Human Ingenuity

[Guli]

Guys, I was thinking the other day.

Would Cartel Aristocrat be viable as a hard to kill Human and to finish games that went into the red zone? Being able to kill bridges makes the dredge match up interesting as well. With wasteland strategies alongside Thalia, Aristocrat gives yet another edge against dredge.

But the most important application would be to combine the card with Preacher (another human). You steel a creature and then sac it away for Aristocrat. I did not look into other options, but this 'take control and sacrifice' mechanic got me thinking..

[brianpk80]

Guys, I was thinking the other day.

Would Cartel Aristocrat be viable as a hard to kill Human and to finish games that went into the red zone? Being able to kill bridges makes the dredge match up interesting as well. With wasteland strategies alongside Thalia, Aristocrat gives yet another edge against dredge.

But the most important application would be to combine the card with Preacher (another human). You steel a creature and then sac it away for Aristocrat. I did not look into other options, but this 'take control and sacrifice' mechanic got me thinking..

The extra utility v. Dredge doesn't concern me too much because it's already prepared for that match-up.  As people often say, Dredge is very manageable if one takes the time to figure it out, prepare, and engage properly.  It's true and Cavern Humans already gets a check in that box.  

Meddling Mage would be a better fit.  

[Stormanimagus]

Yeah, Guli, I would personally test shops more than Dredge. That is the big question mark IMO. I tested about 10 real life games against Martello with a friend of mine recently and the match-up is a dog fight though I came out on top about 60/40 overall. A card I tested out in the SB as a 4-of was Phyrexian Metamorph. The card was very VERY helpful in the matchup at copying crucibles as well as my own flipped mayors. I also like how metamorph just crushes the aggro mirror should you ever face that. It can also clone stuff like Glowrider to increase a lock or a Griselbrand to be just as good as a Fiend Hunter in that situation. The 4 cmc can be a pain with bob, but now I run 3 maindeck D. Shaman and I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with it. For reference to those who can't read my mind, here's my most recent updated list based on testing:

Land (23):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze Of Ith

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Grafdigger’s Cage

Enchantments (3):
3 Stony Silence

Creatures (25):
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mayor Of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary


Sideboard
1 Karakas
3 Rest in Peace
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Devout Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stony Silence
3 Glowrider


Yes, Guli, Stony still gets the nod over Phyrexian Revoker. I can see Revoker having a place in a metagame littered with only Aggro and Metalworker, but I'm just not seeing that metagame as likely so I think Stony is the better overall choice as it hits key cards we need to answer all at the same time. My short list of Stony pwnage is:

Martello:

Forgemaster
Hellkite
Karn
Ratchet Bomb
Their mana

Oath:

Uh, their mana?
Memory Jar
Sensei's Top
TV/Key if they run it

I think it is important to note here that Oath is the combo of our day and it is absolutely essential to have game vs. combo. Revoker doesn't help our fight too much as it triggers oath. I know we can name Brand, but then we toe a very thin line that can end in a simple Burning Wish into Shattering Spree into I win with a 7/7 flying lifelinker. Oh, and if it wasn't obvious, they can still attack with Brand underneath a Revoker. So yeah, Revoker ain't really going to cut it there. Stony makes me feel like I have an edge vs. combo. Not running it makes me feel like the huge dog. Simple as that.

Tezz:

TV/Key and their mana

Landstill:

EE

I just think Stony is so much better than Revoker most of the time, and with 7 mana dudes I am not as scared of it shutting me off as I used to be. I run 22 lands and 13 mana accel. I think I'm good on mana.

Also, I'm giving Devout Witness a shot. I feel like we need repeatable targeted removal for shops. Doesn't hurt that Witness can come in vs. Oath as a way to nuke Oath.

-Storm

[xouman]

Of course stony silence is way better stopping mana, while being able to stop vault, top, and to a lesser extent, forgemaster, hellkite, memory jar or EE. Besides is MUCH harder to get rid of, that's the best of it imho.

