Doomsday (the Ritual approach)

[Soly]

I surprisingly don't feel like Doomsday is a very streamlined deck.  What I mean from this is take a deck like Burning Oath;  there's the right way, and the wrong way to play it.  By nature, it is very streamlined as a Combo Deck.

However, the different variations to me are similar to Gifts Ungiven in 2006.   By the end of the Gifts Era, there was a Ritual Gifts shell, and a Mana Drain gifts shell.  They were both strong and weak to certain things, and some matchups changed, but the decks themselves were almost identical in speed;  you just were able to play one controlling, and one agressive.

3-4 Rituals = Aggressive
0-2 Rituals = Controlling

The 4 Ritual shells usually max out on Hurkyl's Recalls, because their gameplan is to bounce the world and then kill you.  With a shell like what I've been having success with, you're less likely to Kill them early with a Hurkyl's, which is why I apply the principle of Parody by using Ingot Chewers and such. Josh's gameplan is to win the race through sheer power, where-as my gameplan is to keep parody until I build the resources to break it and win.    I was able to win through casting doomsday against double sphere of resistance at Gencon, which allowed me to win.  I got to that point by using Ingot Chewers on threats because I could keep parody.

I don't think Josh's variant could keep parody, nor do I think it wants to.

[Asphyxious]

No argument there. I either win quick or I fall too far behind. that's almost definitely why there's such a large disparity between my win percentage on the play vs the draw against shops.

Your point about gifts is interesting. I didn't play in 06, but I wonder if there are any other parallels to be drawn.

[Smmenen]

I definitely designed it, and have always played it, as a very streamlined deck.  That doesn't mean its linear, that just means its focused.  

Here's what I top4ed the 32 player Friday Grinder with:

Doomsday, November 2013
By Stephen Menendian
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Doomsday
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Yixlid Jailer
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Volcanic Island
3 Nature’s Claim

I lost in the top 4 against my friend Theo, and only because we spend the few hours before this event testing, while we waited for the grinder to fire.  I had been crushing him in testing, but the matchup slowly tightened, despite me having a very strong edge, as we played game after game.  He got lucky in the Top 4, but had a huge advantage of having just played like 20 test games against me that he wouldn't have otherwise had, and I would have smoked him.  I would have faced Jimmy McCarthy in the same favorable match in the finals.

I definitely would have felt comfortable playing this deck in the main event if not for a weak Workshop matchup.  

I borrowed Soly's Ingot Chewer tech, and his Top (which was pretty good, but I'm not wedded to it).  

I understand Josh's point about being able to use Ritual to accelerate out a fast win, by countering Workshops first threat, but I don't believe that's a reliable plan.  It's functional, and can win, but not to the degree of reliability I demand for my decks.   Too many things have to line up.  

If you lose the die roll, your opponent is almost guaranteed to have two turns in games 1 and 3.   Playing Dark Ritual, Doomsday on turn one, after a Force, is not a reliable plan either.  As there are simply too many things the opponent could do to disrupt you, even if you have another counter.  They could Strip you, Chalice the wrong number you didn't plan for, or worse.  

In my Waterbury report, and in the original Doomsday thread, I reported beating Workshops in testing.  The problem isn't being able to beat Workshops in some abstract sense.  The problem is beating workshops if you lose the die roll.  

Alternating who goes first in a 10, 20 or even 100 game set does not accurately represent what happens in a match because, if you lose the die roll, you are playing a very, very different game.  And, if you can't reliably beat Workshops on the draw 2 games in a match, I don't think you have a good enough strategy in a large tournament.  It's there that I feel Dark Ritual really fails.  Yes, Dark Ritual can work fine if you win the die roll, counter the first threat, and go off.  But it's much less good if your opponent is on the play, since you won't be casting Doomdsay until turn 2 in well over 90% of games.

My defense of the Workshop matchup was flawed because my testing was flawed, as I believe the methodology of those representing the matchup here.  The problem isn't that you can't beat Workshops, nor that you can't even break even in a long set of games.  The problem is winning the match if you lose the die roll, and are on the draw in games 1 and 3.  That's the problem.  That's where Dark Ritual is not very good, and why I say it's not good in the Workshop matchups.  Yes, it can be fine otherwise, but you should be winning those games anyway, imo.  Hell, if you win the die roll, Dark Ritual might actually  be better than anything else in that spot.  But that doesn't mean its good against Workshops -- just good against Workshops on the play   When I say I want a card that's "good against Workshops," I only mean "on the draw."

