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Author Topic: Night's Whisper Control Slaver  (Read 25975 times)
zeus-online
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« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2014, 11:13:30 am »

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« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2014, 11:29:38 am »

Am I right in saying that Baleful Strix is mostly used as a defensive creature in this deck (on account of its having flying and deathtouch)? If that is true, I would expect that it would get worse as more people play more cards like Abrupt Decay or Lightning Bolt. Do you think that permanents which are defensive are the way to go? Or is it better to try out additional (defensive) removal spells like Lightning Bolt?

I guess this is related to what Zherbus noted earlier when he said he'd been testing Lightning Bolt and Snapcaster Mage and had been having more favourable results v aggro-control decks. I'm just wondering if this is because permanent removal is become a bit more common in the format or if I am missing something.

I think you are missing the interaction with goblin welder, and how the strix interacts with the sphere effects in the workshop decks.

I did think about that but I am probably underrating it. Thanks for the reply.
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« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2014, 11:44:12 am »

Am I right in saying that Baleful Strix is mostly used as a defensive creature in this deck (on account of its having flying and deathtouch)? If that is true, I would expect that it would get worse as more people play more cards like Abrupt Decay or Lightning Bolt. Do you think that permanents which are defensive are the way to go? Or is it better to try out additional (defensive) removal spells like Lightning Bolt?
Strix actually gets BETTER if people are using this kind of removal.  If you play Strix and your opponent Abrupt Decays it, you're +1 card on them and you've each spent 2 mana.  Plus, they've used their best removal to uncounterably destroy something that has literally nothing to do with your gameplan.
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« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2014, 12:01:21 pm »

Am I right in saying that Baleful Strix is mostly used as a defensive creature in this deck (on account of its having flying and deathtouch)? If that is true, I would expect that it would get worse as more people play more cards like Abrupt Decay or Lightning Bolt. Do you think that permanents which are defensive are the way to go? Or is it better to try out additional (defensive) removal spells like Lightning Bolt?
Strix actually gets BETTER if people are using this kind of removal.  If you play Strix and your opponent Abrupt Decays it, you're +1 card on them and you've each spent 2 mana.  Plus, they've used their best removal to uncounterably destroy something that has literally nothing to do with your gameplan.

I get what you're saying, but I am not convinced that this line of thinking is entirely correct. If you are in the business of maximizing card quantity and / or quality as a resource then spending a card to be down a card but up life is not worth it (example, you Abrupt Decay an opponent's Baleful Strix so as to allow your creature to attack). But typically the decks against which you would be using Baleful Strix in a defensive fashion are in the business of reducing your life total to zero while delaying the execution of your game plan for as long as possible (example, a RUG Delver deck or something else similar where no combo win is achievable). With that in mind, you can be at maximum hand size but if your life total is zero it doesn't mean much.

I guess that is part of my question is, is Baleful Strix being used in a defensive fashion? If so, does it do this in an adequately reliable fashion or would something like Lightning Bolt be more reliable?

I hope I communicated myself well. Please let me know if anything I said was unclear, and thank you for the reply.
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« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2014, 12:05:24 pm »

Baleful Strix does a few neat things. He stops Tarmogoyfs and Lodestones from killing you. He's card advantage for Welder. He's an artifact for Thirst and against Lodestone, and a creature against Thorn. What he does not do, sadly, is stop Dark Confidant from drawing lots of cards. He's very good against some threats, not so much against others.
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« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2014, 12:18:15 pm »

Fair. Thank you for the reply
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« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2014, 08:11:52 pm »

I would find room for a Trinisphere in the sideboard if Gush-based strategies are a problem.  It find it to the single best card for a Drain-based deck to combat Gush.  It can be very powerful in a Drain-based control deck, partly because it is so unexpected.  The card also serves well against Dark Ritual-based strategies.

As Zherbus knows, Orb of Dreams is another sideboard option against Gush-based strategies.  Though it probably wouldn't make the cut.