But revoker is easier to cast (W can be tricky), does not affect 6 own artifact pieces, is better in multiples, stops Jace (that's really important), tezz, welder, and lots of creatures like yours (noble, Deathrite, qasali,kotr...). I'm not telling revoker is better at all, but in most of my decks i prefer revoker over SS (well, i don't use to play white lol)

Metamorph is one of my favourite cards. it's a bit slow, but is not affected by golem and it's an out to any tinker robot, opponent creatures or just double a creature other than thalia. I have even copied an opponent Tangle in specific scenarios, copied snapcasters to replay bolts, copied vendillion to kill it, SFM to search for lonely SOFI, Jitte to kill it... and of course batterskull. Of course copying crucible is one of the best utilities, last saturday I copied a T1 crucible and the game was mine

BTW haven't you thought about playing your own crucible? or just loam? Big CA, slow but with SS/thalia a recursive strip is GG

[brianpk80]

Stony Silence is also important in the Landstill match because the Factory self-pump is how they negate the profitability of your attack phase and make it more difficult to hit their Jace.  Devout Witness seems good in theory but I've never had it work out well in practice.  YMMV.  

The mana base is so close to 4 colors that I wonder if Time Walk and Ancestral Recall belong in there.  I know Cavern and Knight of the Reliquary demand certain accommodations to the mana base so I'll defer to your experience with the build.   It looks pretty aggressive.  

[Stormanimagus]

Of course stony silence is way better stopping mana, while being able to stop vault, top, and to a lesser extent, forgemaster, hellkite, memory jar or EE. Besides is MUCH harder to get rid of, that's the best of it imho.

But revoker is easier to cast (W can be tricky), does not affect 6 own artifact pieces, is better in multiples, stops Jace (that's really important), tezz, welder, and lots of creatures like yours (noble, Deathrite, qasali,kotr...). I'm not telling revoker is better at all, but in most of my decks i prefer revoker over SS (well, i don't use to play white lol)

Metamorph is one of my favourite cards. it's a bit slow, but is not affected by golem and it's an out to any tinker robot, opponent creatures or just double a creature other than thalia. I have even copied an opponent Tangle in specific scenarios, copied snapcasters to replay bolts, copied vendillion to kill it, SFM to search for lonely SOFI, Jitte to kill it... and of course batterskull. Of course copying crucible is one of the best utilities, last saturday I copied a T1 crucible and the game was mine

BTW haven't you thought about playing your own crucible? or just loam? Big CA, slow but with SS/thalia a recursive strip is GG

One big reason I don't want my own revokers in the deck, especially vs. shops, is that now I just gave the a juicy target to Metamorph nailing my Noble, D. Shaman, Pridemage, Knight, or Devout Witness. I don't want to hand it to them. I want them to have to draw their own Revokers.

W can be tricky? I specifically designed this version of the deck such that white WOULDN'T be tricky. I have 7 Mana Elves that all produce white and a mox and a lotus and 5 Fetchlands and 4 Plains and a Horizon Canopy. That's like 19 mana producers that make white by turn 2. So far it has rarely been an issue. In fact, against various blue/tezz you almost don't want to be dropping turn 1 Stony cause then they won't be tipping their hand as to how many moxen they have. If you simply go turn 1 land on the play or turn 1 Cavern into Noble now they may feel more compelled to drop their hand of jewelry turn 1 and provided they don't win on the spot you now have all the info you need to go for turn 2 Stony being more confident it will resolve and actually hose them.

Stony Silence is also important in the Landstill match because the Factory self-pump is how they negate the profitability of your attack phase and make it more difficult to hit their Jace.  Devout Witness seems good in theory but I've never had it work out well in practice.  YMMV.  

The mana base is so close to 4 colors that I wonder if Time Walk and Ancestral Recall belong in there.  I know Cavern and Knight of the Reliquary demand certain accommodations to the mana base so I'll defer to your experience with the build.   It looks pretty aggressive.  

For consistency I have not found splashing blue to be worth it. It really ruins the manabase to accommodate blue and I'm very happy with being able to run 2 basics main. They fix a lot of issues the deck had had to early wastelock + revoker on our mana dudes. I just don't think the gains are enough to make up for the losses. Besides, we are a fish deck. We need power in copies of bombs in our deck, and adding blue for Time Walk and Recall would force us to cut on those numbers somewhere. This deck is a hugely delicate balance and I feel that adding blue would disrupt that balance.

-Storm

[Guli]

DP

[Guli]

I think Stony Silence is a good choice. It is less important to be able to answer Jace with Revoker. And against Noble Bant or Shaman BUG lists, it is not that essential to stop their mana dudes, tempo and board position and cards are more crucial there. Dark Confidant and Knight seem more key in that match up. Tempo can mean different things in different match ups. I think having the most threats on board, racing them faster, and generating card advantage win games against aggro.

So with Caverns aroound and the high creature count, it is very hard for blue decks to really use Jace easily. The problem is a black lotus turn 1 Jace, but even then I played through that many times with Caverns/Mox and a bear. They aren't making card advantage, and if they do use the BS ability, you can use your bears to get rid of the PW.