I'm not anti Dark Ritual.  After all, I play alot of Dark Ritual decks in Vintage tournaments in the last year   I just don't like it here.  

I won a Meandeck Open in 2012 using multiple Trygon Predators, which I thought was good at the time, but I prefer the plan I used at #EternalWeekend.  

3-4 Rituals = Aggressive
0-2 Rituals = Controlling

I think this is somewhat misleading, because, as I said earlier in this thread, I don't want to choose between being controlling or aggressive, I want the option to play *both* roles.  See Who's the Beatdown 2.

[Djinn695]

After testing Doomsday in a few tournaments this is the list I came up with:

http://deckstats.net/decks/4622/18859-confidant-combo

4 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
3 Mana Drain
4 Gush
4 Preordain
3 Intuition
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Dark Confidant
1 Noxious Revival
1 Regrowth
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Doomsday
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Island

This approach is to set up a Doomsday pile that will win with a lethal Tendrils count (you may not even need to Doomsday to win). The deck can still function as a control deck running 4x Force of Will, 3x Mana Drain, and 4 Flusterstorm, for a total of 11 counter. The first Intuition that resolves finds me Regrowth, Noxious Revival and, Yawg Will. This will secure me Yawg Will, given either Regrowth or Noxious. The rest of the game your Preordains and Tutors and Dark Confidant can help sculpt the perfect hand to either Doomsday or Yawg Will for a lethal storm count.

Any suggestions for improvement? I know we all have different ideas on whats good and bad.

[xouman]

That list seems quite fragile. If you base your game around y.will, you will probably lose against any resolved Grafdigger's cage or even a deathrite shaman (and you are not playing missteps)

Only 1 doomsday makes harder to find it.
COTV 1 and misstep are hard to deal with.

on the other side, it seems better in longer games because of confidants, gushes, intuitions... tendrils kill is far more viable. But still i'd prefer the 4 doomsday version.

[Djinn695]

Thanks for your ideas Xouman

Deathrite Shaman does seem like a problem, In a heavy meta where they are played putting three of those in my deck would be ideal.

Why are four Doomsday necessary if the majority of the time you win with storm count?

Don't you think replacing three of those Doomsday with tutors such as intitution/Regrowth/Noxious/Enlighten Tutor (which finds you two cards Lotus and Fastbond) will serve you better. Regrowth on FOW  or Gush could be game changing.

Why would you want to draw that extra Doomsday?

Just in-case it gets countered would be the only reason to run more than one.

Don't you usually wait till you have counter back up anyways to resolve doomsday and gush on the same turn?

On turn one/two how do you distribute this Intuition pile?
(This is without any knowledge of me playing a combo deck game 1 of course)

1. Dark Confidant
2. Ancestral Recall
3. Noxious Revival

[A.-1.]

That link says the deck is not public.

I agree with xouman. That list looks very fragile. It's running less counters/protection than most dedicated Doomsday lists. The one Tundra just for Enlightened Tutor makes very little sense. Without Necro, your only real targets are Black Lotus and Fastbond, which requires you to have another fetchland.

If you're winning the majority of your games via storm, just play a dedicated storm deck. Don't dilute it with all those suboptimal cards.

Intuition, Regrowth, and Noxious Revival open you up to graveyard hate. One of the strengths of Doomsday decks is that they can easily play around graveyard hate.

You don't want to draw extra copies of Doomsday, but you want to make sure you do draw it. Only running one copy and one less tutor (Imperial Seal) means that you're all-in on the Yawg Will plan.

If you've spent the resources to play an Intuition for that pile on turn one, I give you Noxious Revival, Misstep your Recall, and leverage that tempo to a win. If you Revival back Confidant, you're not seeing an extra card until turn three. Congratulations, you just spent  and two life to see one extra card if your opponent did not disrupt you at all.

[John Cox]

Would it make more sense to play accumulated knowledge than confidant in that list? Confidant + Gush seem a little tense together, especially without tops and Jace.

[Djinn695]

Good stuff,

A. 1 - I see what you mean by committing to the intuition, using all that mana for one extra draw may not be the best option. Maybe enlighten tutor can be replaced by imperial seal (I dislike its sorcery speed) that's why I chose to splash white for enlighten and also for side board. Maybe there's a better white enchantment that it could bring up?

