted conflict.  It doesn't. 

[Shock Wave]

Your mistake here is thinking that Landstill creates a protracted conflict.  It doesn't.  

That pretty much nails it. Landstill and Stax have a striking similarity in that they often take a long time to formally win the game, but the game is actually over long before the win conditions seal the deal. When I first started piloting the deck, my opponents would agonizingly play on until my lands dealt the final points of damage, since they were unaware that they had already lost. Now, most savvy opponents just scoop up their cards and move on to the next game, which from a tactical standpoint, is usually the right thing to do.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/24086_Five_Useful_Instances_Of_True_Versus_Useful.html

Mike Flores gives five really great points of strategy that can be applied to life in general and Magic: the Gathering if you feel inclined.  Without re-posting much from a premuim article, one of his points is "2. Never play The Rock ...Master Sun explained to me that a great general avoids long, protracted conflicts".

How does Standstill avoid the pitfalls of Rock decks?  Why is it ok to play a deck seeks to make the game as long as possible??

I played Gush TPS against Josh in the most recent tourney. Game 1 I have an absolute blowout hand - I play turn 2 Tinker, he Drains - I play Lotus, Rit, Yawg Will, he Mindbreak Traps. We play topdeck mode for a while, I get Timetwister and run it into a counter, then Noxious Revival it back, and get it countered again. He Wastelands my last Underground Sea, and EE's my Mox Jet. I scoop.
TPS exhausts opponents' counters, then plays Will. Landstill exhausts opponents, and then (to quote Josh) "Humiliates people by winning with lands."

"I embarrass people by winning with lands"********* Humiliate works too haha good games Jack!

This is to the people who don't like landstill and don't respect it. That being said I think those people are few and far between nowadays with all the success I have had with the deck.

[brokenbacon]

This is to the people who don't like landstill and don't respect it. That being said I think those people are few and far between nowadays with all the success I have had with the deck.

I used to not be such a fan of the deck, and now after having seen it take down about a bajillion events I have much respect for it and its most venerable pilot, Mr. Potucek. Good games indeed, sir, and congrats on the tourney!!

[CwaM]

Isnt stony silence + creature pressure too hard for the deck when your answer is EE?(that i really like)
I feel like id like some spell snares in that deck (instead of something like mana drain and EE)?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

No. A lot of fishy decks went midrange and cut stony silence. Plus you can counter silence. And even if one sneaks through you have 4 jace and crucible game plan. If they land a silence they are landing one less creature. Spell snare is cute but the other counter magic in the deck is better

[vaughnbros]

Do you think the green splash for better artifact hate in the board is better than the previous black splash for better dredge hate?  Or was that just a meta game call for what you expected to see at that tournament?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Do you think the green splash for better artifact hate in the board is better than the previous black splash for better dredge hate?  Or was that just a meta game call for what you expected to see at that tournament?

Well leyline and jailer are the best ways to beat dredge on paper. As dredge became faster jailer became worse especially since it would be very seldom to land a turn 1 jailer. Then cage was printed. It is vulnerable to misstep and every hate card but landstill plays a million counters. Also cage made the oath matchup better at the same time. I still run leyline because clearly you do not need seas to cast it when its in the opening grip, sure its nice to have the seas in case it gets bounced but its not a huge issue. The black version was better before cage was printed. So as of right now I don't like a black splash at all.

Green clearly makes the shops matchup better as grudges can get under a wire lock. Instant removal is key in addition to the chewers and counter magic.

[Tezzatron]

The problem I see with Cage is that if it is your only piece of dredge hate in play (AKA you didn't draw leyline) it is not disruptive enough by itself to fully slow dredge down. It is acceptable in decks where you have a fast clock because it only stymies their progress and the few turns it buys you are enough to win the game. Since we our route to victory is through permission, manlands and jaces, the few turns that cage stalls the board is not enough to win. And in the situations where you have both cage and leyline, you already have a leyline, so you are winning.

In my opinion, If you only have 4-6 slots, the best way to beat dredge is load up on leylines and cards that serve other functions in other decks (Surgical Extraction, Cage, Mistep, ect) to complement your main route to victory: Leyline. On the contrary, if you have 7+ slots, you have more options and can use cards that while on their own don't beat dredge, once you achieve a critical mass of them they do. For example a Graddigger's cage will not beat dredge. But a grafdigger's cage, a mental mistep and a tormod's crypt almsot assurdely will. Jailer may be to slow, but with a turn one spellbomb or ravenous trap to slow them down, it will get there.
Another benefit to a mutlifarious board with 4 leylines and 4 silver bullets is it doesn't give them the oppurtunity to play around you. Like if they play around cage and lose the jailer, ect.

This deck is overall insane. I'm pretty sure it is the best deck in the format. Think I am going to start playing it. Is there any single cards, or particular strategies that are particularly disruptive or hard to combat?