[Free Podcast] SMIP # 28: Burning Tendrils Scenarios

[Smmenen]

By popular demand, our Vintage scenarios analysis is back!

http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=4373

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian recap GenCon 2013, analyze Burning Tendrils scenarios, and answer listener feedback.

Podcast (somanyinsaneplays): Download (Duration: 1:13:43 — 72.1MB)

Timestamped Table of Contents:
0:01:00: Announcements
0:02:24: GenCon Recap
0:12:10: Burning Tendrils Scenarios
1:07:50: Listener Feedback
Total runtime: 1:13:43

Show Notes

- Vintage Tournament at Olde World Games in Vacaville CA – September 15
- Team Serious Vintage Open – Comic Town – Columbus OH – September 28
- Vintage Tournament at Odyssey Games in Kalamazoo, MI – October 5
- GenCon 2013 Saturday Vintage Decklists & Metagame Breakdown

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com.

[nedleeds]

Minor correction, top 8 from Friday didn't include the mighty humans pile. Sorry I didn't feel like playing it out, I was ready for beer and felt fortunate to have avenged my 2 losses from swiss in the 8's and 4's. Adrian would have smashed me on the play I'm sure. Great podcast; I got it as soon as it dropped.

-Sean O'Brien

[MaximumCDawg]

Hooray for Scenarios!

I will be all over this on tomorrow's commute!

[Smmenen]

It's a different experience actually podcasting/recording and listening to it.  I'm through the second scenario, and I thought it turned out very well.  I think the one thing that we could/should have done was repeat the opening hands so people don't have to rewind to catch all 7 cards. 

[GrandpaBelcher]

Next time you could put the opening hands on the podcast page, so people can see them.

[Smmenen]

Tell that to Kevin/Jaco

[GrandpaBelcher]

To: Kevin/Jaco, wtc?

[JACO]

I didn't have a chance to listen to the podcast until right now. While listening to it I've just updated the EC post with opening hand scenarios, images, and the time in the podcast they occur.

I'm sure Cron & Menendian will do better submitting more details for publication in the future.

[Smmenen]

Thanks Jaco.  that looks awesome.  Kevin had the opening hands in our show notes, so he could have easily shared them with you

[MaximumCDawg]

These scenarios were great, thanks!

I've noticed, though, that almost all of your scenarios deal with turns 1 and 2 of the game.  Kind of like only discussing the openings in chess. I imagine this is because that is the point where you have the most decisions to make, as disruption and more information will narrow the realistic options as the game goes on.  Any thought to late-game scenarios?

[Samoht]

These scenarios were great, thanks!

I've noticed, though, that almost all of your scenarios deal with turns 1 and 2 of the game.  Kind of like only discussing the openings in chess. I imagine this is because that is the point where you have the most decisions to make, as disruption and more information will narrow the realistic options as the game goes on.  Any thought to late-game scenarios?

This deck doesn't really have late game scenarios. It just keeps playing back breaking cards until the game ends or it runs out of cards. If it goes past turn 3, the win % of BT is very low.

[Smmenen]

These scenarios were great, thanks!

I've noticed, though, that almost all of your scenarios deal with turns 1 and 2 of the game.  Kind of like only discussing the openings in chess. I imagine this is because that is the point where you have the most decisions to make, as disruption and more information will narrow the realistic options as the game goes on.  Any thought to late-game scenarios?

In the podcast, I explained that there are a number of basic scenarios with this deck: 1) mulligan decisions, 2) turn one sequencing, 2) across-turn sequencing (i.e. Turn 1 Duress, Turn 2 Oath, Turn 3 D7), 3) post-Draw7 sequencing (which are very similar to t1 sequencing), etc.

There are also big questions like what to keep when feeding on Necro, (i.e. what to pitch).  

For expediency and convenience, we focused on one's that were easy to pull out.  I tasked Kevin with identifying scenarios.  I had sent him a few others, but they had gotten deleted or lost.  Apparently, android deletes Apple images after a certain period of time.

These scenarios were great, thanks!

I've noticed, though, that almost all of your scenarios deal with turns 1 and 2 of the game.  Kind of like only discussing the openings in chess. I imagine this is because that is the point where you have the most decisions to make, as disruption and more information will narrow the realistic options as the game goes on.  Any thought to late-game scenarios?

This deck doesn't really have late game scenarios. It just keeps playing back breaking cards until the game ends or it runs out of cards. If it goes past turn 3, the win % of BT is very low.

Ehhh..  That's not actually true.   Burning Tendrils is designed to go longer than 3 turns against Workshops, for example.  

There are actually a number of really amazing mid and late game scenarios.  In fact, penultimate turns scenarios against decks like Workshops and Dredge can be fascinating.   The problem is that setting them up can be very complex.

To take one example that I considered using from my Burning Tendrils bible, there is a scenario where you have roughly 12 life, Bargain, Oath and Maniac in hand, and Ancient Tomb, Cities and Orchards, and my opponent has Trading Post and Grafdigger's Cage in play.   There is a very specific line of play that leads to victory, but setting it all up in the form of a puzzle can be difficult and tedious.  

