New Card: Rod of Nin

[TheWhiteDragon]

Rod of Nin - 6
Artifact
Draw a card on your upkeep
T: deal 1 damage to target creature or player

This looks TOTALLY playable in shop decks.  It's a couple more than bottled cloister, but with no vulnerability to EoT wrecking ball plays.  (remember EoT hurkyll's in response to RFG hand trigger?)  It also has the bonus of picking off bobs, goblins, nobles, snapcaster and ORCHARD TOKENS!  This gives a real draw engine for Shops that doubles as main oath hate and weenie sweeper.

[gkraigher]

I don't know how relevant the card drawing aspect of this card is.  Honestly, I know it doesn't hurt, but this is something a MUD deck will cast on turn 3 or 4.  It could come out earlier, so lets just say on average, turn 3.  If you are already behind in that game, then they will target this artifact with any removal and you will never get to see a card drawn from this.  Or they could just save their removal for an actual threat.  If you are already winning, this card adds little pressure initially and only puts you ahead 2 turns after you cast it.  That doesn't sound good and basically removes any main deck considerations, in my opinion.

The damage aspect of the card makes it comparable to triskelion.  I have recently added 4 triskelions to my MUD sideboard to deal with all the creature decks running around.  Yes, this card deals with 1 toughness creatures like kataki, snapcaster, porcelain legionnaire, dark confidant, spirit tokens, and thalia that are all over vintage (goblin lacky is being left out of this discussion, as a 6 mana answer to him is irrelevant).  However, it doesn't touch Leonin Relic Warder and, to a lesser degree, devout witness.  Playing MUD, my biggest fear is relic warder and I think the sideboard slots should go to triskelion.  

The rods interaction with delver of secrets is also sub par.  

I also board in triskelion against dredge, as it becomes better than other cards in my deck, for dealing with bridge from below.  This card doesn't improve the dread match up.

[TheWhiteDragon]

It's not going to improve EVERY matchup, but it does improve several.  It helps vs all the fish you mentioned, but also negates orchard vs. oath.  Yes, it is probably a turn 3 or more play, but that's not terrible because you are casting lodestones, tangles, and spheres in the first couple of turns.  To say someone will just "hold hate for a real threat" makes no sense.  If an opponent is going to let me cast an extra card each turn and hold his answer form my golem or whatnot, then he will be falling behind.  MUD's biggest problems are 1) no instant answers to threats on the stack or battlefield, 2) no good card draw.  This is basically that card draw with added utility.  The first couple turns, MUD is going to be dumping its mana and hand.  After turn 3 is when it goes into topdeck mode and needs to draw.  It doesn't need card draw on turn 2.

Hands for mud are typically something like mox, mox, shop, chalice 0, sphere.  Turn two, wasteland, golem - now down to 1 card.  On turn 3, it needs the card draw.  If it can drop a tomb, shop, traitors, whatever and get this into play on turn 3, your opponent is going to need several mana to cast a 1 mana answer....in the meantime, you draw an extra threat (wasteland, sphere, tangle, golem, chalice, crucible - basically the whole deck is a threat after turn 2) every turn - while pinging his legionaire/bob/noble/etc to help keep him down.  I can't see how this is bad.  If you are behind and he has a removal spell in hand to deal with this, then it doesn't matter what card you have - he'll remove it, and you'll stay behind.  But if you are behind and he doesn't have removal, a one-sided howling mine can get you back in the game because you are doubling threats to his answers every turn.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Costs 6 mana, doesn't win the game.  No thanks.  6-drops for Shops are Wurmcoil Engine, Duplicant, Steel Hellkite, that sort of thing.  Rod of Blueprints is not playable.

[serracollector]

I agree with you white dragon.  I think the card is very playable.  In any variant with Metalworkers, this can be an easy turn 2 drop, that fuels metalworker, while providing more threats, as well as the Obv critter control.

This card also helps Kuldotha builds, getting more perms in play to sac.

And don't disregard metamorphing this to now draw 3 a turn, and kill anything toughness 2>

Also works with Voltaic Key to kill anything 2> toughness.

