Human Ingenuity

[Guli]

This is my new Human version, it looks a lot more like the original one.

4 City of Brass
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Ghost Quarter

4 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Glowrider
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant

3 Fiend Hunter
3 Trygon Predator

SB: 2 Royal Assassin
SB: 4 War Priest of Thune
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 1 Horizon Canopy
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 Gideon's Lawkeeper

The idea is to lay down a lot pressure on the mana vs shop and try to get a mana advantage with the noble, shaman and leylones (crucible). Then try to get in a Mayor to deal with golems and at least 1 Hunter or Predator for whatever slips trough that may cause problems. You get in some more of the lands, predator, shamans in game 2 to enforce this strategy.

The Leylines are maindeck because I believe that it is that one 'free' and 'ultra fast' hate humans need to survive the early games. Also for the mid game it shuts off a lot of other cards as well that might be problematic for Humans. I am thinking of Dredge, Crucible, Tarmogoyf, Y Will, Oath gets a hit too. Since the deck has spheres, revokers and wastelands to deny mana, and main deck Hunters, the deck is more or less prepared for Tinker. This is why I opt to use Leylines and not Chalice as the free disruption package. Also Leyline is turn 0, and this can keep you in the game before you cast down that turn 1 Thalia. Who knows how many of those new black hermit druid decks pop up? Better be prepared. I also love it that Leyline is not affected by your own spheres when you have it in opening hand. Mental Mistep is another card that could be seen as a free disruption spell. I think it is good, but I find Leylone more durable and more damaging to the opponent. I forgot to mention the impact against Snapcaster decks, obviously that is a bonus too.

When playing blue, you try to get in as much spheres and mana denial as you can. If you see a heavy artifact acceleration package, bring in rods.

Humans was all about trying to win the mana denial war and then deal with whatever slips through. Usually mayor deals with the small threats like Golem or whetever other aggro element. But I think with Hunter and Predator you can deal with a lot more 'post early pressure'. With the spheres and denial you try to generate a net, they try to bypass and play their bomb, then you deal with it, leaving them in a deadlock.

My regards,
Guli

[StanleyAugust]

I don't like the idea of Leylines with Deathrite maindeck. How has that been working out?

[Stormanimagus]

Guli, this is actually a very interesting list:

My questions are:

1. How does not having a guy with a larger than 3 butt work for you? Have you been considering some of the cards we've discussed (Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for example)

2. Do you think you are no longer getting color screwed with the manabase?

3. How has Royal Assassin been? Where does he come in?

4. Since you aren't contending with Force of Will against most oath decks why are you running War Priest over say Qasali Pridemage?

5. Is Horizon Canopy truly a reliable replacement for the fetchland plan to fuel D. Shaman?

6. Why is Gideon's Lawkeeper not maindeck? It seems like far more of a maindeck effect to me (Tinker->Bot, Golems etc.)

Thanks for your answer in advance:

-Storm

[Guli]

Guli, this is actually a very interesting list:

My questions are:

1. How does not having a guy with a larger than 3 butt work for you? Have you been considering some of the cards we've discussed (Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for example)

2. Do you think you are no longer getting color screwed with the manabase?

3. How has Royal Assassin been? Where does he come in?

4. Since you aren't contending with Force of Will against most oath decks why are you running War Priest over say Qasali Pridemage?

5. Is Horizon Canopy truly a reliable replacement for the fetchland plan to fuel D. Shaman?

6. Why is Gideon's Lawkeeper not maindeck? It seems like far more of a maindeck effect to me (Tinker->Bot, Golems etc.)

Thanks for your answer in advance:

-Storm

1. I think the hunter and predator are 'fat' enough next to  a flipped Mayor. I don't want to run cards that are removal proof. I try to build in such a way that I invite them to use removal, because I will always have more threats than they have removal. I try to control aggro, and overwhelm control.

2. No, A lot lands, moxes, 4 Noble, 2 Deathrite, and more lands from SB with an extra Deathrite. The list should be able to generate the mana it needs to cast everything out consistently.

