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Author Topic: Vintage Super League  (Read 81233 times)
Smmenen
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« Reply #480 on: February 23, 2015, 05:43:40 pm »

Well, all I can say is I like getting turns and I like not playing just blue mirrors match after match. It's basically stone fact that Shops is what enables the above in Vintage.

As far as the VSL goes, what I find interesting is to see guys like Pikula and LSV - ie high profile players that actually know Vintage and do well, instead of embarrassing themselves or drawing favourable matchups - and their insight on certain Vintage fundamentals. Like, they were all in on Cruise while a large section of the community thought it was ok to run a reasonable facsimile of Ancestral; and now they're giving us a terrifying vision into an alternate reality where it's ok to run turn 1/2 kill decks when you know nobody's running Shops to stop you.


The choices of deck in the VSL are absurd and boring.

They are?  I thought they were fun and exciting.  Doomsday, Belcher, Josh's deck choices - I think they're fun and interesting. 

Quote

Half the players being on this ridiculous belcher concoction

That's not even remotely true.  How many players are actually playing this Belcher deck?   There are ten players in the league. 

Quote


that is really ONLY good vs. slower tempo blue decks and then the other Half of the players being in URx Delver is just bad deck choice IMO (even with Mentor not being allowed yet).


That's funny.  URx Delver is a bad choice?  I think many players are of the view that it's actually the best choice. 

Quote

1. Shops. -- Seriously, WTF guys! C'mon Kai! you're a pro. Make it happen in the next round Smile.
2. Oath -- Pretty good game vs. little red men I hear.
3. Tasigur Bomberman Gifts -- This deck is utterly insane and when Tasigur becomes legal I want to see more of it across the VSL.
4. Mentor Gifts/ Mentor Remora Gush, Mentor TPS -- These lists are also quite good and much better at being fast and resilient than Blue Belcher.


So, you rail against the deck choices of the players, and then recommend 4 decks. 

The 4th deck is a deck that isn't even legal in the first three weeks.  So how could players "really" be playing it if it wasn't legal?  that doesn't even make sense. 

Oath, your second rec, was very well represented in the Finals of Season 1 of the VSL.  So check there.

Shops was played in the first season of the VSL in all three trimesters of the tournament, so it's not as if people aren't willing to play Shops either.

Finally, Tasigur Bomberman Gifts is your last recommendation?  Talking about absurd...  How do you reconcile that recommendation with the suggestion that the VSL better represent the metagame?  What % of tops 8s is this deck right now? 

Quote
Guys, I get it. You want to have fun and playing a cool throwback deck like Belcher is fun. You also need to remember that you are ambassadors of Vintage to the general magic community and if the prospective players out there try to just copy the VSL deck lists that are clearly sketchy then you're doing a disservice to the format. When some poor sap starts piloting Belcher without knowing that shops is a deck and just gets blown out by it at a tournament that player is probably gonna quit Vintage never to return.

The same could be said with even greater force about Humans or Tasiguir Bomberman Gifts.

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tribet
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« Reply #481 on: February 23, 2015, 07:05:26 pm »

Ild like to see:
- Standard Grixis
- Bomberman
- Landstill(s)
- Dark Depths
- Affinity
- RG Xmas beating
- BUG
- Marinara Shop

I don't want to see the best decks. I want to see a variety of coherent decks properly built and tested. Then we can discuss about their role in Vintage (or the role they used to have, etc...) Which would make very interesting streams.
Each season is like the opportunity to see 34+ decks (old, current and brews if properly tested)
Then the VSL players are competitive players
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #482 on: February 23, 2015, 07:36:54 pm »

However, I do think that the VSL players are doing a disservice to the community by not representing key decks in the format and also representing them with suboptimal play (I'm looking at you dredge pilots from the last round of the VSL *facepalm*). It would be nice to see some killer Shop, Oath, Dredge, and even Hate-bear pilots on the VSL shake things up a bit. I hope this happens in future weeks.

-Storm

Pot. Meet kettle.

