GWB Beats

[Guli]

If your splashing for Acall/MM, why isn't time walk in that list?  time walk + bob or time walk + swing with lots of creatures, will more than likely win you more games than Acall will.  Just wondering why the Omission?

I am already pretty concerned about finding blue for recall, so far so good though. You will have hands were that time walk could have been a Teeg or Thalia with the awkward situation that you have no Noble, Sapphire or Lotus. You also do not want a Tropical in this deck because of BoB and Gaddock/Pridemage. A more interesting inclusion could be Demonic Consultation in my opinion.

[bluemage55]

Oh, Stony is in the 75, you bring him in versus specific decks like Tezz, Metalworker and decks that you think it will play a crucial roll like fast combo. You want the Kataki maindeck because like serra already explained, he hits moxes but he also increases the win percentage versus Workshop in general. There is already plenty of strong cards in the deck to fight combo. I just added Stony in side because the card really shuts down specific atchetypes that pop up.

Rod/Stony don’t just shut down specific archetypes.  In conjunction with an existing mana denial plan (Waste/Strip, Thalia), they’re brutal against every archetype but the mirror.

Also, considering that you run 4 Mental Misstep and 0 Goyfs, you have a weird way of showing that you’re concerned about Shops.  If Shops are something you actually want to deal with, then you should have Kataki and Rod.

The only missing mox is ruby, this means that you will have 2 mana on turn 1 a decent amount of times to start with a Thalia or Bob.

Turn 1 Thalia or Bob is not the same thing as turn 1 Thalia.  You’ve got only 4 copies of the effect and not enough card drawing that you can reliably cast one by turn 2.  On top of that, there’s the problem I’ve previously mentioned that you have no way of ensuring that Thalia isn’t countered or removed.

This isn’t unique to Thalia.  All aggro decks have this problem with most of their threats… and that’s why it’s imperative that you’re not depending on your synergies, merely benefiting from them.

[Guli]

Stony is not good versus MUD unless your actual plan has worked. Which means you get out your noble, pridemage, kataki and waste their mana to make kataki more effective. I can run Mental to improve my match versus blue, fish, beats because I run Kataki versus Shops. The only exception is Metalworker builds with Forgemaster, then you want Stony or Rod. This sounds a lot like SB tech to me...

I don't think you need Stony to do your mana denial plan with Thalia and Wasteland. The same thing is accomplished with Kataki.

I run moxes, to speed up things (control) and build up mana (spheres). You could say that I need to run additional acceleration, but I don't think that is necessary.

[Prospero]

Guys, calm down.  Let's be respectful of other's views here, even if we disagree with them.

[Guli]

Oh I am calm ^_^

I am explaining and justifying my configuration.

Mental Misstep is a must and is only dead versus Workshop. But the deck is well prepared to cover for those dead draws in game 1 (well not entirely dead, they do catch ring and vault on occasion). It is what makes this deck competitive and hard to deal with.

The creatures that I have chosen are all of super good quality and all give me card advantage in one way or the other. Dark Confidant is the most direct one in this regard. Noble is more mana and glue than it is a creature.

I have played this list versus Ritual/DDay and TPS, fast combo decks and it has done very well. The deck is very well positioned to outplay Workshop. Bob is what pushes the deck to a different level when it comes to control and attrition wars. But the interesting part is, this is still a beatdown deck. I think this pile (or something close, you can do small tweaks) is the strongest option for beat down at this moment.**

I didn't reach this list in 1 day, I made a huge sidestep and played rangers, exploring a totally different avenue, in the end I decided that I can get away with cutting vials, playing with full set of teeg and thalia and still have great match ups.

**One note though, Cavern of Souls has been on my radar (surprise surprise) and that card will probably make me want to design an aggro control starting from scratch.

[bax]

Stony is not good versus MUD unless your actual plan has worked. Which means you get out your noble, pridemage, kataki and waste their mana to make kataki more effective. I can run Mental to improve my match versus blue, fish, beats because I run Kataki versus Shops. The only exception is Metalworker builds with Forgemaster, then you want Stony or Rod. This sounds a lot like SB tech to me...

I don't think you need Stony to do your mana denial plan with Thalia and Wasteland. The same thing is accomplished with Kataki.

I run moxes, to speed up things (control) and build up mana (spheres). You could say that I need to run additional acceleration, but I don't think that is necessary.

