"The Unbroken" U/R Landstill: The Primer

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

The issue with stony silence is it WON'T stick.  Yes, it stays in play once it's there, but with spell snares/FoW it will most likely not resolve.  Then, even if it does, crucible/shops will take out any bear you can throw at it.  Play a mayor and it gets bolted - mayor I think is the only card mentioned that CAN get out of hand...but between jace, bolts, counters, and dismember, I highly doubt it would live long enough to flip.  Also, the fact that you ancestral them every time you cast a critter is big.  The deck has so many outs and an inherently strong gameplan vs EVERYTHING that it's tough to beat.  The wastes kill dredge, the factories/bolts kill shops, the counterwall kills blue, the EEs + counters kill oath, the EEs/bolts/dismember/factories kill aggro.  Oh, and just because, the 4 jace, ancestral, 4 standstill basically mean it is drawing 3 a turn.  I can't think of a single spell that hurts landstill in any fashion.  Back to basics?  Yeah,  good luck making that stick.

Hyperbole much? I think you need to test the matchup and otherwise read some Greek tragedies where the word hubris comes up. Part of Josh's success with this last list is that it has a built in gambit going for it. The gambit was that aggro would not show up in sufficient numbers as a threat and that gambit proved right in that meta for that tournament. Landstill can of course adapt to fight an aggro heavy meta, but if it has to fight blue, shops, dredge, AND aggro it tends to be stretched too thin. Landstill does best when the meta itself allows it to hide its weak spots.

You are actually pretty far off base here. I built this list with 4 main deck instant creature answers, 4 jace, and 3 ee. This is more then I normally play. GW hate has NEVER...yes...NEVER been a big part of any meta game. The testing against it vs random opponents on cockatrice have been in my advantage. The one Bloomsburg event like a year or 2 ago that I won \, it was one of the first events I ran EE over rod. I played against GW bears in the finals with goyfs, prides, teegs, stonys, etc. The problem is if they dont draw stony or I counter it EE is insane. IF....yes....IF teeg resolves I can burn it off the coard. And I always stay ahead with jace and standstill. So in my experiences I destroy GW hate bears...

Also I think you are off base in your last 2 sentences about landstill in a certain meta. I used to agree with those statements when the deck ran null rod and you had to pick and choose what you wanted to beat. With EE the deck became much much much more flexible and resilient in an unknown meta. Sorry to disagree so much but yeah...I disagree. All of this can boil down to me being one of the best landstill pilots and best at building a good list. Maybe someone with less experience would go along with your line of though but I just disagree.

Congrats on the win, Josh.  My main question about your build is WHY NO TIME WALK?  I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation.  Also no Snapcasters?  Less glaring of an omission, but still notable. 

I haven't ran time walk in close to a year. I have found that it is often equal to an explore. Enough of the times when I drew it, I wished it were a counter or removal or a good card like Jace. This may or may not make sense to you I have received enough criticism on this topic and I don't care if people don't agree to be honest. Sure it is good when a Jace is out obviously. On the 4 Jace topic. I love 4 Jace in this deck. Every game you want to draw standstill or Jace. When you don't, you will lose. It's as plain as that. Having 8 instead of 7 cards that I need to draw has been good. Jace wins games, vs blue, shops, and evrything pretty much. 4 Jace ensures I WIN THE JACE WAR. Also if I draw 2 I can pitch one to force as needed.

The topic of time walk and Jace has come with much criticism, and I play what I play bc I can lol. I test and fish, and manipulate these lists sooo often I know exactly how I want them to run. I am not blowing smoke when I say I test and fish this deck ALL the time, bc I do. So to me what I play is optimal, weather people agree with me or not.

Snapcaster. I have tested this guy and he is mana intense. I prefer 4 Jace, and I like my counter suite too much to make a change to have snappy run better. Trap is no where as narrow of a card compared to flusterstorm. Which would be a replacement possibility to run snappy. Idk from all of the testing I did like 6 months ago or whenever he came out, I never liked him in comparison to other options.

[Wagner]

The issue with stony silence is it WON'T stick.  Yes, it stays in play once it's there, but with spell snares/FoW it will most likely not resolve.  Then, even if it does, crucible/shops will take out any bear you can throw at it.  Play a mayor and it gets bolted - mayor I think is the only card mentioned that CAN get out of hand...but between jace, bolts, counters, and dismember, I highly doubt it would live long enough to flip.  Also, the fact that you ancestral them every time you cast a critter is big.  The deck has so many outs and an inherently strong gameplan vs EVERYTHING that it's tough to beat.  The wastes kill dredge, the factories/bolts kill shops, the counterwall kills blue, the EEs + counters kill oath, the EEs/bolts/dismember/factories kill aggro.  Oh, and just because, the 4 jace, ancestral, 4 standstill basically mean it is drawing 3 a turn.  I can't think of a single spell that hurts landstill in any fashion.  Back to basics?  Yeah,  good luck making that stick.

Oh man, that argument again. Clearly it's not even worth playing in a tournament where there is at least 1 landstill deck. Just perform hara kiri and espace with some dignity. I mean, decks with back to basic or Stony clearly pack no other treats and don't run any counters themselves, and they will never cast it at the right time either, because just knowing their opponent is playing landstill will make them play like idiots out of sheer intimidation.

[credmond]

Jumping on the hubris bandwagon, Josh? Ok, so you guys claiming Landstill is unbeatable . . . let's just wait and see what happens now that Landstill is in the crosshairs of the meta.

The issue with stony silence is it WON'T stick.  Yes, it stays in play once it's there, but with spell snares/FoW it will most likely not resolve.  Then, even if it does, crucible/shops will take out any bear you can throw at it.  Play a mayor and it gets bolted - mayor I think is the only card mentioned that CAN get out of hand...but between jace, bolts, counters, and dismember, I highly doubt it would live long enough to flip.  Also, the fact that you ancestral them every time you cast a critter is big.  The deck has so many outs and an inherently strong gameplan vs EVERYTHING that it's tough to beat.  The wastes kill dredge, the factories/bolts kill shops, the counterwall kills blue, the EEs + counters kill oath, the EEs/bolts/dismember/factories kill aggro.  Oh, and just because, the 4 jace, ancestral, 4 standstill basically mean it is drawing 3 a turn.  I can't think of a single spell that hurts landstill in any fashion.  Back to basics?  Yeah,  good luck making that stick.