3. Assassin and Lawkeeper both come in against decks that tend to be aggro. It is like blue decks running Old Man.

4. Oath needs to be dealth with in a couple of ways, cards that deal with the creatures (Revoker, Fiend Hunter), cards that discourage casting Oath (predator), and cards that answer the Oath the first turns (War Priest). The strenght of War Priest has to do with Cavern of Souls. They can not counter the threat and they will lose the Oath. Also when you see decks using Enchantments that might hurt you, you bring in the War Priests. It is a very usefull SB card. You need to understand that War Priest are not competing, it is actually Pridemage and Trygon Predator that are competing, and I wanted Predator because:

-> The deck tries to put pressure the first turns with Leylines, Spheres, wastelands, Revokers, Bobs, and establishes acceleration and mana advantage. It can not stop everything during these fases of the game, but it does always slow down, cripple, screw with the opponent. I figured that Trygon and Fiend Hunter are the mid game to end game 3cc bombs you need AFTER you have done your initial pressure. Usually it is either going to be a creature that needs to be dealth with or an artifact/enchantment. Hunter and Predator track both these types of cards and finish them off. There is also an argument to be made for the flying, it comes in handy. Predator can give you several triggers, it just hangs over your human squad doing its own (important) thing.

5. It was an idea, and when you flood, it is nice, really nice, to cycle them. Shaman helps a lot with life loss and race wars. The deck now has 6 cards that directly hates out graveyards. And I love it, the way Leyline hits the board. Leyline + Thalia = nightmare for blue decks that want to use Y will or Snapcaster Mage. They are already hampered with Thalia, as if that was not enough, now they can't even use their graveyard. Shop and landstill are all about mana wars, you really don't want to fight against Crucible with 7 strips in main and 8 post board. You NEED and WANT leylines. You can argue that the card could be Rest in Peace, but Leyline is faster, and because you are like relatively slow early on and don't have Force of Will, I think Leyline should be picked here.

6. Lawkeeper could be maindeck but I see it as a 4 card package with Assasin. Tap and kill, simple as it is. And you can sometimes just bring in Lawkeeper to be extra safe versus Tinker. I think with the Hunters main deck, and all the mana denial, you should be able to answer a Tinker that doesn't resolve on turn 1. Golems are not answered by tappers, Golems are answered by burning their bridges. You kill the Workshops, shut off mana, islolate the Golems, then you let Mayor, Hunter or Predator deal with it. On occassion the Shaman will also help you regain some life, if the golem got in a couple hits (which is usually the case, you take some hits but focus on preventing further threats).

[brianpk80]

The list has strengths overall, but the suicide factor is concerning, with 7 ping lands and all of the high CMC Dark Confidant flips.  You already have a better g1 v. Dredge than most decks with the 8 Strip effects, first strikers, Deathrites, and 7 spheres.  And the Hermit Druid deck may fade into the background forever after last weekend so it might not ever need to be a concern.  So for graveyard effects, what you're going for mostly is preempting Crucible locks and interfering with Snapcasters & Y. Will.  That being the case, I would drop 1 Noble for a 3rd Deathrite Shaman and replace the Leylines with 2 Rest in Peace and 2 Ethersworn Canonist.  Afterwards, I'm thinking of ways to reduce exposure to Tinker.     

[Stormanimagus]

The list has strengths overall, but the suicide factor is concerning, with 7 ping lands and all of the high CMC Dark Confidant flips.  You already have a better g1 v. Dredge than most decks with the 8 Strip effects, first strikers, Deathrites, and 7 spheres.  And the Hermit Druid deck may fade into the background forever after last weekend so it might not ever need to be a concern.  So for graveyard effects, what you're going for mostly is preempting Crucible locks and interfering with Snapcasters & Y. Will.  That being the case, I would drop 1 Noble for a 3rd Deathrite Shaman and replace the Leylines with 2 Rest in Peace and 2 Ethersworn Canonist.  Afterwards, I'm thinking of ways to reduce exposure to Tinker.     

One does also have to consider that RIP totally negates D. Shaman, but yeah, point taken. I'm not sure I like maindeck leylines either, but I'd like to give Guli the benefit of the doubt and test em.

-Storm

[Guli]

The Leylines are not to stop crucible locks, they are there to keep them locked because crucible is no longer an option to recover or replay mishra's or other problem lands.

I think 2cc enchantments like RIP will get in the way of your sligh plan. You want to cast a bear every turn. There is no time to 'skip' a bear to cast a non creature. The only way to lay down this grave hate and your human spheres with revokers etc is to play with Leylines. I established after more than a year that this archetype wants to play more than 5 wastelands and does not want to play against Crucible or Snapcaster. Crucible counters the mana denial plan, and Snapcaster can reuse removal on your bears.