More generally, there are lots of really good late game (i.e. turn 4-6) scenario questions where you can set up a simple question where both players are basically topdeck mode, and you draw a Tutor or a Wish and ask what to do.  Etcetera.  Those are a rich area for scenario questions that involve the Vintage "late" game.  I was just too busy/lazy to construct one for this podcast.

We can do more scenarios in the future if this podcast is well-received. 

[CHA1N5]

I didn't have a chance to listen to the podcast until right now. While listening to it I've just updated the EC post with opening hand scenarios, images, and the time in the podcast they occur.

I'm sure Cron & Menendian will do better submitting more details for publication in the future.

Jaco: Bad ass, thanks.  I WILL submit the hands for future scenarios to facilitate this brand of awesomeness.

[Mr. Type 4]

Kevin asks Steve in the last scenario if there was a situation where you wouldnt Windfall.  you could consider if the opponent Mulliganed multiple times you'd probably rather Tinker for Jar or B-Wish.  

[evouga]

Regarding Wheel of Fortune/Windfall: if you play these on turn 1 against Dredge, don't they get to dredge (possible multiple times) using any dredgers that were in their hand? That sounds rather dangerous to me, even if you do hit their Bazaar.

[MaximumCDawg]

Yeah, they talked about that in the scenario.  The choice is between letting them dredge once for sure off their first draw step or letting them drop Bazaar and dredge twice.  If Dredge keeps an opening 7, it's a pretty safe bet that they have a Bazaar in hand, so you slow them down tremendously if you make them mulligan right away.  Of course, its' a gambit, because you instalose if they draw another Bazaar in the next seven.

[evouga]

I'm not talking about during their first draw step, though: can't they dredge immediately, during the resolution of Wheel of Fortune? Ie, they discard a dredger that was one of their starting seven, and dredge it to replace their first draw. They can then dredge up to six more times, if they had several dredgers in hand or get lucky with the library.

[John Cox]

This was great. I would love to see more scenario podcasts with more decks other than burning long.
Thanks.

[Smmenen]

Such as?

[msg67183]

Such as?

The Renegades!!! (Aka Hivemaster Elves)

Cavern Humans

[rikimaru75]

I just listened through scenarios 2 or 3 and perhaps I'm running an outdated list of Burning Tendrils...

but...for scenarios 2 and 3, was there consideration for using burning wish to get Balance?

Scenario 2: T1, I see using Burning Wish for Balance to run someone down to 2 cards. T2, Tinker for Jar.

Scenario 3: T1, Duress. T2, Wish >> Balance. 2 cards left in hand, one being wheel and then combo off potentially?


Are these too risky?

[Smmenen]

Such as?

The Renegades!!! (Aka Hivemaster Elves)

Cavern Humans

Seems unlikely that will ever happen since Kevin and I only create scenarios from decks we play or test with regularly unless listeners wish to submit their own.

[msg67183]

Such as?

The Renegades!!! (Aka Hivemaster Elves)

Cavern Humans

Would you like my list for The Renegades? It is a surprisingly powerful unpowered deck.

Seems unlikely that will ever happen since Kevin and I only create scenarios from decks we play or test with regularly unless listeners wish to submit their own.

[Smmenen]

A list doen't help us create scenarios if neither Kevin nor I would play it, which neither one of us will.  We have extremely limited time, and aren't likely to play a deck that neither one of us is going to play in a tournament in the near future.  

If, on the other hand, you create 5 scenarios for us, we will consider using them.  That would be far more valuable than a decklist, which is useless to us.

[Twaun007]

A list doen't help us create scenarios if neither Kevin nor I would play it, which neither one of us will.  We have extremely limited time, and aren't likely to play a deck that neither one of us is going to play in a tournament in the near future.

I ran this through my Sith translator.... This is what I got.

The Dark Sith Lord myself, Stephen Q. Menendian and my apprentice Darth CHA1N5 do not use blasters in lightsaber duels.

[John Cox]

I'd love to see some scenarios with grixis mostly as it's a very common deck to play against. One scenario that I'd like thoughts on are from a scholars vintage tournament on you tube (here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59e9JDOdpU at 26:10).
The Gush Combo player has a just hard casted a gush with drain mana from a tinker the turn before and allowed their opponent (Grixis) to tutor for ancestral.
He has a gush in hand. Both players have two lands and an emerald. In this case the gush player gushed (by returning islands) in response to the ancestral. Is this the right play? or should they let the ancestral just resolve? In the video coverage the gush player did gush and the ancestral does resolve. The ancestral was cast on the grixis player's main phase.

[Smmenen]

If you have scenarios like that, send them to our podcast email account and we will use them. 

[Smmenen]

This has been posted on MTGcast, which means its now on itunes as well: http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/so-many-insane-plays/many-insane-plays-28-burning-tendrils-scenarios

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm not talking about during their first draw step, though: can't they dredge immediately, during the resolution of Wheel of Fortune? Ie, they discard a dredger that was one of their starting seven, and dredge it to replace their first draw. They can then dredge up to six more times, if they had several dredgers in hand or get lucky with the library.

Oooooh yeah, I think they can actually.  I don't think the Menedian Crew thought of that.

[Smmenen]

Yes, we recognized that - we may not have been explicit about it though. I played Dredge multiple times at the NYSE and went 2-0 each time.