Hyperbole much? I think you need to test the matchup and otherwise read some Greek tragedies where the word hubris comes up. Part of Josh's success with this last list is that it has a built in gambit going for it. The gambit was that aggro would not show up in sufficient numbers as a threat and that gambit proved right in that meta for that tournament. Landstill can of course adapt to fight an aggro heavy meta, but if it has to fight blue, shops, dredge, AND aggro it tends to be stretched too thin. Landstill does best when the meta itself allows it to hide its weak spots.

You are actually pretty far off base here. I built this list with 4 main deck instant creature answers, 4 jace, and 3 ee. This is more then I normally play. GW hate has NEVER...yes...NEVER been a big part of any meta game. The testing against it vs random opponents on cockatrice have been in my advantage. The one Bloomsburg event like a year or 2 ago that I won \, it was one of the first events I ran EE over rod. I played against GW bears in the finals with goyfs, prides, teegs, stonys, etc. The problem is if they dont draw stony or I counter it EE is insane. IF....yes....IF teeg resolves I can burn it off the coard. And I always stay ahead with jace and standstill. So in my experiences I destroy GW hate bears...

Also I think you are off base in your last 2 sentences about landstill in a certain meta. I used to agree with those statements when the deck ran null rod and you had to pick and choose what you wanted to beat. With EE the deck became much much much more flexible and resilient in an unknown meta. Sorry to disagree so much but yeah...I disagree. All of this can boil down to me being one of the best landstill pilots and best at building a good list. Maybe someone with less experience would go along with your line of though but I just disagree.

Congrats on the win, Josh.  My main question about your build is WHY NO TIME WALK?  I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation.  Also no Snapcasters?  Less glaring of an omission, but still notable. 

I haven't ran time walk in close to a year. I have found that it is often equal to an explore. Enough of the times when I drew it, I wished it were a counter or removal or a good card like Jace. This may or may not make sense to you I have received enough criticism on this topic and I don't care if people don't agree to be honest. Sure it is good when a Jace is out obviously. On the 4 Jace topic. I love 4 Jace in this deck. Every game you want to draw standstill or Jace. When you don't, you will lose. It's as plain as that. Having 8 instead of 7 cards that I need to draw has been good. Jace wins games, vs blue, shops, and evrything pretty much. 4 Jace ensures I WIN THE JACE WAR. Also if I draw 2 I can pitch one to force as needed.

The topic of time walk and Jace has come with much criticism, and I play what I play bc I can lol. I test and fish, and manipulate these lists sooo often I know exactly how I want them to run. I am not blowing smoke when I say I test and fish this deck ALL the time, bc I do. So to me what I play is optimal, weather people agree with me or not.

Snapcaster. I have tested this guy and he is mana intense. I prefer 4 Jace, and I like my counter suite too much to make a change to have snappy run better. Trap is no where as narrow of a card compared to flusterstorm. Which would be a replacement possibility to run snappy. Idk from all of the testing I did like 6 months ago or whenever he came out, I never liked him in comparison to other options.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I am not saying that GW bear.dec can't beat landstill, but from what I have experienced and played against in the finals I destroyed it. And that is when I was running less instant speed creature removals. Back then I ran 2 normally. A GW pilot can't mulligan to stony, bc then they are getting blown out by the other aspects of landstill.

I am not arguing that GW can't beat landstill, I'm sure it can. But GW bears is not my worst matchup. Not even close hah

Jumping on the hubris bandwagon, Josh? Ok, so you guys claiming Landstill is unbeatable . . . let's just wait and see what happens now that Landstill is in the crosshairs of the meta.

When landstill was in the crosshairs of the meta was when I won 3 events in a row at Blue Bell events a few years ago. EVERYONE went to creatures as an answer. I switched rods to EE's and still continued to win.

I NEVER stated this deck is unbeatable. It certainly is. But GW bears is not the deck to do it. Like I said there is normally 1-3 players on landstill in a 30 man event around me. So if someone wants to build a deck to beat ME, they will jump through hoops to find me bc I will be focused on the other decks, not the one or 2 players just trying to beat me? Know what I mean? Vintage is a broken format and people don't like to play landstill. So I don't think landstill will ever be widely played.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The issue with stony silence is it WON'T stick.  Yes, it stays in play once it's there, but with spell snares/FoW it will most likely not resolve.  Then, even if it does, crucible/shops will take out any bear you can throw at it.  Play a mayor and it gets bolted - mayor I think is the only card mentioned that CAN get out of hand...but between jace, bolts, counters, and dismember, I highly doubt it would live long enough to flip.  Also, the fact that you ancestral them every time you cast a critter is big.  The deck has so many outs and an inherently strong gameplan vs EVERYTHING that it's tough to beat.  The wastes kill dredge, the factories/bolts kill shops, the counterwall kills blue, the EEs + counters kill oath, the EEs/bolts/dismember/factories kill aggro.  Oh, and just because, the 4 jace, ancestral, 4 standstill basically mean it is drawing 3 a turn.  I can't think of a single spell that hurts landstill in any fashion.  Back to basics?  Yeah,  good luck making that stick.

Hyperbole much? I think you need to test the matchup and otherwise read some Greek tragedies where the word hubris comes up. Part of Josh's success with this last list is that it has a built in gambit going for it. The gambit was that aggro would not show up in sufficient numbers as a threat and that gambit proved right in that meta for that tournament. Landstill can of course adapt to fight an aggro heavy meta, but if it has to fight blue, shops, dredge, AND aggro it tends to be stretched too thin. Landstill does best when the meta itself allows it to hide its weak spots.

It's hubris, but actually true.  Josh adapts the deck to suit a meta, but if he took the list he just ran and didn't change a single card, I don't see a list out there that can beat it.  Any hate you bring in can get killed/countered.  Even stony only hits 1 card and a couple moxen/lotus - so you're running 4 cards to shut down 7 cards (not even counting your own moxen/lotus).  The issue is resolving spells that he can't just kill anyway.  factories and 5 strip are murder against shops, so even dropping multiple spheres isn't icing the game for shops.  Dredge is toast.  5 strips main and then short of 100 sb answers.  Tell me the card that can significantly hurt landstill that it can't easily play around?  Tell me a single deck in creation that has better than a 35% chance vs landstill?  I argue there is none but the mirror.

[credmond]

Big claim for a deck that has had a significant dry spell. Why didn't Landstill win Vintage champs this last year? The over confidence here is laughable.

I play Landstill and I know what it can and cannot do. It's a solid deck and very versatile but the key to it is not that it's unbeatable . . . the key is that you metagame your list to hide the inevitable weak spot.