This also becomes a 6/6 fatty under Karn.

A very good card for Metalworker Mud builds definitely.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Costs 6 mana, doesn't win the game.  No thanks.  6-drops for Shops are Wurmcoil Engine, Duplicant, Steel Hellkite, that sort of thing.  Rod of Blueprints is not playable.

6 mana threats are as you mentioned...but this card can draw you all those threats.  What about something like mono-red welder/bridge stax?  Your bridges lock the attack phase and this card lets you drop lock after lock while sharpshooting all the while.

None of the cards you listed win the game, despite costing 6.  They help you get there, but are also vulnerable to creature removal as well as the artifact removal (jace, anyone?).  I think this card has more benefit than you assume.  Also, the weenie control aspect is not entirely useless.  It's not as fast of a clock as wurmcoil, nor as good at pinging as triskelion, nor as good at drawing as things blue/black has - but it does a bit of all of that decently.

If I am seeing the phases right, you can also ping a 2/2 fish at EoT after clean-up step, then finish it off on your turn before the next cleanup to get a bit more bang from it's pointy piece.

[gkraigher]

I don't see how this card negates orchard.  It has the potential to negate orchard on occasion, but if you take it to an extreme, infinite number of games played limiit---orchard costs 0 mana and is run as a 4 lot //  rod costs 6 mana and MAX you would play 3.

Playing this card on turn 3 does not stop a turn 1 orchard.  

"

If I am seeing the phases right, you can also ping a 2/2 fish at EoT after clean-up step, then finish it off on your turn before the next cleanup to get a bit more bang from it's pointy piece.

this is not correct.

[Nydaeli]

If you want something that draws cards and picks off creatures, Sword of Fire and Ice is way better, assuming you run enough creatures.

[TheWhiteDragon]

If you want something that draws cards and picks off creatures, Sword of Fire and Ice is way better, assuming you run enough creatures.

That is true...it probably is the better card in aggro MUD.  Perhaps the home for this is in an ensnaring bridge stax build.  Could be interesting.

[BC]

Don't listen to the naysayers.  This card is good.

[Shax]

One of my favorite cards in a long time.

Plus it's non legendary, and being able to ping a player every turn is huge.

[Bill Copes]

Don't listen to the naysayers.  This card is good.

Hell yeah.  I wish we could still play Granite Shard, but this seems way more fun.

[Meddling Mike]

Costs 6 mana, doesn't win the game.  No thanks.  6-drops for Shops are Wurmcoil Engine, Duplicant, Steel Hellkite, that sort of thing.  Rod of Blueprints is not playable.

I'm leaning more towards this line of thinking myself.

If you want something that draws cards and picks off creatures, Sword of Fire and Ice is way better, assuming you run enough creatures.

Well, it's a little tough to make that comparison. You need a creature, you need non-workshop mana to equip, you need the creature to not get bounced/removed in response to the equip or STP'd in combat, then you need the creature to connect to the face to get the effect. If you manage all that it's undoubtedly better.

[JACO]

This card is fucking terrible, and this thread is a great example of why single card discussions for every newly spoiled card are stupid.

[credmond]

I don't think this card is viable in a Mud Aggro build or most shops builds. There are simply better 6 drops, like Hellkite.

However, for a shops build that wants to avoid the combat step with stuff like ensnaring bridge and/or wants to pile the creature hate high with stuff like tabernacle, this has some definite things going for it. So . . . maybe in the right build . . . but definitely not a shop deck staple.

I wouldn't be surprised if this saw some play in a welder, bazaar, bridge build and zero play in all other Shop builds.

[Wagner]

This card is fucking terrible, and this thread is a great example of why single card discussions for every newly spoiled card are stupid.

Agreed, how dare people have discussion about their personal ideas and interpretations on how viable new things are, on a public forum of all places! Scandalous!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

he's right though, this thing is awful. If you want to draw a card there are cheaper ways to do it, and if you want to ping for one there are cheaper ways to do it. And i'm pretty sure being able to do both at the same time isn't as huge as people think.

