[m13] Talrand, Sky Summoner

[serracollector]

Talrand, Sky Summoner
2UU
Legend - Merfolk Wizard
2/2

Whenever you cast a sorcery or instant spell, put a 2/2 blue Drake creature token with flying into the battlefield.


Obvious implications in Landstill, in any blue control/aggro deck.  Provides efficient blockers for the new creature decks in rise.  Seems better than Sower of temptation in most circumstances.  Works really well in deck with 4 preordain/Gush.  Making a small army, swing win, should not be too hard.  Kinda like a slow tendrils.  Discuss.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I thought I liked this guy until I remembered Jace costs 2UU.  In most situations, you'd rather just have jace.  As a combo card, tendrils/warrens is just better.  As a silver bullet, tinker is better.  I suppose as a sb answer to fish for big blue, but that's it.

[serracollector]

Why does he have to replace jace?  Why not sower of temptation in SB?  Why not warrens, so no need to splash red?  Also, you don't need to reach any "x storm" to win, you can gush into lands (which happens often for gush players) and you still get at least 1 2/2 flyer.  It doesn't need to win immediately  but still helps in those stall scenerios that happen in gush decks quite often. 

[Bill Copes]

Why does he have to replace jace?  Why not sower of temptation in SB?  Why not warrens, so no need to splash red?  Also, you don't need to reach any "x storm" to win, you can gush into lands (which happens often for gush players) and you still get at least 1 2/2 flyer.  It doesn't need to win immediately  but still helps in those stall scenerios that happen in gush decks quite often. 

Articulating/agreeing:   Think of it as the Dryad version of Empty the Warrens.  This thing is a storm card on legs.  Getting UU2 is nothing for a gush deck.  It's going to see play.

[Klep]

Why does he have to replace jace? 

Already discussed this in the Misthollow Griffin thread.  There's only so many 2UU spells you can run in a deck without causing yourself problems, and so your deck has to have a reason why it can either support this in addition to Jace, or a reason why this is better than Jace in that deck.

[DubDub]

Why does he have to replace jace?  Why not sower of temptation in SB?  Why not warrens, so no need to splash red?  Also, you don't need to reach any "x storm" to win, you can gush into lands (which happens often for gush players) and you still get at least 1 2/2 flyer.  It doesn't need to win immediately  but still helps in those stall scenerios that happen in gush decks quite often. 

Articulating/agreeing:   Think of it as the Dryad version of Empty the Warrens.  This thing is a storm card on legs.  Getting UU2 is nothing for a gush deck.  It's going to see play.

Ahhh... it's pretty easy to do turn 1 Dryad off a Mox and then grow it over time.  Getting this guy down is usually going to be turn 3, which wastes mucho tempo.  Also, it's legendary, so you don't have lines of play analogous to Dryad-Dryad.

Is it playable?  Yes.
Does it significantly improve the decks it would go into?  Not in my opinion.

[Bill Copes]

Why does he have to replace jace?  Why not sower of temptation in SB?  Why not warrens, so no need to splash red?  Also, you don't need to reach any "x storm" to win, you can gush into lands (which happens often for gush players) and you still get at least 1 2/2 flyer.  It doesn't need to win immediately  but still helps in those stall scenerios that happen in gush decks quite often. 

Articulating/agreeing:   Think of it as the Dryad version of Empty the Warrens.  This thing is a storm card on legs.  Getting UU2 is nothing for a gush deck.  It's going to see play.

Ahhh... it's pretty easy to do turn 1 Dryad off a Mox and then grow it over time.  Getting this guy down is usually going to be turn 3, which wastes mucho tempo.  Also, it's legendary, so you don't have lines of play analogous to Dryad-Dryad.

Is it playable?  Yes.
Does it significantly improve the decks it would go into?  Not in my opinion.

I was just suggesting to think of it as a storm-permanent, not that it is directly comparable to the function of Dryad.  My bad for brevity and lack of clarity.  Zee iphones aren't fun for paragraphs.

[vaughnbros]

You don't need red or double black in a storm list with this card, also you don't need to storm out in a single turn.  The real question I'm seeing is why not run this as a singleton in Gush gro lists and the like? If its not answered by a counterspell you can expect to at least get value out of it and if its not answered at all your going to win handily.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Articulating/agreeing:   Think of it as the Dryad version of Empty the Warrens.  This thing is a storm card on legs.  Getting UU2 is nothing for a gush deck.  It's going to see play.