[StanleyAugust]

If the concern mainly is Snapcaster and Crucible, I'd rather maindeck Grafdigger's Cage to shut down Snapcaster and then rely on Deathrite - upping the count - to take care of Crucible. That way you cover two main issues, Oath and Tinker, as well.

[brianpk80]

If you brought the Metamorphs back, you could always copy the Crucible as well as have more maindeck answers to Tinker.  Is Deathrite enough to offset the suicide factor?  I've experimented with maindeck Leylines before and they're very awkward to cast, especially w. the self-imposed sphere effects.  

 

[Guli]

If the concern mainly is Snapcaster and Crucible, I'd rather maindeck Grafdigger's Cage to shut down Snapcaster and then rely on Deathrite - upping the count - to take care of Crucible. That way you cover two main issues, Oath and Tinker, as well.

It is not mainly, they all matter. But it is most importantly about Crucible and Flashing back cards for extra value.

[Guli]

If you brought the Metamorphs back, you could always copy the Crucible as well as have more maindeck answers to Tinker.  Is Deathrite enough to offset the suicide factor?  I've experimented with maindeck Leylines before and they're very awkward to cast, especially w. the self-imposed sphere effects.  

I think the deck is more than fine even if you topdeck a Leyline. Even if you can not cast it. The amount of virtual card advantage is a lot, making up for 1 dead draw easily. And well it is castable with a city and on color source like Deathrite, mox or lotus. The risk is worth it and it will not make the deck suffer badly. At most i think drawing a leyline will be annoying.

BTW:

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1701

Top 3!! Humans ftw!

[brianpk80]

There was another list with Mayor of Avabruck that came in first place in Vancouver very recently.  

Do you think Tormod's Crypt might accomplish the same objective of coming down quickly and deterring card advantage through graveyards while keeping the average CMC down for the Confidants?  

Also, do you remember when Workshop decks used a strategy of sideboarding out some Chalices when on the draw and boarding in more Tangle Wires because they have such different values on the play v. on the draw?  I wonder if there's anything we can learn from that and apply here.  

[Stormanimagus]

Personally Guli, I think Deathrite Shaman is better than Leyline of the Void at hating on Shops. It stops what you need it to stop (waste locks) while giving you access to more mana. I'd run 3-4 shaman before I'd even consider Leyline of the Void. I get your "sligh" argument, but I don't like the damage you are inflicting upon yourself with Bobs, Canopies, and Cities. I nearly lost to that very life loss in my first test game with the deck. I just don't see why Leyline is necessary when you could run more copies of a card that easily hoses waste-lock and Snapcaster and costs 1 mana.

I just think Leyline is not really filling a needed role here is all.

-Storm

[Guli]

The only concern you guys are having is 'what if I dont get it in opening hand'. I am 100% sure of that. If you don't get it in opening 7 (or after you mull), you will not be behind or anything. The deck can outlive topdecking a leyline. But if you do get a Leyline, your hand becomes 10x better. Your entire strategy gets a huge boost, and you don't have to invest anything extra more into it (no mana, no nothing).

Brian, I think that is taking the deck to the next level. Optimizing the sideboard and maindeck and counting in the die roll/starting or drawing...

Storm, I already exlpained what role Leyline is playing. The properties speed, free, independent are what does it for me. Shaman needs time and black mana and even then it will not even be close to what Leyline is doing in several match ups. Brian, crypt is a tactical solution, leyline is a strategical approach. Also, I don't want to suffer more against chalice 0.

[brianpk80]

My main concern isn't the dead draw.  My main concerns are the suicide factor, the Tinker vulnerability, and the question of whether there may be a more economical way of achieving the same objectives v. Crucible and YW/Snapcaster.  Frankly, I'm not entirely sure how threatening the latter should be with all of the mana denial and spheres.   But if it is a serious problem, Ethersworn received a big boost when Snapcasters became popular because it shuts them off entirely.  After that, the weakness to Tinker has me thinking of Clone effects & Gilded Drake (if we figure out a good way to mitigate the life loss problem overall) and the life loss makes me wish for Umezawa's Jitte, SfM-Batterskull, Nearheath Pilgrim, Vault of the Archangel, or anything really, cause it's that serious of an issue, IMO.   