Guli, we both know we have played a great deal GWx variants although in very different environment, i play a lot in real life tournaments, you do a lot of on-line play on cockatrice. For this i think we do respect each other.

Often we have disagreed on this forum on build choices, but i feel this time the deck you have posted became a very competitive one - also from my perspective.

I think the deck can be tweaked further - but the base is solid.

Some of the tweaks i have in mind are more of a personal nature - rather than general stuff - such as:
1. i do not want Gaddock number 4 i prefer a sylvan library in that slot that allows me to pick my draw and to arrange cards in the best possible order so that i maximize my Dark confidant draws
2. I would have MM in my maindeck only if i were to play several different drop @1 threats such as Grafdigger's Cage or Aether Vial to protect my strong play vs my oppo misstep or pierce.
3. I would pack couple of Tarmo in my maindeck in any case, with the current shift of meta they are becoming stronger and stronger option every day.
4. i would play less mox and some ESG instead they avoid spheres and let us cast that spell the opponent was not expecting. Not something to under-estimate when you play a deck that easy to "read" for you opponents.

There are probably other personal point of view that can be applied, but as i mentioned early the base is solid.

After the personal tweaks we all have to remember this: GWx is a deck that is stronger when it is tweaked to fight a given metagame, it requires some patience skills and good understanding of the race concept to be successful.

It is impossible to build the "best" GW deck in general, it is possible only to build the "best" GW for a given metagame.

The metagame that counts it is the one you are playing next sunday, and only that one, because you wanna drive back home with some prizes in the pockets !

[Guli]

    if you want good match ups
    you need Bob vs control
    you need white vs combo
    you need green vs aggro and shop
    that is the essence of things

Ok that was a little song for you guys.

I think you are making good points. I agree with most, though I would not dare to cut Gaddock to 3 right now. People will be trying out Miracle cards and those go well with Jace and Fow will be in there for sure. I also think some will try to use Gush (listen to the latest podcast of Smmenen http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44152.0)

Yes, Tarms are hot, and that is the reason I like 2x Ooze maindeck

[bluemage55]

Stony is not good versus MUD unless your actual plan has worked. Which means you get out your noble, pridemage, kataki and waste their mana to make kataki more effective. I can run Mental to improve my match versus blue, fish, beats because I run Kataki versus Shops. The only exception is Metalworker builds with Forgemaster, then you want Stony or Rod. This sounds a lot like SB tech to me...

Shop is not your only matchup.  Rod is good in general; there's a reason it's a pillar.

I don't think you need Stony to do your mana denial plan with Thalia and Wasteland. The same thing is accomplished with Kataki.

You cannot reliably find, resolve, and stick Thalia + Kataki in most games.  More likely, you will manage to get Thalia, or Kataki, but not both.  Adding Rod to the mix only increases the consistency of your mana denial plan, and independently it's superior to Kataki in more matchups.

[bax]

Starting on my classical GW list (here: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7811&iddeck=56871 - that got me so many results this seasons with 3 finals one of which was a win and 4 more top8 out of 10 tournaments -  and inspired by the last list Guli posted plus the comments i made few post above yesterday i decided to bring into my list the confidants.

What i came up with was the below:

//Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Gavony Township  (yes, you read well!)

//Artifact Mana (6)
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
 
//Creatures (27)
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant

//Powerful Stuff (5)
1 Ancestrall Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Swords to Plowshares

----Sideboard---
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Mental Misstep
3 Nature's Claim
1 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction

The deck is very similar to Guli's list, but very different at the same time.
I know that in my meta the density of wasteland and deck that pack up land destruction is quite high, i know i will not be facing dredge. The other decks in my meta (apart the ones with wasteland such as Monobrown, Bant etc.) are likely to be Snapcontrol (either gift or Confidant based), or Storm both Gush and Ritual based, few Oath and Bomberman will be there as well. The best players will play either monobrown or snapcontrol or bant. Snapcontrol is the worst of my match up especially post side because they pack in both pyroclasm, darkblast and massacre.
My meta prediction were quite right apart that i have seen more EtW than ToA around in the Storm deck and there was only one Oath out of 25 participants.

Based on the above considerations i decided that i do not wanted to mana screw ever, i wanted to cast a threat with CC2 in turn 1 as often as possible and i wanted a way to get our of pyroclasm, but even more importantly out of Darkblast that litterally kills my deck in few turns.

