Human Ingenuity

[Stormanimagus]

I totally agree on revoker over Pridemage.  The only time PM is better is vs Oath, and only if your not SB meddling mage or true believer (both humans..)

Also blue totally allows you to run Rayne, Academy Chancellor which can become a massive pain for 4 bolt/4 stp.dec.

Thanks Brian, I totally think blue is a must have for this deck.

I dunno, I hear Pridemage is also pretty good against shops. The GW is rarely an issue. I dunno, Pride is the most negotiable slot, but no one on this site has yet to convince me that Revoker is worth running. It is simply non-negotiable that I will run Stony Silence. If you guys can't understand how a virtual 8-14 for 1 is worth running then I simply don't know what to say to that. And if I'm running Stony Silence then Revokers start to feel very redundant to me. That is my argument against Revoker. Someone needs to make more than just a "it works well with Thalia" argument in order to convince me cause guess what? So does Stony!

-Storm

[credmond]

Revoker hits Jace, Griselbrand, Salvager, and Lavamancer.

It also helps when you don't have a stony silence in hand and need to answer an artifact NOW like Metalworker or an opponent's turn 1 Jace.

Also, what about Devout Witness vs Pridemage?

Anyway, those are just suggestions. Of course everything needs to be tested and the optimum mix sorted out. If pridemage just fits then pridemage just fits.

[Guli]

Cavern Humans is a new archetype because Cavern of Souls and Mayor are not cards used by GWx beats.

Cavern is, Mayor is not. The core of your build is Confidant, Thalia and Hierarch combined with mana denial like Stony and Strip  effects. That's the same as a traditional GWx build.
Adding one new card, Mayor, to a shell isn't enough to call it a new archetype. When I play GWb and add Aven Mindcensor and name "Wizard" with Cavern, it's not a new archetype either.

Nobody added 'one' card, i designed it from scratch after Cavern of Souls was spoiled. NOW it all looks logical and clear, but that is only because I pushed my ideas and convinced people with my determination. I compare Cavern with Workshop and Bazaar, a free card that generates tempo and virtual card advantage. And you underestimate the role that 1 or 2 cards can play.

[Blue Lotus]

This:

For all intents and purposes you might as well call this MUD.

Thalia = Lodestone
Bob = Metalworker
Mayor = Wire/Stack
Knight = Kuldotha

all the same

Doesn't make any sense.

This:

Nobody added 'one' card, i designed it from scratch after Cavern of Souls was spoiled. NOW it all looks logical and clear, but that is only because I pushed my ideas and convinced people with my determination. I compare Cavern with Workshop and Bazaar, a free card that generates tempo and virtual card advantage. And you underestimate the role that 1 or 2 cards can play.

Is the most unbridled bit of narcissism I have ever read on the internet.


Onto the deck. Is Bojuka Bog necessary? When I play knight against dredge I am very happy to find a wasteland. This stops their engine and immediately makes knight a 4/4, allowing you to stabilize against ichorid recursion. Bog is very nice against dredge but I think it is unnecessary. It is also a dreadful draw in your opening seven.

What do the basics in the board do? Is there a noticible change in the shop matchup? Wouldn't something like nature's claim go father as it can be brought in against oath as well?

[Guli]

Yes, I am a narcissistic genius. Remember me like that.

[credmond]

Yes, I am a narcissistic genius. Remember me like that.

I think you guys should start naming these decks after Italian coffee/food items. Maybe this deck could be called Mortadella Human Caverns.

[Guli]

haha

Anyway, here is an interesting card I will use to have a removal stick. Looks interesting with Stun Sniper + exalted/mayor/jitte.

[tito del monte]

I was wondering whether High Priest would get a mention. He certainly looks interesting and I've pre-ordered a playset, but it's a major blow that he can't destroy lands.

I'm not sure how well he will pan out in your Caverns build Guli, but I could certainly imagine him in a deck with Aether Vial to flashed in as a suprise blocker. And if you were running Vial, I guess that would mean not running Stony Silence, so you could run Stoneforge Mystic next to him - he be a fine Sword carrier. Sword of Light and Shadow would recur him nicely, too.

[serracollector]

and....



and....



all humans....

[Guli]

It is simple actually.