I disagree on the grounds that you have to cast this BEFORE you play the spells, not after.  It's like an Empty the Warrens that wants to be cast before you cast your Rits/Tutors/etc.  To me, that makes it inferior.

[Bill Copes]

Articulating/agreeing:   Think of it as the Dryad version of Empty the Warrens.  This thing is a storm card on legs.  Getting UU2 is nothing for a gush deck.  It's going to see play.

I disagree on the grounds that you have to cast this BEFORE you play the spells, not after.  It's like an Empty the Warrens that wants to be cast before you cast your Rits/Tutors/etc.  To me, that makes it inferior.

Yep -- that's why I mentioned the dryad comparison.  You also need to land that first before you cast spells.

Inferior is the wrong way to think about this.  ETW is an all in on one turn card, more or less.  The usage here would be spread out over a few turns.    I feel like this is a more of an aggro-control card (Emphasis on control/manipulation).  Land this thing, have a counter war, manipulate your library, take your time.  Have an army of 2/2s.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Land this thing, have a counter war

I think you have that backwards.  This guy would prompt a counter war.  He's clearly solid once resolved, but so is Jace.  For 2UU, I can make 2/2s or Brainstorm every turn.  Unlike EtW, Talrand doesn't effectively read "win next turn ignoring Mana Drain and Force of Will."

[Daenyth]

The climate right now is bad for this. Spot removal is at an all time high, including maindeck. If you spend 4 mana to resolve this and they kill it at your end of turn, are you going to have enough resources to fight over it? And if you do, you get a 2/2. Not that impressive.

[serracollector]

Remember this is also a wizard.  I personally was testing it in  a shell with Cavern of Souls, Delver, and Snapcasters, with 3 fire/ice, 3 lightning bolts, and 4 preordain.  Finding this guy and resolving him was not hard, then after that I was consistently making 2-3 tokens a turn using filters/snaps/burn.  Its worked rather well.

[brianpk80]

Playing this creature means playing a new deck so an analysis should go further than "Is it 'better' than another card with the same casting cost that serves a different purpose?"  The question is "Can I create a context with this card that is equally viable to or better than what I had before?"  I'm not sure what the answer is.  It has promise, but so have dozens of cards in the power-creeped newer blocks.  Comparing it straight up to Jace simply on account of the is like comparing Nature's Claim to Fastbond, Balance to Thalia, Serum Powder to Crucible of Worlds, etc.  

[AmbivalentDuck]

Playing this creature means playing a new deck so an analysis should go further than "Is it 'better' than another card with the same casting cost that serves a different purpose?"

I believe they serve the same purpose: after surviving two or three turns, both border on outright winning you the game.

[Bill Copes]

The climate right now is bad for this. Spot removal is at an all time high, including maindeck. If you spend 4 mana to resolve this and they kill it at your end of turn, are you going to have enough resources to fight over it? And if you do, you get a 2/2. Not that impressive.

Agreed about the climate.  Doesn't mean the card can't be evaluated for the meta in 6 months.  I don't get the point of the removal argument, otherwise.  You can say the same for any spell you're trying to get to stick.

Land this thing, have a counter war

I think you have that backwards.  This guy would prompt a counter war.  He's clearly solid once resolved, but so is Jace.  For 2UU, I can make 2/2s or Brainstorm every turn.  Unlike EtW, Talrand doesn't effectively read "win next turn ignoring Mana Drain and Force of Will."

Yep.  We all know Jace is an infinitely better card for the CC.  And I agree with what you're saying otherwise.  I don't even feel that this is necessarily better than ETW. This suits an incremental game.  ETW requires you to have gas in hand to be effective, for the most part.  This thing can live off topdeck mode and can improve your board position as you dig.  So yeah, it doesn't read, "win next turn," but is definitely card to reckon with if left unchecked.

[brianpk80]

Playing this creature means playing a new deck so an analysis should go further than "Is it 'better' than another card with the same casting cost that serves a different purpose?"

I believe they serve the same purpose: after surviving two or three turns, both border on outright winning you the game.