[Guli]

My main concern isn't the dead draw.  My main concerns are the suicide factor, the Tinker vulnerability, and the question of whether there may be a more economical way of achieving the same objectives v. Crucible and YW/Snapcaster.  Frankly, I'm not entirely sure how threatening the latter should be with all of the mana denial and spheres.   But if it is a serious problem, Ethersworn received a big boost when Snapcasters became popular because it shuts them off entirely.  After that, the weakness to Tinker has me thinking of Clone effects & Gilded Drake (if we figure out a good way to mitigate the life loss problem overall) and the life loss makes me wish for Umezawa's Jitte, SfM-Batterskull, Nearheath Pilgrim, Vault of the Archangel, or anything really, cause it's that serious of an issue, IMO.   

I can solve the life loss issue, no problems. And Storm has issues with the mana base. I think these two remarks of you guys have merit and I will work on them.

About Leyline and the alternatives you are suggesting, Leyline hits almost everything out there and most importantly it hits both Workshop and Blue at the same time. In this context, Canonist can be defined as too narrow. I am not looking for another card, I want Leyline, it does exactly what I want. It is not about individual cards like Snapcaster Mage, or Y Will, or Crucible. The discussion needs to be elevated, it has to do with angles of disruption. My main angle is to disrupt them resource wise, by making their spells cost more and by shutting off mana sources. Another Angle is about board control, I try to use my first angle to make Mayor generate an army they can't deal with. Furthermore, more board control is brought in by the Hunters and Predators acting as removal tools. I believe the angle of graveyard hate pushes the deck into the next level.

If they would print a human that has something close to Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void printed on them, I could see it replace the Leylines. But then I would probably remove some slots and open up 4 slots for something that is free and fast. This can be Mental Misstep for example. So I hope I am more clear now, it is also about being able to burst out multiple threats, disruption elements in the first turns, and not just about having 'solutions' in the deck that you might not be able to cast anyway at the same time.

[serracollector]

Militant Dryad not good enough?  True it don't touch crucible, but its def fucks over Y win, and Snappies and Reanimator Dredge/Hermit combo. Oh, and its a 2/1 beat stick.  Just saying, I would run 4 Dryad Militant over 4 leyline at least maindeck in DUDES.dec

[brianpk80]

Militant Dryad not good enough?  True it don't touch crucible, but its def fucks over Y win, and Snappies and Reanimator Dredge/Hermit combo. Oh, and its a 2/1 beat stick.  Just saying, I would run 4 Dryad Militant over 4 leyline at least maindeck in DUDES.dec

That's another possibility.  Being non-Human may lead to awkward Cavern calls, but as a Soldier, it does at least share a type with Thalia.  It wouldn't get a Mayor benefit, but neither would the card it replaces, so that's ok. 

Originally I was thinking of Tormod's Crypt, which is "free and fast" but I swapped it out in my suggestions w. Rest in Peace which has a stronger effect.

In the "free and fast" category, we have Tormod's Crypt, Mental Misstep, Mindbreak Trap, Chalice of the Void, and the Leylines of Void, Sanctity, and Singularity (which has so many uses but unfortunately is a "nonbo" with Mayor). 

In the Tinker palette, there's Gideon's Lawkeeper, Aven Mindcensor, Leonin Arbiter, Meddling Mage, Azorius Guildmage, Stormscape Apprentice, Swords/Path, Hide/Seek, Metamorph, Phantasmal Image, Gilded Drake, Sakashima's Student, Stun Sniper, Shattering Blow, Fiend Hunter, Waterfront Bouncer, Chain of Vapor & variations, Hurkyl's Recall, Maze of Ith, Kor Haven, Magus of the Unseen, Goblin Welder, Kill Switch, Ensnaring Bridge, Jace/Liliana, and many more.

In life loss management, there's Deathrite, Umezawa's Jitte, SfM->Batterskull, CMC reductions for Bob, Ancient Ziggurats, Nearheath Pilgrim, Sword of W&P, Sword of L&S, Vault of the Archangel, Swords to Plowshares, Nature's Claim, and more oblique experimental options.