Would Izzet Charm be better than the second Dack Fayden?  Perhaps in the right metagame, it would be.
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« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2014, 11:18:31 pm »

You have no idea how much Dack does in this list. Not only he enables Welder, but he finds answers. He can also steal moxen, Sol Rings, and stuff to generate mana and also fuels Welder. I've been thinking about adding Dack's, not removing them Razz (but I think 2 is the right number anyhow)
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« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2014, 02:00:31 am »

The Atog Lord makes an insightful analogy between FTK and Jace 2.0, but it is only a fair one insofar as Jace's -1 ability can be used without further mana.  Jace's +1 ability is exactly like Gifts in that further mana is usually needed to affect the board, i.e. to use the the new cards.  So Gifts is not inferior in that respect.
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« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2014, 11:10:53 am »

FTK is amazing if you can get him on the stack. Neither BUG or RUG run any non-FoW hard counters, so it's a 2 for 1 against them every time it hits the stack. Against UW variants, they generally have drain so it's not necessarily as strong.

Notion Thief is great against RUG and has an adorable interaction with Dack Fayden. You don't build around that combo, because there are better combos to accelerate, but it's certainly great when it happens organically.

The re-inclusion of Snapcaster Mage has been all around better. It gives the deck more explosive power, but lacking Baleful Strix against MUD is a minor downside. Still, MUD is too good of a matchup for that to really matter.

Here's what I've been running for a while before being sent out of town for work:

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Flusterstorm
2 Mana Drain

1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Mindslaver
1 Notion Thief
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Goblin Welder
0 Baleful Strix

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Night's Whisper
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Fire/Ice
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Dack Fayden

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast
2 Flametongue Kavu
3 Ingot Chewer
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb

Now that I'm home for most of the week, I get to go back in to the fray. Sadly, I missed the Qualifier/Champs season, but it couldn't be avoided.
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« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2014, 12:43:38 pm »

Have you tried Keranos instead of FTK. It can be natures claimed but otherwise can do a lot for one more blue. Top helps make it a bit more predictable too.

Marc
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« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2014, 12:58:00 pm »

Rich and I did. He was very difficult to get down in a reasonable amount of time. Whenever games were won, Keranos had nothing to do with it. Whenever there was a loss, there was a likely hood Keranos was stranded in the hand somewhere. We tested him pretty early on in the vetting process.
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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2014, 12:58:59 pm »

Have you tried Keranos instead of FTK. It can be natures claimed but otherwise can do a lot for one more blue. Top helps make it a bit more predictable too.

Marc

Keranos is indestructible. He can't be Nature's Claimed.
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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2014, 01:58:59 pm »

I've been playing something close to Rich's list on modo and have been having a tough time recently coming up with colored mana due to the increase of wasteland decks, so I'll give this list a try.

Here's a general question: how has welder been performing for everyone? I have occasionally had sweet plays like welding out a battlesphere in response to hurkyl's or messing with workshop players. However, the lists have been evolving in such a way that there are few incremental things to do with welder. I have been disappointed with strix as well and cut it. The only maindeck trick in Zherbus's list, other than blowouts with battlesphere and mindslaver recursion, is welding out the top in response to activating the draw.

I'll probably try a welderless list in the near future (something like -2 welder, -1 MS, +vault/key), but I'm wondering if anyone has already done some testing. Taking out the welders is a departure from the history of the deck, and turns it into grixis control with NW, but welder seems a lot less crucial than back in the days of unrestricted TfK and more robots.
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« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2014, 02:26:03 pm »

Regarding Keranos, this isn't the shell for him. I found him quite good in a Trinket Mage based UR control deck were he served as a virtually unkillable finisher who occasionally came down uncounterably via Cavern of Souls on God. Tom Dixon also played a similar list at Waterbury to a 5-2 finish. The finishers in Welder Strix are generally Tinker and Will which the UR control can't run.
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« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2014, 02:45:19 pm »

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« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2014, 04:48:54 pm »

I understand maybe dropping gifts and fact or fiction but why is thirst for knowledge not an auto include in all these lists? I mean isnt that a big reason dack made it even possible replacing thirst?
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« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2014, 05:03:08 pm »

I could see a Toxic Deluge or a Engineered Explosives added to the sb against aggro decks, since I find matches like the Merfolk matchup very, very hard. Am I wrong?

