Human Ingenuity

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Have you thought about how containment priest interacts with Relic-Warder  (removing an artifact creature) and banisher priest / fiend hunter? It's pretty sweet haha. I'm using some of that type of strategy in my RW builds

[serracollector]

I would highly suggest Prophet of Kruphix. I know its expensive but mana should not be a problem in versus the decks it absolutely shines against. Its essentially a walk every turn.

[Coopes]

I would love to be able to jam Humans again, but when I re-bought power I decided to get rid of the 2 wastes I had.

If the price is ever reasonable I will jump back on this deck, as Humans will always have a special place for being my Vintage first. I can absolutely see what Containment Priest brings to the field, but I'm not as excited about running 8 pain lands :s.

I'm not one to doubt Guli, he has given me plenty of great decks and ideas...I just dislike the mana base in the example. Also to the above, prophet of kruphix seems like a ton to invest..but I've run crazier cards.

[StanleyAugust]

Containment Priest is definitely a big asset to Fish/Beats. I have one question for you, Guli: How do you win against Shops?

[Guli]

Another good thing about Containment Priest is that it is relevant against Workshop.

Mayor, Noble, Wasteland and Dack are all good cards too.


About posting lists, when I label a list as 'rough' and post it in a grey box, and state that it is for inspirational purposes, I think I am being clear. When I find the time to work out a tuned list for Humans in 2015, I will present it in a more detailed manner. I can't promise anything though. Very busy these days. What I tried to do here is lay out the new foundations (from my point of view) for 5C Humans.

The way to win against Workshop: Noble, Wasteland and Mayor are important. Getting Dack into play is very strong. Flashing in creatures on upkeep is important against Wire locks. Priest is important to stop Welder based Workshop or Forgemaster>Big boy. Try to hit Revokers with Pontiff to re-enable your Dack (if they Revoked it). If it turns out that this isn't enough, you can always add more strong options. Again, I am sketching the overall strategy, details will have to be worked out.


Josh, I like the Relic-Warder and Banisher exile tricks. Flickerwisp also works. Very nice idea! If we can work out the mana, this might be an interesting route to follow.


xouman, Flamespeaker is awsome. Imagine exalted+mayor+pontiff boosts, that kind of damage can count.


serra, Kruphix is a card I actually tested and it is a powerhouse once it is in play. But I can't find a good enough reason to actually use a slot or 2 for it. It does fit the profile, I have to admit that. In a deck with sensei top and flash creatures, you can only welcome an untapped Cavern of Souls on the opponent's turn. I kinda like this idea, but how many copies and will it be a dead card in too many match ups? It clearly is a strong card, but can the deck afford such luxury?


Coopes, the idea is to reshape those Human builds we worked on earlier this year. We have some new options now, strong stuff is available. And you saw what the archetype can do/did last year. Wasteland is not a must, maybe 1 or 2 is enough, the card pile i shared is not a working list, more like a representation of my thoughts.

[fsecco]

I've always felt Humans could be a little more geared towards Imperial Recruiter. There are a lot of 1-of's you can play if you jam 2-3 Recruiters in the deck. I mean, from this "inspirational" list right there I could take 1 Priest, 1 Mindcensor, 1 Pilgrim out for 2 Recruiters and, say, 1 Flamespeaker. Does it slow the deck down too much?

[Guli]

I've always felt Humans could be a little more geared towards Imperial Recruiter. There are a lot of 1-of's you can play if you jam 2-3 Recruiters in the deck. I mean, from this "inspirational" list right there I could take 1 Priest, 1 Mindcensor, 1 Pilgrim out for 2 Recruiters and, say, 1 Flamespeaker. Does it slow the deck down too much?

This is how I build my Legacy Humans deck with Vials. 4 Recruiters!

The vintage decks did have 1 or 2 recruiters and it works nicely, so yes it is possible. It is good to have some form of tutoring / ca for the slower match ups.

[WhiteLotus]

I would highly suggest Prophet of Kruphix. I know its expensive but mana should not be a problem in versus the decks it absolutely shines against. Its essentially a walk every turn.