Any any point you are casting this thing you've got sit back and think, "hey i just resolved a 6 cc spell in shop, I've probably already won the game...and pretty much any other already played 6 drop would have been better."

[bluemage55]

This card is fucking terrible, and this thread is a great example of why single card discussions for every newly spoiled card are stupid.

Agreed, how dare people have discussion about their personal ideas and interpretations on how viable new things are, on a public forum of all places! Scandalous!

Low quality posts don't contirbute to a productive forum.

[Tha Gunslinga]

See, the best part about this card is that it will typically cost you like 8 or 9 mana since it doesn't play through Sphere or Thorn.  At least Wurmcoil and friends play through Thorn.  I would play Sundering Titan over this, since that card is actually good.

[Wagner]

This card is fucking terrible, and this thread is a great example of why single card discussions for every newly spoiled card are stupid.

Agreed, how dare people have discussion about their personal ideas and interpretations on how viable new things are, on a public forum of all places! Scandalous!

Low quality posts don't contirbute to a productive forum.

Well, as a person that doesn't often play shops, I'm glad to see why people think this card might or might not be worth it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that appreciates the thoughts on the matter.

If people never discuss new cards before "some" people find them terrible, that doesn't leave much for innovation. New cards aren't always 100% playable or unplayable at first glance.

[credmond]

See, the best part about this card is that it will typically cost you like 8 or 9 mana since it doesn't play through Sphere or Thorn.  At least Wurmcoil and friends play through Thorn.  I would play Sundering Titan over this, since that card is actually good.

And yet this card can get welded into play through a cage and can finish the game through an ensnaring bridge, which you can't do with Sundering Titan. This card does have a niche, just not with the popular variants of Shops right now. This card sucks for MUD Aggro, MUD Prison, and even MUD Forgemaster. Yeah we get that. But I remember lists with 4 x Bazaar of Baghdad in them . . .

[nightmare1016]

This may find a home in Shop Prison. Getting me a set of these when it comes out.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

See, the best part about this card is that it will typically cost you like 8 or 9 mana since it doesn't play through Sphere or Thorn.  At least Wurmcoil and friends play through Thorn.  I would play Sundering Titan over this, since that card is actually good.

And yet this card can get welded into play through a cage and can finish the game through an ensnaring bridge, which you can't do with Sundering Titan. This card does have a niche, just not with the popular variants of Shops right now. This card sucks for MUD Aggro, MUD Prison, and even MUD Forgemaster. Yeah we get that. But I remember lists with 4 x Bazaar of Baghdad in them . . .

Yeah, you can weld it in for a 20 turn clock, vintage is way into the 20 turn clock.

[credmond]

See, the best part about this card is that it will typically cost you like 8 or 9 mana since it doesn't play through Sphere or Thorn.  At least Wurmcoil and friends play through Thorn.  I would play Sundering Titan over this, since that card is actually good.

And yet this card can get welded into play through a cage and can finish the game through an ensnaring bridge, which you can't do with Sundering Titan. This card does have a niche, just not with the popular variants of Shops right now. This card sucks for MUD Aggro, MUD Prison, and even MUD Forgemaster. Yeah we get that. But I remember lists with 4 x Bazaar of Baghdad in them . . .

Yeah, you can weld it in for a 20 turn clock, vintage is way into the 20 turn clock.

Bazaar Welder Shop variants have never had a fast finish, at least not the variant I have in mind with ensnaring bridge. Welder beats and/or ring recursion for the win is very typical. It locks the opponent out then finishes the game as an after thought. Its about as slow as Landstill which I hear is quite the Vintage deck. Maybe you should notify the landstill players their clock is too slow for Vintage. Losing to Rod of Nin card advantage and pings will rank up there in humiliation with factory beats under a standstill. I have enraged many an opponent with Welder beats, aka Mons Golin Raiders beats, with this kind of shop deck.