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« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2014, 07:20:35 pm »

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Vintage Daily #7466707 on 09/16/2014

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Goblin Welder
1 Myr Battlesphere
2 Notion Thief
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
4 Dack Fayden
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Night's Whisper
1 Ponder
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Voltaic Key
1 Yawgmoth's Will


1 Tsabo's Web
1 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pyroclasm
2 Shattering Spree

Is the online meta getting so ingrown that you need tsabo's web to combat man lands/wastes/bazaars/library?  Also, why 4 dacks and 0 jace?
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« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2014, 09:12:25 pm »

What's "FTK"?
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« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2014, 09:31:49 pm »

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« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2014, 10:33:04 am »

Wow. Tsabo's Web seems really clever to combat Terra Nova. Smile

I also really like Bloodstained Mire for swamps and mountains. 4 Dack and 0 Jace also seem great to me. Jace always felt slow and subpar in this list.

Also Deathrite seems nice. I really like how you're evolving the list, Rich!
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« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2014, 12:58:33 am »

The Atog Lord (3-1)
Vintage Daily #7466707 on 09/16/2014

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Goblin Welder
1 Myr Battlesphere
2 Notion Thief
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
4 Dack Fayden
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Night's Whisper
1 Ponder
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Voltaic Key
1 Yawgmoth's Will


1 Tsabo's Web
1 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pyroclasm
2 Shattering Spree

Is the online meta getting so ingrown that you need tsabo's web to combat man lands/wastes/bazaars/library?  Also, why 4 dacks and 0 jace?

I played Rich in that DE. He told me he was testing his deck to be specifically tuned to beat Picula's workshop deck in the VSL. It is not due to the MTGO, or even paper, metagame. Needless to say, I was playing Shops and his incredible number of artifact hate cards destroyed me.
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« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2014, 01:22:40 am »

Yes. That list, which morphed a bit before becoming the vsl list I'm playing currently, is not designed for a general metagame. Instead, it is built specifically to combat what I expected to see in these three weeks. Unfortunately, my expected metagame failed to include Pyromancer Ascension Combo.

Also, note that at least part of the decision to run no Mindslaver is due to that card still being bugged on MODO. It's unfortunate that my favorite card still doesn't work. Well, I guess, in fairness to those guys, they have only had ten years to get the card right.
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« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2014, 08:54:34 am »

I really don't understand this view.  Kowal basically said the positive version of this.  My take is that people really need to stretch out their spectrum of game-states.  If I have four mana, I ALWAYS want to resolve Gifts Ungiven.  You can do so much with the card, including a pile that will build an even game state or small advantage into a victory.  It will do this even rather late in the game when you don't have much gas left in the deck.

There are metagame considerations (eg, if your store is full of flusterstorm), but there is no lacking capacity in the card itself (at least not in this list).

I never said it was a bad card, i just find that utilizing it is very mana heavy. Gifting early was great in meandeck gifts, for sure...i think over half my gift piles was for mana back then(Lotus, academy, mana crypt, something).
I dislike gifting for advantage only, and i generally think jace does more for a deck than gifts does except in the game state where gifts is lethal.

I also think that in game states where i have four mana in the first two turns of the game, jace does so much more, and i actually don't even like casting gifts in these game states.
Maybe we are using the card differently? and while i am willing to discuss the card further, i think we should perhaps do it somewhere else rather than derail this thread.



Gifts Ungiven is a great Magic card. It is a card that you can build a deck around, with cards like Recoup. However, that tends to mean running a full set of the card, and that is not an option for us. Instead, we can at best use Gifts as a broken four-drop. I wouldn't call Gifts Ungiven incorrect by any means -- but I also wouldn't consider running it myself.

Gifts Ungiven is an optimist's card. When you have a Yawgmoth's Will that is about to happen, then you win the game. When you have an active Welder, you win the game. When you have huge piles of mana and a Hellbent opponent, you can win the game. But you know, I am not interested in that. I don't want cards with high upside at four mana. If I did, I would just play Hidetsugu's Second Rite.

Instead, for four mana, I want cards that shut down gameplans. I want cards that can be a powerful play when things aren't going well. And I most of all want my four-drops to be cards that don't require more mana to be go. After testing both Olivia and FTK, I'm sold on FTK being the better card, despite its being less flashy. Likewise, at four mana, I'd rather have Jace than Gifts.

