Human Ingenuity

[NiRVeS]

I'm far (like...really far) from an expert on this archetype, but as far as that latest list/idea goes, I'm doubtfull as to whether that's the way the deck should be build.

In general, the problem with cards like Surgical Extraction or Extirpate, is that they don't generate any physical advantage in most generic gamestates.
Obviously, there is real value to be gained when you can:

(1) eliminate essential parts from certain decks (e.g. taking out Oath of Druids, or Burning Wish from a storm deck);
(2) extract cards in graveyards which were going to be used as a resource (e.g. responding to a snapcaster/y.will or anything regarding dredge);
(3) strip a duplicate card from you opponent's hand.

Given that scenario's (1) and (2) are matchup and gamestate-dependant, you generally have very little control over these situations happening.
That leaves scenario (3), which you can actually influence, in case your objective is to maximize Surgical Extraction's effect (which I wouldn't consider all that desirable of a goal in itself, but if you wanne try that, more power to you).

All I'm trying to say is: if you wanna utilize surgical extraction as a maindeck weapon, I feel it would make sense to use cards like Gitaxian Probe and targeted discard to get an idea of the contents of their hand (so you can snipe an in-hand card along as well) and (in case of discard/destruction-effects) to provide the nessecary targets for Extraction to begin with. All of these cards, incidentally, work great with Meddling Mage as well.

So...maybe an Esper build would be interesting to explore?

Grtz,

Tom

[Guli]

My vieuw on the matter is a bit reversed. The role Surgical plays is to disrupt colors in mana bases (with wasteland>Surgical) or topdeck tutors. Then it is important to gain knowledge so you can name better with Meddling Mage and/or Revoker. My idea was not to gain knowledge to make Surgical better, my idea was to gain knowledge WITH Surgical to make other cards better. This becomes more powerfull and important when there is a plan to play Phantasmal Image and/or Phyrexian Metamorph to copy Meddling Mage and/or Phyrexian Revoker. On occasion you will catch a Snapcaster or disrupt a dredge player in game 1. But these are secondary goals.

That being said, I haven't played any Surgicals in a real event so far, but with the possibility of 12 Rainbow lands, Meddling Mage, Sin Collector, Exava all become possible in the same deck without concern for color. The leap from a world with fetchlands, mana fixers into a world were colors are no longer a restriction or relevant factor seems to be harder than it looks. Erase all the mana symbols and replace them with   or   or   or  .

I think the image of this card explains best what I mean:



There are some borderline cases that must be taken care off, like a Magus Moon effect. I believe this problem can be solved by running Lightning Bolts as one of the removals in the deck. Read this line again, and think of cards like Meddling Mage, Dark Confidant, Time Walk and Abrupt Decay all in the same deck and you will always be able to cast them. Everything is possible suddenly because the consistency is there now.

So with this new reality were color is less of a restriction, a lot of new design space is opened. And the nice part of this is that every player will have its own configuration of creatures/spells/utility lands (on top of the 12+5) depending on what strategy he tends to follow. Wonderfull time for Human fans.

[xouman]

My vieuw on the matter is a bit reversed. The role Surgical plays is to disrupt colors in mana bases (with wasteland>Surgical) or topdeck tutors. Then it is important to gain knowledge so you can name better with Meddling Mage and/or Revoker. My idea was not to gain knowledge to make Surgical better, my idea was to gain knowledge WITH Surgical to make other cards better. This becomes more powerfull and important when there is a plan to play Phantasmal Image and/or Phyrexian Metamorph to copy Meddling Mage and/or Phyrexian Revoker. On occasion you will catch a Snapcaster or disrupt a dredge player in game 1. But these are secondary goals.

That being said, I haven't played any Surgicals in a real event so far, but with the possibility of 12 Rainbow lands, Meddling Mage, Sin Collector, Exava all become possible in the same deck without concern for color. The leap from a world with fetchlands, mana fixers into a world were colors are no longer a restriction or relevant factor seems to be harder than it looks. Erase all the mana symbols and replace them with   or   or   or  .

I think the image of this card explains best what I mean:



There are some borderline cases that must be taken care off, like a Magus Moon effect. I believe this problem can be solved by running Lightning Bolts as one of the removals in the deck. Read this line again, and think of cards like Meddling Mage, Dark Confidant, Time Walk and Abrupt Decay all in the same deck and you will always be able to cast them. Everything is possible suddenly because the consistency is there now.