Porphyry Nodes (W)
At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy the creature with the least power. It can't be regenerated. If two or more creatures are tied for least power, you choose one of them.

When there are no creatures on the battlefield, sacrifice Porphyry Nodes.

That was a side board card against creature decks that i thought could work.

John - I like the idea of AK instead of the confidants. I think that would bring more synergy with the intuition.

I changed some stuff around here it is:

12 Counter Spells

4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm                                               
3 Mana Drain
2 Mental Mistep

18 Draw Spells

4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Intuition                                                     
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Brainstorm/Ponder/Merchant Scroll/Time Twister
1 Ancestral Recall

5 Tutors

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperal Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Doomsday

3 Situation Cards

1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Regrowth
1 Fastbond

2 Win Conditions

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony

20 Mana Sources

1 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp/Island
1 Island

[Thegreatgonzo]

Porphiry nodes can be found in green : Drop of honey, from arabian nights.

Just my 2 cents

[John Cox]

I've been playing around (gold fishing) with different lists, what's the average goldfish of a ritual and non ritual doomsday supposed to be (when playing the combo role)? Also, should I be saving a cantrip to draw into the pile or just trying to assemble the win as fast as possible, -IE digging with every cantrip?
Thanks in advance,
John

[Asphyxious]

My list usually goldfishes on turns 2-4, but that's not factoring in disruption, and I don't know about the non-ritual version as I haven't played it nearly as much as others.

In practice, turn 2 wins can worry about less disruption because often the opponent won't have drain mana or they've only seen a card or two or maybe they've played a set-up spell (bob, jace, etc.) and are tapped.  If it's gone to turn 3 or later, it becomes more important to worry about stripping their hand or having protection as they've had time to dig for more answers.

I usually use all of my cantrips except for Gush and Gitaxian Probe.  I consider Gush part of the combo in the early game.  Additionally, if you Gush on turn 2 and find Doomsday, you still have to wait two more turns to use another Gush to get into your pile, which is bad.  I'd rather just draw off the top and hold the gush.  Additionally, you don't want to gush into discarding, so I usually don't gush for the draw until turn 3 or 4, and even then usually only if i'm really out of gas.

I usually hold Gitaxian Probe, if you're running it, rather than simply blind drawing with it because a free draw post-doomsday is way more valuable than a blind draw pre-doomsday.  So, again, as long as i have gas, i hold it.

With pretty much every other cantrip, i go to town.  In my list, I'm looking for a 3-card combo (d. rit, dd, and gush) and they're all 4-ofs, so i'm digging pretty hard during the first few turns, depending on what's in my hand.

[John Cox]

OK that's good to know, I've been using my probe pre doomsday for information.

[John Jones]

So... I have been testing this deck since my bug deck was stolen. I have started with Josh's list playing against Will M w/ shops mostly. I found that unless you have FoW or the shops player gets unlucky you are very likely to lose game 1. Josh had 2 steel sabotage in his MD which I think might need to be either 1 SS and 1 Hurkyls or 2 hurkyls. The reason was that chalice on 1 literally screws this deck up and you're then forced to ramp lands into a doomsday. With any amount of spheres>1 this becomes pretty difficult. The only way I was able to win with a chalice out was because I got lucky and hit lotus->DD or I was able to eot vamp into lotus. That being said... revolver was another problem if chalice was already out and I don't think I won a game where he had both. Post board, the game became about 50/50 regardless of play or draw. The way I won the most with an EOT DR->Hurkyls or EOT Hurkyls into next turn win. This leads me to believe that hurkyls might be better? Now I understand the point of SS. If you're on the play, you can drop fetch and pass and then have a t1 counter for their t1 threat... if you're on the play. But when you're not on the play game 1, that SS and DRs are absolutely useless in the face of a chalice. For this reason I will be testing at least 1 hurkyls in the main. Additionally, there were a few games where if I was able to tutor up demonic consultation I would have won on spot. This was mostly because of thorn and the fact that maniac is a creature.

This all being said I thought of another shell completely for this deck but want to run it by a few people before I talk about it. I think it might actually be quite good in the shops matchup.

[InfectedMushroom]

My list is tuned to have game against shops by using 2 Hurkyl's Recall and 1 Steel Sabotage maindeck. I have been using a single Dark Ritual maindeck, which I do like. I play frequently against those types of decks, so I wanted to be able to win game 1 much more often. It isn't nearly as impossible as people seem to think.