I watched your vintage stream for approximately 60 seconds and you had already made an awful play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1kphOunG-Q&feature=youtu.be

You play the wrong land on turn 1. If you play the Noble off the Bayou, you can play Bob and Wasteland on turn 2. Instead you "sub-optimally" fetch up a Savannah for the turn 1 Hierarch.

So please reconsider complaining about the small mistakes players make during the course of the free Tuesday night entertainment they are providing for you. I make errors as well while playing Magic. We all do. Sometimes I'm locked in and I don't for long stretches. Sometimes I drop to drink copious amounts of beer after making a couple of bad ones.

Regards,
Sean O'Brien




Umm. . . you don't often want to waste that aggressively unless you are facing shops and usually they aren't going to lead with a waste-worthy land if they know you're on a wasteland deck. fetching turn 1 means that if I run out knight on turn 3 I can waste first and have a creature that is out of bolt range. There is also a very good argument to be made for immediate deck thinning when you have a hand filled with lands to potentially improve your draws. This deck runs no sensei's top or similar effect so you want to thin as fast as possible usually. Versus a blind opponent that MIGHT be on shops you have maybe a point, but again, I usually don't waste their first land drop if it is a tomb, only if it is a shop. I can't believe you are passing total judgement on me as a player by watching a minute of my playing. I will comb back through the dredge games and point out only mistakes that I think were fundamental and egregious. That wasn't even really a "mistake" if you consider the points I just made. Not bazaaring on upkeep to make sure you get to bin dredgers for the draw step (not saying you did this so don't accuse me of saying you did) is a pretty fundamental missplay and shows a lack of understanding of the dredge archetype needed for any chance at victory. Again, that's just a potential example. I'd have to re-watch the videos to see if they were really that winnable.

-Storm
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 07:39:26 pm by Stormanimagus » Logged

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« Reply #483 on: February 23, 2015, 07:45:37 pm »


I think you've played the deck well, including against Steve, where you simply got extremely unlucky never drawing dredgers. The only mistake I noticed was conceding after the mulligan to oblivion: Steve's deck is relatively soft vs dredge and if you had drawn a Bazaar in the first couple of turns, could still have won the game.

It wasn't a mistake, I was consciously quitting. I was over it. It was almost 1am in NYC and I had been on the stream since the beginning and was starving and didn't feel like playing vs Steve and his glacial pace for the 5% chance at winning.
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #484 on: February 23, 2015, 08:02:21 pm »

Well, all I can say is I like getting turns and I like not playing just blue mirrors match after match. It's basically stone fact that Shops is what enables the above in Vintage.

As far as the VSL goes, what I find interesting is to see guys like Pikula and LSV - ie high profile players that actually know Vintage and do well, instead of embarrassing themselves or drawing favourable matchups - and their insight on certain Vintage fundamentals. Like, they were all in on Cruise while a large section of the community thought it was ok to run a reasonable facsimile of Ancestral; and now they're giving us a terrifying vision into an alternate reality where it's ok to run turn 1/2 kill decks when you know nobody's running Shops to stop you.


The choices of deck in the VSL are absurd and boring.

They are?  I thought they were fun and exciting.  Doomsday, Belcher, Josh's deck choices - I think they're fun and interesting. 

Quote

Half the players being on this ridiculous belcher concoction

That's not even remotely true.  How many players are actually playing this Belcher deck?   There are ten players in the league. 

Quote


that is really ONLY good vs. slower tempo blue decks and then the other Half of the players being in URx Delver is just bad deck choice IMO (even with Mentor not being allowed yet).


That's funny.  URx Delver is a bad choice?  I think many players are of the view that it's actually the best choice. 

Quote

1. Shops. -- Seriously, WTF guys! C'mon Kai! you're a pro. Make it happen in the next round Smile.
2. Oath -- Pretty good game vs. little red men I hear.
3. Tasigur Bomberman Gifts -- This deck is utterly insane and when Tasigur becomes legal I want to see more of it across the VSL.
4. Mentor Gifts/ Mentor Remora Gush, Mentor TPS -- These lists are also quite good and much better at being fast and resilient than Blue Belcher.


So, you rail against the deck choices of the players, and then recommend 4 decks. 