Oh and remora is also pretty handy tech at putting Landstill on its knees.

The issue with stony silence is it WON'T stick.  Yes, it stays in play once it's there, but with spell snares/FoW it will most likely not resolve.  Then, even if it does, crucible/shops will take out any bear you can throw at it.  Play a mayor and it gets bolted - mayor I think is the only card mentioned that CAN get out of hand...but between jace, bolts, counters, and dismember, I highly doubt it would live long enough to flip.  Also, the fact that you ancestral them every time you cast a critter is big.  The deck has so many outs and an inherently strong gameplan vs EVERYTHING that it's tough to beat.  The wastes kill dredge, the factories/bolts kill shops, the counterwall kills blue, the EEs + counters kill oath, the EEs/bolts/dismember/factories kill aggro.  Oh, and just because, the 4 jace, ancestral, 4 standstill basically mean it is drawing 3 a turn.  I can't think of a single spell that hurts landstill in any fashion.  Back to basics?  Yeah,  good luck making that stick.

Hyperbole much? I think you need to test the matchup and otherwise read some Greek tragedies where the word hubris comes up. Part of Josh's success with this last list is that it has a built in gambit going for it. The gambit was that aggro would not show up in sufficient numbers as a threat and that gambit proved right in that meta for that tournament. Landstill can of course adapt to fight an aggro heavy meta, but if it has to fight blue, shops, dredge, AND aggro it tends to be stretched too thin. Landstill does best when the meta itself allows it to hide its weak spots.

It's hubris, but actually true.  Josh adapts the deck to suit a meta, but if he took the list he just ran and didn't change a single card, I don't see a list out there that can beat it.  Any hate you bring in can get killed/countered.  Even stony only hits 1 card and a couple moxen/lotus - so you're running 4 cards to shut down 7 cards (not even counting your own moxen/lotus).  The issue is resolving spells that he can't just kill anyway.  factories and 5 strip are murder against shops, so even dropping multiple spheres isn't icing the game for shops.  Dredge is toast.  5 strips main and then short of 100 sb answers.  Tell me the card that can significantly hurt landstill that it can't easily play around?  Tell me a single deck in creation that has better than a 35% chance vs landstill?  I argue there is none but the mirror.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Big claim for a deck that has had a significant dry spell. Why didn't Landstill win Vintage champs this last year? The over confidence here is laughable.

I play Landstill and I know what it can and cannot do. It's a solid deck and very versatile but the key to it is not that it's unbeatable . . . the key is that you metagame your list to hide the inevitable weak spot.

Oh and remora is also pretty handy tech at putting Landstill on its knees.

The issue with stony silence is it WON'T stick.  Yes, it stays in play once it's there, but with spell snares/FoW it will most likely not resolve.  Then, even if it does, crucible/shops will take out any bear you can throw at it.  Play a mayor and it gets bolted - mayor I think is the only card mentioned that CAN get out of hand...but between jace, bolts, counters, and dismember, I highly doubt it would live long enough to flip.  Also, the fact that you ancestral them every time you cast a critter is big.  The deck has so many outs and an inherently strong gameplan vs EVERYTHING that it's tough to beat.  The wastes kill dredge, the factories/bolts kill shops, the counterwall kills blue, the EEs + counters kill oath, the EEs/bolts/dismember/factories kill aggro.  Oh, and just because, the 4 jace, ancestral, 4 standstill basically mean it is drawing 3 a turn.  I can't think of a single spell that hurts landstill in any fashion.  Back to basics?  Yeah,  good luck making that stick.

Hyperbole much? I think you need to test the matchup and otherwise read some Greek tragedies where the word hubris comes up. Part of Josh's success with this last list is that it has a built in gambit going for it. The gambit was that aggro would not show up in sufficient numbers as a threat and that gambit proved right in that meta for that tournament. Landstill can of course adapt to fight an aggro heavy meta, but if it has to fight blue, shops, dredge, AND aggro it tends to be stretched too thin. Landstill does best when the meta itself allows it to hide its weak spots.

It's hubris, but actually true.  Josh adapts the deck to suit a meta, but if he took the list he just ran and didn't change a single card, I don't see a list out there that can beat it.  Any hate you bring in can get killed/countered.  Even stony only hits 1 card and a couple moxen/lotus - so you're running 4 cards to shut down 7 cards (not even counting your own moxen/lotus).  The issue is resolving spells that he can't just kill anyway.  factories and 5 strip are murder against shops, so even dropping multiple spheres isn't icing the game for shops.  Dredge is toast.  5 strips main and then short of 100 sb answers.  Tell me the card that can significantly hurt landstill that it can't easily play around?  Tell me a single deck in creation that has better than a 35% chance vs landstill?  I argue there is none but the mirror.

Remora?  You mean that 1cc enchantment that gets hit by pierce, REB, mistep and FoW?  That card that is hard to pay upkeep on when your lands are wasted?  The card that landstill can just ignore and beat face with factories while you tap out paying upkeep on?  Oh, that one - okay.  Very tech.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I am done with this thread until it gets back on track. NEVER EVER DID I ONCE SAY IT'S UNBEATABLE. At worlds in my win and in round I lost to dredge after time and turns were happening. My opponent didn't know what Mishra's Factory did. Previous to that loss I was 3-0 vs dredge. So that's why landstill wasn't in the top 8.

All of these things you are saying just are laughable. The GW hate deck, remora putting landstill on its knees? Do you know I want to play a slow game? Remora ties up my opponents mana lol. I have played against such strategies you talk about. Idk this success for me may only be because I am one of the most skilled players at building and piloting a landstill list...

So I will just agree to disagree. Thanks

[TheWhiteDragon]

I am done with this thread until it gets back on track. NEVER EVER DID I ONCE SAY IT'S UNBEATABLE. At worlds in my win and in round I lost to dredge after time and turns were happening. My opponent didn't know what Mishra's Factory did. Previous to that loss I was 3-0 vs dredge. So that's why landstill wasn't in the top 8.

All of these things you are saying just are laughable. The GW hate deck, remora putting landstill on its knees? Do you know I want to play a slow game? Remora ties up my opponents mana lol. I have played against such strategies you talk about. Idk this success for me may only be because I am one of the most skilled players at building and piloting a landstill list...