So with this new reality were color is less of a restriction, a lot of new design space is opened. And the nice part of this is that every player will have its own configuration of creatures/spells/utility lands (on top of the 12+5) depending on what strategy he tends to follow. Wonderfull time for Human fans.

Maybe I'd include one copy of this card in the near future :p



Playing thalias along this is great, since fows and other free countermagic lose a lot of power. And playing 8 cities means this card you are taking damage every turn (and losing mana in opponent's turn) or destroying lands... quite powerful. Even against ancient tombs it deals a nice amount of damage. And the next step is playing winter orb :p

These cards are nice with mayor of avabruck since it should flip quite often. but all of this is not advised if you are playing 8 cities yourself...

[vaughnbros]

I feel like this is just worse than braids.  The cabal minion forces them to sacrifice first instead of you first and eats their other mana sources (moxen) in addition to lands.

[Guli]

I don't understand your reply xouman. I was answering Tom on the idea of Surgical. I was trying to underline how Mana Confluence could open a world of many new designs.


I am guessing you wanted an opinion on Stokeshaker Shaman, which is an entirely different topic?

I will give it a try: I never tried out the card, so I would be speculating, but it seems to me that the effect is not strong enough. You are paying  for a 1/1 and this means it is extremely vulnerable. Say you reach the maximum effect and they tap out to prevent the loss of a land, you would need a second card to make it really effective (winter orb for example). There are a lot of cards that would be strong in play when we have the usual board states of Humans. A smokestack for example can be very strong with a flipped Mayor. However when I sleeve up before a tournament, every slot matters and I need to make the deck tick. In order to use a slot for a card like Stoneshaker, there are more things to consider than just 'it is strong with Humans'. Do you need that slot for something more critical? There are a couple building blocks (concepts) I have come to respect like 'being Golem proof', 'readyness for Jace', 'a longterm plan against landstill decks', 'a solid Oath of Druid answer', ... If you find yourself solid enough with these 'must do's' and you can spare a slot, you can always experiment with cards similar to Stoneshaker Shaman. This experimentation is not limited to online testing, it is also possible to test things in a real event if you dare so.

[xouman]

@vaughnbros: While braids effect is more powerful, Stoneshaker costs 1 less and could easily be more assymetrical. Braids kills moxen, but I suppose that's not needed (it's hard to survive on moxen mana, althought not impossible). The key is playing spells just in your turn, and force the opponent do the same.

@Guli: I pointed Stoneshaker because of mana confluence. Playing 8 cities does not mean have to pay each turn for them, but what would you do with this card in play? You are losing them, or paying life every turn, besides losing the opportunity to play mana in opponent's turn. Yes, very fringe play, but I can see 1 of this in my sideboard. In a moon deck, opponent would typically would leave W open for stp, UU for drain or BG to play decay, but this card makes them quite dependant on fow to get ride of magus/blood moon.

I mean, this card "forces" you to play spells and abilities (outside moxen mana) in your turn, but with 8 cities/4 ancient tomb also generates some life advantage. Not very impactful, but could be quite annoying. Nevertheless, I appreciate your answer and agree with you.

[Stormanimagus]

So I think any Humans list that focuses primarily on hate-bears and controlling the board with just "good stuff" creatures needs a robust aggro plan that really puts the hurt on opponents for not being able to get out of a lock fast enough. This is why I think the deck really needs to start running some number of Mayors again (especially the 5-C toolbox builds). It's not enough to just throw down the correct answer card for the situation. You need to also pummel your opponent with an aggro onslaught. With this in mind I have a new 5-color human list that isn't a polished list yet, but I hope will spark some discussion. It is very streamlined and seeks to have the right answers for the right situation almost all the time. Here goes:

Humans 2014

Lands (17):
4 Cavern Of Souls
4 City Of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
2 Grafdigger’s Cage

Creatures (26):
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor Of Avabruck
4 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
4 Banisher Priest
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Notion Thief
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Instants (8):
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Mental Misstep
4 Abrupt Decay

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk


Sideboard

1 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Rest In Peace
2 Stony Silence
4 Aegis Of The Gods
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Prophetic Flamespeaker
1 Devout Witness
2 Devout Chaplain

[msg67183]