I don't understand how it is possible to prefer Jace to Gifts Ungiven whan you can play a 4CC spell...
When it was possible to play 4 copies of Gifts Ungiven, it was usual to make mana piles, or piles including another copy of Gifts Ungiven.
But when you can play only one copy of the card, you must use it at its optimal power : the immediate win.

Gifts Ungiven is like Yawgmoth's Bargain : it is written "I win" on the card.
But I understand that the card if more difficult to play properly than Jace.
Jace can (sometimes) win the game, but often against other control decks.
Against aggro decks, if I have 4 manas available on turns 1 or 2, I will never want to cast Jace !
And against control decks, trying to resolve a Jace like that is suicide when the opponent plays Mana drain!

Concerning colored mana, Jace needs UU where Gifts needs U : huge difference.
Concerning speed, Jace is a ritual speed spell where Gifts is an instant speed spell : second huge difference.
Third difference : Gifts Ungiven, well played, wins you the game on the spot, where Jace wins the game only half or third of the times, and usually against control decks only.

Jace is a very strong card, but let's be honest : the card is not restricted instead of Gifts Ungiven which is limited.
If Gifts is restricted and Jace is not, there is a reason, it isn't  Wink ??

In order to be told about that fact, just ask to DCI to derestrict Gifts....you will see the results very quickly  Wink
Next Top8s full of Jace.decks or Gifts.decks ? I think everybody knows the answer  Smile





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« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2014, 02:24:32 pm »


I don't understand how it is possible to prefer Jace to Gifts Ungiven whan you can play a 4CC spell...
When it was possible to play 4 copies of Gifts Ungiven, it was usual to make mana piles, or piles including another copy of Gifts Ungiven.
But when you can play only one copy of the card, you must use it at its optimal power : the immediate win.

Gifts Ungiven is like Yawgmoth's Bargain : it is written "I win" on the card.
But I understand that the card if more difficult to play properly than Jace.
Jace can (sometimes) win the game, but often against other control decks.
Against aggro decks, if I have 4 manas available on turns 1 or 2, I will never want to cast Jace !
And against control decks, trying to resolve a Jace like that is suicide when the opponent plays Mana drain!

Concerning colored mana, Jace needs UU where Gifts needs U : huge difference.
Concerning speed, Jace is a ritual speed spell where Gifts is an instant speed spell : second huge difference.
Third difference : Gifts Ungiven, well played, wins you the game on the spot, where Jace wins the game only half or third of the times, and usually against control decks only.

Jace is a very strong card, but let's be honest : the card is not restricted instead of Gifts Ungiven which is limited.
If Gifts is restricted and Jace is not, there is a reason, it isn't  Wink ??

In order to be told about that fact, just ask to DCI to derestrict Gifts....you will see the results very quickly  Wink
Next Top8s full of Jace.decks or Gifts.decks ? I think everybody knows the answer  Smile


I disagree with almost everything you said, except for factual statements like Gifts is  {3} {U} instant and Jace is a  {2} {U} {U} planeswalker.

1) Jace is incredibly difficult to play optimally. I have been playing Jace based control decks for about a year and a half now, have won several pieces of power with them, and still find myself misplaying with Jace. That said, it is harder to flat out punt the game with Jace than with an incorrect Gifts pile.

2) While I don't have time to discuss the nuances of Jace in the control matchup, I would recommend not casting an unprotected Jace into an opponent's Mana Drain.

3) The argument that a card is restricted is a very poor argument for one card being better than another. Until recently, Regrowth was restricted and since being unrestricted, has hardly warped the metagame. Graveyard hate has also increased as Grafdigger's Cage and Deathrite Shaman are maindeck cards that make constructing Gifts piles more difficult. Simply saying a card is restricted fails to take into account subsequent printings and changes to the metagame.

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« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2014, 12:10:40 pm »


I disagree with almost everything you said, except for factual statements like Gifts is  {3} {U} instant and Jace is a  {2} {U} {U} planeswalker.

1) Jace is incredibly difficult to play optimally. I have been playing Jace based control decks for about a year and a half now, have won several pieces of power with them, and still find myself misplaying with Jace. That said, it is harder to flat out punt the game with Jace than with an incorrect Gifts pile.