The card is excellent in holding ground against say f.e. a Revoker and a Lodestone Golem, if they attack you 2v1 them. Last night I started my first testing, opponent had a Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf. He could not swing. Then this happened:

I got a Stun Sniper into play and had already a Noble from the beginning. I attack with the card (as a 2/2). At that point I can ping it for 1 with Sniper but I don't. If he wants to block with bob, I will let the trigger kill Tarmogoyf AND on top I will ping it to kill another non land permanent. Are you guys catching on now? The card is a walking time bomb with Stun Sniper. So he didn't block, took 2 damage. I did some other things and then before ending my turn, I pinged to kill Tarmogoyf. Maybe I should kill Dark Confidant there but I did not want to risk it, I can kill Bob next turn but this was my only chance to kill Tarmo before he kills my Priest.

So with Exalted and Mayor boost already in the deck, it is not unthinkable that Priest will get more than 1 toughness on a regular basis. Stun Sniper is a card I tested for a long time, and it is a very amazing card in this specific build solving some board control issues. With High Priest alongside, you could have complete board control. You are already targetting their mana with Thalia, Revoker, Wastelands, so it makes sense to be able to get rid/control non land permanents as well.

And since I only started testing yesterday and played only 5 games total, I will eventually find more little combo's with this. I have two thinks in my mind right now:

- Would it be good to have additional boost for the humans? Things like Mikaeus, Ajani PW for   , ...
- Like Serra mentioned, are there now other 'pingers' viable? Or even effects like Fire/Ice, were you can pump Priest and double ping it to sweep their board.

To end, Priest is a card that has an effect on itself against any deck that uses non flying creatures. The card would work well with Scryb Ranger in that regard, because Ranger stops almost any flying creature out there and could potentially untap Priest. I would also suggest Storm tests this out in his build, because he has even more EXALTED (with pridemage). There are some non red humans that can deal damage I would guess. You could also use Ulvenwald Tracker's fight mechanic. Or things like Icatian Javelineers. I think it is interesting to be able to kill high priority targets like Oath and Jace if you get to set up your board.

[StanleyAugust]

Wow, that High Priest dude is indeed very interesting.

[psyburat]

After reading the thread, I find the biggest issue in this discussion is that players like Guli and serracollector are trying to backpedal the efficiency that Noah's deck demonstrates by filling it with "cool things".  For reference: The Danger of Cool Things

Nice deck Noah.  If I ever grow weary of combo I'll be once again picking up one of your creation.

EDIT:  Spelling errors.

[Guli]

After reading the thread, I find the biggest issue in this discussion is that players like Guli and serracollector are trying to packpedal the efficiency that Noah's deck demonstrates by filling it with "cool things".  For reference: The Danger of Cool Things

Nice deck Noah.  If I ever grow weary of combo I'll be once again picking up one of your creations.

If I would follow that reasoning, this deck would never have existed in the first place. I am very cautious in my card selections the last couple of years.

[psyburat]

After reading the thread, I find the biggest issue in this discussion is that players like Guli and serracollector are trying to packpedal the efficiency that Noah's deck demonstrates by filling it with "cool things".  For reference: The Danger of Cool Things

Nice deck Noah.  If I ever grow weary of combo I'll be once again picking up one of your creations.

If I would follow that reasoning, this deck would never have existed in the first place. I am very cautious in my card selections the last couple of years.

That's not what the article implies.

[Stormanimagus]

I'm forced to agree with Mike here. While I always like to say "test it first" before writing off a card I don't think High Priest is one of those cards. Why would I pay 1WWBR and a turn to have control over a single Vindicate when I could just have uh. . . Vindicate? And Vindicate doesn't even make the cut in this list. Sure, High Priest is flexible and helpful if you aren't controlling the red zone but when is this deck not controlling the red zone? Red Zone losses are not really how we lose. We lose to cards like Oath, TV/Key, and BSC when we lose or even cards like Wurmcoil Engine or Smokestack/Cruci. I'm just not seeing where High Priest shores up a weakness this deck has. To me it seems like "win more" except maybe in the mirror (a matchup we'll almost never see). Sure there are 2 and 3 card combos that make this guy decent, but you need to acknowledge that many of them are 3 card combos (This guy + Stun Sniper + Mayor). Do you really think a 3 card combo that doesn't even have haste/win the game outright is worth running? The mantra of this deck is 1-card combos with overall synergy. I don't really want cards to NEED other cards in order to be useful and I think I've achieved quite well with my list.