So I will just agree to disagree. Thanks

Josh, to your credit, you didn't say it was unbeatable - I did.  And I think your tourney results show the same.  You lost to dredge at worlds, because dredge can just sometimes go nuts even in the hands of bad players...and with the main 5 strips + all the dredge sb hate you pack, i highly doubt you'd ever lose to dredge except for extremely bad luck.  The strategies of avoiding the stack while not relying on the grave is the strength of this deck.  The fact that it can outdraw and own the stack or the battlefield is what puts it over the top.  You said it has no weak matches, and has several strong matces.  i took it one further and said that no deck is better than 35% vs landstill - because there are no cards that can actually significantly hinder it.  Grave strategies are significantly hit by leyline and a thousand other spells.  Oath is significantly hurt by grafdigger and several other spells.  Storm is significantly hurt by mindbreak/fusterstorm and any sphere effect.  Shops are effected by anything that dodges the stack and a ton of artifact hate.  Aggro is significantly hurt by sweepers (pyroclasm, EE, balance, damnation, etc.).  Landstill is not hurt by anything beyond the nuisance equivalent to a horsefly bite.

[credmond]

Maybe I am just really good at beating Landstill with GW and remora because I play Landstill as well.

Seriously, 90% of opponents don't know when to optimally pop the standstill against me when I play Landstill. They don't understand the matchup as much as they should. I do because I play Landstill and when you play it you get to understand its weak areas. Landstill cannot win fast so often you can hang back and wait until your hand is rich enough to blast through landstill defenses after making sure that the standstill when its popped is a draw three discard four. 

When I am on Landstill, remora is not a card I want to see a blue combo control player put down when he has the mana to do broken things. If i can counter it then and there with pyro or whatever I just traded 1 for 1, but if I cannot then I lose the ability to win a counter war over the follow up bomb. The key here is that the remora player waits for the right time to play remora. It is not necessarily early game when the Landstill player has the ability to attack the mana. All of this is understood when you actually play Landstill and play against Landstill.

Let's just wait and see how dominant Landstill becomes and how useless aggro strategies are at stopping this "unbeatable" list.

I am done with this thread until it gets back on track. NEVER EVER DID I ONCE SAY IT'S UNBEATABLE. At worlds in my win and in round I lost to dredge after time and turns were happening. My opponent didn't know what Mishra's Factory did. Previous to that loss I was 3-0 vs dredge. So that's why landstill wasn't in the top 8.

All of these things you are saying just are laughable. The GW hate deck, remora putting landstill on its knees? Do you know I want to play a slow game? Remora ties up my opponents mana lol. I have played against such strategies you talk about. Idk this success for me may only be because I am one of the most skilled players at building and piloting a landstill list...

So I will just agree to disagree. Thanks

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Landstill is a dominant deck. BUT, it will never be popular because most people want to do broken things in this format. So you can meta your decks to "beat" landstill and often never face it...

I play against some of the best blue pilots in the world here on the east coast and have played against remora often. Hasn't been recent, bc remora is just not good in the current meta(but that's a whole different discussion). So we clearly have different results on what you say puts landstill on its knees.

Landstill is not easy to pilot, understand, or play. I have been putting up results for a long time with landstill. Not to question your experience on piloting landstill Credmond, but have you consistently played/tested landstill? If so do you have results? I don't know your IRL name. I have been playing this deck for 6 or more years...So like I said I will agree to disagree

I hope all of your results and testing aren't Cockatrice...

[Patoon]

On an unrelated (yet actually more related) topic.

What were your thoughts on Spell Pierce in the list? Ever wish it was something else?

[credmond]

It's a little unclear here, are you questioning my experience or not? I have been playing Landstill since 2007 or so.

Good players can beat Landstill. Running out remora when you don't have the mana to build it up will get you to lose against Landstill. Waiting until the Landstill player with standstill in play has 8 cards at their end of turn to then repeal something and getting them to discard down to seven to match your seven next turn and then follow up on your turn with remora into tinker or will is what will win you the game. Lots of players lose to landstill because they simply don't understand that matchup.

You have to understand that when you are playing remora you cant just run remora out like you would against any other deck. You have to run the remora out to beat landstill and that involves hitting landstill where it bottlenecks.

For you to understand what I mean Josh you would have to pick remora up as a deck and knowing what you know about landstill playing the remora deck against someone on landstill. I guarantee you as an experienced Landstill player will make tighter decisions on how to attack Landstill and will find in the card remora a very effective tool at beating landstill when you know what you are doing. There simply is an inside knowledge you gain by playing Landstill a lot about how to screw other Landstill player with a card like remora. Done right, remora is a beating!

But hey, let's just wait and see how dominant Landstill can get. I have absolutely zero problem seeing if the future backs up your claims at dominance or not. At the end of the day I am not the one claiming unbeatability or tier 1 status for Landstill. It just seems to me a bit early for you guys to be going on a victory parade for having won Vintage.

Landstill is a dominant deck. BUT, it will never be popular because most people want to do broken things in this format. So you can meta your decks to "beat" landstill and often never face it...

I play against some of the best blue pilots in the world here on the east coast and have played against remora often. Hasn't been recent, bc remora is just not good in the current meta(but that's a whole different discussion). So we clearly have different results on what you say puts landstill on its knees.

Landstill is not easy to pilot, understand, or play. I have been putting up results for a long time with landstill. Not to question your experience on piloting landstill Credmond, but have you consistently played/tested landstill? If so do you have results? I don't know your IRL name. I have been playing this deck for 6 or more years...So like I said I will agree to disagree

I hope all of your results and testing aren't Cockatrice...

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

It's a little unclear here, are you questioning my experience or not? I have been playing Landstill since 2007 or so.

Good players can beat Landstill. Running out remora when you don't have the mana to build it up will get you to lose against Landstill. Waiting until the Landstill player with standstill in play has 8 cards at their end of turn to then repeal something and getting them to discard down to seven to match your seven next turn and then follow up on your turn with remora into tinker or will is what will win you the game. Lots of players lose to landstill because they simply don't understand that matchup.

You have to understand that when you are playing remora you cant just run remora out like you would against any other deck. You have to run the remora out to beat landstill and that involves hitting landstill where it bottlenecks.

For you to understand what I mean Josh you would have to pick remora up as a deck and knowing what you know about landstill playing the remora deck against someone on landstill. I guarantee you as an experienced Landstill player will make tighter decisions on how to attack Landstill and will find in the card remora a very effective tool at beating landstill when you know what you are doing. There simply is an inside knowledge you gain by playing Landstill a lot about how to screw other Landstill player with a card like remora. Done right, remora is a beating!