So I think any Humans list that focuses primarily on hate-bears and controlling the board with just "good stuff" creatures needs a robust aggro plan that really puts the hurt on opponents for not being able to get out of a lock fast enough. This is why I think the deck really needs to start running some number of Mayors again (especially the 5-C toolbox builds). It's not enough to just throw down the correct answer card for the situation. You need to also pummel your opponent with an aggro onslaught. With this in mind I have a new 5-color human list that isn't a polished list yet, but I hope will spark some discussion. It is very streamlined and seeks to have the right answers for the right situation almost all the time. Here goes:

Humans 2014

Lands (17):
4 Cavern Of Souls
4 City Of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
2 Grafdigger’s Cage

Creatures (26):
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor Of Avabruck
4 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
4 Banisher Priest
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Notion Thief
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Instants (8):
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Mental Misstep
4 Abrupt Decay

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk


Sideboard

1 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Rest In Peace
2 Stony Silence
4 Aegis Of The Gods
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Prophetic Flamespeaker
1 Devout Witness
2 Devout Chaplain

This list looks really interesting I must say! Once Journey is available on Cockatrice I'll have to test it out!!!

[Stormanimagus]

So I think any Humans list that focuses primarily on hate-bears and controlling the board with just "good stuff" creatures needs a robust aggro plan that really puts the hurt on opponents for not being able to get out of a lock fast enough. This is why I think the deck really needs to start running some number of Mayors again (especially the 5-C toolbox builds). It's not enough to just throw down the correct answer card for the situation. You need to also pummel your opponent with an aggro onslaught. With this in mind I have a new 5-color human list that isn't a polished list yet, but I hope will spark some discussion. It is very streamlined and seeks to have the right answers for the right situation almost all the time. Here goes:

Humans 2014

Lands (17):
4 Cavern Of Souls
4 City Of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
2 Grafdigger’s Cage

Creatures (26):
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor Of Avabruck
4 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
4 Banisher Priest
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Notion Thief
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Instants (8):
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Mental Misstep
4 Abrupt Decay

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk


Sideboard

1 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Rest In Peace
2 Stony Silence
4 Aegis Of The Gods
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Prophetic Flamespeaker
1 Devout Witness
2 Devout Chaplain

This list looks really interesting I must say! Once Journey is available on Cockatrice I'll have to test it out!!!

Thanks MSG! I am a little concerned about the softness of such a manabase to shops (no basics at all!), but perhaps that can be shored up with some number of Ghost Quarters in the SB to fight more on the waste effect battlefront.

I have an analogy for why I think this deck might be good and a bit of a sleeper (or a deck built around this engine). Waaaaay back in 2008 I helped to break the Selkie-Noble Engine in Noble Fish and people thought Selkie was a horrible card. It turned out it was the perfect card for the metagame it was in at the time. I believe that Flamespeaker COULD be the "Selkie" of this deck and help to generate absurd amounts of card advantage (Note that unmolested it will trigger twice a turn and you don't HAVE to play the card if it is garbage in the matchup or you don't need it at that moment). If it ends up being stronger than expected I could even see eschewing Bob entirely and just running 3 of these guys. This would open up 3 more slots maindeck for current SB cards and open up more space in the board for shop hate.

-Storm

[Stormanimagus]

If one really wanted to go out on a limb and make this a "Prophetic Flamespeaker" Deck it occurs to me that Confidant might be excessive in the draw department and then Mental Misstep is no longer a good thing to reveal with Flamespeaker so it might be good to cut them in favor of some more permanent hate. Here's my slightly more risky Flamespeaker variant with 3 maindeck Flamespeaker!

Humans 2014

Lands (17):
4 Cavern Of Souls
4 City Of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
3 Grafdigger’s Cage

Creatures (28):
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
4 Mayor Of Avabruck
4 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
1 Devout Witness
2 Devout Chaplain
4 Banisher Priest
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Notion Thief
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Instants (5):
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Abrupt Decay

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard

3 Rest In Peace
3 Stony Silence
4 Aegis Of The Gods
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Devout Chaplain
3 Deathrite Shaman

[Guli]

I am not going to focus my posts so much on deck lists, but feel free to do so.

Prophetic Flamespeaker is indeed a card that is as dangerous as Selkie. However the abilities of Prophetic Flamespeaker are better and it is the stronger card. I think it is important to note that they are not comparable when it comes to fitting a card in a certain archetype. So I don't know if it is usefull to compare them. I am inclined to think that a comparission is not relevant. But I will spend some extra words on it nevertheless. In a world were mana is available at any colors, it is clearly superious to Selkie, and we will soon be in that new reality.