[Stormanimagus]

Methinks thou dost quote thyself? 

Anyhoo, I'm glad you've finally come around to Stony Silence for the time being. It really is our most potent out to combo and I can assure you that there is probably not a card they fear more than it (other than maybe Trini into Crucible waste lock?)

I lot of greedy Burning Oath lists actually run like 0 outs to a resolved Stony. How awful is that?

-Storm

[Guli]

Methinks thou dost quote thyself? 

Anyhoo, I'm glad you've finally come around to Stony Silence for the time being. It really is our most potent out to combo and I can assure you that there is probably not a card they fear more than it (other than maybe Trini into Crucible waste lock?)

I lot of greedy Burning Oath lists actually run like 0 outs to a resolved Stony. How awful is that?

-Storm

Your list has a different mana base, so I think Stony is fine there. I have played a lot with Stony Silence, the card is pretty powerful, it IS Null rod but harder to kill. The harder to cast part is, apparently, not an issue for you, so go for it.


So cockatrice.de is shut down for the time being, due to legal issues. I made an account on http://www.woogerworks.com/cockatrice/registrationpage.php  you can log in with cockatrice software by using this server instead of the usual one: play.woogerworks.com.

See ya!

[xouman]

Wow, with 19 white mana sources and so many outs to jace, I agree that Stony silence is probably better than revoker. The fact revoker can be metamorphed has always troubled me, and against oath/burning tendrils Stony is way better.

[Stormanimagus]

Wow, with 19 white mana sources and so many outs to jace, I agree that Stony silence is probably better than revoker. The fact revoker can be metamorphed has always troubled me, and against oath/burning tendrils Stony is way better.

Well my "outs" to jace are really just dudes if I don't run revokers, but I think the exalted mechanic helps matters a lot. The fact that I run 7 exalted men means that if I have 2-3 men down on the table they are going to have a harder time keeping me from killing jace (various combos of 2 exalted dudes).

-Storm

[Guli]

Another top 4 by Mayor Fish!

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10287&iddeck=74972

Interesting list, especially the singleton SFM and Skull.

[brianpk80]

Another top 4 by Mayor Fish!

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10287&iddeck=74972

Interesting list, especially the singleton SFM and Skull.

That was me; there should be a 'B' in the first name.  Due to a shipping error, I had to put the rest of the deck and sideboard together on site the day of the event so there are a few loose ends.  It should look more like this:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Meddling Mage
3 Fiend Hunter
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

3 Stony Silence

1 Ancestral Recall
3 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares

4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
3 Windswept Heath
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

SB: 2 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Porcelain Legionnaire
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Mishra's Factory
SB: 1 Wasteland

The Factories were very helpful.  The idea was to have an uncounterable & un-Sphere-able trump to Jaces & Golems, and using Factories helped me understand why Landstill and Terra Nova decks are doing so well.  I like that they survive anti-Fish mass removal and of course aren't hit by Jace's -1 ability.  Also, Factories in Fish often get exalted. 

After 4 Dark Confidants and 1 Ancestral, I usually want a few more CA, so I added 1 Stoneforge Mystic & a Batterskull.  I didn't add the whole suite of Swords/Jitte because it takes up too many slots and doesn't work with Stony Silence.

I didn't want Time Walk.  It's not good with Thalia, SS, and Cavern, it's not good against Workshop, and it leads to bad mulligan decisions.  Once in a while it's helpful but that's a pro outweighed by too many cons. 

I'm on the fence with the Bayou.  It's for hands that have a Noble, a Dark Confidant, and a fetchland but no Cavern or City.   

Meddling Mage was excellent throughout the day.  I avoid running 4 because sometimes drawing nothing but Nobles and Meddling Mages can seem like running out of gas. 

[Guli]

I love your innovation of Mishra's Factory in Mayor Fish (that is how we call it now?). I redesigned my version to integrate them. And I have a higher land count now, because I can see factory as a free 3/3 bear with all the goodies you mentioned (can't be jaced, can't be countered) but it also helps as an additional mana source.