The 4th deck is a deck that isn't even legal in the first three weeks.  So how could players "really" be playing it if it wasn't legal?  that doesn't even make sense. 

Oath, your second rec, was very well represented in the Finals of Season 1 of the VSL.  So check there.

Shops was played in the first season of the VSL in all three trimesters of the tournament, so it's not as if people aren't willing to play Shops either.

Finally, Tasigur Bomberman Gifts is your last recommendation?  Talking about absurd...  How do you reconcile that recommendation with the suggestion that the VSL better represent the metagame?  What % of tops 8s is this deck right now? 

Quote
Guys, I get it. You want to have fun and playing a cool throwback deck like Belcher is fun. You also need to remember that you are ambassadors of Vintage to the general magic community and if the prospective players out there try to just copy the VSL deck lists that are clearly sketchy then you're doing a disservice to the format. When some poor sap starts piloting Belcher without knowing that shops is a deck and just gets blown out by it at a tournament that player is probably gonna quit Vintage never to return.

The same could be said with even greater force about Humans or Tasiguir Bomberman Gifts.



Stephen you need to stop nit-picking everything I say and try to understand my meaning. I didn't mean I wanted the VSL players to play those 4 decks prior to the week Mentor becomes legal (obviously I'm simply saying for the FUTURE rounds of the tourney). You frequently try to make me look stupid in these debates and it's hurtful. Please stop. If you can't see how these comments come across maybe run them by someone first. I try to have heated debate but to keep things civil and respectful as much as I can. If I'm deviating from that please call me on it or have one of the moderators do so, but I will not stand by and have my intelligence insulted like that. Now, back to the discussion.

I know shops was played in the first season of the VSL. I watched a lot of it. I'm glad it was represented, but I still feel like it needs more piloting to iron out some of the wrinkles I'm seeing when VSL players play it. I'd like to see some shop experts invited to the VSL (Rob Vroman, Nick Detwiler, one or both of the Forino's, Roland Chang). Also, I'd hardly call Bomberman a rogue deck these days. It sees a fair number of top 8's and has definitely earned its slot in the metagame. Tasigur Gifts Bomberman is just an extension of that already existing archetype that I predict will be the best version going forward. It's hard to base deck suggestions solely on tournament results when a card is this new. That's why I'd like to see some of these cards in action on the VSL. Did blue belcher have really any tourney success before it was unleashed on the VSL (btw, to your other comment about me overstating the representation of blue belcher - 2-3 players on the deck out of 10 is a lot when you consider that the deck really hasn't proven itself to be a major archetype IRL)? Decks can't always be a metagame rock before they are tried out. That's part of the fun surprise factor of Vintage tournaments and I'd like to see that on the VSL (that has entertainment value as well because variety means entertainment value to most players).

I'm not going to debate pyromancer delver's validity any more in these forums after this point as I think I've already gotten too many pros up in arms about this. I acknowledge that it is a solid enough deck with clear advantages over other blue archetypes. I know it has had success in not only MODO but IRL.

My final stance on that deck is that I feel its days are numbered and that it will be outclassed in the role of combo, control, and aggro by mentor decks that I expect to crop up. The only place that mancer might have going forward in my opinion going forward might be in a gushbond list that uses it as a control creature to help stave off aggro beats while the deck attempts to buy time to combo out with some 1-turn win (tendrils, tinker + time walk or just spells + time walk). In that sort of list you would def want 4 gushes and want to eschew some moxen for more preordains, and lands to support the wild 4-color manabase. The issue I have with such a deck is that I see that whole approach as being somewhat easy to hate out with either.

1. Mana Denial
2. Better pressure (see Mentor)
3. A faster combo deck that really does go all in (see TPS)

I hope this was helpful in understanding my reasoning. I hope it doesn't spark some angry response. Please, I beg you guys. Keep it civil. Keep this as a safe space for debate to further the growth of the community.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #485 on: February 23, 2015, 08:19:53 pm »

I think that the VSL is an opportunity for long-time Vintage elite to sling around the cards they love and have fun playing Vintage.

Really?  If that were true, then wouldn't the VSL have more than 2 "Vintage" players? 