I was wondering if maybe the impulse to include Leylines was motivated in part by the brief popularity of the Hermit Druid deck which is now being avoided after performing terribly in a tournament.  It's not that including Leyline of the Void is a terrible or unreasonable idea; it's that I wonder if, with so many building blocks available, something more compact and versatile can emerge that meets the same objectives Leyline was serving. 

[Stormanimagus]

Guli, I'm telling in you from the limited testing I've done with 3 D. Shaman they are almost always the better answer to Crucible lock and slow blue decks that run Snapcaster Mage. The only time I see Leyline shining OVER a Shaman is against fast combo relying on the gy (Dredge and Hermit Druid) and you already have plans for those decks out of the board (Rest in Peace, GD Cage, or some mix of other stuff). I mean, I've also tested Shaman out vs. Landstill and it is such a house there as well. It is a small investment card that they MUST deal with or lose to it in the long game. I didn't even think it would be that great vs. Landstill, but boy was I wrong. I'm sorry, but taking up 4 slots that could be spent on something better just doesn't seem worth it to me.

-Storm

[StanleyAugust]

I agree with Storm. Deathrite Shaman is enough to deal with Crucible imo and running 4 Deathrite isn't overkill imo.
Regarding Dryad Militant, his ability simply isn't good enough, though it's nice that it comes with a 2/1 body.

[Stormanimagus]

I was only going to posit for an exercise in "all aboard the jank-mobile": has anyone considered going the shamans route and running a 4 Deathrite Shaman and 4 Vampire Hexmage? To get even more janky has anyone thought of going GB/w with such a deck and including a couple copies of Doran, The Siege Tower? He seems to fit very nicely with a 1/2 body and maybe even some Trygons would go in such a list? Anyone have ideas on how to maybe make Doran a Viable option? I like him against Landstill cause he's super hard to kill. He also Kills a Lodestone Golem and lives to tell the tale. That is important consideration I should say.

-Storm

[Guli]

I upped the shaman's to 3 by cutting mox ruby. But it is not enough, need additional answers to grave play. Shaman is a slow answer and only 3 slots. Plus it gets hit by Counter Magic more often because it is not shielded by Cavern. I like to have Shaman around, but you can not rely on it to do the job just on itself.

I don't understand why you guys 'think' it is enough. I assure you, it is not. Don't forget that Leyline is uncounterable. This matters.

Another option is to play 4x Leyline and use the Knight mana base. Knight with Bog is as fast as a Shaman right? And Leyline does not make Knight smaller. Would that be workable?

[Stormanimagus]

I upped the shaman's to 3 by cutting mox ruby. But it is not enough, need additional answers to grave play. Shaman is a slow answer and only 3 slots. Plus it gets hit by Counter Magic more often because it is not shielded by Cavern. I like to have Shaman around, but you can not rely on it to do the job just on itself.

I don't understand why you guys 'think' it is enough. I assure you, it is not. Don't forget that Leyline is uncounterable. This matters.

Another option is to play 4x Leyline and use the Knight mana base. Knight with Bog is as fast as a Shaman right? And Leyline does not make Knight smaller. Would that be workable?

I've tried a similar config out the sb in my knight list and it just doesn't work that well. The issue, in my opinion, generally with LoTV is that you don't want to draw 2 or 3 copies over the course of the game (especially if you had one in the opening 7). It's the virtual card disadvantage of ripping the 2nd or 3rd one of these when you badly BADLY needed business. That is a weakness of the card I simply can't overlook.

Guli, why are you SOOO concerned with Snapcaster in Blue? Just Deny their mana and that tends to work at stopping Snapcasters in the mid-game. Will Snapcaster beat you on occassion? Sure. But I'd rather have better draws overall than a narrow answer to 1 card. I just don't think Leyline is a great fit in this deck. It's sorta a gut call here, but I just don't think it "works."

-Storm

[brianpk80]

I was only going to posit for an exercise in "all aboard the jank-mobile": has anyone considered going the shamans route and running a 4 Deathrite Shaman and 4 Vampire Hexmage? To get even more janky has anyone thought of going GB/w with such a deck and including a couple copies of Doran, The Siege Tower? He seems to fit very nicely with a 1/2 body and maybe even some Trygons would go in such a list? Anyone have ideas on how to maybe make Doran a Viable option? I like him against Landstill cause he's super hard to kill. He also Kills a Lodestone Golem and lives to tell the tale. That is important consideration I should say.