Few considerations on specific choices:
1. In the past if i was not playing Stony/Rod i usually was packing Aether Vials. This time i decided to follow Guli's way and pack neither or !
2. I really cannot play with 4x the same legendary creature - i hate being stuck with stuff i cannot cast. so kataki, Gaddock and Thalia all in 3x
3. i did not want to do myself three damages when revealing an ESG with confidant so i removed them and put in the lotus petal and extra lands
4. having ended up with 22 lands (!!!!) + 6 artifact mana accelerators i decided that i needed to make good use of those lands and removed the Tarmogoys in favour of the Knights of the Reliquary. They will also allow me to fix mana and fetch some 1x lands.
5. now that i can fetch 1x lands made sense include the Gavony Township. It is better than Mikaeus because it does the same thing one turn earlier. doesn't need to be recharged, can be tutored with KotR and usually after 2 activation you can swarm your opponent to death. I loved the land.
6. I ended up with a GWB list with 1 life from the loam and a sylvan library. Then while writing my deck list i thought to myself "why not remove those two for Ancestral Recall and time walk ? surely they would have a bigger imp ac ton the game if draw those!) and so i did end up with the ;list above.

To make the long tournament story short:

Turn 1: SnapGift - Lost 1-2. Largely because i misplayed an Av en in Game 1 and that costed me that game. Should i won game 1 then it would have been a different story.

Turn 2: DarkSnap Control - Won 2-0: Game 1 won after a Kort destroyed his manabase, in Game 2 we both mull to 5 but i have a land destruction and he only has 1 land ...

Turn 3: Bomberman - Won 2-0: won both games easy thanks to Confidants card advantage and Aven played the right time to negate tutors.

Turn 4: Monobrown - Won 2-0: First game won it because he got greedy and attacked my manabase (unknowing i have more lands he could possibly destroy), Second game he started very strong with Sphere, 2x revoker calling both noble hierarch and Qasali, but a plowshare and a  natures claim and then Kataki cleared the board given he only had workshop in play!

Turn 5: I.D.

Quarter finals: Landstill (with Gush!) - Won 2-1: First game i start with early Thalia, then Gaddock before he could go off with gush, Second i lose to turn 1 Jace, Third game is surreal as he keeps with two lands and 5 counter, i mull to 6 and keep 3x lands, 1 Hierarch, 1 Thalia 1 Kotr. I will go off with land + hierarch, he land go, i ll cast one threat per turn but he will counter, in the meantime hierach and his fetch will bring him down, when he finally draw a tutor i will have an Aven and he will not have any more counters and from there GG in few turns. The funny thing is that we both draw into lands for several turns with nothing else going on ...

Semifinals: SnapGift, the same of turn 1 in Swiss: 2-0: Game 1 he keeps a very strong hand with Mox sapphire, lotus, crypt, intuition, hurkyl, ToA, Yawgmoth ... Bascially he can close in turn 1 .... but i won the dice and start with Savannah, Mox Jet, Thalia - i will win few turns later after he went to discards several times. Game 2 we battle a bit more but then Gaddock, Thalia and Aven keep him under control, when he is ready to go off i have mistepp and surgical in hand.

Final: won by drop and easy split 50%/50% for the prizes

Overall i must say i was impressed by the confidants (which i knew would be a superstar), but also by the KotR, they are deadly machine in Vintage too ! Despite the fact they seems superslow in fact they can shine in a  deck with tons of lands and they are more of a threat to a multitude of match up than Tarmogoyf.

[Guli]

First, nice one! Congratulations, it makes me proud as a fellow GW pilot.

Yes, Dark Confidant is worth the splash. What I did was also add Vampiric tutor and maybe Demonic Tutor is also worth it. These cards are certainly extremely powerful and are on color. I did cut sapphire and the blue to avoid problems. You don't always get an active noble and you don't want to fetch up Tropical with Thalia, Bob and Gaddock in your deck.

I am running 17 lands! I understand that you have the KotR but 22 lands seems too much. This eats slots in your deck and you risk being flooded and there are no Jace to fix this issue. Maybe I have been pushing it a little but I do run 4 Misstep to protect my Noble, a key card with low lands in a deck.