2) While I don't have time to discuss the nuances of Jace in the control matchup, I would recommend not casting an unprotected Jace into an opponent's Mana Drain.

3) The argument that a card is restricted is a very poor argument for one card being better than another. Until recently, Regrowth was restricted and since being unrestricted, has hardly warped the metagame. Graveyard hate has also increased as Grafdigger's Cage and Deathrite Shaman are maindeck cards that make constructing Gifts piles more difficult. Simply saying a card is restricted fails to take into account subsequent printings and changes to the metagame.



1) I don't say that Jace is easy to play. It has 3 very good capacities so you have to make a choice each turn. But even is the card is hard to play, Gifts Ungiven is far more diffilcult to play ! It is easy to find a strong pile of 4 good cards...But often, you have only ONE optimal pile which gives you immediatly the victory, and THIS pile is very difficult to find.
You disagree with almost everything I said, ok, from my side, I won also several pieces of power with Gifts Ungiven, and still find myself misplaying with Gifts...so who is right ? You or me, or both ?

2) The instant speed of Gifts gives you a big advantage by minimising the effect of a Mana drain. You can cast it EOT when you have 4 manas. With Jace, it is impossible, you must wait having several backs-up to be sure that an opponent Mana drain will not resolve.

3) "The argument that a card is restricted is a very poor argument for one card being better than another." Sure! Everyboby knows that cards are restricted for the fun, and absolutely not accordingly to their own power Wink It you are sure of your affirmation, ask Smennen to ask to DCI to derestrict Gifts Ungiven, just for curiosity! Even with 10 Deathrite Shaman in the deck, a deck with 4 Gifts Ungiven will beat him !
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« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2014, 01:29:29 pm »

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« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2014, 03:41:57 pm »

If you look at the meandeck gifts decklists from that period you will notice that both brainstorm and merchant scroll are currently restricted. If you review menendians articles on meandeck gifts you will quickly discover that merchant scroll was a very important part of that particular deck, why? Because it allowed the gifts deck to resolve ancestral recall which gave the deck the resources necessary to execute the gifts -> will plan.
Gifts is a card that wins you the game on the spot if, and only if, you can amass the mana to do so, can resolve gifts and can remove any permanent based solutions.

I know very well what you are saying. Smennen didn't discover that Merchant Scroll could search Ancestral Recall and resolve it for 1UU. Many french players were using several Scrolls in their deck before the popularization of this habit in the US.
Why do you talk about the need of removing permanent based solutions ? In a situation where you have to remove something out of the board in order to win, you will have to do the same with Fact or Fiction or Jace. The difference is that even if you remove the problem , fact or jace will not automaticaly give you the win, where Gifts Ungiven will win the game. Yes, with Gifts, you need a window to kill, but a window in one turn is enough. Give me names of other cards that can do he same ? Only very few cards exist, like Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Bargain, Necropotence, Doomsday or Mind's Desire.

Other point : you only talk about Meandeck Gifts. This in not the only way to play Gifts Ungiven. I prefer play it with Auriok Salvagers, you need less mana than the Recoup plan.


You will also notice that there has been a massive amount of cards added to the vintage card pool over the last decade, mostly in the form of powerful creatures and very cheap and effective new disruption.

In my opinion, gifts ungiven is probably the safest card to unrestrict at this point in time. Although i will not discuss this further here, if you want to discuss that issue, open a thread in the vintage issue forum.

As a last point: Gifts ungiven is probably one of the least played cards on the restrict list right now. Many choose the unrestricted fact or fiction, tezzeret the seeker or jace instead of gifts.

So you think that if a card is not played, automatically it is bad ? The argument is very poor.
The card is not very played because many players can't play it properly.
Fact or fiction, Tezzeret the seeker or Jace are far easier to play.

And in order to come back on the thread, I think that it would be a real mistake NOT to play Gifts Ungiven in a deck like Slaver.
The card is always strong by itself (double demonic tutor for 3U !), and if you have an active welder on play, it's an automatic win !
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 03:48:33 pm by kalisia » Logged
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« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2014, 04:05:55 pm »

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« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 12:47:06 pm by zeus-online » Logged

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