5 mana for a card that gives you a tempo boost you wont be able to exploit more often than not ? I just don't see it. The 4 drops humans I can more than understand (especially Notion Thief) but Prophet does nothing on its own. The humans deck doesn't really have a way to take advantage of it (prophet needs you to have either counters spells or plenty of dudes to flash in) and I think that by the time you will be able to cast prophet your hand will be close to empty. Not to mention that the manabase is not designed to play it at all.

[StanleyAugust]

I've always felt Humans could be a little more geared towards Imperial Recruiter. There are a lot of 1-of's you can play if you jam 2-3 Recruiters in the deck. I mean, from this "inspirational" list right there I could take 1 Priest, 1 Mindcensor, 1 Pilgrim out for 2 Recruiters and, say, 1 Flamespeaker. Does it slow the deck down too much?

I agree with this. At least in theory. Because I've been toying with the idea and trying out various builds for a long time but from my experience it's simply too slow to work in Vintage.

However, there are a lot of cool interactions with Imperial Recruiter. My original idea was to use it in some sort of Skullclamp + Oath of Ghouls build. For instance, Recruiter into Qasali is insanely strong with a Skullclamp in play. And gets ridiculous with an Oath of Ghouls in play as well. If you want to go in this direction, Avalanche Riders is pretty cool as well as is Stingscourger.

[Guli]

Pretty sure that skullclamp with Recruiter/Pridemage would work.

I think the question is no longer related to a lack of options, but instead the challenge is to make your own version of 'Humans'. What do you consider fun, competitive and synergistic. I have my way of establishing parameters and the question I ask myself is what will I face, what are problems for this kind of deck. How you solve the potential problems is entirely up to you, and you can get very creative in this regard when it comes to Cavern Human builds. There are just a handful of cards that I see as 'really necessary' or as 'usual suspects'. For example, Dark Confidant, it no longer is an absolute must. At least not in my view. There are plenty of ways to incrementally generate cards. A trinket there, a recruiter here, then do some Dack action for card quality, dig with top, nullify a Tinker or Oath target with Priest, Notion Thief a Gush or Jace activation ...

[xouman]

I agree. Nowadays there are lots and lots of playable humans (and non humans, but playable in those builds). Being more aggro, more hate, having more card advantage... you decide

[Coopes]

Pretty sure that skullclamp with Recruiter/Pridemage would work.

I think the question is no longer related to a lack of options, but instead the challenge is to make your own version of 'Humans'. What do you consider fun, competitive and synergistic. I have my way of establishing parameters and the question I ask myself is what will I face, what are problems for this kind of deck. How you solve the potential problems is entirely up to you, and you can get very creative in this regard when it comes to Cavern Human builds. There are just a handful of cards that I see as 'really necessary' or as 'usual suspects'. For example, Dark Confidant, it no longer is an absolute must. At least not in my view. There are plenty of ways to incrementally generate cards. A trinket there, a recruiter here, then do some Dack action for card quality, dig with top, nullify a Tinker or Oath target with Priest, Notion Thief a Gush or Jace activation ...

This is why I love the deck ^^. I missed that the build was just an outline, that makes much more sense now! I think I'm going to start messing around with this again now that I have a few Containment Priests online.

[Guli]

I also think that Yasova will be a good fit in a Human deck that tries to solve the Tinker/Oath/Reanimate/Forgemaster problems by containing it with Priest. Yasova catches what Priest doesn't. It would go in the Trinket/Explosives slots. I am also testing more Humans with Flash, Deputy of Acquittals is looking promising. I use it to recast Pontiff, to save Priest or other creatures. Also comes in handy to do block bounce tricks against non trample enemy creatures. Motivates to use more etb value Humans (or if it is really worth it non humans).

[Stormanimagus]

Humans does not need to be 5 colors imo. I think a 3-Color Abzan list is the optimal direction to take the deck and I have a list that runs Knights that already does all the things you want to be doing in the deck.

On the prophet of kruphix thing: I think he doesn't really have the right toughness or mana cost for Vintage but if I was to try and abuse him it wouldn't be in a dedicated Human list. I'd try to abuse the card sunscape familiar with him and Trygon predator along with a counterspell package that makes use of the extra mana on the opponent's turn. I have a throwback noble fish list that might want 1-2 prophet somewhere in the 75.