Thirdly, Ooze is a great cards against snapcontrol but also great against basically anything out there. It is a card that single handily wins races against aggro, cuts crucible of the world and welders, wins g1 in some lines were you should normally lose to dredge in game one, grows nicely into a big clock after control countered your initial threats. I see Ooze and Bob as the 'plan B' or 'recovery' kind of cards. They can be played first too, but usually you want to open with Thalia unless you know it is MUD for example, Bob wants to get going asap there. Once they deal (or not deal) with Thalia, Pridemage and Teeg, you put up the pressure with Bob and Ooze. I would play Ooze 2x main deck if I were you, it is an important card to have around in various match ups. Maybe you can do a 2/2 split with KotR and cut a land.

Thalia can have a game ending impact when you go first. In your report you even mentioned one example of this. Thalia factor has to be respected by them when deciding to keep a hand that looks good but could lose horribly to a turn 1 Thalia. Especially when we are follow it up with turn 2 Bob and maybe a waste effect. You can hardly lose at that point. And this happens with a Cavern of Souls now guys, so in these lines Force of Will is irrelevant. (human=type) I never mind having 2 Thalia in my hand because the effect can be so devastating for them, they need to kill her and only to see another come in as a backup. Gaddock has a similar effect and I expect to see more cards that will get hit by Teeg.

Recall and Time Walk are probably worth the risk especially in a list with 4 Noble and 3 Knight with a Tropical and Sapphire. Be careful with Cavern of Souls though you are stretching things too far then imo (if you intend to use it). I have chosen to make more use of the black tutor power and stick with 3 colours and sometimes cast Misstep with a Noble. No big deal though, I gladly pay up 2 life to counter that early recall or protect my stuff from removal. Sometimes it is stronger to tutor for a key winning card than to draw top 3 unknowns

[bax]

I am running 17 lands! I understand that you have the KotR but 22 lands seems too much. This eats slots in your deck and you risk being flooded and there are no Jace to fix this issue. Maybe I have been pushing it a little but I do run 4 Misstep to protect my Noble, a key card with low lands in a deck.

Thanks Guli.

My golden rule when playing decks that do not manipulate (i.e. without brainstorm, jace, tutors etc.) is to play 30 mana equivalent. so in my past tournaments i never went below 20 lands, 3 esg, 3 artifact mana & 4 hierarch. This time i opted for 22 lands and 6 artifact accelerator and 4 hierarchy, then i have added the Gavony Township bringing the total mana count to 31.
I must say that playing against deck without wastelands i have always sided out one Savannah. I rather that than be sorry short of mana and have to mulligan. Especially with the Confidants i rather reveal a lot of lands and get little damage rather than draw into redundant threats. this Saves me from having to run misstep maindeck, i have no threat turn one that go under mi step or pierce apart hierarch that for me is not that critical having hihg land count - but often my opponent think it is a critical play for me and counter it!

Both ways are valid in my view!

Thirdly, Ooze is a great cards against snapcontrol but also great against basically anything out there. It is a card that single handily wins races against aggro, cuts crucible of the world and welders, wins g1 in some lines were you should normally lose to dredge in game one, grows nicely into a big clock after control countered your initial threats. I see Ooze and Bob as the 'plan B' or 'recovery' kind of cards. They can be played first too, but usually you want to open with Thalia unless you know it is MUD for example, Bob wants to get going asap there. Once they deal (or not deal) with Thalia, Pr idemage and Teeg, you put up the pressure with Bob and Ooze. I would play Ooze 2x main deck if I were you, it is an important card to have around in various match ups. Maybe you can do a 2/2 split with KotR and cut a land.

yes i agree, but not in my meta, we have not seen Dredge ever since Picke69 from GErmany passed by Milan so unless Richard shows up i do not have to be afraid of Dredge match up ! In Annecy mid may the story will be different, because in a 400 people tournament you have to account for at least one dredge match up - and i will tune my choices for that event.

And this happens with a Cavern of Souls now guys, so in these lines Force of Will is irrelevant. (human=type) I never mind having 2 Thalia in my hand because the effect can be so devastating for them, they need to kill her and only to see another come in as a backup. Gaddock has a similar effect and I expect to see more cards that will get hit by Teeg.

I have to admit playing 3x thalia often i had two in hand ! This is a non problem as you said it rightly Thalia will be the first target of removal so playing it once more immediately after is a good thing ! But I do not want to end up with 3 in hand and 1 on the board !!!

