UR Delver

[Commandant]

I'm considering putting one underground sea, a vamp and a demonic in my list, anyone have any opinions?

Seems excellent considering all of the combos and silver bullets this list runs.

[Soly]

I'm considering putting one underground sea, a vamp and a demonic in my list, anyone have any opinions?

I have a Grixis Delver deck that does that, as well as Thoughtsiezes.  It can support Deathrite Shaman, as well.

[serracollector]

Wouldn't Yawgmoth's Will and Demonic Consultation also be excellent if your going to add Black?

[Varal]

Yawgmoth's Will seems a little expensive. This deck rarely have more than 5 mana unless Black Lotus is involved. It seems a lot less interesting to have a Lightning Bolt and a Preordain for 5 mana. It looks like an overpriced Snapcaster Mage.

[boggyb]

Look at Soly's Grixis Delver list for inspiration. Slapping those tutors into this deck will not work without some tinkering. To unfold Commandant's remark above: You're a tempo deck, and those tutors massively tax your tempo. If you can't overcome that downside with a game-ending effect, it's not worth it. Consultation would be much better than either of those, if you really want a tutor effect. (But you don't.)

[Samoht]

Have people tested Izzet Charm in this at all? It's seems like a natural fit.

[DaveKap]

What modifications would be made to play unpowered?

I'm looking at:

-1 Ancestral
+1 Probe

-1 Scroll
+1 Probe

-1 Walk
+1 Bolt

-3 Mox/Lotus
+ Volcanic, Mountain, Island

SB
-4 Leyline
-1 Mountain
+3 Rav Trap
+1 Shattering Spree
+1 Strip Mine


Thoughts?

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

@ izzet charm: It's not good enough. Not efficient enough. this deck wants specific cards to do specific things, there are no bots to discard or lack of space for creature removal. I'd try dack fayden though. Because he does it every turn. But he might be too expensive.

Unpowered means snapcaster should go. he's less good without recall and isn't one of the best cards in the deck.

I'm not sure I'd replace scroll + recall with probes, but they're not too bad. I'd recommend you:

-2 snapcaster mage
-1 ancestral
-1 walk
-1 merchant scroll
-1 fire/ice

+1 nivmagus elemental
+1 flusterstorm
+1 mystical tutor
+1 lightning bolt
+1 gitaxian probe

Nivmagus is like a 5th delver with combo potential (turn 1 nivmagus. turn 2 probe, cantrip, gush (keeping priority), fluster, exile all flusters: 9/10 nivmagus attacking turn 2, gush resolves. Without probe it's only 7/8). though you mostly use it to put a +2/+2 on him whenever a spell is countered. Mystical because it flips delvers and finds spree post board.

Sideboard changes look ok, though I'd still leave the mountain in.

[Smmenen]

What modifications would be made to play unpowered?

I'm looking at:

-1 Ancestral
+1 Probe

-1 Scroll
+1 Probe

-1 Walk
+1 Bolt

-3 Mox/Lotus
+ Volcanic, Mountain, Island

SB
-4 Leyline
-1 Mountain
+3 Rav Trap
+1 Shattering Spree
+1 Strip Mine


Thoughts?

Dave, I wouldn't add all of those mana sources.  You probably don't want more than 15 lands maindeck even if you don't have power.  I would probably consider a Lotus Petal in one of the Moxen, and I would cut the Snapcasters, as someone else mentioned, and probably play the 4th Bolt.

Off the top of my head:

- 1 Ancestral
- 1 Time Walk
- 1 Lotus
- 2 Moxen

I would:

+ 1 Misdirection
+ 1 Bolt/2nd Fire/Ice
+ 1 Flusterstorm
+ 4th Volcanic Island
+ 1 Lotus Petal

[Samoht]

I disagree with your dismissal of Charm. It's versatility is quite relevant. Cards that are potentially harmful to your plan are easily answered by it's damage clause, it counters particular troublesome cards like Oath and Deluge, and can filter as needed (don't need to bin artifacts, excess lands are a sound choice as well - especially with Gush. Powering through the clumps of extra lands is potent for a deck like this that cuts down on them so much to avoid wasted turns). While it's not better at any one facet of those things than other options, it's ability to cover the spectrum is not something I would dismiss so easily. I also think it's cheaper cost than Dak in conjunction with the aforementioned versatility makes it better for a deck without Artifact subthemes.