I mentioned this before, Preacher. The card solves a lot of the 'vintage' problems AND offers that 'board control' we talked about. Mayor Fish is great but really needs some powerful engine to control other creatures because there is no direct removal. Also there is this thing I never really mentioned before but is pretty important, you always want to deal some damage each turn. In a deck with high creature count, 30+, it would be very bad to 'skip' a combat phase. In the early turns this usually is not an issue, because the deck gets out a lot bears and you can swing in rather easily. But after a while, it might become a race (against any deck out there) and to have a card like Cartel Aristocrat around swings the game around in your favor. You can use it against Jace, Removal, Pyroclasm, etc. You can use it defensively. It dominates with Preacher. You can use it in the offense to finish them off, it acts like time walk there, giving them less turns to respond. This last one is not to be underestimated, since the thing can be a 4/4 or 5/5 very easily. Against Workshop, you can use it to block with a random bear against wurmcoil. You declare blockers but sacrifice the bear. Same idea against Batterskull if somehow your Cartel is tapped (for racing). Otherwise you can block and pro black for example. In game two, Cartel can be replaced by Kataki in the Workshop match up. Kataki is also a sac outlet for Preacher.

Furthermore, I have redesigned my Human deck to fit in Gaddock Teeg. Since Mayor and Cartel are also advisors, it is a possibiliy to set the type to Advisors with Cavern. Obviously, it is easier to bypass a drain with this deck than it is to bypass Force. So it is ok if you start the game with Cavern (advisors), exile ESG for green, turn 1 Gaddock Teeg. You can follow it up with Thalia later, since Thalia is easier to cast and teeg still protects Thalia.

Lastly, with Factory and Cartel, I think 1 Crucible is good in main, with a second in the SB.

4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Ancient Ziggurat
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Preacher
3 Cartel Aristocrat

1 Crucible of Worlds

SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 3 War Priest of Thune
SB: 3 Trygon Predator
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

[brianpk80]

I love your innovation of Mishra's Factory in Mayor Fish (that is how we call it now?). I redesigned my version to integrate them.

Thank you. 

I do understand the utility of the Cartel Aristocrat with Preacher and the configuration naturally brings some new possibilities to the table.  The problem I see is that the configuration has strength in aggro-control mirrors and Bridge disruption but sacrifices speed v. Tinker (where Preacher's summoning sickness and restrictions could mean a game loss, contrasted w. Fiend Hunter's more immediate effect) and the Aristocrat cannot grant protection from artifact creatures. 

Part of the appeal may be a sense that using Cavern->Advisor for Gaddock Teeg doesn't render the Cavern useless afterwards aside from Mayors.  Would Cartel Aristocrat be a good choice without Preachers and/or Teeg?  The unblockability v. colored creatures has use, but when it competes with options like Meddling Mage, Ethersworn, Knight of the Reliuquary, and others, I don't know if it's the best call. 

[Guli]

I love your innovation of Mishra's Factory in Mayor Fish (that is how we call it now?). I redesigned my version to integrate them.

Thank you. 

I do understand the utility of the Cartel Aristocrat with Preacher and the configuration naturally brings some new possibilities to the table.  The problem I see is that the configuration has strength in aggro-control mirrors and Bridge disruption but sacrifices speed v. Tinker (where Preacher's summoning sickness and restrictions could mean a game loss, contrasted w. Fiend Hunter's more immediate effect) and the Aristocrat cannot grant protection from artifact creatures. 

Part of the appeal may be a sense that using Cavern->Advisor for Gaddock Teeg doesn't render the Cavern useless afterwards aside from Mayors.  Would Cartel Aristocrat be a good choice without Preachers and/or Teeg?  The unblockability v. colored creatures has use, but when it competes with options like Meddling Mage, Ethersworn, Knight of the Reliuquary, and others, I don't know if it's the best call. 

Cartel won me games were neither of those you mention would have. The reason behind this is that you already run the best hate, namely Thalia and Gaddock. Workshop match up is strengthened with Mishra's remember? When playing against decks that pack removal and bobs, you tend to get outplayed by their removal, but they are losing a lot life due to your beats and their fetching, bob, force of will, missteps, and so on. Cartel is that card that will prevent capitalization on the card advantage they made. Very concretely, I have won more games due to opponents dying to their own Dark Confidant because Cartel has done that unblockable damage. You need a strong aggro plan, because your thalia, teeg, revokers, wasteland strategy is strong against combo and control. With Mayor, Mishra's, Cartel, Crucible your game against landstill also improves a lot, favoring the human deck. The trick is that it works against landstill AND other aggro decks. Dredge is a bonus. The fact that it doesn't do much against pure combo is irrelevant, you have other slots to fight that match up.

[tito del monte]

I love your innovation of Mishra's Factory in Mayor Fish (that is how we call it now?). I redesigned my version to integrate them.

Thank you. 