I heard rumors of a Shaman deck w. Doran but haven't seen the list.  Gorilla Shaman, Vampire Nighthawk, and Ulvenwald Tracker are all Shamans and the latter two have an obvious interplay at board control.  Additionally, with some Ancient Tombs, Mana Crypt, and other acceleration, you could always branch out into Treefolk.     Couldn't resist. 

Bears noting that Heartwood Storyteller is as broken as ever and there is a Treefolk Qasali Pridemage. 

For Landstill, Thrun, the Last Troll sounds like a better play than Doran, the Siege Tower.  Porcelain Leg. is a better trump for Golems. 

[Samoht]

I was only going to posit for an exercise in "all aboard the jank-mobile": has anyone considered going the shamans route and running a 4 Deathrite Shaman and 4 Vampire Hexmage? To get even more janky has anyone thought of going GB/w with such a deck and including a couple copies of Doran, The Siege Tower? He seems to fit very nicely with a 1/2 body and maybe even some Trygons would go in such a list? Anyone have ideas on how to maybe make Doran a Viable option? I like him against Landstill cause he's super hard to kill. He also Kills a Lodestone Golem and lives to tell the tale. That is important consideration I should say.

I heard rumors of a Shaman deck w. Doran but haven't seen the list.  Gorilla Shaman, Vampire Nighthawk, and Ulvenwald Tracker are all Shamans and the latter two have an obvious interplay at board control.  Additionally, with some Ancient Tombs, Mana Crypt, and other acceleration, you could always branch out into Treefolk.     Couldn't resist. 

Bears noting that Heartwood Storyteller is as broken as ever and there is a Treefolk Qasali Pridemage. 

For Landstill, Thrun, the Last Troll sounds like a better play than Doran, the Siege Tower.  Porcelain Leg. is a better trump for Golems. 

It is a BGW Shaman deck. He claims a good Shop MU, but I haven't watched. I know he's had a hard time with Blue.

[Stormanimagus]

Actually, I think the best home for D. Shaman may be in a Gush Gro list. Remember that deck? It like uh, used to be a thing? What about something like this:

Land (15):
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Island

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet

Enchantments (1):
1 Fastbond

Planeswalkers (1):
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures (12):
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Quirion Dryad
3 Trygon Predator
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Instants (20):
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
4 Gush
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (6):
1 Tinker
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will


Sideboard (15):
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Thrun, The Last Troll
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Mindbreak Trap

Seems like this would give Landstill some major fits and the Thruns would just ensure that games 2 and 3. Gush hasn't been played in so long that I'm not sure how this would fare in the meta now, but it's an interesting thought experiment to plug Deathrite into such a deck and see if that can fly. Could one add red or white to this list without too much trouble?

-Storm

[Guli]

Haven't seen gro in a while, list looks solid.

I think Shaman works best with Magus Moon deck

With 4 Noble and 4 Shaman, the argument that Magus can screw yourself doesn't make sense anymore. I believe Naya is the place for Shaman with a lot of fetch lands, basic plains and forests. With a lot fetch I really do mean a lot so you will FIND those early plain/forest and can safely play down that Magus. You also play the best hatebears that GW has to offer of course. For those who remember, It was one of my first designs, I called it Mr.Gaddock it is still in the database on this forum.

I also believe with Gaddock Teeg, those new 3cc planeswalkers are interesting. Domri and Ajani are both good and can get you a lot of value. PW'ers are especially good against decks that don't run a lot of creatures. Creatures are still, in my opinion, the best counter to Jace for example. Because they can obviously attack a PW, they can act as removal for the PW.

I am having fun with this list right now:

2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2 Domri Rade
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
3 Scryb Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stun Sniper
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Wooded Foothills

SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Gorilla Shaman

[Stormanimagus]

Haven't seen gro in a while, list looks solid.

I think Shaman works best with Magus Moon deck

With 4 Noble and 4 Shaman, the argument that Magus can screw yourself doesn't make sense anymore. I believe Naya is the place for Shaman with a lot of fetch lands, basic plains and forests. With a lot fetch I really do mean a lot so you will FIND those early plain/forest and can safely play down that Magus. You also play the best hatebears that GW has to offer of course. For those who remember, It was one of my first designs, I called it Mr.Gaddock it is still in the database on this forum.