Stephen you need to stop nit-picking everything I say and try to understand my meaning.

By the same token, you really need to stop posting overly dramatic and extremely hyperbolic posts in these threads.

I mean, you entered this thread talking about how "absurd" and "boring" the deck choices are. 

I sometimes think you say what you say to sound interesting or dramatic effect rather than persuading. 

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tribet
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« Reply #486 on: February 23, 2015, 09:07:39 pm »

I'd like to see some shop experts invited to the VSL (Rob Vroman, Nick Detwiler, one or both of the Forino's, Roland Chang).

Such a great idea.

I reckon that, this season, 9th & 10th should get booted out. Next season, invite 1 new Famous player or HoF + 1 Random player for each set of round (total 3 random players).

Random player could be choosen as follow:
- Voted by members of the TMD community (nothing wrong with a bit of self advertizing to promote this awesome platform). So we are looking here at the list of names you listed + many others on these boards.
- Winner of a recent main Vintage event (BOM, Eternal WE,...)
- Best ranked non-VSL player in an online VSL qualifier tourney open to all members of the public (similar setup than the Holiday Festival tourney)

Having a dark dog would spice it up and bring many fresh ideas, opinions, views during the commentaries. It would also be a way to involve the community more, promote the TMD forum more & create some more buzz.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 12:55:09 am by tribet » Logged
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« Reply #487 on: February 23, 2015, 09:12:47 pm »


I think you've played the deck well, including against Steve, where you simply got extremely unlucky never drawing dredgers. The only mistake I noticed was conceding after the mulligan to oblivion: Steve's deck is relatively soft vs dredge and if you had drawn a Bazaar in the first couple of turns, could still have won the game.

It wasn't a mistake, I was consciously quitting. I was over it. It was almost 1am in NYC and I had been on the stream since the beginning and was starving and didn't feel like playing vs Steve and his glacial pace for the 5% chance at winning.

Dave,

If your position is something other that winning matches of Magic, it's not really applicable to a discussion related to proper play.

Also,  another low blow at Steve's peace of play.  Your match ended with 22:07 on your clock and 19:16 on Steve's.  Your dig is not appropriate or accurate.
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« Reply #488 on: February 23, 2015, 09:29:44 pm »

I think the proper response is, 'yeah I didn't think about it, it was just a test game'.

Umm. . . you don't often want to waste that aggressively unless you are facing shops and usually they aren't going to lead with a waste-worthy land if they know you're on a wasteland deck.

This statement is irrelevant to your initial play. The decision to Wasteland or not isn't going to come until your next turn. By then you may have more information. By playing the Bayou you leave yourself the most options for your second turn. You can Wasteland, you can cast Bob and stand up a Heath if there are no Wasteland targets and again protect yourself against Wasteland. You can play the Wasteland and cast Bob. Presuming you have a black source to fetch with your Heath it is absolutely the right play. The only other line that can justify your first turn fetch is if you had gotten a Forest and you wanted to convince me you were playing around Wasteland yourself.

Quote
fetching turn 1 means that if I run out knight on turn 3 I can waste first and have a creature that is out of bolt range.

This doesn't change on the third turn even if you draw no more fetches. You'd have a Heath in your yard and an untapped Wasteland. You can still make KotR a 4/4. If they waste you, your Knight is out of bolt range against this formidable Lightning Bolt / Wasteland Vintage deck you are facing.  You are also missing the forest from the trees, if you are truly thinking about bolt the second turn Bob you play will certainly be eating it. You are assuming either way your Hierarch is alive. Again you show suspect reasoning, and proof you weren't working the game forward.

Quote
There is also a very good argument to be made for immediate deck thinning when you have a hand filled with lands to potentially improve your draws. This deck runs no sensei's top or similar effect so you want to thin as fast as possible usually.

This is statistically irrelevant. The upside of holding up a fetch vs. Strip Mine or Wasteland far outstrips the half a percent of drawing a business spell. Even worse you are so early in the game it's not even clear whether you will want to draw into another land or not. Finally the thinning effect of pre-fetching (in a format like Vintage without 4 Brainstorm) is really lost on a deck like junk without Preordains, Dig, Cruise, Recall and Ponder. If you are running sylvan library than you should definitely value your fetches.