Flamespeaker is 'cumulative' when you attack with 2 copies to get 4 triggers. The same can not be said of multiple Selkie. Selkie really needs an exalted trigger. Flamespeaker can be deadly just on its own.

Then the 1/3 body is highly relevant against Lightning Bolt, Fire Ice, as a blocker and attacker, and against -1/-1 or -2/-2 effects (or damage like Pyroclasm). Because I also believe that Mayor should be brought back, this guy can grow to a 2/4 (see bolt argument). In the past we made a similar argument about Fiend Hunter. People who tried Fiend Hunter in Mayor Fish variants know that the statements I make here are accurate.

I believe Flamespeaker is the best Human in the set.

Second in line is is Aegis of the Gods but I don't think that card will have much impact. It is just a slight improvement (unless that 2/2 instead 2/1 will be relevant in future) , which means we already had the means to fight the decks that are hurt by Leyline of Sanctity effects. We are talking about Oath, Storm decks, Belcher, maybe Mindslaver?!, some fringe applications against Dredge,... and the very situational Ancestral Recall on yourself. Maybe it can be relevant when using Oath of Ghouls, you can at least prevent them from getting back something themselves since the black Oath is also targeted. At least it can buy time in order for you to clear their graveyard with Deathrite or Ooze. I find details like this important, but I don't think the card will have a high impact. Oh, lastly, being a soldier type could prove to be very important with Cavern of Souls. I didn't invest my time into this yet, but I am confident that the 'Soldier' type is perfectly playable in Vintage right now. Dryad Militant, Karakas, Thalia, Aegis, Brimaz, archetype of courage, lavinia, captain sisay is a shell that I think is possible. The cheap soldiers are effective against fast blue combo and tempo decks, while the higher casting cost soldiers are more controlling and can dominate a board state.

I like the Spirits that they gave us. The Eidolon of the Great Revel sparks me. Flash is a known player in the vintage metagame on cockatrice and he had a deck with Kederekt Parasite. It was a tight and unique deck that has a lot potential for competitive vintage. I think Eidolon is a perfect fit for that deck. I know he was experimenting with Ash Zealot to deal more damage fast, and have sufficient red permanents. I can see Eidolon replacing Ash Zealot and push the deck over the top.

[serracollector]

I know enchantments are a no go for most players but i was testing a red black human deck based around bob and ash zealout and pain seer and now im testing flame and i have to say that the enchantment madcap skills is absolutely amazing on any of these  creatures either as a east clock or as a way to give pain seer or flame evasion. Turn one bob or pain seer turn two madcap skills or turn two flame turn three madcap skills leads to alot of damage and card advantage. Normally ofc one would be scared of bolt or decay and a two for one loss in this scenerin but w four bob pain seer and flame its not hard to stay ahead in ca.

[brianpk80]

I'm very happy to see Exava and Notion Thief as established staples in this archetype.  Exava is undoubtedly the Dark Queen of the Humans and a total powerhouse.  I also think the Prophetic Flamespeaker is very good and could serve as a viable alternate CA engine to Bob, especially since you ideally want to drop Thalia/disruption turn 1 and then start drawing cards. 

[Guli]

I'm very happy to see Exava and Notion Thief as established staples in this archetype.  Exava is undoubtedly the Dark Queen of the Humans and a total powerhouse.  I also think the Prophetic Flamespeaker is very good and could serve as a viable alternate CA engine to Bob, especially since you ideally want to drop Thalia/disruption turn 1 and then start drawing cards. 

You want to drop Thalia and friends early on and I think you can go a long way without actually drawing extra cards by using disruption and tempo tactics. At some point you do need replenishing in some match ups. I don't know if you want to cut Dark Confidant all together. I see Dark Confidant as disruption in some match ups. It is a must answer card that comes down on turn 1. If the opponent does not get rid of the card in a short time period, you are drawing into lock pieces and removal/counter. Flamespeaker is a bit different, it serves as a clock as well. I think I would try to run both if I can find the room.

[xouman]

I agree. One of the most difficult things building a hate deck is trying curve into a good denial in first turns, but follow it with a decent card advantage engine (being direct CA or CD for opponent). Too many quick hate cards, and you will probably lose gas too quickly. But drawing into cards good in the midgame could mean lose quickly. Flamespeaker seems a great card,but I'd play it after vomiting my hate into play.