Out of curiosity, have you tried taking a leaf out of Terra Nova's book and playing Mutavault's instead? Handily gets pumped by Mayor whichever side he's flipped to.

[Guli]

I love your innovation of Mishra's Factory in Mayor Fish (that is how we call it now?). I redesigned my version to integrate them.

Thank you.  

Out of curiosity, have you tried taking a leaf out of Terra Nova's book and playing Mutavault's instead? Handily gets pumped by Mayor whichever side he's flipped to.

I will let Brian answer this question, I asked him the same question.

I tuned the list a little further:

4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Scrubland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire

3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Preacher
3 Cartel Aristocrat

1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall

SB: 4 War Priest of Thune
SB: 1 True Believer
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Planar Void
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2 Path to Exile

[serracollector]

if your adding blue time walk is an auto include.  Whats a better card that says "give all your critters double strike, draw a card" for 2?  Not to mention Bob draws, extra waste efx, etc etc.

Anyways, I would go with mutavault.  As mention bonus either way with mayor, and they aren't affected by stony silence if you include it in your 75. Also you can sac it to cartel as a human also, and recur it with Crucible.  Maybe cute, maybe game winning.  Anyways, yea muta over factory. Also I found phyrexian tower or High Market to be good with Preacher.

Also I like how cartel and mayor are advisors.  Definitely makes teeg more acceptable for caverns.  I really like it.

Would lotus petal be better than 1 ESG? Gives any color, gets under lodestone. And I doubt chalice for 0 is best option for MUD to go for. Also helps enable turn 1 stps for lodestone/confidant/metalworkers etc, or waste + stp which can easily be game crippling.


say -1 ESG +1 Petal, -1 Swords to Plow +1 Time Walk.  3 swords, all your own creatures, "invincible" cartels with muta and crucible, and 2 preacher I think you should be fine with 3 stp, Walk is just amazing in any creature deck.

[brianpk80]

Out of curiosity, have you tried taking a leaf out of Terra Nova's book and playing Mutavault's instead? Handily gets pumped by Mayor whichever side he's flipped to.

That's a good question.  Mutavault gets pumped by Mayor and is immune to artifact hate including Stony Silence/Null Rod.  It also has fringe utility with a few niche creatures that benefit from having multiple Humans in play (Devout Chaplain is one that's semi-decent).  On the flip side, it can't block and self-pump, which makes it a less reliable response to Lodestone Golem.  So it's a judgment call on what's more important and I think right now Factory is the better choice. 

if your adding blue time walk is an auto include.  Whats a better card that says "give all your critters double strike, draw a card" for 2?  Not to mention Bob draws, extra waste efx, etc etc.

The problem with Time Walk is that so much in the deck works against it.  First, very little blue is added.  Meddling Mage can use Cavern mana and then there's Ancestral Recall.  Mental Misstep and Mindbreak Trap are free.  What happens with Cavern decks is that any blue opponent ends up with a hand of useless countermagic and Time Walk as a target is a free giveaway.  With Ancestral Recall, you can at least explore more options to time it optimally so that Thalia cuts off their countermagic.  That can't be done as well with Time Walk.  Secondly, the casting cost of Time Walk is going to be 2U half the time without support from the deck's main rainbow land and with access to artifact mana compromised and land drops sacrificed.  By the time there's already a Bob, Mayor, and Thalia on the table, Time Walk looks suspiciously win-more.  Finally, the card is usually terrible in the Workshop matchup if you can cast it "3U: Draw a Card and Tap All Your Permanents Again During Your Upkeep."  It's only good in aggro-control mirrors, v. Oath, and v. Dredge.  Possible sideboard inclusion but I don't like it maindeck.  YMMV. 

The reason behind this is that you already run the best hate, namely Thalia and Gaddock. Workshop match up is strengthened with Mishra's remember? When playing against decks that pack removal and bobs, you tend to get outplayed by their removal, but they are losing a lot life due to your beats and their fetching, bob, force of will, missteps, and so on.

It's an efficiently priced beater with 4 relevant effects (anti-removal, unblocakble, Bridge removal, and sac outlet) that interplays well with Preacher and can salvage a Cavern used on Gaddock Teeg.  Maybe it is the right call for your current build.  The issue I see is that being adequate isn't the same as being great, and being great still isn't necessarily the same as being optimal.  That said, I don't know if it's possible to have an objectively "optimal" build of any Fish deck and tailoring it to the pilot's play style as important a consideration as any.  I'm more partial to control styles and preventing broken plays so this card hasn't jumped out at me yet, though I recognize its aggressive uses. 