Quote
Versus a blind opponent that MIGHT be on shops you have maybe a point, but again, I usually don't waste their first land drop if it is a tomb, only if it is a shop.

I'm not sure how to address this. If you want to talk to me more about playing junk/human/dudesweats please PM me.

Quote
I can't believe you are passing total judgement on me as a player by watching a minute of my playing.

I didn't assess total judgement, I merely meant to point out that we are all guilty of making errors during play and I feel like you killed these guys who take 4-6 hours out of their night to not only play, but comment all for free, for our entertainment. I don't know how good of a player you are, but I just grabbed your first video from the vintage stream thread and got 20 seconds in and saw sub-optimal play; which is what you tossed at Tom/Dave. I'm sure your a fine player.

No need to derail things further, I'm just thankful for the entertainment the VSL provides during the week for me. I'll hit the gym and kill an hour on the treadmill or bike and the commentary and games make things go by faster watching vintage than just about anything else.
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« Reply #489 on: February 23, 2015, 09:38:14 pm »

I think that the VSL is an opportunity for long-time Vintage elite to sling around the cards they love and have fun playing Vintage.

Really?  If that were true, then wouldn't the VSL have more than 2 "Vintage" players? 


That is actually a really good point and I stand corrected. I think this is something that should change. There should be a higher % of Vintage ringers that can really put guys like Kai and LSV to the test.
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« Reply #490 on: February 23, 2015, 09:48:40 pm »

I think the proper response is, 'yeah I didn't think about it, it was just a test game'.

Umm. . . you don't often want to waste that aggressively unless you are facing shops and usually they aren't going to lead with a waste-worthy land if they know you're on a wasteland deck.

This statement is irrelevant to your initial play. The decision to Wasteland or not isn't going to come until your next turn. By then you may have more information. By playing the Bayou you leave yourself the most options for your second turn. You can Wasteland, you can cast Bob and stand up a Heath if there are no Wasteland targets and again protect yourself against Wasteland. You can play the Wasteland and cast Bob. Presuming you have a black source to fetch with your Heath it is absolutely the right play. The only other line that can justify your first turn fetch is if you had gotten a Forest and you wanted to convince me you were playing around Wasteland yourself.

Quote
fetching turn 1 means that if I run out knight on turn 3 I can waste first and have a creature that is out of bolt range.

This doesn't change on the third turn even if you draw no more fetches. You'd have a Heath in your yard and an untapped Wasteland. You can still make KotR a 4/4. If they waste you, your Knight is out of bolt range against this formidable Lightning Bolt / Wasteland Vintage deck you are facing.  You are also missing the forest from the trees, if you are truly thinking about bolt the second turn Bob you play will certainly be eating it. You are assuming either way your Hierarch is alive. Again you show suspect reasoning, and proof you weren't working the game forward.

Quote
There is also a very good argument to be made for immediate deck thinning when you have a hand filled with lands to potentially improve your draws. This deck runs no sensei's top or similar effect so you want to thin as fast as possible usually.

This is statistically irrelevant. The upside of holding up a fetch vs. Strip Mine or Wasteland far outstrips the half a percent of drawing a business spell. Even worse you are so early in the game it's not even clear whether you will want to draw into another land or not. Finally the thinning effect of pre-fetching (in a format like Vintage without 4 Brainstorm) is really lost on a deck like junk without Preordains, Dig, Cruise, Recall and Ponder. If you are running sylvan library than you should definitely value your fetches.

Quote
Versus a blind opponent that MIGHT be on shops you have maybe a point, but again, I usually don't waste their first land drop if it is a tomb, only if it is a shop.

I'm not sure how to address this. If you want to talk to me more about playing junk/human/dudesweats please PM me.

Quote
I can't believe you are passing total judgement on me as a player by watching a minute of my playing.