[Thiim]

What is the advantage of running 8 fetchlands and only 6 normal lands? would it not be better with 7 of each? put in a 4'th volcanic island og another basic island?
The deck only rely on two colors, so fetchlands are not so important as in other builds like BUG, RUG, oath, storm etc.??
It's not like we can use Jace, the mind sculptor in this deck to put away cards we don't want, and then shuffle them away, by cracking a fetchland!(we only have 1 Brainstorm)

[Protoaddict]

What is the advantage of running 8 fetchlands and only 6 normal lands? would it not be better with 7 of each? put in a 4'th volcanic island og another basic island?
The deck only rely on two colors, so fetchlands are not so important as in other builds like BUG, RUG, oath, storm etc.??
It's not like we can use Jace, the mind sculptor in this deck to put away cards we don't want, and then shuffle them away, by cracking a fetchland!(we only have 1 Brainstorm)

Besides brainstorm and ponder, fetches work with Delvers unflipped reveal and protect from stripmine.

[xouman]

And fetchlands also thin the library, something that Stephen has pointed out more than once. This deck wants to draw into business all the time, and has gush to work as "the third land" lots of times.

[StanleyAugust]

And fetchlands also thin the library, something that Stephen has pointed out more than once. This deck wants to draw into business all the time, and has gush to work as "the third land" lots of times.

They don't thin the library when there are no more lands to fetch...

[kwis]

And fetchlands also thin the library, something that Stephen has pointed out more than once. This deck wants to draw into business all the time, and has gush to work as "the third land" lots of times.

It has been proven, mathematical, several times that "thinning" is highly exaggerated. Flipping with delver, however, is the main reason.

[Varal]

Thinning has a small effects over a long game especially when you draw a lot of cards throughout the games. If you draw/scry 30 cards throughout a game, then you might get a few more live draws due to thinning. Otherwise, Brainstorm, Ponder, Delver, Wasteland, Jace are all good with fetchlands. It's hard to argue what is really the best. The difference between 6/8 or 7/7 must be pretty marginal.

[StanleyAugust]

Thinning has a small effects over a long game especially when you draw a lot of cards throughout the games. If you draw/scry 30 cards throughout a game, then you might get a few more live draws due to thinning. Otherwise, Brainstorm, Ponder, Delver, Wasteland, Jace are all good with fetchlands. It's hard to argue what is really the best. The difference between 6/8 or 7/7 must be pretty marginal.

As I just mentioned - and as should be very obvious - there's no difference in thinning between a 6/8 and a 7/7 split. That said, 6/8 is probably better because of the other reasons mentioned.

[Samoht]

I ran this at the event at TPG. I figured the field would be light on Mishra and thus I would have an interesting time. I wanted to get inside the deck and feel how it is to play it as opposed to playing against it. I swapped in some Izzet Charms and went about my day. Of course, I brought a few NY'ers with me and even convinced some more. That should have warned me about what was to come:

Rd 1: MUD
G1:Ah! Wonderful! He locks me out under Wire and Stack and I remember how much fun it is to play against a deck where I have 4 cards that interact with them.
G2: He mulls to 5 and is forced to watch me leverage a t1 Delver before being able to resolve anything.
G3: He leads Chalice for 1, but I have Mox Lotus Land Chewer and pretty much steal the game right there. Without the Lotus I'm pretty sure I can't win the game as he flashes me multiple LSG's that are held in check by my friend and his Bolt buddies. Whew! Stole one.