But hey, let's just wait and see how dominant Landstill can get. I have absolutely zero problem seeing if the future backs up your claims at dominance or not. At the end of the day I am not the one claiming unbeatability or tier 1 status for Landstill. It just seems to me a bit early for you guys to be going on a victory parade for having won Vintage.

Landstill is a dominant deck. BUT, it will never be popular because most people want to do broken things in this format. So you can meta your decks to "beat" landstill and often never face it...

I play against some of the best blue pilots in the world here on the east coast and have played against remora often. Hasn't been recent, bc remora is just not good in the current meta(but that's a whole different discussion). So we clearly have different results on what you say puts landstill on its knees.

Landstill is not easy to pilot, understand, or play. I have been putting up results for a long time with landstill. Not to question your experience on piloting landstill Credmond, but have you consistently played/tested landstill? If so do you have results? I don't know your IRL name. I have been playing this deck for 6 or more years...So like I said I will agree to disagree

I hope all of your results and testing aren't Cockatrice...

I play with broken decks too, my vintage experience doesn't end with landstill lol. I have won with broken cards as well. If you are waiting until mid game to cast remora against landstill, it's probably already too late. You will be buried in card advantage because standstill. And if thats the case mental misstep eats up remora. Remora based decks were much better before misstep. Remora is terrible in the current meta. Landstill is dominant in the right hands. It will never be popular.

As far as good players being able to beat landstill...I play in the best area in the world for vintage, and play against some of the best players that play vintage. So I am not sure which good players you refer to? Of course I can lose and have lost to a good player but I never feel like a dog in any matchup. Thanks

On an unrelated (yet actually more related) topic.

What were your thoughts on Spell Pierce in the list? Ever wish it was something else?

I love it in the deck. Its a flexible counter that has targets in most matchups...More flexible then reb maindeck and 2nd misD. That's why I am playing them, purely on flexibility...

[credmond]

I play with broken decks too, my vintage experience doesn't end with landstill lol. I have won with broken cards as well. If you are waiting until mid game to cast remora against landstill, it's probably already too late. You will be buried in card advantage because standstill.

What card advantage do you have? I waited until you had 8 cards in hand and at the end of your end step to crack standstill and then proceed to not engage until the turn passes. You discard down to 7 and I draw to 7 in my turn. I then lead with remora on my turn which forces you to engage with me on my terms. Turning the Landstill player's standstill into a careful study is how you win.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Ok you're right  

...me fixing my 7 card hand and you most likely having some cards I don't need to counter in your hand (unless they are all bombs). I will take my 7 card hand any day of the week. But again I guess your right. Start winning with remora.broken.dec and I will be on board  

Hell with this ~out~of~nowhere~ success with this remora/new age remora deck (in a meta full of creatures and missteps), maybe I will play this remora deck instead!!! Sounds like a great deck!

[credmond]

Remora is just one example and we are not necessarily talking about a remora deck but possibly remora as a sideboard card brought against control decks. Play out the exact same scenario above but leading with duress and then using flusterstorm to protect your bomb.

The key is taking advantage of Landstill's slow clock to build a hand that can blast through the counter wall to resolve a game winning bomb. Most players try to go off prematurely thinking that waiting is bad for them. On the other hand waiting is usually good for them as long as waiting isn't decimating their mana base.

Ok you're right  

...me fixing my 7 card hand and you most likely having some cards I don't need to counter in your hand (unless they are all bombs). I will take my 7 card hand any day of the week. But again I guess your right. Start winning with remora.broken.dec and I will be on board  

Hell with this ~out~of~nowhere~ success with this remora/new age remora deck (in a meta full of creatures and missteps), maybe I will play this remora deck instead!!! Sounds like a great deck!

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Remora is just one example and we are not necessarily talking about a remora deck but possibly remora as a sideboard card brought against control decks. Play out the exact same scenario above but leading with duress and then using flusterstorm to protect your bomb.

The key is taking advantage of Landstill's slow clock to build a hand that can blast through the counter wall to resolve a game winning bomb. Most players try to go off prematurely thinking that waiting is bad for them. On the other hand waiting is usually good for them as long as waiting isn't decimating their mana base.

Ok you're right  

...me fixing my 7 card hand and you most likely having some cards I don't need to counter in your hand (unless they are all bombs). I will take my 7 card hand any day of the week. But again I guess your right. Start winning with remora.broken.dec and I will be on board  

Hell with this ~out~of~nowhere~ success with this remora/new age remora deck (in a meta full of creatures and missteps), maybe I will play this remora deck instead!!! Sounds like a great deck!

I had a counterwar of the magnitude you talk about mid game vs doomsday in game 1 of the finals. I had 5 or six counters on the stack and won the counter war. Inevitably broken/big blue will have some number of non bombs in hand. And generally if we are playing the waiting game my hand will be sculpted of primarily counters...

And as you noted and if they are waiting I am eating the mana base up.

I test against many of the best vintage minds in the game. And regularly play against some of them in the events I go to...

[credmond]

Care to elaborate? I can easily see him losing if he goes blindly into your counterwall. Did he make the terrible mistake of cracking standstill on his main? If so, that's just a bad play from someone not understanding the matchup. Did he lead with duress to map out his win? I am sure you can see the value of cards like duress, remora, swarm, and fluster for the person going up against standstill.

Remora is just one example and we are not necessarily talking about a remora deck but possibly remora as a sideboard card brought against control decks. Play out the exact same scenario above but leading with duress and then using flusterstorm to protect your bomb.

The key is taking advantage of Landstill's slow clock to build a hand that can blast through the counter wall to resolve a game winning bomb. Most players try to go off prematurely thinking that waiting is bad for them. On the other hand waiting is usually good for them as long as waiting isn't decimating their mana base.

Ok you're right  

...me fixing my 7 card hand and you most likely having some cards I don't need to counter in your hand (unless they are all bombs). I will take my 7 card hand any day of the week. But again I guess your right. Start winning with remora.broken.dec and I will be on board  

Hell with this ~out~of~nowhere~ success with this remora/new age remora deck (in a meta full of creatures and missteps), maybe I will play this remora deck instead!!! Sounds like a great deck!

I had a counterwar of the magnitude you talk about mid game vs doomsday in game 1 of the finals. I had 5 or six counters on the stack and won the counter war. Inevitably broken/big blue will have some number of non bombs in hand. And generally if we are playing the waiting game my hand will be sculpted of primarily counters...