Recall and Time Walk are probably worth the risk especially in a list with 4 Noble and 3 Knight with a Tropical and Sapphire. Be careful with Cavern of Souls though you are stretching things too far then imo (if you intend to use it). I have chosen to make more use of the black tutor power and stick with 3 colours and sometimes cast Misstep with a Noble. No big deal though, I gladly pay up 2 life to counter that early recall or protect my stuff from removal. Sometimes it is stronger to tutor for a key winning card than to draw top 3 unknowns

Vampiric tutor is card and tempo disadvantage can't really optimize its usage here, Demonic tutor is slow. Smmenen suggest demonic consultation, which i agree is the fastest tutor for this kind of deck, but i still think that draw 3 cards (which are often dudes) is stronger!

About Cavern of Soul the problem is that it do not protect Gaddock (not Kataki, but that is a non issue). Calling either human or wizard you cover the whole deck (including KotR) worth thinking - but not more than in 2x.

Guli, are you coming to Annecy ? I will be there for both the Legacy and Vintage tournaments

[Guli]

I still think you are too high on lands. It is simply not necessary to run that many lands. Even with 17 I sometimes get flooded...

Ooze is not mainly for dredge. Dredge needs to be answered with real dredge hate in any case, Ooze is just a good way to lock them out indefinitely and kill them fast. Sometimes you can wasteland bazaar and get a fast ooze going in game 1. If they can't keep on the dredging and pressure, ooze gets there. Nevertheless I still pack 3-4 Cage and 2-3 additional dredge hate in SB. Ooze is that card that breaks the game versus players who are playing the aggro role. The life gain and big body will win you the game! It also shuts down Tarmogoyf, Grim Lavamancer and Bazaar/Re-animator combo's. I urge you to try Ooze maindeck, we have tested and played and concluded he earned the 2 slots permanently.

Vampiric Tutor into Strip Mine can be devastating for an opponent relying on a basic land. Vampiric into a Cavern of Souls means you will prevent a HUGE tempo loss against mana drain or other denial spells. It breaks the game state. I can not get these powerful game changing cards with Consultation and I play 4 of the cards I really want and need already so there is no point in tutoring for them. I usually want Cavern, Strip, Ooze, Loam or Bob with Vampiric. I find Demonic Tutor a bit too much mana and at sorcery speed it gets harder so I don't use it for the moment. (walks into counters, hard to cast with spheres, loss of mana)

I am not going to Bom in Annecy.  But my deck is...

[brianpk80]

Guildmages are a good option to consider for a mana-heavy build.  A single Azorius Guildmage on the board for instance serves as insurance against the pitfalls of mana-flood. 

[bluemage55]

Guildmages are a good option to consider for a mana-heavy build.  A single Azorius Guildmage on the board for instance serves as insurance against the pitfalls of mana-flood.  

Doesn't it make far more sense to trim down your mana and ccs/color requirements so that you have increased threat density?

I'm pretty sure that most aggro decks are better off running 26 mana sources and 34 cheaper threats, than 30 mana sources and 30 more expensive threats.

[bax]

Doesn't it make far more sense to trim down your mana and ccs/color requirements so that you have increased threat density?

In reality yes and no. This deck doesn't cantrip, doesn't shuffle that much nor control the topdeck at all with Sensei nor Jace. You want to be damn sure you will be able to cast your threat and to do so you need mana.

I went probably overboard with 22 lands in fact i was boarding out 1 Savannah in every game post side against non brown decks. So i am safe to say i can go down one land and add one ooze. I would not shrink the mana base any more than that.

I'm pretty sure that most aggro decks are better off running 26 mana sources and 34 cheaper threats, than 30 mana sources and 30 more expensive threats.

Yes, for an aggro deck you are pretty right. But this is meant to be a prison deck not an aggro deck, not counting the hierarch the right amount of mana is between 24 and 26.

[xouman]

I've talked with White Thrash players, and they see strip lands as business, not mana sources. So, they don't feel they are playing 27/28 mana sources, but 21 + some strips that could give mana in some scenarios. Still, 21 mana is too much for a deck with a low curve. Althought you want 2 mana on T1, you don't really need more than 3 mana. But again, so many moxen could be a problem against Stony Silence or Null rod.

Still, having too much mana in a beats deck annoys me. It's fustrating to keep drawing lands when you don't have the match under control. That makes Dark confidant too much important for this deck.

