'Gold' tokens, AKA Lotus Petal tokens

[DubDub]

Is no one excited about these?



I mean, sure, the actual implementation which we have yet to see will likely suck.  But certainly there is enormous potential with these.  Vintage has a huge hunger for mana, especially mana that is flexible in color.  And we're the only format with Tolarian Academy.  Imagine something that churns out five gold tokens when you have academy down.

Given the flavor-infused design, I wouldn't be surprised to see these tokens get made by a Midas-like figure.  Maybe a Legendary creature that blows up artifacts and turns them into gold....?

[AmbivalentDuck]

[zimagic]

Is no one excited about these?

Given the flavor-infused design, I wouldn't be surprised to see these tokens get made by a Midas-like figure.  Maybe a Legendary creature that blows up artifacts and turns them into gold....?

I'm excited about them but only for storyline purposes. I hadn't considered Midas, I went with a Charon-like figure giving you 2 coins when another creature dies or something to do with the Returned/zombies on Theros and their masks.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/263c

Gold masks cover void faces. When a human dies on Theros, a funerary mask of dark clay is customary, used to "frame" the identity of the deceased for Athreos. So when a mortal destroys his or her identity to leave the Underworld, that mortal must fashion a mask to stand in for it. Gold is the most common material in Erebos's realm, so it has become customary for the Returned to symbolically replace their funerary masks (and by proxy their identities) with beautifully crafted gold masks that cover their changed faces and function as surrogate, albeit flimsy, identities.

[DubDub]

@Duck

Well hopefully, (and even probably, I would say, since Diamond Kaleidoscope is outright terrible) the new card(s) making these Gold tokens will be better than that.

[gkraigher]

yeah, this has me super pumped too.  will probably lead to disappointment, but still a really cool token.  i believe it is the first token that is not a creature, which opens up a lot of design space in the future. 

[tito del monte]

I love these and wonder if whatever makes them might find its way into a 5-colour stacks build.

If its a rendition of King Midas I really hope it's a super clean and simple design, like a legend whose ability reads tap: exile target permanent. It's controller puts a gold token into play.

I really don't think that would be too broken- and it would ooze mad flava!

[DubDub]

yeah, this has me super pumped too.  will probably lead to disappointment, but still a really cool token.  i believe it is the first token that is not a creature, which opens up a lot of design space in the future. 

Well... emblems.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Imperial Mask, Prototype Portal, and Mirrorworks.

[evouga]

These are pretty cool, for flavor reasons if nothing else. I hope some cards allowed me to "pilfer" my opponent's gold tokens.

[Saya]

Gild
3b
Sorcery   Rare
Exile target creature. Put a colorless artifact token named Gold onto the battlefield. It has "Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool."

[gkraigher]

I don't think gild will be the last, there is always the next set in the block as well. 

[DubDub]

Gild
3b
Sorcery   Rare
Exile target creature. Put a colorless artifact token named Gold onto the battlefield. It has "Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool."

I was just about to say "I hope it's better than that." when I realized that that is the (or one of the) new card to create Gold.  There are about 60 cards left to be spoiled as I write this post, and I will give credit to Duck if nothing better than that comes out of this.  Argh.

Also, it's worth noting that the Pegasus being turned to gold in Gild is the one that's broken in the art on the token.  So this could very well be the only card in this set to create the tokens.  What a massive waste.

[brianpk80]

What a massive waste.

I empathize.  Despite the printing of one decent hate bear, it's still... Theros block.

[Soly]

I feel like people try to dig for whatever exciting playables we can get without realizing that we average a very small number of real playable per block.

[DubDub]

I feel like people try to dig for whatever exciting playables we can get without realizing that we average a very small number of real playable per block.

Unfortunately this is the case.  I was super excited for Ashiok the blue-black planeswalker before he got spoiled.  And Kiora the blue-green planeswalker before she got spoiled.  And Phenax the blue-black god before he got spoiled.  I feel like there's an alternate universe where milling never became a part of MTG, and in that universe Ashiok and Phenax are sweet cards that impact Vintage, Legacy, Modern, and Standard all without dominating any format.