[Guli]

Thalia is the best thing that happened for non combo (see brian's designs) and non force of will (see noble fish) human lists. The card isn't even that broken, but it does exactly what such a human list wants, generate enough tempo so you can get your long term bombs online. And we kind of need 1 more 5 star tempo generator. This is why I was so critical against the new True Believer. Not that I was unhappy with the new haterator bear, but it could have been something more 'on spot'. I wonder wich equip, +1/+1 boost or aura we will eventually end up with, when tuning with Flamespeaker. The card is really absurd with boosts.

Legendary Human Soldier 2/2
Persist
Sacrifice: until your next turn, opponents pay  more for each spell they cast.

[xouman]

Flamespeaker could be playable by itself. About best (playable) enablers for him in a humans hate list, I can think about equipments (sword of light and shadow or basilik collar), but probably hierarch/mayor are the best route.

And if humans gets some importance, people would tune their sideboards. If answers are always the same (toxic deluge probably), meddling mage could be the best card. Otherwise what should be the best tactic? Discard? Xathrid Necromancer?

Legendary Human Soldier 2/2
Persist
Sacrifice: until your next turn, opponents pay  more for each spell they cast.

Very nice design, useful but not too broken. I'm not sure they would use persist again. Besides it's assimetric and does affect all spells. Of course it can be done, but is a bit different than existing similar creatures.

What about a cheaper/hasty Mangara of korondor, just for artifacts?

[TheWhiteDragon]

How's this?

1W

Hindering Harpie

Human Bird

Flying.
Non-artifact spells cost your opponents 1 more to cast.

2/1


4 of these puppies and 4 thalia should mean you only need a sb of dredge/shop hate and should easilly allow humans to take 3/4 of any given top 8.

[brianpk80]

And if humans gets some importance, people would tune their sideboards. If answers are always the same (toxic deluge probably), meddling mage could be the best card. Otherwise what should be the best tactic? Discard? Xathrid Necromancer?

Flusterstorm and Thoughtseize.  Humans should be able to survive a board sweeper or two; with the redundancy and CA Humans as well as knowing not to overextend, it has several volleys to fire.  When removal increases, Mishra's Factory is another very strong hedge. 

[Guli]

The trick is to play around Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt and Counters. See Exava with Cavern.

I already noted this in the past but this Dragon also avoids Swords to Plowshares:



People's first reactions are that it costs too much, but a cost is relative. Usually in Humans I personally run both Noble as Deathrite plus moxes and maybe even Crypt and Sol Ring. This kind of approach has less difficulty to reach 4 or 5 mana in a short time span.


I also agree that Thoughtseize or Duress on the right moment can totally change the outcome. I opt to play not many of these usually. I use them in addition to 4 Mental Misstep to increase the pressure on control and combo. I haven't had a game were I was outplayed by a sweeper for a long long time. Humans is just too strong to scoop against those tactics. Even if removal increases, I don't think it will work against a good Human hand/opening. Oath of Ghouls would also be a great option to nullify those evil plans of long term removal on everything you cast. Besides, if decks increase removal, that means that they have to use important deck slots or sideboard slots. In a deck with Dark Confidant and now the Flamespeaker, this can play right into our hand. It is like Wasteland from the opponent on my Cavern of Souls after I opened with Noble Hierarch (with 2 lands in my hand). That is basically a Wasteland on itself at that point in the game. The trick is tempo, they can never have enough removal for everything, but they could create a window with Dark Confidant or Jace to generate a dead board for the Human deck and still have a CA engine online. These are the games you want to avoid and this is why I am a strong Believer of cards like Exava and Notion Thief, because these cards are there to prevent being outplayed in that nasty fashion.

A card like Meddling Mage can stop anything but it can also be easily removed and then it suddenly stops nothing anymore. This is why I like answers that can't be as easily removed or have the ability to flash in to catch the opponent of guard. Meddling Mage does not give the element of surprise (a very important tactic in war).

[NiRVeS]

If resilience to removal + a quick clock is your concern: why not Geist of Saint Traft?
You could easily turn 2 it off a mox or hierarch, and it hits even harder than the Dragon.

Good luck to everyone attending BoM9. I'll be there with a bunch more Belgians. Look for the yellow Belgic Magic shirts and don't be shy to come and say hi. Getting to know other enthousiastic players is the main reason I'm playing these events.

However, my deck will only contain one single Human. Let's just say I'm more of a Yawgmoth's Will than a Cavern of Souls kinda guy .