And as you noted and if they are waiting I am eating the mana base up.

I test against many of the best vintage minds in the game. And regularly play against some of them in the events I go to...

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Care to elaborate? I can easily see him losing if he goes blindly into your counterwall. Did he make the terrible mistake of cracking standstill on his main? If so, that's just a bad play from someone not understanding the matchup. Did he lead with duress to map out his win? I am sure you can see the value of cards like duress, remora, swarm, and fluster for the person going up against standstill.

Remora is just one example and we are not necessarily talking about a remora deck but possibly remora as a sideboard card brought against control decks. Play out the exact same scenario above but leading with duress and then using flusterstorm to protect your bomb.

The key is taking advantage of Landstill's slow clock to build a hand that can blast through the counter wall to resolve a game winning bomb. Most players try to go off prematurely thinking that waiting is bad for them. On the other hand waiting is usually good for them as long as waiting isn't decimating their mana base.

Ok you're right  

...me fixing my 7 card hand and you most likely having some cards I don't need to counter in your hand (unless they are all bombs). I will take my 7 card hand any day of the week. But again I guess your right. Start winning with remora.broken.dec and I will be on board  

Hell with this ~out~of~nowhere~ success with this remora/new age remora deck (in a meta full of creatures and missteps), maybe I will play this remora deck instead!!! Sounds like a great deck!

I had a counterwar of the magnitude you talk about mid game vs doomsday in game 1 of the finals. I had 5 or six counters on the stack and won the counter war. Inevitably broken/big blue will have some number of non bombs in hand. And generally if we are playing the waiting game my hand will be sculpted of primarily counters...

And as you noted and if they are waiting I am eating the mana base up.

I test against many of the best vintage minds in the game. And regularly play against some of them in the events I go to...

Game 1 he gitax probed me turn 1 and saw force jace trap. He couldn'g go off through double counter, so he waited. By the time he could beat double counter I had a ton more. Flusterstorm is easily played around in a counter war...I PM'd him to see if he wanted to add to this discussion if I am missing anything here.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Just to chime in and add to the obviousness against remora...

While you're tapping lands and moxen to pay for remora, landstill is dropping lands and manlands to beat and pay for counters.  While you're sculpting your bomb hand with duress lead, landstill is sculpting its 5 counter hand with jace and dismember.  By cracking standstill during eot before discard (which is obviously the best time to do it) you give them 10 cards from which to choose the best 7 counterwall to keep.  Once you decide to go off, you're going to need duress, flusterx2, FoW + blue and a bomb that consists of no more than 2 cards (lotus/yawgwill?) and even then have about a 10% chance of resolving your bomb.  I assume you keep paying for remora while trying to go off so you draw off all their counters....but than you have almost no mana to capitalize on your bomb anyway.  Maybe you are suggesting to crack eot and then fight over some fresh remoras...but they will get countered and then so will your bomb.

[Wagner]

Just to chime in and add to the obviousness against remora...

While you're tapping lands and moxen to pay for remora, landstill is dropping lands and manlands to beat and pay for counters.  While you're sculpting your bomb hand with duress lead, landstill is sculpting its 5 counter hand with jace and dismember.  By cracking standstill during eot before discard (which is obviously the best time to do it) you give them 10 cards from which to choose the best 7 counterwall to keep.  Once you decide to go off, you're going to need duress, flusterx2, FoW + blue and a bomb that consists of no more than 2 cards (lotus/yawgwill?) and even then have about a 10% chance of resolving your bomb.  I assume you keep paying for remora while trying to go off so you draw off all their counters....but than you have almost no mana to capitalize on your bomb anyway.  Maybe you are suggesting to crack eot and then fight over some fresh remoras...but they will get countered and then so will your bomb.

Yes yes, we got it, Landstill will counter ALL of your cards ALL the time. Please move on.

[credmond]

Why play remora early against Landstill? What brokenness are you trying to contain from the landstill player? If you know the matchup, you obviously hold remora in hand until you want to protect a bomb and then lead with remora. Anyone who plays remora early against Landstill is obviously doing it all wrong and wasting what otherwise would be a potent tool if used correctly. Remora is a one mana cost bomb that the Landstill player has to deal with when you are ready to go off. The best the Landstill deck can hope for is to be able to misstep your remora. Pressuring the Landstill player to Mana Drain or Force your Remora is somewhere you want to be - fighting over 1 mana bombs that the Landstill player has to answer is somewhere you want to be. You use remora to screw up their ability to engage with you on the stack when you are ready to engage with landstill on the stack. You have a very pigeonholed understanding of remora and are failing to see that you should sequence it differently when you go up against landstill. This just underscores my point that a lot of people lose because they just don't understand the matchup.

Just to chime in and add to the obviousness against remora...

While you're tapping lands and moxen to pay for remora, landstill is dropping lands and manlands to beat and pay for counters.  While you're sculpting your bomb hand with duress lead, landstill is sculpting its 5 counter hand with jace and dismember.  By cracking standstill during eot before discard (which is obviously the best time to do it) you give them 10 cards from which to choose the best 7 counterwall to keep.  Once you decide to go off, you're going to need duress, flusterx2, FoW + blue and a bomb that consists of no more than 2 cards (lotus/yawgwill?) and even then have about a 10% chance of resolving your bomb.  I assume you keep paying for remora while trying to go off so you draw off all their counters....but than you have almost no mana to capitalize on your bomb anyway.  Maybe you are suggesting to crack eot and then fight over some fresh remoras...but they will get countered and then so will your bomb.

[Shock Wave]

Wow. I've seen a lot of "The sky is falling!" threads, but seriously ... Landstill being "unbeatable"? There are a lot of cards that pose serious problems for this deck, in any of its iterations. I remember way back around 2003-2005, after years of having terrorized my local metagame, a local player (Razor on TMD) created a deck called "Oshawa Stompy" that was pretty much an auto loss for Landstill. I am pretty sure it would destroy Landstill today too. Maybe not, but the point is that this deck is very beatable, and if you think otherwise, then you just don't understand how it works very well or haven't tested enough against it.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Why play remora early against Landstill? What brokenness are you trying to contain from the landstill player? If you know the matchup, you obviously hold remora in hand until you want to protect a bomb and then lead with remora. Anyone who plays remora early against Landstill is obviously doing it all wrong and wasting what otherwise would be a potent tool if used correctly. Remora is a one mana cost bomb that the Landstill player has to deal with when you are ready to go off. The best the Landstill deck can hope for is to be able to misstep your remora. Pressuring the Landstill player to Mana Drain or Force your Remora is somewhere you want to be - fighting over 1 mana bombs that the Landstill player has to answer is somewhere you want to be. You use remora to screw up their ability to engage with you on the stack when you are ready to engage with landstill on the stack. You have a very pigeonholed understanding of remora and are failing to see that you should sequence it differently when you go up against landstill. This just underscores my point that a lot of people lose because they just don't understand the matchup.