I didn't assess total judgement, I merely meant to point out that we are all guilty of making errors during play and I feel like you killed these guys who take 4-6 hours out of their night to not only play, but comment all for free, for our entertainment. I don't know how good of a player you are, but I just grabbed your first video from the vintage stream thread and got 20 seconds in and saw sub-optimal play; which is what you tossed at Tom/Dave. I'm sure your a fine player.

No need to derail things further, I'm just thankful for the entertainment the VSL provides during the week for me. I'll hit the gym and kill an hour on the treadmill or bike and the commentary and games make things go by faster watching vintage than just about anything else.

All fair points. I didn't mean to get into any sort of spat about anything so minor. I tend to automatically try to fill my yard first rather than make a play like the one you suggest simply because I don't run library or brainstorm or preordain or tutors of any kind so the shuffle effect isn't anything I need. Though statistically small I still tend to make the play this way for thinning if my hand already has slightly too many lands (a common occurrence in 24 land.dec) to decrease the odds of turn 2 land. My current iteration of the deck runs 4 dr. shaman and no noble so I shouldn't have color screw situations as often and I can fetch up scrubland to make a mana dork which is really the colors this deck needs early the most.

I also didn't mean to imply that the those particular dredge pilots were outright bad. It's just frustrating to see dredge lose to a matchup that should be very good for it (Delver). It could have had as much to do with Tom playing a sub-optimal build of dredge and some bad beats combined. I just hate it when the blue pilot is let off the hook cause I kinda personally despise blue tempo decks. I do find them pretty boring to watch.

So again, we're cool. Didn't mean to incite. Smile

-Storm
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« Reply #491 on: February 23, 2015, 09:50:28 pm »


I think you've played the deck well, including against Steve, where you simply got extremely unlucky never drawing dredgers. The only mistake I noticed was conceding after the mulligan to oblivion: Steve's deck is relatively soft vs dredge and if you had drawn a Bazaar in the first couple of turns, could still have won the game.

It wasn't a mistake, I was consciously quitting. I was over it. It was almost 1am in NYC and I had been on the stream since the beginning and was starving and didn't feel like playing vs Steve and his glacial pace for the 5% chance at winning.

Dave,

If your position is something other that winning matches of Magic, it's not really applicable to a discussion related to proper play.

Also,  another low blow at Steve's peace of play.  Your match ended with 22:07 on your clock and 19:16 on Steve's.  Your dig is not appropriate or accurate.

Kevin,

My position was winning up until that moment after everything leading up to it. So its not really up to you to tell me whats applicable and what's not. Deciding to quit is not a "mistake", which is what I was inquiring about.

Steve's "peace" of play is and has been a concern to everyone in the league. He is a friend of mine so it's not personal, but he is slow. There was a time he cast a preordain and we sat for so long that I had to ask in the skype chat if my MTGO was lagging and he eventually replied "thinking". No one watching wants to stare at the screen with nothing moving while a guy is thinking 5 minutes for a preordain and as a caster it's even hard to cast Steve's matches, something also echo'd by most of the other casters/players in the league.

You state "another low blow" which would imply it's been brought up before (it has). If it looks like a duck...

Comparing clocks is not the way to decide if it's accurate or appropriate. Imagine the scenario where one player is playing bomberman on MTGO and the other is mana screwed and stuck on 1 land and has not cast anything. The game ends and they both have 10 mins on their clock. Does that mean the guy who had 1 land and didn't cast a spell was not slow because the clocks are the same? 

It also wasn't a dig, I was stating why I was no longer interested in continuing the match.

I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about Steve's play speed so I'm going to leave it at this; this is for entertainment, who likes staring at a screen with nothing happening?

I would like to address the pointlessness of your post though. What looks like an attempt to be Steve's White Knight. He could have posted if he had a problem with it or even sent me a text message. We text often. I rarely post here or any forums because I can't take posts like yours. I was trying to engage in actual knowledgeable discussion and find out what mistakes I made. When the only one pointed out was me deciding to quit the match, I replied with what I was thinking.

I think I'm done here and will go back to not engaging in forums.