Look you naysayers are right. This card is useless for all but one or a few particular designs of Shops. This ain't going to show up in no Panther list, that's for sure. As you were, MUD aggro players. Move along. Nothing to see here.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

See, the best part about this card is that it will typically cost you like 8 or 9 mana since it doesn't play through Sphere or Thorn.  At least Wurmcoil and friends play through Thorn.  I would play Sundering Titan over this, since that card is actually good.

And yet this card can get welded into play through a cage and can finish the game through an ensnaring bridge, which you can't do with Sundering Titan. This card does have a niche, just not with the popular variants of Shops right now. This card sucks for MUD Aggro, MUD Prison, and even MUD Forgemaster. Yeah we get that. But I remember lists with 4 x Bazaar of Baghdad in them . . .

Yeah, you can weld it in for a 20 turn clock, vintage is way into the 20 turn clock.

Bazaar Welder Shop variants have never had a fast finish. Welder beats and/or ring recursion for the win is very typical. It locks the opponent out then finishes the game as an after thought. Its about as slow as Landstill which I hear is quite the Vintage deck. Maybe you should notify the landstill players their clock is too slow for Vintage. Losing to Rod of Nin card advantage and pings will rank up there in humiliation with factory beats under a standstill.

Look you naysayers are right. This card is useless for all but one or a few particular designs of Shops. This ain't going to show up in no Panther list, that's for sure. As you were, MUD aggro players. Move along. Nothing to see here.

You could do a lot of things in 2005 that aren't a good idea any more. Those lists got pretty into welding in a 7/10 at points anyways, which was pretty quick.
 
As someone who's recently top 8'd with land still, I can assure you it’s not dealing 1 dmg a turn, most list are literally incapable of doing one dmg a turn. It has a rather large number a 2/2’s (my last list had 6  ) maybe some 2/1’s depending on your variant, you'll often find yourself attacking for around 4 (It has something to do with having a draw engine that comes on line before you hit 6 on the curve).  That’s 4 times what you’re proposing and will more likely start happening faster.

Also, there’s nothing humiliating about losing to factory, I’m not quite sure why people all the sudden are insisting everyone thought it was bad. It’s a card that sees play in waves, like most cards, but is considered a good card by the vast majority of players.

The worst part about this card is that people are going to play it, and there are going to be some war mammothesque results. However, most of the time it’s going to be, “I drew this instead of having wurmcoil or hellkite in my 60, and my opponent landed a goyf. In the following three turns I dealt 3 dmg and drew three useless lock pieces while goyf killed me.” But we’ll never hear about those far more common games, because the few times blueprints+rod of ruin hits the table and doesn’t lose people are going to want say “I told you so” on the internet. They’re going to pretend it had nothing to do with the billion lock pieces resolved before it. The card could have been war mammoth and won the game, and I’m sure in many cases war mammoth would have been 3x faster.

Really, what it comes down to is that 6 is too expensive for this type of effect. It’s just not cheap enough to be casted before it becomes mana drain food. Most of the time bottled cloister is just going to be better if it’s the card draw aspect you are valuing. And I have a feeling most, but not all, things you’d want to deal 1 dmg to be going to be better answered by revoker, and you’re going to want to do it before you’re resolving 6 cc spells through spheres. If this costed 4 I’d be all over it, if it costed 5, I don’t know, but it cost 6. In an environment I only see becoming more goyf friendly. For a pretty packed archetype.

[credmond]

I don't think you get it. I am not talking about 5c stax which you seem to be referring to with your 2005 reference to Sundering Titan. Rod of Nin is better than Hellkite or Wurmcoil if the deck in question is packing 4x Ensnaring Bridges and seeks to shut down combat altogether. Consider a build with that design space in mind. There is no way I am going to put Hellkite or Wurmcoil into a deck with 4 bridges.

Why bridges? If you haven't noticed, bridges are . . . kinda good . . . these days. Fine aggro abounds.

Also, you fail to get the point about lock and clock. If a deck seeks to lock the other person out completely first and foremost, it doesn't matter whether its a 10 turn or 20 turn or 2 turn clock. The finish is an after thought to the lock. The deck wins by locking and that is what is vintage about the deck. Rapid total locking out of the opponent.