But here we are.

I get it that making token Lotus Petals is potentially dangerous.  I mean, Lotus Petal is restricted in Vintage, of course it's good.  Think of free spells that untap lands, and then add onto that the ability to store the mana for your next turn.  If Gild made four of these tokens people would be talking about it for sure: Gild->Jace, or Gild->Untap->Griselbrand, etc.

So instead the kid gloves come on and we get a one-mana discount on a four-mana kill spell.  Whoop.

[vaughnbros]

Gild
3b
Sorcery   Rare
Exile target creature. Put a colorless artifact token named Gold onto the battlefield. It has "Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool."

How is this even a rare?

[evouga]

They don't want too many god-holders in limited, I'd guess.

[zimagic]

Gild
3b
Sorcery   Rare
Exile target creature. Put a colorless artifact token named Gold onto the battlefield. It has "Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool."

How is this even a rare?

Unconditional exile with a mana benefit in Black. Couldn't have it at that cost as an uncommon in limited.

[Guli]

I feel like people try to dig for whatever exciting playables we can get without realizing that we average a very small number of real playable per block.

And I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that I think you are loooking too strict and technical at things, even if you are most likely correct. These new spoilers are suppose to bring excitement and joy... I enjoy testing out a new fresh card, even if it sometimes leads to the conclusion that it is not really playable in vintage.

[gkraigher]

I haven't been this disappointed with Theros block since scrygate.

[Bill Copes]

I'm hoping for an actual gold-token generator in the next set.  If the token is just tied to the one dumb card . . . meh.

_{Wurmcoil tokens being the exception this "meh" rule.}

[brianpk80]

I feel like people try to dig for whatever exciting playables we can get without realizing that we average a very small number of real playable per block.

Right, but doing so has never been as futile as it has with this block.  Given that Homelands produced Merchant Scroll & Serrated Arrows and even Fallen Empires had Hymn to Tourach & Hide Tide, one would be hard pressed to find a block/era as abysmal as Theros for Eternal play.  Additionally, with every block since the block cycle began in Mirage, each one produced at least a handful of cards that were not only playable but became ubiquitous Vintage staples.  

Blocks (non-exhaustive):
Mirage-Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond, Undiscovered Paradise, Gemstone Mine, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Null Rod.
Tempest-Wasteland, Intuition, Oath of Druids, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, Grindstone, Reanimate, more.
Urza's-Tolarian Academy, Yawg's Will, Show and Tell, Goblin Welder, Metalworker, Academy Rector, Goblin Lackey, Tinker, Memory Jar, et. al.
Masques-Gush, Daze, Tangle Wire, Rishadan Port, Massacre, Misdirection.
Invasion-Fact or Fiction, Quirion Dryad, Fire/Ice, Pernicious Deed, Meddling Mage, Orim's Chant.
Odyssey-Standstill, Barbarian Ring, Worldgorger Dragon, Grim Lavamancer, Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, Entomb, Ichorid.
Onslaught-Fetchlands, Stifle, Tendrils of Agony, Brain Freeze, Mind's Desire, Goblin Piledriver/Warchief/Siege-Gang/Gempalm.  
Mirrodin-Chalice of the Void, Aether Vial, Crucible of Worlds, Echoing Truth, Sword of Fire/Ice, Sundering Titan, Chrome Mox, Ravager, Goblin Charbelcher, etc.
Kamigawa-Sensei's Divining Top, Forbidden Orchard, Gifts Ungiven, Umezawa's Jitte, Kataki, Pithing Needle.
Ravnica-Dark Confidant, Golgari Grave Troll, Stinkweed Imp, Leyline of the Void, Life from the Loam, Shattering Spree, Spell Snare.
Time Spiral-Ancient Grudge, Tarmogoyf, Extirpate, Aven Mindcensor, Simian Spirit Guide, Urborg, Magus of the Moon, Bridge from Below, Pacts.
Lorwyn-Vendilion Clique, Thoughtseize, Mutavault, Planeswalker card type, Sower of Temptation, Gaddock Teeg, Cursecatcher/Silvergill Adept, Painter's Servant.
Alara-Noble Hierarch, Qasali Pridemage, Tezzeret, the Seeker, Ethersworn Canonist, Progenitus, Inkwell Leviathan, Path to Exile.
Zendikar-Enemy Fetch, Jace TMS, Lodestone Golem, Mindbreak Trap, Lotus Cobra, Stoneforge Mystic, Emrakul.
Scars-Kuldotha Forgemaster, Mental Misstep, Blightsteel Colossus, Tezzeret AoB, Steel Sabotage, Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite, Gitaxian Probe, Phyrexian Revoker, Phyrexian Metamorph.
Innistrad-Snapcaster Mage, Grafdigger's Cage, Thalia, Cavern of Souls, Griselbrand, Delver of Secrets.
RtR-Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay, Notion Thief, Undercity Informer/Balustrade Spy, Thespian Stage, Rest in Peace.