I also believe with Gaddock Teeg, those new 3cc planeswalkers are interesting. Domri and Ajani are both good and can get you a lot of value. PW'ers are especially good against decks that don't run a lot of creatures. Creatures are still, in my opinion, the best counter to Jace for example. Because they can obviously attack a PW, they can act as removal for the PW.

I am having fun with this list right now:

2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2 Domri Rade
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
3 Scryb Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stun Sniper
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Wooded Foothills

SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Gorilla Shaman

I don't love that you can't activate Shaman for the black ability with this list. I'd throw in a bayou/scrubland for that effect as there are many non-waste running blue decks where you'll really want access to that ability.

Other than that this looks like a pretty nifty little list. How has Domri Rade been in testing? Also, Relic Warder that costs WW over Pridemage that costs GW? Seems like a no-brainer to me that pride is the better card. I realize that Relic, Warder answers Tinkers, but you have Stun Sniper for that. I dunno. Just seems like this could use a little tweaking to be optimal. Also, is the "Moon" ability really that great any more? isn't it simply too slow vs. shops and oath?

-Storm

[StanleyAugust]

I was only going to posit for an exercise in "all aboard the jank-mobile": has anyone considered going the shamans route and running a 4 Deathrite Shaman and 4 Vampire Hexmage? To get even more janky has anyone thought of going GB/w with such a deck and including a couple copies of Doran, The Siege Tower? He seems to fit very nicely with a 1/2 body and maybe even some Trygons would go in such a list? Anyone have ideas on how to maybe make Doran a Viable option? I like him against Landstill cause he's super hard to kill. He also Kills a Lodestone Golem and lives to tell the tale. That is important consideration I should say.

-Storm

Storm: Yes and yes. Funny you should bring it up, actually.
I've been playing a list with Deathrite Shaman, Vampire Hexmages, Dark Depths and Knight of the Reliquary and it's been decent, though admittedly, I haven't tested it that much.

Regarding Doran, I sooo much want to build something with him in it, but I haven't been able to brew anything really good.

[brianpk80]

It is a BGW Shaman deck. He claims a good Shop MU, but I haven't watched. I know he's had a hard time with Blue.

Thanks.  I saw "Shamans" listed in in a Top 8 somewhere but it didn't elaborate on the decklist.  I think it was Ohio.  Then I heard it mentioned last weekend.  With an Enchantress deck and Infect making Top 4's now, we might as well have Shamans.  

I've been playing a list with Deathrite Shaman, Vampire Hexmages, Dark Depths and Knight of the Reliquary and it's been decent, though admittedly, I haven't tested it that much.

Regarding Doran, I sooo much want to build something with him in it, but I haven't been able to brew anything really good.

Nice.  Do you have a list?

I guess with Doran, the idea is that w. Deathrite Shamans, Cavern of Souls, and maybe Noble Hierarchs, it would be a consistent Turn 2 play, hopefully uncounterable.  There's a creature in AVR called Gavony Ironwright that gives all other creatures you control +1/+4 under Fateful Hour (5 life or less).  I put them together in a fun deck last year with Hex Parasites and Spellskite to trigger the clause, and Death's Shadow to make more use of it.  It was inconsistent but occasionally generated a lot of damage out of nowhere.  Even without all the clumsiness, Spellskite itself is pretty decent w. Doran, protecting him from some removal/bounce and getting a big use out of the bonus.  Another perk of Spellskite is that it prevents Key/Vault because you can change the target of the Voltaic Key from Time Vault to Spellskite in response.      

I realize that Relic, Warder answers Tinkers, but you have Stun Sniper for that. I dunno.

It's better to have 7-8 Tinker responses maindeck than 3.  That doesn't mean that the maindeck choices are there only to answer Tinker, but it's such a blowout play and blue players crutch on it when they know you're playing creatures.  Relic Warder is usually better in the Shop match-up because it's cheaper to remove an artifact (WW v. GW1) and sticks around.  

Just seems like this could use a little tweaking to be optimal. Also, is the "Moon" ability really that great any more? isn't it simply too slow vs. shops and oath?

I never thought Magus of the Moon had any real utility v. Oath since he himself would trigger it irrespective of Orchard tokens.  He's as disruptive as ever v. Shops, Dredge, and Factories.