[Commandant]

My list is tuned to have game against shops by using 2 Hurkyl's Recall and 1 Steel Sabotage maindeck. I have been using a single Dark Ritual maindeck, which I do like. I play frequently against those types of decks, so I wanted to be able to win game 1 much more often. It isn't nearly as impossible as people seem to think.

It's silly to think DD has a reasonable Workshop match up. There's like two quality Workshop pliots in NE and neither plays very frequently.

[Soly]

It's silly to think DD has a reasonable Workshop match up. There's like two quality Workshop pliots in NE and neither plays very frequently.

Agree completely.

I determined that my Game 1 was so terrible against workshops that it is better to just CUT The workshop hate, and focus on winning Game 2 and 3 by slowing down the game and having specific answers.

[Tammit67]

It's silly to think DD has a reasonable Workshop match up.

Yeah there are a lot of ways to disrupt the spell based deck!

There's like two quality Workshop pliots in NE and neither plays very frequently.

Aren't there enough disruptive elements out of WS that makes the matchup inherently bad that player skill out of WS plays into it little (or at least less than other matchups?)

[Commandant]

Aren't there enough disruptive elements out of WS that makes the matchup inherently bad that player skill out of WS plays into it little (or at least less than other matchups?)

No.

Either you are given openings or given zero openings, that makes a world of difference when you are playing DD.

[Tammit67]

No.

Either you are given openings or given zero openings, that makes a world of difference when you are playing DD.

Well yeah but even a rudimentary opponent can figure out what cards hurt?

[median]

Does anyone have any opinions on overmaster  http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=2729in doomsday since we have a red splash for ingot chewers already?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Does anyone have any opinions on overmaster  http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=2729in doomsday since we have a red splash for ingot chewers already?

How about one of these little gems to get around counters?  They are in a primary DD color too!

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=57228
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=47609

If you're thinking of a way to bust through chalice, then ANY removal spell is better than overmaster.

[John Cox]

How about one of these little gems to get around counters?  They are in a primary DD color too!

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=57228
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=47609

If you're thinking of a way to bust through chalice, then ANY removal spell is better than overmaster.

I agree with that for the most part, there are some cool things with overmaster though, it's good bait (if you have   ) because you would make a pile with flusterstorm. It could also draw you into an uncounterable ancestral. it also cycles. But yes, duress is better.

[KIP_NZ]

I T4'd a 22 man event at the end of Jan with Doomsday. My list was:
Main Deck   
4   Scalding Tarn
3   Misty Rainforest
3   Underground Sea
2   Island
1   Tropical Island
1   Volcanic Island
4   Dark Ritual
4   Doomsday
4   Gush
4   Force of Will
3   Duress
2   Mental Misstep
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Lion's Eye Diamond
1   Brainstorm
1   Ponder
1   Merchant Scroll
1   Hurkyl's Recall
1   Tendrils of Agony
3   Gitaxian Probe
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Flusterstorm
1   Mind's Desire
1   Beacon of Destruction
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Necropotence
1   Fastbond
1   Sensei's Divining Top
1   Lotus Petal
60   
Sideboard   
1   Duress
3   Hurkyl's Recall
1   Chain of Vapor
1   Pyroclasm
1   Lightning Bolt
2   Xantid Swarm
3   Ingot Chewer
1   Mountain
2   Tormod's Crypt
15   

It was a 75 proxy event with a prize I didn't care about so I wanted to to play something fun. I managed to completely punt 2 games post casting Doomsday with beacon piles. I screwed one up by having U Sea + fetch in my opener, I lead with the sea, ritual doomsday and then realised after I passed the turn that I didn't have a land in my pile to fetch with the fetch AND I didn't have the required 2 mana to kill with that pile ... 2 turns later I decked myself.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It's not clear to me that Beacon is ever the right choice, especially in a Flusterstorm meta. Unless you're facing Sudden Shock or a ton of Grim Lavamancers (and then you have a Tendrils pile!), it seems like Laboratory Maniac is superior.

[A.-1.]

I'm also curious as to why you went with the old school Beacon kill. If you're worried about Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, etc. on Lab Maniac, running Thoughtseize makes more sense than Xantid Swarm.

Is Pyroclasm better than Toxic Deluge in a deck running four Dark Ritual?

[Soly]

Never ONCE in my life have I ever thought to myself "Man, I could win this game if I had the Beacon of Destruction kill".