-Storm

[Guli]

After Cavern of Souls and Mana Confluence I stopped thinking in terms of colors when selecting the creatures. I hardly look at the color costs anymore. I try to make an assessment of the meta and depending on that I devide my deck slots into a couple of categories (with overlaps). Then I hunt for the right Humans for those slots. It can end up in 3 colors sure, I would not mind that. But there is no goal of making the next deck 5 color.

Cards like Pontiff are extremely strong right now with the Pyromancer strategies seeing play. Humans does well against Storm, Oath, Workshop, but usually needs some silver bullets against BUG (Exava can be fearsome in this match up) and UR fish. Without the stabilizers, you can quickly be outdrawn and controlled. But with the fixers, you control them and this means you get the upper hand.

Knight based decks are not weak, but they tend to be more of a machine, a bit more static and less dynamic/reactive. Sure you get tutor power with Knight, but Knight can only do so much. I like to play the reactive game in a control aggro shell. This gives me way more range against decks that want to do a sweeper. They want to 3v1 or 4v1 you, but with enough flash creatures you can practically have a creature in play at all times. No need to have more than 2 in play against landstill anyway, especially in game 2 and game 3. One threat at a time is what you opt for, constant pressure but never over commit. The manner in which i propose to build and play the Humans deck, puts a lot of pressure on your opponent as well. It forces out more mistakes, which means more opportunities for you. Each time there is mana untapped, the opponent has to think twice about casting an ancestral recall, activating a Jace, casting a Tinker, bolting that Mayor.

[WhiteLotus]

I like to play the reactive game in a control aggro shell.

why aren't you playing a delver deck then?

[Guli]

I like to play the reactive game in a control aggro shell.

why aren't you playing a delver deck then?

Thalia, Mayor and the whole concept of Humans is way more fun and enjoyable for me Basically I don't want to divide the aggro and control part of the cards. Thalia is both aggro and control in 1 card, but Delver and Spell Pierce are 2 cards and 2 slots. The end results is that I am running more creatures (25-30). Normally the downside of creatures is that they are sorcery speed and you are forced into linear lines of play. But Containment Priest breaks this disadvantage (the first Human hatebear for 2cc with flash). Snapcaster, Aven, Thief are all good examples too btw, but being the right type, casting cost and body makes it very interesting for someone like me, a guy that just loves to slam disruptive bears on the table.

[MTGFan]

So Monastery Mentor and Soulfire Grandmaster...

There has to be a W/x deck with these two cards, Thalia, and some other elements that is borderline tier 1.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I actually think cavern humans would be one of the worst decks for these cards.  They're human, but they beg for non-creature spells en-mass...especially damage-dealing spells.

[Guli]

I am more interested in the buyback part. Giving 5C Humans a combo win with Time Walk sounds interesting. It wouldn't be hard to Eternal Witness a time walk at some point to set up a win with Soulfire.

[Guli]

Any straight, direct idea's to prepare for Monastery Mentor? Or got a creative solution? I would be happy to hear them.

My solutions so far:

- Run it yourself (have not tried it yet)
- Phyrexian Metamorph (also run it yourself, have tried it and it works)
- Lavinia of the Tenth (used this card in Legacy with great success, but never tried it in Vintage)

[xouman]

Well, my ideas follow two main paths:

1-Win before mentor does (don't you say?). I mean, play some combo, and race mentor.
2-Removal. And with removal I have two main ideas
     2.1-Sudden shock (all credit to Josh Potucek)
     2.2-Main removal. Currently considering toxic deluge (because of the color), but also having in mind bonfire of the damned (to avoid damage on own creatures) and rolling earthquake. I really like bonfire, but with just 1 brainstorm is bad...

There is a third way: sulfur elemental. While it does not kill mentor itself, at least kills the rest of tokens. Cannot be countered and in lots of cases will kill mentor itself. But sulfur elemental is quite mediocre.