The only card that has been mentioned that should be open for debate is Phyrexian Revoker. That guy has possible applications vs. shops because often you'll want your own moxen online, but want to hose a key card of theirs. Against any other deck I'd probably take Stony Silence in a heartbeat (save maybe a weird D. Shaman list with something like Liliana as well and obviously Dark Times).

I'm not trying to tear down ideas before they've had a chance to breath a bit, but I do want to be careful to avoid "the danger of cool things." Thus far, I feel I've done that in an archetype notorious for it.

-Storm

[Guli]

After reading the thread, I find the biggest issue in this discussion is that players like Guli and serracollector are trying to packpedal the efficiency that Noah's deck demonstrates by filling it with "cool things".  For reference: The Danger of Cool Things

Nice deck Noah.  If I ever grow weary of combo I'll be once again picking up one of your creations.

If I would follow that reasoning, this deck would never have existed in the first place. I am very cautious in my card selections the last couple of years.

That's not what the article implies.

I know what you are implying.

*But all Storm did is add Knight, which wasn't a new innovation, it was an idea discussed before. So if adding Knight and tuning it made the deck efficient, then you are right I guess. Pridemage was in some of the lists I tried. I really don't understand why you create some 'category' of people were apparently Serra and Guli fit in and then you 'take the back' of Noah. I don't get it...I think you are dead wrong here, you have no idea what you are talking about.

[brianpk80]

Setting aside for a moment the predictable internecine catfight at this year's Miss Mana Drain Pageant, it does bear noting that a card like High Priest of Penance can't be analyzed from the perspective of "what existing shell would this enhance" but rather from an assessment of whether this type of effect enables a new context that can do things more efficiently (or comparably but differently) than something that already exists.  I don't know the answer.  The article about the danger of "cool things" was a bit misleading since it referenced situations where a player is distracted by misguided bursts of creativity during a match rather than during design.  

For one, the High Priest doesn't require another card to be relevant, as it's a deathtouch blocker, meaning it addresses a few problems presented by cards like Tarmogoyf and potentially Lodestone Golem... and Inkwell Leviathan under certain rare circumstances I suppose.  It's certainly interesting in an Oath of Ghouls lock situation and in a Knight/Wayfarer set up, it becomes a reusable Vindcate with Barbarian Ring + Pendelhaven, both of which are useful cards on their own.  It's a human so while Qasali Pridemage may be a "better card" in some sense for other contexts, relieving the tax on the mana base is huge.  I can't write off the card without further research, since the versatility of destroying any permanent may yield a more elegant way of packaging an ideal answer suite, which has always been a challenge for this archetype or sub-archetype or sub-sub-archetype.  If it turns out current shells do thing more effectively, then no one is any worse off for having explored the idea and learned firsthand why it does not work and for what reasons.  

On a related note, is the Realmwright in Gatecrash of any use at all for color fixing?  I can't find a straight answer on whether making all lands a chosen "basic" land makes them invalid targets for Wasteland but the case may be different for Magus of the Moon.

Cheers, -B

[Stormanimagus]

@Guli - I don't understand where all this anger directed at me has come from. I heard from x9 Flash on cockatrice that you were upset at me for credit grabbing this deck. I want to make it publicly clear if it was not before that I am definitely acknowledging you as the founder of much of the base of this deck (i.e 4 Noble, 4 Bob, 4 Thalia, 4 mayor). I have tweaked the list to my liking, but I am totally open to being proven wrong on my card choices. Perhaps Phyrexian Revoker truly IS better than Qasali Pridemage. Honestly, I've sorta turned from this deck of late (and Vintage) because it simply doesn't beat all the shop lists out there that run metalworker/wurmcoil/kuldotha etc., it also has a hell of a time beating oath consistently. Those 2 decks are getting ever more popular and this deck is also running into a fair amount of splash hate for creature (lots of bolts/snaps/clasms/etc.)

My opinion of the deck is it needs a human plow that is far more efficient than Fiend Hunter. Something 1-2 cmc would be awesome (even if it gave them life). If this deck got something like that, then I'd put it back in the running. As it stands, relying on swords means you are now much more vulnerable to missteps and if you throw in claims even more-so. I dunno. Maybe plow truly IS the best answer vs. shops, but I'm just done trying to make this deck work. I've put out the shell that I think works best. I leave it to you all to innovate on it. Best of luck all!