That's very vague, Duck.  Tangle Wire, Earwig Squad, Yawgmoth's Will, and Knight of the Reliquary also "border on outright wining you the game [after surviving a few turns]."  The same could be said for Stony Silence, Intuition, and so forth.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm approaching things more from the "combo with the general construction of a Vintage deck to produce insurmountable advantage over time" angle.  Of the examples you gave, only Knight of the Reliquary and Earwig Squad gradually improve your board state.  Even Yawgmoth's Will's greatest boost is immediate and fades somewhat over time.  Ie. First turn Petal, Black Lotus, Ancestral, Yawg Will, replay Ancestral and mana, somehow fail to win.  Every turn that you fail to draw something to cinch the game, your opponent gets closer to their own broken/dealing 20 to your dome. Tangle Wire and Stony Silence get worse over time as the opponent gains permanent mana sources over time.

[brianpk80]

I'm approaching things more from the "combo with the general construction of a Vintage deck to produce insurmountable advantage over time" angle.  Of the examples you gave, only Knight of the Reliquary and Earwig Squad gradually improve your board state.  Even Yawgmoth's Will's greatest boost is immediate and fades somewhat over time.  Ie. First turn Petal, Black Lotus, Ancestral, Yawg Will, replay Ancestral and mana, somehow fail to win.  Every turn that you fail to draw something to cinch the game, your opponent gets closer to their own broken/dealing 20 to your dome. Tangle Wire and Stony Silence get worse over time as the opponent gains permanent mana sources over time.

That assigns a new idiosyncratic meaning to the actual words used.  Mean what you say; say what you mean.     

[Meddling Mike]

I don't see this card seeing play, but I'm having a difficult time articulating why I feel that way. Maybe it's the fact that it's being compared to too many cards at once. (Jace because of CC/Legend/Ability to win a control mirror over time, ETW and Tendrils because they both win the game when a bunch of spells get cast and Quiron Dryad because it puts power on the table when spells get cast.) That's right, it's time, once again, for a Mike Lydon Pros/Cons list special!

Why I'd prefer Jace>Talrand:
1) Jace can bounce creatures.
2) Jace always does something the turn it comes into play.
3) Not reliant on other spells happening, makes it a better topdeck.
4) Not vulnerable to creature specific removal spells.

Why I'd prefer Talrand>Jace:
1) Can block/create blockers for multiple creatures.
2) They can't choose to attack Talrand like they can with Jace.
3) If you cast a bunch of spells after he comes down you can probably win faster than you can with Jace and are better hedged against removal/bounce.
4) Cheaper under Thorn of Amethyst.

Why I'd prefer Tendrils>Talrand:
1) Often wins the game that turn.
2) Easier to cast off Dark Ritual mana.
3) Can be used as a life gain spell in a pinch.
4) Ignores most counters.
5) Not vulnerable to bounce/removal/REB/Pyroblast.
6) Storm is built up by all spells, not just instants and sorceries.

Why I'd prefer Talrand>Tendrils:
1) Don't have to do it all in one turn.
2) It's blue. Pitches to FoW. Don't necessarily need to have black in the mana base.
3) Does more with little/nothing else in hand.
4) Not as vulnerable to things like Stifle, Flusterstorm and Mindbreak Trap.
5) Can provide a number of blockers quickly.
6) Cheaper under Thorn of Amethyst.

Why I'd prefer Empty the Warrens>Talrand:
1) Ignores most counters.
2) Better when mana generating spells are needed to cast it. (e.g. if you needed to cast Dark Ritual beforehand to get the mana to cast the spell this is good with ETW but one less activation for Talrand)
3) Storm is built up by all spells, not just instants and sorceries.

Why I'd prefer Talrand>Empty the Warrens:
1) Don't have to do it all in one turn.
2) It's blue. Pitches to FoW. Don't necessarily need to have red in the mana base.
3) Does more with little/nothing else in hand.
4) Not as vulnerable to things like Stifle, Flusterstorm, Echoing Truth and Mindbreak Trap.
5) Cheaper under Thorn of Amethyst.

Why I'd prefer Quirion Dryad>Talrand:
1) It costs two mana.
2) It's not legendary.
3) Triggers off all non-green, colored spells, not just instants and sorceries.

Why I'd prefer Talrand>Quirion Dryad:
1) Generating 2/2 flying tokens is better than +1/+1 counters
2) It's blue. Pitches to FoW. Don't necessarily need to have green in the mana base.
3) Does more with little/nothing else in hand.
4) Not as vulnerable to bounce spells.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I, for one, will be building Ibettercounterpyroclasm.dec with some vault/gush action going on.

[brokenbacon]

I, for one, will be building Ibettercounterpyroclasm.dec with some vault/gush action going on.

I lol'd.
This card seems very good. I can't wait to see what people do with it. Big Blue comes back in a field of dudes? I like it...