Rd 2: MUD! (2nd Place)
G1: He quickly plays Sphere into Wire and the game ends when he casts Forgemaster. That was fun!
G2: I lead out with a Delver and try to protect it with FoW, but he has a Wire to go after the threat and it quickly becomes Delver and some lands looking at Wire, Forgemaster and Sphere. He gets Hellkite and Metamorphs his Wire and that was that. If I had Hurkyl's in my deck I'd have had a very small chance, but I don't think it would have mattered all that much as he could have easily acquired Titan and Metamorphed that instead and left me with no lands facing down 2 Sundering Titans and a Sphere.

Rd 3: UBg Landstill
G1: Finally, a blue deck! The game goes about 20 turns, but Izzet Charm shines as it controls the Creeping Tar Pits freeing up Lightning Bolt for planeswalkers. I'm forced to chain Gushes when at 3 facing a live Tar Pit and hit my out of Bolt/Mage for lethal. Closer than I'd have liked!
G2: My hand is a bit more aggressive and he had a mulligan, so Pyromancer leverages me a lot of life points. He wipes but I tempo back in with Snapcaster and manage to take it.

Rd 4: Mono Red Magus
G1: He locks me out with Chalice 1, 2, and finally 0. I landed an early Pyromancer and fired off a bunch of dead spells to make 1/1's. The turning point was when he went to Chaos Warp my Pyromancer. I Misdirection'ed it to his Chalice 2, which allowed me to Snapcaster Mage -> Izzet Charm his Simian Spirit Guide and create a lethal attack sequence.
G2: Again he has Chalices but I am prepared with Chewers. My Delvers win the race when backed by burn.

Rd 5: MUD!!!!! (3rd)
3 of the 4 MUD decks in the event. Definitely wasn't a good day to sleeve up delver. Though I'm on the play in G1 it doesn't really matter as my opponent has Metalworker + Chalice 1 into Blightsteel. Game 2 is similar, though some incorrect sequencing almost bought me a turn. It ended up not mattering at all because Chalice turns off my whole hand.

Overall, I feel this deck is favored against Big Blue and Storm. It is at parity with most of the modern Rod decks. It has a hard time racing Dredge but can leverage some tempo games. It can almost never win a 3 game set against a Shop deck. It requires a lot of help from the Magic gods to even make it possible. Chalice at 1 is a severe beating, and Chalice at 2 isn't much better. Facing down that card is a real problem. Izzet Charm overperformed for me all day. It countered critical spells against Landstill and MUD (in rd1) while keeping me alive or pressuring in damage. It also allowed me to use Gush more efficiently inside land clumps. I'd recommend the card to anyone trying this deck in the future. If you expect Mishra to be a presence at any event however, I'd be very wary of taking out this deck.

Oh and when you hear someone name Praetor with Cavern of Souls and drop in Elesh Norn, you should probably pick up your cards...

[John Cox]

Anyone have any thoughts on dack fayden in this deck? I'm thinking of cutting a preordain and the steel sabotage for 2.

[mmcgeach]

Anyone have any thoughts on dack fayden in this deck? I'm thinking of cutting a preordain and the steel sabotage for 2.

Dack's an extremely good magic card and should be playable in most blue decks.  He doesn't win you the game by himself (unlike jace or tezz), but he steals tinker targets and sculpts your hand extremely well, and is very easy to play off a Turn 3 Gush with 2 lands.

[Smmenen]

Anyone have any thoughts on dack fayden in this deck? I'm thinking of cutting a preordain and the steel sabotage for 2.

I played Dack Fayden in this deck this weekend, and it was amazing.  I cut the Steel Sabotage and ran 1.  Dack Fayden is perfect for this deck because it can be used in the late game so well to get rid of extra lands, and works so well with Gush.  Gush + Dack Fayden is a combo. 