Theros- ... Swan Song (highly fringe), Spirit of the Labyrinth (maybe?).

In the past, explorers for new cards would suggest something from a new set was Vintage playable and endure a predictable volley of ridicule but ultimately be proven correct.  The new cards left lasting broad impressions on Vintage.  Theros is so far behind the curve in this regard we've actually had people suggesting Akroan Horse in Shops, Chain to the Rocks in Plateau.dec, and running a 4 CMC planeswalker that can die to a Noble Hierarch if it draws a card.  I used to make fun of Theros to friends and describe the set as a series of "5 mana Holy Strengths."  It was supposed to be an exaggeration but lo and behold, they printed a 5 mana Unholy Strength in Born from the Gods.

The main points I'm trying to make here are that:

1. Before 2013, scrutinizing several cards in each block for a good find was a worthwhile pursuit; it was legitimate and not laughable.
2. Referring to Theros block as the worst & most underpowered in Vintage's history is not lowbrow hyperbole or uninformed whining.  It's really that bad.

Cheers to all,

-B

[Samoht]

Still riding Notion Thief Brian?

[brianpk80]

Still riding Notion Thief Brian?

Sometimes.   

[evouga]

For some reason, R&D slammed the brakes *HARD* on the power level of Standard, starting with Gatecrash. One consequence of this is a fall in the number of potentially Vintage-playable singles per set.

Born of the Gods does seem particularly barren, though. (Although to be fair, the Holy Strength is only 3 mana, not 5 ) I won't be buying any packs, and hopefully enough other players are similarly apathetic that R&D's market research takes note. But from Mark's blog it seems that the Standard kiddies are lapping Theros block up, so...

[brianpk80]

For some reason, R&D slammed the brakes *HARD* on the power level of Standard, starting with Gatecrash. One consequence of this is a fall in the number of potentially Vintage-playable singles per set.

Agreed.  They may think they're extending the game's longevity since too much power creep can spell doom but this degree of impotence is shocking and unnecessary.   

Born of the Gods does seem particularly barren, though. (Although to be fair, the Holy Strength is only 3 mana, not 5 )

Yup, it's the Unholy Strength that costs 5 mana.  What's next, 3GGG for Llanowar Elf? 

[fsecco]

Born of the Gods does seem particularly barren, though. (Although to be fair, the Holy Strength is only 3 mana, not 5 )

Yup, it's the Unholy Strength that costs 5 mana.  What's next, 3GGG for Llanowar Elf? 

[Norm4eva]

So, for what the card does, it's not Eternal-worthy really at all. Its rarity being affected by Limited is a pain in the ass, but the inverse would have made a ridiculously busted removal spell in the same format.

I mean, honestly -- if it were Eternal playable it would probably become a hated POS card. If it competed directly with White's StP/PtE effects, it would be bad enough, but then there's the issue of the Gold token...