[Meddling Mike]

I suppose I never really drew any conclusions from my pros and cons lists, but I think the only one that Talrand should be able to replace effectively would be Dryad, and I think even that call is probably a decision based on your metagame and how likely you are to be able to cast/resolve a 2UU creature rather than a 1G creature. Compared to the storm spells, not getting triggers off artifacts makes me believe this would be much worse in the Storm combo decks where those cards typically see play. This is also considering that Dryad isn't seeing much play these days. (only 5 results on Morphling.de for Quirion Dryad in the past year) It might be worth having a set, but I would guess this card will only see fringe playability in Vintage. It's expensive, it doesn't win you the game right away and lacks the versatility of Jace.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I suppose I never really drew any conclusions from my pros and cons lists, but I think the only one that Talrand should be able to replace effectively would be Dryad, and I think even that call is probably a decision based on your metagame and how likely you are to be able to cast/resolve a 2UU creature rather than a 1G creature. Compared to the storm spells, not getting triggers off artifacts makes me believe this would be much worse in the Storm combo decks where those cards typically see play. This is also considering that Dryad isn't seeing much play these days. (only 5 results on Morphling.de for Quirion Dryad in the past year) It might be worth having a set, but I would guess this card will only see fringe playability in Vintage. It's expensive, it doesn't win you the game right away and lacks the versatility of Jace.

What if you want a finisher in  control that isn't wide open to spot removal and aren't playing red for etw. Ritual is the worst its been in a long time, and I'm not particularly fond of the DT approach with the format's speed. Landing this dude with a preordain or gush and a single counter up is pretty good. If they have double spot removal, or spot removal and a counter, you're still sitting there with 4 flying power after losing a counter war. I mean, at that point I would probably let my opponent win a counter/removal war in the vast majority of scenarios. You obviously don't play this as a 4 of, but between 2 of these 2 jace, tinker BSC, and vault key you've made sbing pretty tricky, looking at what people are currently packing.
yes, dryad hasn't put up results, but this is like a dryad that shrugs off doom blade, stp, even ET  isn't the worst, it also isn't effected by the recently super common perish like dryad is.

Now I'm not completely sold on this as the stone code nuts, but I think it's really worth a look. I think its a really cool card because you don't have to look to other colors for a solid finisher outside of tinker. If you pick them up and they're no good it'll be easy to unload them on some standard players anyways. Best case scenario this for ever replaces my periodical want to play Meloku when I should't, which is all the time.

[vaughnbros]

I think we can all pretty much agree that if you can untap with this the game is over save a board sweeper or your opponent winning on their next turn.  Its playability is more in question because of its relatively small impact on the first turn it comes out.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but I see 1 of 3 scenarios playing out on the turn you cast this:

1. It gets countered by a force or a drain because there isn't really any other counter magic being played that can hit this, but almost every card can be placed into this scenario.

2. It resolves and you have no mana up.  Misstep, force, gush, and gitaxian probe will produce a 2/2 fliers.

3.  It resolves with mana up.  This is obviously the ideal situation and you can chain preordains, tutors, and whatever else to generate 2/2 fliers.

The key here is that all the sorceries can be cast without passing priority meaning worst case scenario if you resolve this you should be getting at least 1 2/2 flier and your opponent has used a removal spell.  Not the greatest, but still seems good for a worst case scenario.

[Saya]

After all Misthollow Griffin wasn't played even in legacy.This cardwill follow the same way

[vaughnbros]

After all Misthollow Griffin wasn't played even in legacy.This cardwill follow the same way

Just because no one is daring enough to play it yet doesn't make it not playable.  If I remember correctly it took Jace a some time to catch on as well as many other staples of the format.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I remember several people flat out saying jace was unplayable or would not see play...perception at first can often be wrong.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

After all Misthollow Griffin wasn't played even in legacy.This cardwill follow the same way

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, maybe because I haven't played legacy in a while, but it seems like you're saying this this is like the 3/3 flyer.
I'm not following you here, sky summon potentially goes and makes a ton of dudes for just doing things blue does, and the 3/3.... isn't answered by stp and path....sorta...in a word where tempo doesn't exist.

[Ufactor]

What I like about this card is the ability to turn irrelevant junk into real threats.  Flusterstorm and Misstep become 2/2 drakes against MUD, artifact hate becomes 2/2 tokens against control and fish.  The dead cards that you're forced to run to survive the metagame is no longer a serious issue..