[Thiim]

Stephen I see that you changed the deck a bit for this tournament:

8th - Stephen Menendian
U/R Pyromancer

4 Gush
4 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Misdirection
3 Mental Misstep
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Trygon Predator
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

SB:

1 Nature’s Claim
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pyroblast
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Mountain

To my surprize you cutted the 2 Vendilion Clique from the main and merchant scroll, how can this be? did you miss these cards during the event?
Instead you added a mystical tutor, i can see why this would be better in some situations instead of the scroll.

I have some sideboard sugestions:

I would run 4 Cage every single time, over leyline of the void/ravenous trap, when i'm not on black color. Also improves oath matchup.

Dismember against the creature matchup, also very good against shop decks.

mindbreak trap against storm and big blue, maybe cut a pyroblast for this?

This version have a much better oath MU, which is important in most meta's. How would you feel about adding the mox emerald? It would bring more speed to the deck and a better chance of casting trygon predator and grudge. Also a benefit if opponent run wastelands.

[Smmenen]

I'm writing a tournament report that will answer those questions.

[TheWhiteDragon]

What modifications would be made to play unpowered?

I'm looking at:

-1 Ancestral
+1 Probe

-1 Scroll
+1 Probe

-1 Walk
+1 Bolt

-3 Mox/Lotus
+ Volcanic, Mountain, Island

SB
-4 Leyline
-1 Mountain
+3 Rav Trap
+1 Shattering Spree
+1 Strip Mine


Thoughts?

Dave, I wouldn't add all of those mana sources.  You probably don't want more than 15 lands maindeck even if you don't have power.  I would probably consider a Lotus Petal in one of the Moxen, and I would cut the Snapcasters, as someone else mentioned, and probably play the 4th Bolt.

Off the top of my head:

- 1 Ancestral
- 1 Time Walk
- 1 Lotus
- 2 Moxen

I would:

+ 1 Misdirection
+ 1 Bolt/2nd Fire/Ice
+ 1 Flusterstorm
+ 4th Volcanic Island
+ 1 Lotus Petal

At the point we are at with prices, if you want to go unpowered, you should probably cut blue duals and blue fetches at this point.

[MoonDark]

I'm writing a tournament report that will answer those questions.

Would love to read it, you still working on it? 

[Smmenen]

I'm writing a tournament report that will answer those questions.

Would love to read it, you still working on it? 

Yes.  I gave it a good push last night.  It'll be done in another week or so, and will be a free article.  It's just typically long. 

[voltron00x]

I'm writing a tournament report that will answer those questions.

Would love to read it, you still working on it? 

Yes.  I gave it a good push last night.  It'll be done in another week or so, and will be a free article.  It's just typically long. 

Nice deck.  I may play this the next time I get to play Vintage, it looks like a deck I'd really enjoy playing.  Did you fly into Philly for the NY tournament, on Friday night?  I thought I saw you at the airport but I was flying back in from a week in Columbus, OH for work and my brain was fried.

[Aaron Patten]

This list makes me want to play a clamp and a Fastbond but I suppose the lack of tutors makes Fastbond a bit sketchy.  

[Smmenen]

I'm writing a tournament report that will answer those questions.

Would love to read it, you still working on it? 

Yes.  I gave it a good push last night.  It'll be done in another week or so, and will be a free article.  It's just typically long. 

Nice deck.  I may play this the next time I get to play Vintage, it looks like a deck I'd really enjoy playing.  Did you fly into Philly for the NY tournament, on Friday night?  I thought I saw you at the airport but I was flying back in from a week in Columbus, OH for work and my brain was fried.

Actually, I did!  I flew from SFO to Philly.  Where were you in Columbus?  I'm from there!

[thecrav]

This list makes me want to play a clamp and a Fastbond

This is exactly what I've been thinking as I've been testing this list.

but I suppose the lack of tutors makes Fastbond a bit sketchy.

I think the huge amount of card draw helps to offset that. The worst that can happen is you don't find it, which puts you more or less in the same situation as before (depending on what you cut for it)