Actually, in 2004, I found myself thinking more like "man, this kill sucks.  I'd rather have anything else".

[John Cox]

I don't get to play vintage in Ontario, there just aren't tournaments. I'm planning on travelling to a larger sanctioned event in 2014 and was wondering if anyone has tried oath as a sideboard card and what their thoughts were on it.

[KIP_NZ]

I'm also curious as to why you went with the old school Beacon kill. If you're worried about Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, etc. on Lab Maniac, running Thoughtseize makes more sense than Xantid Swarm.

Is Pyroclasm better than Toxic Deluge in a deck running four Dark Ritual?

I'll just leave this IRC log here... Hola to my peps in #motl and #tmd for helping with this list. Including Jeek who is credited with the Beacon pile in 2004?

09:41 < KIP_NZ> LemonWork: ping
09:42 < LemonWork> yo KIP_NZ
09:42 < KIP_NZ> LemonWork: vintage this weekend. I feel like being a dick. What should I play?
09:42 < KIP_NZ> It's unlimited proxy btw
09:43 < LemonWork> unlimited proxies = everybody wants to have fun and play power
09:43 < LemonWork> so play something with null rod
09:43 < LemonWork> maybe null rod + chalice
09:43 < LemonWork> the stackiest of stax decks
09:43 < LemonWork> just play stax
09:46 < KIP_NZ> yer I could
09:46 < KIP_NZ> I was thinking more dickish
09:46 < KIP_NZ> doomsday
09:46 < KIP_NZ> or dragon
09:46 < LemonWork> nah
09:46 < KIP_NZ> or something like that
09:46 < LemonWork> i don't t hink those are dickish decks
09:49 < KIP_NZ> oh I want to play something stupid
09:49 < KIP_NZ> not be a dick to people
09:49 < KIP_NZ> else I'd play 13 sphere 4 null rod 4 pithing needle. dec
09:50 < LemonWork> oh
09:50 < LemonWork> play doomsday
09:50 < LemonWork> but fuck lab man
09:50 < LemonWork> do it with the old kill
09:50 < LemonWork> ancestral recall, black lotus, dark ritual, mind's desire, beacon of destruction
10:02 < KIP_NZ> !beacon of destr
10:02 < Datatog> Beacon of Destruction {3RR} |Instant| Beacon of Destruction deals 5 damage to target creature or player. Shuffle Beacon of Destruction into its owner's library. <B7> 10E-R,5DN-R
10:03 < KIP_NZ> how do you do enough damage with that?
10:04 < KIP_NZ> cause mind's desire allows you to cast it once
10:04 < KIP_NZ> oh shit it's an instant
10:04 < KIP_NZ> so you can resolve it between storm triggers
10:04 < KIP_NZ> LOLOL
10:37 < KIP_NZ> LemonWork: I think it's going to be doomsday
10:47 < LemonWork> good planj
10:48 < LemonWork> you gonna use that sweet old pile?
10:48 < LemonWork> or labman lol
10:48 < LemonWork> if you do that you also get to natural storm into  mind's desire
10:49 < KIP_NZ> looking for a non-labman pile
10:52 < LemonWork> KIP_NZ: you could go for tendrils piles
10:52 < LemonWork> or just do the hilarious beacon of destruction pile
10:52 < LemonWork> and mind's desire is broken anyway
10:53 < KIP_NZ> LemonWork: yer tendril's = hard
10:59 < LemonWork> you usually want a gush tendrils backup plan in those decks anyway
10:59 < LemonWork> i think tendrils shouldn't be too hard
11:01 < LemonWork> ancestral recall, black lotus, LED, yawgwill, then just have a tutor or gitaxian probe or ponder in your hand
11:01 < LemonWork> oh wait i keep forgetting about gush
11:01 < LemonWork> i am too used to legacy
11:04 < LemonWork> lab man makes things so much easier
11:32 < Dr_Tongue> as long as you can keep him on the table
11:38  < KIP_NZ> Screw labman, that appears to be the proper way to win!
11:38  < KIP_NZ> Beacon it is!

[John Cox]

I'll just leave this IRC log here... Hola to my peps in #motl and #tmd for helping with this list. Including Jeek who is credited with the Beacon pile in 2004?


....

I think it was Billy Murano (SP? -The guy who made the hatching plans storm deck in standard) who gave the idea for the beacon kill to team Meandeck. Stephen Menendian has an article about it on Star City.