Just to chime in and add to the obviousness against remora...

While you're tapping lands and moxen to pay for remora, landstill is dropping lands and manlands to beat and pay for counters.  While you're sculpting your bomb hand with duress lead, landstill is sculpting its 5 counter hand with jace and dismember.  By cracking standstill during eot before discard (which is obviously the best time to do it) you give them 10 cards from which to choose the best 7 counterwall to keep.  Once you decide to go off, you're going to need duress, flusterx2, FoW + blue and a bomb that consists of no more than 2 cards (lotus/yawgwill?) and even then have about a 10% chance of resolving your bomb.  I assume you keep paying for remora while trying to go off so you draw off all their counters....but than you have almost no mana to capitalize on your bomb anyway.  Maybe you are suggesting to crack eot and then fight over some fresh remoras...but they will get countered and then so will your bomb.

My point was being even if you DON'T play remora early and just hand sculpt under a standstill, they are doing the same thing...and when you try to play the remora, it's not going to resolve, nor will your bomb.  They'll be looking 3 cards deeper than you to get more counters, of which they run 15+ and many being free or 1cc.  I can understand if you think you can eot something useless to crack the standstill, let them keep their best 7, then you have a hand of remora, remora, duress, duress, fluster, black lotus, yawg will (or crypt/tinker assuming they don't just jace or hurkylls it anyway) and a stocked grave - then MAYBE you win.  But odds are, while you shaped that perfect hand, they drew into misstep, pierce, fow, ancestral, mindbreak, lightning bolt, mana drain as well.  It's not often that you'll draw that awesome hand in 7 turns and they drew 5 straight lands.  Like I said, bad luck can beat the deck - but in a competent pilots hands with average luck, I doubt any strategy can beat it consistently.  100 games played, not any opponent will take more than 35.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Wow. I've seen a lot of "The sky is falling!" threads, but seriously ... Landstill being "unbeatable"? There are a lot of cards that pose serious problems for this deck, in any of its iterations. I remember way back around 2003-2005, after years of having terrorized my local metagame, a local player (Razor on TMD) created a deck called "Oshawa Stompy" that was pretty much an auto loss for Landstill. I am pretty sure it would destroy Landstill today too. Maybe not, but the point is that this deck is very beatable, and if you think otherwise, then you just don't understand how it works very well or haven't tested enough against it.

Oshawa stompy was before mental misstep saw play.  The EEs, bolts, dismembers, and eternal factories would surely beat stompy.   Even a deck like goblins with cavern of souls - fast and redundant and pro-blue piledrivers with wastes and null rods - doesn't have a chance against this list.  I've run it through a gauntlet for a LONG time...and it just wrecks everything.  Yes, it can be beat, as can any deck, but it is the favortite in every matchup.  There's no deck that's unbeatable because luck is a factor...but there's nothing you can board in that wrecks this deck like you can against many other types of decks.  The gameplan is very "anti"-proof and the cards so diversified that no cards deal a crippling blow (a la grafdigger vs oath, leyline vs dredge, etc.)

Please inform me of any of these "lots of cards" that pose a serious threat to landstill?  I can't find any.  Pithing needle was the best i came up with, but even that is easily answered.

[credmond]

Given your claims (that Landstill is 65/35 vs all other decks), you should have no trouble looking over the last year and statistically finding Landstill to be the best performing deck of the year.

Go ahead check.

We are waiting.

And if Landstill was in your gauntlet for a while, how come you didn't notice it was better than Bomberman back when you were touting Bomberman as the best deck??

If Landstill were a girl, it would be like you are psycho-stalking it right now. Any sense of logic is out the window and you directly contradict your very own statements from a few months ago.

Why play remora early against Landstill? What brokenness are you trying to contain from the landstill player? If you know the matchup, you obviously hold remora in hand until you want to protect a bomb and then lead with remora. Anyone who plays remora early against Landstill is obviously doing it all wrong and wasting what otherwise would be a potent tool if used correctly. Remora is a one mana cost bomb that the Landstill player has to deal with when you are ready to go off. The best the Landstill deck can hope for is to be able to misstep your remora. Pressuring the Landstill player to Mana Drain or Force your Remora is somewhere you want to be - fighting over 1 mana bombs that the Landstill player has to answer is somewhere you want to be. You use remora to screw up their ability to engage with you on the stack when you are ready to engage with landstill on the stack. You have a very pigeonholed understanding of remora and are failing to see that you should sequence it differently when you go up against landstill. This just underscores my point that a lot of people lose because they just don't understand the matchup.

Just to chime in and add to the obviousness against remora...

While you're tapping lands and moxen to pay for remora, landstill is dropping lands and manlands to beat and pay for counters.  While you're sculpting your bomb hand with duress lead, landstill is sculpting its 5 counter hand with jace and dismember.  By cracking standstill during eot before discard (which is obviously the best time to do it) you give them 10 cards from which to choose the best 7 counterwall to keep.  Once you decide to go off, you're going to need duress, flusterx2, FoW + blue and a bomb that consists of no more than 2 cards (lotus/yawgwill?) and even then have about a 10% chance of resolving your bomb.  I assume you keep paying for remora while trying to go off so you draw off all their counters....but than you have almost no mana to capitalize on your bomb anyway.  Maybe you are suggesting to crack eot and then fight over some fresh remoras...but they will get countered and then so will your bomb.

My point was being even if you DON'T play remora early and just hand sculpt under a standstill, they are doing the same thing...and when you try to play the remora, it's not going to resolve, nor will your bomb.  They'll be looking 3 cards deeper than you to get more counters, of which they run 15+ and many being free or 1cc.  I can understand if you think you can eot something useless to crack the standstill, let them keep their best 7, then you have a hand of remora, remora, duress, duress, fluster, black lotus, yawg will (or crypt/tinker assuming they don't just jace or hurkylls it anyway) and a stocked grave - then MAYBE you win.  But odds are, while you shaped that perfect hand, they drew into misstep, pierce, fow, ancestral, mindbreak, lightning bolt, mana drain as well.  It's not often that you'll draw that awesome hand in 7 turns and they drew 5 straight lands.  Like I said, bad luck can beat the deck - but in a competent pilots hands with average luck, I doubt any strategy can beat it consistently.  100 games played, not any opponent will take more than 35.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Given your claims (that Landstill is 65/35 vs all other decks), you should have no trouble looking over the last year and statistically finding Landstill to be the best performing deck of the year.