[Stormanimagus]

Well, my ideas follow two main paths:

1-Win before mentor does (don't you say?). I mean, play some combo, and race mentor.
2-Removal. And with removal I have two main ideas
     2.1-Sudden shock (all credit to Josh Potucek)
     2.2-Main removal. Currently considering toxic deluge (because of the color), but also having in mind bonfire of the damned (to avoid damage on own creatures) and rolling earthquake. I really like bonfire, but with just 1 brainstorm is bad...

There is a third way: sulfur elemental. While it does not kill mentor itself, at least kills the rest of tokens. Cannot be countered and in lots of cases will kill mentor itself. But sulfur elemental is quite mediocre.

illness in the ranks is a card I'm testing in my human list right now. Running it yourself in Humans.dec isn't really an option cause you won't be triggering it that often.

[Guli]

Most triggers from Mentor come from things that 5C Humans runs anyway. These are jewelry, sensei's top, walk/recall/Dt/Vamp, Misstep, Decay, ... The option of running Mentor ourselves is very real. I am no sure if it is better to outplay the Mentor with something like Elesh Norn, a card that can hang out in the sideboard for match ups that do not put you in immediate danger (turn 1, turn 2 kills). The Caverns is already there, so are the full mox and Noble/Deathrite package.

Also thinking about recurring things like Darkblast or Punishing Fire. Punishing fire seems interesting with Soulfire, if that would be included. I would also think about including utility like 1 Steel Sabotage and 1x Repeal. Usefull cards that can be held back if you go for the Mentor plan. Snuff out is also a card that I tried before, it is free so it can be cast after a Mentor hits the board.

Oh and the last version of 5c Humans was played on mtgo and had Dack Faydens in it main deck. That also triggers Mentor and will help finding cards that feed Mentor.

[msg67183]

Here is an Abzan Humans list I have been tweaking:

Abzan Humans 


Mana (25):

4 Cavern of Souls 

4 Windswept Heath 

1 Verdant Catacombs 

1 Marsh Flats 

2 Savannah 

2 Scrubland 

2 Bayou 

1 Forest 

1 Plains 

2 Wasteland 

Strip Mine 

Black Lotus 

Mox Jet 

Mox Emerald 

Mox Pearl 


Threats (27):

3 Mother of Runes 

4 Noble Hierarch 

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 

4 Dark Confidant 

3 Mayor of Avabruck 

3 Containment Priest 

2 Banisher Priest 

3 Knight of the Reliquary 

2 Anafenza the Foremost 


Removal / Disruption (8):


4 Abrupt Decay 

3 Stony Silence 

1 Life from the Loam 


Sideboard:

3 Aegis of the Gods 

2 Ethersworn Canonist 

2 Orzohv Pontiff 

2 Umezawa's Jitte 

1 Mayor of Avabruck 

1 Banisher Priest 

1 Anafenza, the Foremost 

1 Containment Priest 

1 Bojuka Bog 

1 Wasteland 

The deck seems pretty strong with a lot of Hate for the meta, especially with Gifts now being Unrestricted. The only card I really want to fit in the list but it isn't in Abzan colors is Meddling Mage, seems like it can be really strong against all decks. What are everyone's thoughts on such a list?

[Guli]

Looks a bit like Storms version of Humans. I personally think that with Containment Priest, you can go down to 3 Decay because the Oath match is covered more.


With Thalia, Priest, Wasteland and Anafenza the Foremost, this deck does seem strong against dredge from game 1 to game 3. So I agree with a sideboard with subtle hate cards to deal with dredge.

I do want to hear your gameplan against Mentoginker. I saw Storm use Eidolon's but he was on the defence the entire time.

I would like to see someone suggest a solution that effectively deals with the Mentor without being in such a cramped position. If it isn't main deck, at least a strong sideboard should be there.

Things we talk about while testing:
- Elesh norn:
a) run Trinket and accelerate into Cavern/Elesh with Black Lotus support
b) run Gifts with Unburial Rites
c) Survival/Loyal Retainer into Elesh

Was thinking on Cradle's too for a while.

- Eidolon
This works, but is a very defensive approach and you obviously are not winning yet. Problem is that with a single plow, they solve the problem. So you will need a mother of runes and another threat to actually put pressure.