[Guli]

19 lands is the normal count in GW beats. At the moment I play 17 + 1 Horizon Canopy (because I actually got worried reading your posts so I added a cantrip land). Without 4 Bob and 4 Misstep, I would also play an other land going up to 19. White Trash players? They don't have Noble or Bob, their strategy plays out totally differently.


http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=G/W%20Haterator&format=Vintage


Just check those GW decks and see how many lands they run...

[bax]

19 lands is the normal count in GW beats. At the moment I play 17 + 1 Horizon Canopy (because I actually got worried reading your posts so I added a cantrip land). Without 4 Bob and 4 Misstep, I would also play an other land going up to 19. White Trash players? They don't have Noble or Bob, their strategy plays out totally differently.


http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=G/W%20Haterator&format=Vintage


Just check those GW decks and see how many lands they run...

Guli, 4 of those lists it's me! Two others are my friends bringing my list

I think i know what i am talking about. Those list have 19 lands + 3/4 ESG = 22/23 straight Marna sources. In my last tournament i swapped 3 ESG for 3 lands and that is how i ended up with 22 lands! On the hindsight, swapping 3 ESG for 2 lands should be enough.

[Guli]

19 lands is the normal count in GW beats. At the moment I play 17 + 1 Horizon Canopy (because I actually got worried reading your posts so I added a cantrip land). Without 4 Bob and 4 Misstep, I would also play an other land going up to 19. White Trash players? They don't have Noble or Bob, their strategy plays out totally differently.


http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=G/W%20Haterator&format=Vintage


Just check those GW decks and see how many lands they run...

Guli, 4 of those lists it's me! Two others are my friends bringing my list

I think i know what i am talking about. Those list have 19 lands + 3/4 ESG = 22/23 straight Marna sources. In my last tournament i swapped 3 ESG for 3 lands and that is how i ended up with 22 lands! On the hindsight, swapping 3 ESG for 2 lands should be enough.

Then stop talking about playing 22 lands and cut it to 19 Mana source can be higher but land count nah..

[bax]

Then stop talking about playing 22 lands and cut it to 19 Mana source can be higher but land count nah..

No Guli - that will only happen with 3 ESG in the deck. In my view if i play the Confidants i should play lands in place of the ESG.

At the moment i am incliined to like the same list -1 land +1 Ooze .

[Guli]

Then stop talking about playing 22 lands and cut it to 19 Mana source can be higher but land count nah..

No Guli - that will only happen with 3 ESG in the deck. In my view if i play the Confidants i should play lands in place of the ESG.

At the moment i am incliined to like the same list -1 land +1 Ooze .

The point of Dark Confidant is to see lands anyway. I think it is fair enough that you decided to cut 1 land and add Ooze. With 3 Knight I do like Karakas, but I would cut canopy and Township to add 2x Ooze maindeck. I think you can rely on 20 lands, 6 acceleration, 4 Noble and 4 Dark Confidant to get you mana.

I also believe in Vintage, in any meta, Mental Misstep should be 4x maindeck in GWBu beats. When you play mirror, you want to get those Noble and waste their land to get a lead on mana and resources (tempo boost wins games). Also when people play 4x Preordain they are digging for lands sometimes. If I have a Cavern, mox and Thalia I usually counter that first spell like Preordain, Brainstorm or Ponder. This is also a very important tempo boost. The times I countered that early Recall with Misstep are priceless. Some people keep a hand with sapphire recall and Misstep punishes that. Mid game Misstep protects your bears from spot removal. Yes it is a dead card versus Workshop but I know how that match up works out with Noble, moxes, pridemage, wastelands, kataki and swords to plowshares.

Also, the value of Thalia is underestimated again here. The card has the potential to seal a game very fast and effectively. Again, it is a matter of punishing the opponent for being greedy. Sometimes they keep a strong looking hand but it requires non interaction. A Thalia changes up the entire evaluation of their keep and mulls... You rather want more lands and moxes than a lot of broken shenanigans and low lands against Thalia. I would advise you to play 2 Cavern at least main deck. A card that also changes a lot of lines of play.

[bax]

The point of Dark Confidant is to see lands anyway. I think it is fair enough that you decided to cut 1 land and add Ooze. With 3 Knight I do like Karakas, but I would cut canopy and Township to add 2x Ooze maindeck. I think you can rely on 20 lands, 6 acceleration, 4 Noble and 4 Dark Confidant to get you mana.