Go ahead check.

We are waiting.

Why play remora early against Landstill? What brokenness are you trying to contain from the landstill player? If you know the matchup, you obviously hold remora in hand until you want to protect a bomb and then lead with remora. Anyone who plays remora early against Landstill is obviously doing it all wrong and wasting what otherwise would be a potent tool if used correctly. Remora is a one mana cost bomb that the Landstill player has to deal with when you are ready to go off. The best the Landstill deck can hope for is to be able to misstep your remora. Pressuring the Landstill player to Mana Drain or Force your Remora is somewhere you want to be - fighting over 1 mana bombs that the Landstill player has to answer is somewhere you want to be. You use remora to screw up their ability to engage with you on the stack when you are ready to engage with landstill on the stack. You have a very pigeonholed understanding of remora and are failing to see that you should sequence it differently when you go up against landstill. This just underscores my point that a lot of people lose because they just don't understand the matchup.

Just to chime in and add to the obviousness against remora...

While you're tapping lands and moxen to pay for remora, landstill is dropping lands and manlands to beat and pay for counters.  While you're sculpting your bomb hand with duress lead, landstill is sculpting its 5 counter hand with jace and dismember.  By cracking standstill during eot before discard (which is obviously the best time to do it) you give them 10 cards from which to choose the best 7 counterwall to keep.  Once you decide to go off, you're going to need duress, flusterx2, FoW + blue and a bomb that consists of no more than 2 cards (lotus/yawgwill?) and even then have about a 10% chance of resolving your bomb.  I assume you keep paying for remora while trying to go off so you draw off all their counters....but than you have almost no mana to capitalize on your bomb anyway.  Maybe you are suggesting to crack eot and then fight over some fresh remoras...but they will get countered and then so will your bomb.

My point was being even if you DON'T play remora early and just hand sculpt under a standstill, they are doing the same thing...and when you try to play the remora, it's not going to resolve, nor will your bomb.  They'll be looking 3 cards deeper than you to get more counters, of which they run 15+ and many being free or 1cc.  I can understand if you think you can eot something useless to crack the standstill, let them keep their best 7, then you have a hand of remora, remora, duress, duress, fluster, black lotus, yawg will (or crypt/tinker assuming they don't just jace or hurkylls it anyway) and a stocked grave - then MAYBE you win.  But odds are, while you shaped that perfect hand, they drew into misstep, pierce, fow, ancestral, mindbreak, lightning bolt, mana drain as well.  It's not often that you'll draw that awesome hand in 7 turns and they drew 5 straight lands.  Like I said, bad luck can beat the deck - but in a competent pilots hands with average luck, I doubt any strategy can beat it consistently.  100 games played, not any opponent will take more than 35.

The caveat is that it has to be piloted by a competent pilot.  There are not many seasoned landstill pilots.  It doesn't win a ton of tourneys, because it isn't played in many tourneys.  It's a grueling deck to play and a mental puzzle in every decision.  Josh could attest to that.  It's easier to run shops and burp out your hand on turn 1 and not worry about interaction of your opponent...or drop mox orchard oath, or mull into bazaar, or do something else equally linear and broken.  Many decks like those can be piloted by a ten year old to victory, but landstill is tricky tto play.  Done right, in the right hands, I wager it will beat all other decks 65/35.  Tourney stats will never back that up, because there aren't enough competent landstill pilots in the US to round out a top 8.  There are tons of people willing to netdeck and sleeve up chewer dredge, martello shops, or grisel oath though.  They have a fairly simple and one-directional plan.  Landstill is too complicated for most to find success with.  As much as I wager landstill could go 65/35 vs a field, I'd also wager that if 3 other people played landstill at bloomberg, Josh would have still been #1 and the other 3 would have went 1-3-drop at best.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

While Credmond likes to think that I play vs bad big blue pilots or bad pilots in general, I can go through my tournament wins and compile a huge list of ringers that fell victom of landstill. These same blue pilots have been seeing me play it for years now.

To say that the numbers don't prove landstill to be 65/35 vs rest of field...is true. But I am the only one semi consistently representing landstill at events that knows what they are doing. There are others here and there, but for the most part that's not the case. I personally go into every matchup feeling in the advantage. Some matchups may be 65/35, others 55/45, some 75/25, but I can honestly tell you, when I have landstill sleeved up I do not feel like a dog in an match...

I value tournament wins pretty high on a vintage resumme to judge how well someone is at a given archetype. Credmond, you say you have been playing landstill since 07' I think you said...Have you had success? If not do you think it is you or the deck? Or a combination of you, the deck, and your build? Maybe your lack of success or ease of beating landstill, is because you aren't good at building or piloting, or your opponent isn't good at piloting it when you test vs it. This is not an easy deck to play and build properly...

Like I said I play some of the best blue mages in the US while winning some of these events. If you want to assume that they are bad players...well, quite simply you are making an ass out of yourself. If you want me to compile a list of ringers that I consider some of the best in the world I will. And if you really wantI will link you to my reports where I mention them.

[credmond]

These lists can also play 3 stoneforge and 1 batterskull sb as an option to fight fishy decks and shops...

Additionally my list ran tinker and BSC...so I had additional outs vs shop, fish, landstill, or just the oops I have 3 counters and tinker = GG

Yes the SB is completely wide open.  The maindeck alone can probably beat everything 3 times out of 4.  Add in sb cards, and you're easily looking at 9/10 vs every match.  I like adding in BSC/tinker since it plays a ridiculous number of counters to protect and 4x jace to put back the robot.  Not like it even NEEDS that to be unstoppable, but sure...might as well add an extra bazooka to the Abrams tank.

I'd challenge anyone to run a gauntlet against this deck and report their findings.  You'll find that, with a sample of 25+ games, you will not be able to win more than 1 out of 5 games with any matchup.  It crushes dredge, shops, fish, storm, control, and even random stuff.  I'd say it again, but I really don't need to.  Aww, what the heck...UNSTOPPABLE!!!!

I am confused are we talking about Bomberman or Landstill now???