- Sulfur Elemental:
I was thinking for the 5c humans which runs red, to maybe use the Sulfur and with some Darkblast. I would also run things like Priest and Canonist most likely and side out Thalia, Spirit (if it is in, I usually do not add this one in humans) and basically any x/1 white bear I use. Any white bear with more than 1 toughness gets a boost from Sulfur and this is not necessarily a bad thing depending on the match up.



Why no Maze of Ith? It is insane when you have it in hand and they go Tinker/Blight. Or when they are relying on that Griselbrand lifelink both when you attack or he attacks... With Knights I would play the Maze for sure.

Anafenza the Foremost is cool, but what role does the card actually play? I haven't tested the card yet.

Why not play Aegis main deck? It is good against Probe, Therapy/Seize/Unmask, Oath, Belcher, Gifts, Tendrils. Probably will splash damage a zillion other cards too.

[xouman]

This list is nice with mana denial, but far from White Trash, for example. It also has good card advantage with confidant/loam (and mayor to a some extent) and nice tricks with reliquary or mother. However I could see problems against gift decks or against monastery mentor.

I agree with guli that  Anafenza the Foremost is a good card, but probably does not add too much in this deck. It is not a definitive aggro card, but it does not help the hate plan (other than dredge, welder decks and some other minor things.

[msg67183]

Anafenza's Role in this deck is to be a big beater along side Knight to end games fast. She also gives other dudes +1/+1 counters helping against Toxic Deluge and the like. She also combines extremely well with Priest to lock Dredge out pretty much.
Maybe Elesh Norn is the way to go for the aggro deck sideboard slot, I had Pontiff as I was trying to keep to all Humans.
I woul like to fit Aegis into the main but am unsure what to cut.

[Guli]

Anafenza's Role in this deck is to be a big beater along side Knight to end games fast. She also gives other dudes +1/+1 counters helping against Toxic Deluge and the like. She also combines extremely well with Priest to lock Dredge out pretty much.
Maybe Elesh Norn is the way to go for the aggro deck sideboard slot, I had Pontiff as I was trying to keep to all Humans.
I woul like to fit Aegis into the main but am unsure what to cut.

This does not convince me. And I also don't think that the deck has that much free way in this meta, you should spend these slots to answer critical threats in this meta. Also, there is a problem with the assumption of Anafenza will do something against dredge. Dredge kills on turn 2 and Anafenza might arrive too late. Let's assume that the dredge match up is fine thanks to these main deck additions, why would you want to be strong against dredge? This is the critical question.

I see too many decks abusing the access to all the artifact acceleration. Why is this deck only using the on color moxes? Do you honestly believe that the opponent will show mercy and not play the turn 1 Black Lotus into something broken, or Mana Crypt into Mentor and overwhelm you within 2 turns? That new blue Belcher deck that Chris Pikula and Randy Buehler are playing in the Vintage Super League, how would you interact against this deck. Seems to me that these maverick / abzan Human versions need Chalice of the Void or more acceleration to actually put down a Thalia or a Stony in play on turn 1. If you are casting Noble and pass the turn without a single counter or disruption, that is no good. Don't get me wrong, if your deck has like Evlish Spirit Guides, more moxes and free disruption spells, then in a general sense you will have more interaction. In that kind of list it is "ok" to play a Noble and pass the turn once in a while. Because this will only happen once in a while and the majority of the games you play will have a turn 1 Chalice for 0 or turn 1 Stony, or Thalia... This list seems to do the opposite, it has the turn 1 threat/disruption aka 'I live for one more turn', only once in a while. And in a general sense it will get out blown too much for my taste.


I hope I communicated my concerns the way I intended. In short: more vintage, less legacy and you should be fine


I also think that facing a early Mentor is more dangerous than facing a Tinker. Tinker is 1 threat and can nowadays be answered in various ways (Dack, Plow, Bounce, Counter, mana denial, Aven, Priest, Maze of Ith, Metamorph, ...).

[Stormanimagus]

does aegis of the gods shut off gifts entirely?