[Guli]

I wish you and the others the best of luck, and if you need Human cards (if you change your mind), you can borrow them all from me. I wish I could attend too, but I have other priorities right now.

[Stormanimagus]

Oddly enough, I'm finding huge problems in the self inflicted damage from the 4 Confluence and 4 City. I dealt myself 13 damage with them by about turn 5 one game. That is a huge problem when you are in a race (something I find myself frequently in vs. BUG fish for example). Sometimes I'm able to persevere through the damage and sometimes I am not. Is it possible to make a solid version of this deck that is not 5-Color? What colors would it want to be? If we do continue with the 5-color mana base is there a good life-gain option I'm overlooking? Just curious to know if anyone else is having this problem in testing is all.

-Storm

[xouman]

In my small testing 8 cities were also troublesome lots of times, specially with confidants (althought in the last list they are replaced by flamespeakers). Without DRS or SFM > Batterskull, even more.

I love red, but probably is the weakest color here. White is the most important color, follorwed by green. Then it depends if you are playing confidant or not, but I think black and blue are paired in importance.

There is another "path", a bit weird (I love weird things, I have izzet heart). Ali from cairo, or its cheaper version, Fortune thief. Even worship could be a card worth of testing. However those cards do not stop confidant, mana confluence or fetchlands (but they work with city of brass and of couse any other damage). The more I think, the more I see them unplayable because of confidant and confluence...

[Guli]

What life gain cards are you guys playing?

Thought about using Death's Shadow?


@xouman Red is fantastic, it gives Exava, Ingot, Ancient grudge, REB, Huntmaster, Recruiter, Flamespeaker..

[xouman]

Guli, I love red. In fact, last deck I played was monored (but my perfomance was so bad that I didn't bother anyone). However, in a humans shell, it's probably the 5th color in my eyes. What do I expect from this deck?

-Great synergy with cavern of souls. Cavern could be the best card in the deck, making creatures uncounterable and fixing mana. That implies lots of humans, and *uncounterable* spells (see abrupt decay or flusterstorm) to make opponent counterspells pretty dead.

-Powerful effects from creatures, over combat or synergies. Let me explain: of course I value combat and synergies, but I prefer creatures that can make an impact by themselves, like confidant, thalia and so.

-Quick impact in the battlefield, to avoid quick loses, but great midgame.

-Answers to any deck in the field, since humans have no trivial pairings but no impossible pairings.


From those principles, Exava fits really well, but can be replaced with other cards (like mistcutter hydra), ingot and grudge are pretty unique, but green and white also have decent answers, i don't like reb in this deck very much, I find recruiter is slow in this deck, and flamespeaker has to prove itself. Do not misunderstand me: all of those are great cards, absolutely playable in vintage, but I find really dangerous to go 5C in a non-combo deck with wastelands. Thalia and decay are absurd imho, and ancestral+timewalk more or less the same. If I have to cut something, it would be red.

Of course, if any 5C humans deck proves to have a solid manabase I'd be totally happy with it. I'm interested in people experience with flamespeaker, specially.

[Guli]

I am more interested in what cards that are being used to compensate for the life loss in a potential Cavern of Souls/City of Brass/Mana Confluence rainbow mana base.


We have been on this Humans thingy for a while now, I think that each pilot can adjust his/her own strategy, goals accordingly and that there is a large card pool to do this. Large is good, but it does not mean that there are always adequate cards at our disposal. But there is I think enough material to work with to do these things:

- competitive enough to win any event
- fill up all of the 75 slots with really solid cards ("there are no bad cards in this deck")
- always room to innovate and experiment
- run cards in the same shell which would normally be impossible with a fetch/dual mana base


Do you guys think Lifelink is a loss of time or what? I want to know if any of you used Stoneforge/Skull for example.

[Guli]

Here is my take on the 5c Humans with Mana Confluence and Prophetic Flamespeaker.

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Notion Thief
2 Aegis of the Gods

1 Whip of Erebos
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Thoughtseize

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune

SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 prophetic Flamespeaker
SB: 2 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge

[msg67183]

This list seems interesting Guli. I noticed u omitted mana dorks, is that because you want all gas off Flamespesker?

[Guli]

It is because I am running full acceleration already and want to put a lot pressure with thalia or lodestone early on with waste/port and revoker backup. And if not, I should draw the thoughtseize and go from there.