Have a nice day.
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« Reply #492 on: February 23, 2015, 09:54:08 pm »


I also didn't mean to imply that the those particular dredge pilots were outright bad. It's just frustrating to see dredge lose to a matchup that should be very good for it (Delver). It could have had as much to do with Tom playing a sub-optimal build of dredge and some bad beats combined. I just hate it when the blue pilot is let off the hook cause I kinda personally despise blue tempo decks. I do find them pretty boring to watch.

So again, we're cool. Didn't mean to incite. Smile

-Storm

Strom,

I'm curious as to why you lumped us both in as bad dredge pilots based on Tom's mistakes (which I have now heard about)? I'm asking to learn not to be defensive. Other than quitting g3 when I mulliganed to 1, I haven't heard of anything I've done.
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« Reply #493 on: February 24, 2015, 12:44:46 am »

Dave,

I didn't realize my response would make you quit the forums.  If I had, I would have been less kurt. I was merely adopting the existing tone of the conversation.

I get that there are legitimate external factors for conceding your third game when you did, but you responded to a comment about play mistakes with a list of extra-game considerations.  Your response of "It wasn't a mistake." (which you've since reiterated) strikes me as problematic.  I feel as though you're defending yourself from the notion that your concession was an *oversight*, which I don't think anyone is accusing you of. I maintain that conceding said game is not optimal play, but your position is clear

Further, and to your point about the purpose of the VSL: people watch for different reasons, no doubt, and your choice to concede game three goes against one of the main reasons I watch.  I want to see how pros such as yourself win games that I would not. The game you conceded was very low percentage for you to win, granted, but I would much rather watch you play that game to your few outs than to blow people out the way Dredge typically does in game ones. That third game held far more interest for me, even after you Mulliganed to one, than game one usually does with Dredge.

Regarding Steve's pace: Your clock example is a fair criticism of relying on clock as the sole indicator, but not so much in the match in question. I get that it's a common point of derision (I've watched 100% of the VSL), but your match - to that point - was played at a totally reasonable pace. If you think games one and two were examples of "glacial" play,  I guess we're never going to agree on appropriate pace for Magic Online. It IS a textbook definition of "personal", though.

Sorry my prior post wasn't thorough enough to convey a valid point, but your notion that I would be acting as White Knight to Steve is comically wrong.  You and I both know Steve well, and I can't think of another member of this community who is less in need of such support.  I do feel like you're trying to add to the discourse in the community, here, but the post I initially responded to was not a good example of said.  (Not that you are alone.)
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« Reply #494 on: February 24, 2015, 08:25:58 am »

No need to derail things further, I'm just thankful for the entertainment the VSL provides during the week for me. I'll hit the gym and kill an hour on the treadmill or bike and the commentary and games make things go by faster watching vintage than just about anything else.

I totally agree with that.

I'm quite surprise how this thread has degenerated lately. I was going to post that I spent like 3 or more hours in sunday watching videos and enjoying them a lot. I agree that looking the videos and having both hands in sight, some plays do not seem the best, but overall there is a very good level of magic, far better than mine. I play MUCH worse when someone is looking at me. So if I was playing on computer and knowing that thousands of people would watch me, I'd play even worse. I agree that see Dave conceding the third match to Steve was a pity, but after knowing it was so late I can understand, and the odds were quite bad.

About decks diversity... well, each player choose what they wanted, there was no restriction. I play bomberman but I cannot expect it to be played, since it's impossible to make it work properly in mtgo. I'm surprised that fastbond-crucible-zuran is played for the same reason (props for ¿Bob? for playing it). Understimate a tournament because there are no MUDs, with just 10 players and after VSL 1 experience... well, surely you can find lots of 10 players tournament without delvers, mud, oath, drains... that's ok.

Suggesting that only Vintage players should play it (or at least more) is imho the opposite that VSL stands for. The idea is to get non-vintage players into vintage, so have lots of non-vintage players into VSL is a perfect idea.

One last thing: Thanks to Randy and the rest of the VSL players. This videos are great and I like them a lot!
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« Reply #495 on: February 24, 2015, 08:45:20 am »

I'm quite surprise how this thread has degenerated lately.

I'm not. Welcome to The Mana Drain, where the two favorite occupations are baseless speculation and complaining about everything.