During last test session on Thursday i tried cutting to 20 lands. Unfortunately it increases drastically my mulligan %. So i will not be doing that. This deck has also an high risk of color screw, can't afford to have also mana screw issues.

I also believe in Vintage, in any meta, Mental Misstep should be 4x maindeck in GWBu beats. When you play mirror, you want to get those Noble and waste their land to get a lead on mana and resources (tempo boost wins games). Also when people play 4x Preordain they are digging for lands sometimes. If I have a Cavern, mox and Thalia I usually counter that first spell like Preordain, Brainstorm or Ponder. This is also a very important tempo boost. The times I countered that early Recall with Misstep are priceless. Some people keep a hand with sapphire recall and Misstep punishes that. Mid game Misstep protects your bears from spot removal. Yes it is a dead card versus Workshop but I know how that match up works out with Noble, moxes, pridemage, wastelands, kataki and swords to plowshares.

I have been thinking that MM should be maindeck and it was not a strong sideboard plan. But for the time being I'm liking it, too many dead match ups for that card. Similarly i moved the cages to the sideboard.

Also, the value of Thalia is underestimated again here. The card has the potential to seal a game very fast and effectively. Again, it is a matter of punishing the opponent for being greedy. Sometimes they keep a strong looking hand but it requires non interaction. A Thalia changes up the entire evaluation of their keep and mulls... You rather want more lands and moxes than a lot of broken shenanigans and low lands against Thalia. I would advise you to play 2 Cavern at least main deck. A card that also changes a lot of lines of play.

Two caverns i am planning to play yes - if i get my preorder before Annecy - Thalia is a a real star and might even put the 4Th Thalia in place of a Knight.

P.S. township gets you out of pyroclasm, darkblast., massacre etc etc . I am not removing it.

[brianpk80]

Guildmages are a good option to consider for a mana-heavy build.  A single Azorius Guildmage on the board for instance serves as insurance against the pitfalls of mana-flood.  

Doesn't it make far more sense to trim down your mana and ccs/color requirements so that you have increased threat density?

I'm pretty sure that most aggro decks are better off running 26 mana sources and 34 cheaper threats, than 30 mana sources and 30 more expensive threats.

The information I offered assumes that the player has chosen a mana-heavy build for whatever reason.  You are asking a question beyond the scope of what I wrote. 

[Guli]

During last test session on Thursday i tried cutting to 20 lands. Unfortunately it increases drastically my mulligan %. So i will not be doing that. This deck has also an high risk of color screw, can't afford to have also mana screw issues.

I just don't believe this purely based on my own empirical observations. I think you are taking a Mulligan for hands that you could keep. For example, would you keep these hands:

Hand 1: Noble, Noble, Misstep, Fetch, Gaddock, Thalia, Stp

Hand 2: Savannah, Bob, Jet, Pridemage, Vampiric, Safekeeper, Stp

Hand 3: Fetch, Strip, Gaddock, Bob, Misstep, Ooze, Loam

Hand 4: Wasteland, Wasteland, Pearl, Thalia, Noble, Ooze, Pridemage

Hand 5: Bayou, Fetch, Noble, Thalia, Bob, Kataki, Stp

[bax]

Hand 1: Noble, Noble, Misstep, Fetch, Gaddock, Thalia, Stp

On the play no, on the draw no. You know you lose from early darkblast with this hand right ?

Hand 2: Savannah, Bob, Jet, Pridemage, Vampiric, Safekeeper, Stp

Yes. Very strong hand.

Hand 3: Fetch, Strip, Gaddock, Bob, Misstep, Ooze, Loam

On the play no, on the draw yes only becaseu of loam. I do not play loam, i do play ancestral on his place, so if it was my deck i would keep also on the play.

Hand 4: Wasteland, Wasteland, Pearl, Thalia, Noble, Ooze, Pridemage

No. You land an early thalia and if he land a stony silence/ ancient grudge/ gorilla shaman you have likely lost.

Hand 5: Bayou, Fetch, Noble, Thalia, Bob, Kataki, Stp

Yes although it is not a great hand and you have to hope that your Bob sticks.


I think i play in a meta with more wasteland than you do.

[Guli]

Interesting. Only hand 3 is a clear mull to me if I am blind.