[Guli]

Cartel has also held ground against Stoneforge Mystic getting a Batterskull. You turn the advantage of bigger numbers into something concrete. All your bears become very relevant blockers that can be sacrificed before damage.

I don't know if you assessment of time walk is entirely correct. I didn't add it because I don't want to cut the 4th Sword to Plowshares. Everything else is tight.

You are totally right that building a mayor fish version is figuring out how to make things work within a certain context. There are staples in the deck, but the extra cards you are adding push you into a certain direction. For example, in this human advisor version of Mayor fish, Gaddock Teeg is brought back alive, the ESG are maindeck, Mishra's are doing important work, and Cartel fits in. But no matter what your build is, I think you will always have to balance out some design necessities. In my opinion these are:

1.Hate
- Depending on the meta game, you need a certain amount of hate bears against the power blue combo decks (this is the big difference with other 'aggro or fish' decks, they run counters and ala tarmo bears)

2. Board control
- Removal that works, this means both on normal bears and Tinker/Oath fatties
- In this kind of denial deck, you probably need about 6 cards minimum. (so I can't cut a STP)

3. Attrition
- Card advantage, this can be direct or indirect (virtual). In this deck its Bob, Caverns, Preacher, Crucible, Teeg, etc.
- Don't ignore the mirror match up, it is never an easy game

4. Specific metagame issues
- Be ready for the Workshop match up with a specific plan
- Be ready for Dredge and Oath

[Guli]

4 Cavern of Souls
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Meddling Mage
4 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Wingcrafter
3 Dark Confidant

2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Mental Misstep

SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 War Priest of Thune

My latest attempt, a different approach, from a pure beat down to a more counter/cat version. Comments welcome.

[Stormanimagus]

I don't think Daze will work for you that well as you have are running 9 lands that don't support it. That is just too many in my view. I think there are other counters that could fill that slot just fine (some number of traps, pierces or flusters). Daze is obviously one of the best tempo plays out there but are you really getting the island to bounce every time you need it? Neat list though.

-Storm

[Guli]

I don't think Daze will work for you that well as you have are running 9 lands that don't support it. That is just too many in my view. I think there are other counters that could fill that slot just fine (some number of traps, pierces or flusters). Daze is obviously one of the best tempo plays out there but are you really getting the island to bounce every time you need it? Neat list though.

-Storm

I don't see the problem with 5 fetch, 2 Trop, 2 Tundra, 1 Sea. But I don't really envy the idea of straying away from pure beatdown. Nevertheless, these builds are also possible. Just wanted to share this list. I still consider the beatdown version my main deck.

[msg67183]

I know this might sound janky, and it probably is, but in a creature deck, how does Unified Will sound? It's a hard counter that doesn't require double blue or an island or another blue card, just a thought.

[brianpk80]

I know this might sound janky, and it probably is, but in a creature deck, how does Unified Will sound? It's a hard counter that doesn't require double blue or an island or another blue card, just a thought.

It wouldn't be good for a lot of reasons.  Decks like these generally only run countermagic that's free or attached to a body.  Thalia in play means it costs 2U.  It can't be relied on to counter anything v. Workshop, Dredge, the Mirror, and it would be humiliating to have an opponent flash in a Snapcaster Mage in response. 

Guli, that is an interesting list indeed.  I'm guessing the flying Soulbond is primed to make sure Edric and Thada Adel connect.  Daze is a very good spell at the moment but I don't know how well the mana base supports it, as Storm said.  It may also interfere with getting up to 3 mana second turn to play an Edric/Thada. 

I had relatives over this weekend who play Standard and they mentioned some deck that aims to play Turn 1 Champion of the Parish, Turn 2 Burning Tree Emissary followed by Mayor.  It's clearly a very fast clock for Fish (Turn 4 with no acceleration) and I wonder if there's anything to learn from it and integrate.   

[Guli]

I checked the mana base of Mike in the Noble Fish thread. It has 1 island more, but I do run more acceleration. Where do these concerns come from?

I do like the tempo play the Emissary offers. Maybe sleeve up a list and try it?

[serracollector]

Thats funny I just recently was trying a Vintage Aggor List after seeing a standard player drop champ, Burning trees and a mayor turn 2, and swing for the win turn 3.

I will post the list later.

[brianpk80]

Thats funny I just recently was trying a Vintage Aggor List after seeing a standard player drop champ, Burning trees and a mayor turn 2, and swing for the win turn 3.

I will post the list later.

That is quite the coincidence.  Def. post the list.