I *do* like the precedent it establishes for using tokens in this way. I did a quick Gatherer/Google search and it appears as though this really is the very first card that expressly creatures a noncreature token (not incidentally, as with something like Mirrorworks which allows for it but doesn't do it 'on purpose').

Consider the "creaturization" of all the playable effects; how many 'enchantment reprint + efficient weenie' cards have made an impact from Standard all the way down to Legacy/Vintage? Hatebears, 'lord-bears', whatever you want to call them -- may as well just start calling them 'textbears' I guess, although Spirit of the Labyrinth isn't strictly a bear either, ugh… -- creatures with relevant abilities have pretty much dominated the Relevant Permanents department.

So, because one overcosted card now creates a noncreature artifact, it's *possible* that we might see a new kind of permanent factory. Just as it's typically better to create a Sorcery/Instant when one card would put multiple permanents into play, so might we expect to see Sorceries/Instants that put multiple noncreature tokens into play. I might be overly excited or reading into it too much, and I hate to Be That Guy but… this is probably a precursor to assembling Contraptions. Which honestly probably has more ramifications than just whatever Contraptions actually are.

Let us assume we could one day see a card like:

Voltaic Keychain   
Instant

Put 3 artifact tokens named 'Key' onto the battlefield. They have ", sacrifice this permanent: Untap target artifact."

Forget about the relative power level of the suggested card, that's not the issue I'm concerned with. Really the coolest part of this is that Instants and Sorceries can now create lingering effects - or multiple one-shot effects - which outlast the life of the card, while being both interactive and a "non-Emblem" solution to memory issues associated with ongoing effects or delayed triggers. That's all entirely speculative, but it is a direct extrapolation of the card's text, so I don't think it's entirely outside the realm of possibility.

As for the actual card itself - surely we know by now that cards which poop out mana have to be carefully costed for the sake of Eternal, so really any Vintage-playable permutation of this card is subject to adding more fuel to your Black-based combo decks. Not that there aren't similar effects out there already; as far as I know no one is destroying the competition with Culling the Weak or Burnt Offering or anything like that, but the difference between getting a burst of mana versus something that sticks is pretty significant and can have wholly different applications.

[evouga]

Until you pointed it out, I didn't realize that Gild was the first card in history to create non-creature tokens. I agree that this mechanic has great potential if cards are printed which use it effectively. This four-mana clunker ain't it, though.

[MaximumCDawg]

Technically, it's just the first card to create a specific non-creature token that they have printed a token card to represent.

Anyway, yeah, bad card is bad.  I wonder why we got this so soon after the 5cc kill spell from M14 that adds black mana to your mana pool in addition to killing off a dude.  Are they potentially pushing this effect to see how strong they need to make it for tournament play?

As to the set in general, yeah, Theros and BNG both seem really casual and not very interest for Eternal.  I've said before that this has a lot to do with the mechanics they chose.  I mean, they're almost designed from the bottom up NOT to be Vintage-playable.  Devotion?  A way to allow cheap expensive creatures where cheating them onto the field accomplishes absolutely nothing.  Monstrous?  A way to hide a creature's casting cost in an activated ability to, again, make cheating it out worthless.  Heroic?  By triggering off CASTING, it rewards playing cards that are not themselves Vintage playable. Tribute?  Hey, I hear punisher mechanics do well in Vintage.  Bestow?  Hey how about that 5cc Holy Strength.

The only mechanic that is even remotely playable in Vintage is Inspired, and that's just because things untap in Vintage like they do anywhere else.  But the best Inspired cards - Almost Bob and Sphinx of Free Stuff - are inferior to other options in Vintage.  Almost Bob is too slow for normal play, and only has a shot if some weird combo engine is built around him.  Sphinx is just too expensive.

I think it's telling that the card I'm most excited about in this set is Karametra's Favor, a card which forms a two-card combo to cast Diabolic Tutor with a small upside.  Wheeee.