I use to think more cautiously like you are, but I learned that you just stick it up there and play active. In the long run this pays off more. They need to waste your land AND kill your bob or else you just are leading...

Obviously I get hands with 2 lands too. But I took some sample hands in which I present low land count but option to play active. My guess is that you get a lot of hands with 2-3 lands AND wastelands. This leaves you with 3 threats? And noble is not a threat really.. more like glue.

[bax]

Interesting. Only hand 3 is a clear mull to me if I am blind.

I use to think more cautiously like you are, but I learned that you just stick it up there and play active. In the long run this pays off more. They need to waste your land AND kill your bob or else you just are leading...

Obviously I get hands with 2 lands too. But I took some sample hands in which I present low land count but option to play active. My guess is that you get a lot of hands with 2-3 lands AND wastelands. This leaves you with 3 threats? And noble is not a threat really.. more like glue.

Honestly the best hands you get are the ones were you can get out a Gaddock, a Thalia or a Bob in turn one on the play ! During the last tournaments my mulls have been caused by not much threats - yes. But nothing you can fix with a mulls, especially when you know that even in 5 cards you are going to get enough mana to restart.

With more lands you can afford to have your noble countered without having to protect them. Heck ... i could even afford to play duals in place of the basic!

P.S. i am not disagreeing with your line of thought, i just do not think is the only one

[Guli]

Interesting. Only hand 3 is a clear mull to me if I am blind.

I use to think more cautiously like you are, but I learned that you just stick it up there and play active. In the long run this pays off more. They need to waste your land AND kill your bob or else you just are leading...

Obviously I get hands with 2 lands too. But I took some sample hands in which I present low land count but option to play active. My guess is that you get a lot of hands with 2-3 lands AND wastelands. This leaves you with 3 threats? And noble is not a threat really.. more like glue.

Honestly the best hands you get are the ones were you can get out a Gaddock, a Thalia or a Bob in turn one on the play ! During the last tournaments my mulls have been caused by not much threats - yes. But nothing you can fix with a mulls, especially when you know that even in 5 cards you are going to get enough mana to restart.

With more lands you can afford to have your noble countered without having to protect them. Heck ... i could even afford to play duals in place of the basic!

P.S. i am not disagreeing with your line of thought, i just do not think is the only one

I think the best hands are Cavern+Mox and all the rest doesn't matter. Probably will enable a turn 1 bob or thalia.

[bluemage55]

Guildmages are a good option to consider for a mana-heavy build.  A single Azorius Guildmage on the board for instance serves as insurance against the pitfalls of mana-flood.  

Doesn't it make far more sense to trim down your mana and ccs/color requirements so that you have increased threat density?

I'm pretty sure that most aggro decks are better off running 26 mana sources and 34 cheaper threats, than 30 mana sources and 30 more expensive threats.

The information I offered assumes that the player has chosen a mana-heavy build for whatever reason.  You are asking a question beyond the scope of what I wrote.  

The point I'm making is that there shouldn't be any reason for a player to choose a mana-heavy build for their aggro deck.  The information you offered is similar to "If you decide not to run power, consider using Nimble Mongoose"; simply put, your suggestion has little relevance in a discussion about building/playing a competitive GWB beats deck.

A mana-heavy beatdown deck is a fundamentally flawed concept.  Advice on how to improve that is completely missing the elephant in the room, which is that the deck shouldn't be mana-heavy in the first place.

During last test session on Thursday i tried cutting to 20 lands. Unfortunately it increases drastically my mulligan %. So i will not be doing that. This deck has also an high risk of color screw, can't afford to have also mana screw issues.

Cutting junk like Karakas and Gavony Township would help significantly with the color screw issues.  So would cutting blue.  Improved threat density and consistency far outweighs the benefit of those suboptimal inclusions.

[bax]

During last test session on Thursday i tried cutting to 20 lands. Unfortunately it increases drastically my mulligan %. So i will not be doing that. This deck has also an high risk of color screw, can't afford to have also mana screw issues.

Cutting junk like Karakas and Gavony Township would help significantly with the color screw issues.  So would cutting blue.  Improved threat density and consistency far outweighs the benefit of those suboptimal inclusions.

Look i agree about the Township, to some extent, but if you do not get the importance of Karakas in a deck with Knight and 9 legendary creature i will not entertain this conversation with you any longer.

I am not even going to discuss ancestral and time walk.