But whatever. It's not like this card is going to warp all shop decks, and I am not sure why you are arguing against my points about a card that is comparable to Null Brooch in its playability - its pretty damn niche as I have pointed out. It's just that this card MAY fit perfectly snuggly into a bazaar welder bridge deck. That is all.

[Tha Gunslinga]

And yet this card can get welded into play through a cage and can finish the game through an ensnaring bridge, which you can't do with Sundering Titan.

If you can Weld out the Cage, then you can just use Welder to swap the bridge and the Titan to hit for 7 every other turn.  I think I would prefer the traditional kill of Barb Ring+Crucible to running this card, since those are cards you already run, and this would mean adding a fairly dead card.  In a Welder+Bazaar deck, yes, this may be playable.  However, I have not seen a Shop deck running Bazaar, Welder, and Bridge in quite some time, and I don't expect to anytime soon, unless I visit St. Louis.

[Vennie]

How is drawing 2 cards with this going to help you to ensure that bridge stays on-line instead of just drawing you 2 lands for two or three turns so bridge just does not work anymore vs 2/x creatures where x is not 1? Isn't that a little counterproductive?

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think bazaar helps to keep your hand size down and you will cast a spell or two each turn.  Even if you have bridge out, which is much more important than any other card in a bridge build, you can have a card in hand and be fine.  1/1s will get shot by this as well.  The critical hand size to stay below is 2 with bridge, and drawing 2 a turn, with access to bazaar and casting cards will never cause you to have an issue.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I don't think you get it. I am not talking about 5c stax which you seem to be referring to with your 2005 reference to Sundering Titan. Rod of Nin is better than Hellkite or Wurmcoil if the deck in question is packing 4x Ensnaring Bridges and seeks to shut down combat altogether. Consider a build with that design space in mind. There is no way I am going to put Hellkite or Wurmcoil into a deck with 4 bridges.

Why bridges? If you haven't noticed, bridges are . . . kinda good . . . these days. Fine aggro abounds.

Also, you fail to get the point about lock and clock. If a deck seeks to lock the other person out completely first and foremost, it doesn't matter whether its a 10 turn or 20 turn or 2 turn clock. The finish is an after thought to the lock. The deck wins by locking and that is what is vintage about the deck. Rapid total locking out of the opponent.

But whatever. It's not like this card is going to warp all shop decks, and I am not sure why you are arguing against my points about a card that is comparable to Null Brooch in its playability - its pretty damn niche as I have pointed out. It's just that this card MAY fit perfectly snuggly into a bazaar welder bridge deck. That is all.

I don't think you get it (see what I did there?). It was an example about things working in the distant past aren't good reasons to do them now (I could make a snarky remark about taboo human conventions of the distant past to drive my point home here, but I won't and I think you  can think of a few by yourself). And yes mono red stax, bazaar stax, 5c stax, mud, and express stax have all contained a 7/10 at one point or another. I know I certainly have played a 7/10 at one point or another in each one of those decks during a shop binge in the billion years I've played this game.

The point is, whether or not you're playing bridges, at the point you have this thing in play, at 6 mana, you probably would be better off with any other 6 cc shop slot. Think about it, you're a shop deck and you’re resolving things for a billion. Even if you’re under ensnaring bridge and in this, already game winning, position you could play something with earlier application like smoke stack, which something that functions earlier game, as well as solves your, “however will I win thorough my own ensnaring bridge” issue. Winning through your own bridge is really not that hard. Also, I never asked why play bridges, or said they are bad. So you don't need to tell me that bridge being good is a selling point for this thing, because bridge doesn't really add to the functionality of this card.

The issue with the card is that if you’re playing it to win the game, there seems like a million better cards to play that do that and you are already playing, like lodestone and hellkite. Or, if you are running this to cover the formality of winning you are probably also running cards that do that, like a single welder/karn/stack. The only real reason to play this card would be too draw cards, and you have better options for that.