-Storm

[Guli]

High Priest is worth looking into as a replacement for Pridemage. I suggest you try them out with Ulvenwald Tracker. Priest enables a control role against aggro and can kill Oath and Jace. I will try to look into cards that do damage and can be reused but don't require a huge setup like Stun Sniper. That being said, cards like Tracker and Sniper are very good to get rid of OR control problematic enemy bears like Revoker, Pridemage, Tarmogoyf, etc... The thing I am opting for here is to mix things up a bit and get a powerfull team synergy while also having very solid stand alone cards. Having 4 Trackers does nothing, you probably only need 1. Having 4 Priest also does nothing since you only need 1 to make use of the trigger. So my argument says:

It is better to have 2 Tracker and 2 Priest in a deck than to have 0 Tracker and 4 Priest or respectively 4 Tracker and 0 Priest. You can not rely on Mayor alone against aggro. The fact that Knight and Pridemage ( very solid cards against aggro) are in the deck acknowledges my argument. However, I don't think using Pridemage is efficient at all in a Human deck with Caverns. If the opponent deck is filled with mana denial, revokers, triskelon (or other removal), spheres, you can end up in situations were pridemage can not be cast. Sure a lot of times you will be able to cast the card, but in the end, those times that you won't (and were this cost you the game) can be seen as 'significant' in the long run.

I am trying to be constructive here, my critic is directed at the usage of cards that could potentially backfire with a Cavern mana base. And the power of Cavern is only put to maximum if you use 4 or 5 colors in my opinion. This means, that using Caverns goes alongside using City of Brass. And if we count, 4 waste, strip, 4 Cavern, 4 City, that already makes 13. There is not much room left for fetchlands and Savannah (or other dual lands). Cutting a color does NOT mean you are making the deck more efficient.

Coming back to my argument, and bringing in Brians post, the way he formulates it is exactly what I am trying to say. Any card can open up new context and bring new meaning to Human Caverns, since it is relatively in its infant stages of development. Yea it is my baby, but I also know that babies grow up and get in touch with other people. I am fine with that. I hope this analogy didn't sound too disturbing

What does High Priest mean for Human Caverns?

So far, the most striking thing about the card is that it shuts down the pressure Lodestone Golem can bring in. I have found Jitte to be very powerfull with the card. It is indeed like death touch in a way. But it CAN be more because it is a trigger that can be controled by yourself. That is the big difference, you can manipulate it with the simple mechanic of damage. It has to receive damage, not deal. There is right now no real big beef muscle Human for 2 mana. I am stating this in comparison to Tarmogoyf. To compensate for this, we tried things like Phantaslam Image, and it all works fine. You aren't playing with a big dude, but you are trying to find ways to compensate for the fact that others do. As a stand alone card, High Priest might be able to fill in that role in Human Caverns. The nice thing is that next to that role, you can also try to make him multi-functional using the trigger. Well, the first role also does use the trigger so let me rephrase that: You can make Priest multi-functional by triggering it to target non-creature permanents. This is exactly why Pridemage is so good, it hits artifacts AND enchantments while also playing a role of aggro (clock).

I hope I made myself more clear, the thing is though, pridemage only needed a mana source to use its ability, but it only hits 2 type of cards. Priest hits all non lands. There are ups and downs, but in a Human Cavern list, I think Priest should be given priority, at least a chance.

About Revoker, I am not comparing him to Pridemage. Revoker fills in a different role and it is a crucial role, it can not be cut.

For those who seek more concrete matters and like to test things, here is the list I started of with today:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Dark Confidant
4 City of Brass
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 High Priest of Penance
4 Stun Sniper
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Ancient Ziggurat
3 Glowrider
1 Karakas
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Glowrider
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 War Priest of Thune
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage

This list will probably change on daily basis. But it is a start and shows the direction of my thought proces.

The deck tech right now is:

+

[Blue Lotus]

THIS IS AMAZING

[serracollector]

wow, SOFI on Penance is a little silly.  Didn't even think of that.

[Guli]

wow, SOFI on Penance is a little silly.  Didn't even think of that.

Yea, it is slow, but it does give you that board control once established. Meanwhile none of the cards are 'bad' as singletons, the deck operates as usual, denial+spheres+dudes+mayor...

Thing is, I don't want to build around any cards. But in order to make Priest better than he is, to manipulate the trigger, you will need a certain amount of slots (threshold). I did not do any math on this, but it feels about right like this.