Here's Vintage Super League, a tournament series put on for entertainment, featuring some of the best players and personalities in the game, that spectators are free to watch (or not) and enjoy as they like. I have heard far more non-Vintage players talk excitedly about Vintage with regard to this series than anything else in recent memory. It features just as many exciting plays, fun strategies, and even glaring errors (that Wednesday-morning planeswalkers can analyze) as a real Vintage tournament. Let's all poop on it for a while.
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« Reply #496 on: February 24, 2015, 09:54:52 am »

I'm quite surprise how this thread has degenerated lately.

I'm not. Welcome to The Mana Drain, where the two favorite occupations are baseless speculation and complaining about everything.

I cannot believe you left out the posting of gifs in your two of favorite occupations... Shame on you Lochinvar81.

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« Reply #497 on: February 24, 2015, 10:08:43 am »

Temporarily locked while this mess is sorted through - Prospero.
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« Reply #498 on: February 24, 2015, 10:59:49 am »

I was trying to engage in actual knowledgeable discussion and find out what mistakes I made. When the only one pointed out was me deciding to quit the match, I replied with what I was thinking.

Hey Dave,

I took a look over your matches to see if I could spot any mistakes.

1) I thought there was a case to be made for you to be more aggressive with your mental misstep in your opening hand against Steve in game 1. I understand that his deck certainly has juicier targets than a preordain, but not many. The traditional magic wisdom is that when you're down on cards, as you were on the mulligan to 4, it's traditionally a bad idea to trade 1 for 1, but Dredge isn't a traditional magic deck and card advantage is sort of a bust when you consider that the deck's engine has inherent card disadvantage. When Steve followed up with the Brainstorm Efro and TomM were also questioning whether you would use the Misstep. I would be curious to know what your thought process was there. You ended up using it the following turn on a Delver of Secrets, but by then Steve had managed to find his own Mental Misstep and also got a token off Young Pyromancer for his trouble. This came up again in Game 2 when you allowed Mystical Tutor to resolve while holding two Mental Missteps. Mystical Tutor is a premium spell in that situation. I think TomM and Efro's commentary around the 35 minute mark was spot on. It sets you back somewhat on the potential draw to 8 and discard/slow dredge plan, and perhaps you felt VERY strongly that Steve's target would be Ancestral and then you could remove the possibility of Ancestral Recall as a topdeck, but I still think countering that Mystical was absolutely the right play.

2) Around the 16:00 mark in your match with Steve you correctly tapped your undiscovered paradise EOT to bring it back, but you neglected to make landfall on your turn to get the Bloodghast into play as TomM noted in the commentary. I can't believe that this is anything other than a mistake. Having the Bloodghast in play seems strictly better than not having him in play. Steve had an active Young Pyromancer so have the maximum number of zombie tokens could have meant the difference between attacking for lethal or coming up just short. Is there something I missed? It's a little difficult to see your graveyard, but it didn't seem like you were short on black creatures to feed to your Ichorid between the Golgari Thug and the Stinkweed Imp. You're also a very good percentage to hit more Ichorid food with your Bazaar dredges.

3) In game 1 with Efro I noticed that you activated Bazaar on your upkeep, but chose not to discard the Dread Return in hand. Again, it's a bit difficult to see exactly what you had in your graveyard and the hand cam seemed to be a little behind where the board state was, but it seemed like that should have been one of the cards discarded in that situation. I realize that Efro's deck was unknown to you at this point and I'm not 100% on the contents of your graveyard, so I'm willing to believe that maybe you had enough therapies and another Dread Return which almost certainly would have won you the game and perhaps you were playing around something ridiculous like a maindeck Ravenous Trap.

4) I was curious to know how aggressively you were mulliganing in those games where you got down to 1 card. Were you keeping any hand with Bazaar or were you looking for Bazaar + Anti-Hate only? It wasn't clear from the hand cam. If you were mulling bazaar hands I think that may have been a mistake. If you were keeping any Bazaar hand and you mulled to 1 twice in two matches that's a very bad beat as it's only a ~7% chance.

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