So one the one hand you have the noble or mayor or Stoneforge to give it a boost, and on the other hand there is Stoneforge (again) and Stun Sniper to enable the trigger. I was thinking about a card that gives boost and deals damage. Sofi seems like the card to have there. So I ended up with SFM. But we all know how SFM can single handily turn a match up in your favor. So i like it so far.

I also did add Glowriders back in, to slow things down a bit more.

[Stormanimagus]

wow, SOFI on Penance is a little silly.  Didn't even think of that.

Yea, it is slow, but it does give you that board control once established. Meanwhile none of the cards are 'bad' as singletons, the deck operates as usual, denial+spheres+dudes+mayor...

Thing is, I don't want to build around any cards. But in order to make Priest better than he is, to manipulate the trigger, you will need a certain amount of slots (threshold). I did not do any math on this, but it feels about right like this.

So one the one hand you have the noble or mayor or Stoneforge to give it a boost, and on the other hand there is Stoneforge (again) and Stun Sniper to enable the trigger. I was thinking about a card that gives boost and deals damage. Sofi seems like the card to have there. So I ended up with SFM. But we all know how SFM can single handily turn a match up in your favor. So i like it so far.

I also did add Glowriders back in, to slow things down a bit more.

Guli, don't you get pretty mangled by a single Massacre, D-Blast or Pyroclasm? My list seemed a bit more resilient to that.

-Storm

[Guli]

Massacre would have to be hardcast under spheres, mmm, is hard to pull off, I don't run plains.

D blast is always a problem, but I have played around it with Mayor and sheer pressure before. Also Stoneforge looks interesting vs Darkblast as well (card itself plus the equip it gets).

Pyroclasm is gay. But I guess with that priest trigger, a clasm would hurt them too right?

I fear balance a lot more, cheap and effective Burning Wish target. But it is all about using/managing your resources and chances. Sometimes you have to go for it and over commit, sometimes its a mistake and they punish you. Takes experience to make the right calls.

Knight is a good card against red based removal. But I have seen the usage of sword to plowshares in very recent top 8 snap jace control decks. Looks like control is using red for bolt/grudge and white for balance/stp with success. Don't know about your meta though... Both versions look viable and strong.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Engineered Explosives is pretty strong vs this deck as well. Even more so if you don't mix up the CMC of the dudes you play. All landstill lists play explosives now and bomberman can tutor EE. I know this deck plays stony silence (or some builds do), but EE can be a blow out against humans.

I also agree there are a fair amount of swords being played, in addition to the usual red removal. Massacre is almost nonexistent nowadays (haven't seen that played in a while)...

[Grand Inquisitor]

Engineered Explosives is pretty strong vs this deck as well

Speaking from experience, this play is actually rather tough to execute.  Spheres and wastelands make it difficult to get the 4 mana in one swoop, especially early.  Cavern makes draining into the play less likely.  Tapping and passing opens you up to the prospect of Silence negating the play.  With Mayor, the 3 drops and bob, it's just not as easy to profit from this line as you'd expect (granted sometimes there's very satisfying pops @2).

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Spheres do nothing to slow EE down, assuming you are playing EE properly when faced against spheres. And my landstill lists are running 26 mana sources so this isn't an issue...

Early game isn't won by EE, its won by mental misstep, fow, mana drain, lightning bolt, swords, and standstill to stay ahead. EE is the icening on the cake...

I have tested against this humans deck on cockatrice enough, and EE is a play that happens often. It is less effective when the board consists of many different CMC creatures, that is where knight is good because if I choose to EE at 3 the 2 drops can overwhelm. So I can say from testing against this deck I would disagree with you. This might be because we are testing different lists with a different removal suite...

[serracollector]

Also you can Mana Drain still, and you still get the mana from the spell, it just isn't countered it cast from caverns.

[Guli]

EE is tricky but can get the job done. But be aware that Mayor can be tricky as well like GI points out AND that there are Revokers in the deck and that I don't have to over commit. I also see Noble, SOFI and Glowrider at different casting costs. You would have to time it nearly perfectly and you would have to get the cards you need. I predict a tight and fun game, just as it should be.

Storm how is your list doing against land still variations?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I can tell you first hand me and storm have played some tight/good matches. He probably took more then half of them when I first saw the deck...but now with creatures a fair amount of my meta game my landstill lists have been packing more creature removal I feel as though I have the edge in the matchup. This due to experience playing against it and a good amount of hate...