Treasure Cruise

[MaximumCDawg]

Always be aware of which mainphase you cast your Cruise in.

I won a game recently where my opponent Force of Willed my lategame one-mana Treasure Cruise (precombat main). Rather than Mana Drain their Force, I Mana Drained my own Cruise, passed to postcombat main, and hardcast Blightsteel.

Holy crap, that's some Arcane Denial Your Own Mox level next leveling right there!

Player 1: Delve my treasure cruise, hold priority.
Player 2: Okay.
Player 1: Mana Drain targeting my treasure cruise.
Player 2: Uh... what?  Okay, sure, resolves.
Player 1: Go to second main.  Inkwell Levithan?
Player 2: !!

[xouman]

If they have the counter, then it's 3 for 1 (or 2) for you . 2 cards and UUU (or more) for 8 mana feels poor.

But playing drain after the fow on treasure cruise feels much better! Brilliant move!

[sirgog]

In this game I'd only risked a 2 for 2 if they had a second Force and a blue card (they tapped low or maybe totally out to hardcast their Force).

In other games, however, this line of play is really worth keeping in mind, especially with Dig Through Time. It can lead to you having enough mana to cast a colourless intensive finisher with Force of Will mana up.

[gribdogs]

So how long do we have until Treasure Cruise starts getting DCI-ed?  It's making waves in Modern, Legacy and Vintage now.  Hopefully it can stay legal in Vintage and just get the banhammer in those other two formats that don't interest me as much.   

[KrauserKrauser]

January is the next round of DCI actions.

If Ponder, Thirst and Brainstorm are all too powerful to be allowed as a 4-of, I'm of the opinion that Treasure Cruise needs to be given the same treatment.

As a 1-of it's a great addition to the tool box of the format, as a 4-of it's format warping.

#NoTo5Ancestrals

[Protoaddict]

If it does get restricted in vintage, which I do not think it will and I'll say why after, I think a great many decks would run Dig through time in the other slots since it is similar, sometimes better, and plays against different angles than TC does.

The reason I cannot imagine it getting banned in vintage (MAYBE modern) is because Preordain is not. Not because the cards are comparable, but because there is precedent. Brainstorm and Ponder are both 1 ofs, preordain is very often cantrip 3-6 in those decks and it is in some limited cases better then those other 2 cards, but it is usually not quite up to par with the other cantrips and therefore has managed to skirt the list.

Likewise Treasure Cruise is not better than its restricted counterpart ancestral, is comparable to dig though time in that there are some situations where one or the other is strictly better, and has a built in limitation. I think it is going to take more than one tourney to prove this card is to strong to stick around.

[KrauserKrauser]

There are common situations where Treasure Cruise is better than Ancestral as it cannot be Mental Misstepped nor Misdirected even though it can only go at Sorcery Speed.  Plus you can use Delve to go through spheres and Lodestone, as rare an occurrence as that might be.

Treasure Cruise has enabled an archetype that has warped the format, just like Thirst did years ago.

Thirst for Knowledge was banned after it took Control Slaver to oppressive heights in the format.  With 4 TC Delver in the Top 8 of Eternal Weekend and significant numbers just beneath that mark, it certainly had as much success as we saw during the 4 Thirst days.

Yes, Oath and Shops (on the play) have some game against it, but it warps the format around the deck and its 5 Ancestrals.

As for Dig Through Time, I'm against it's restriction as it is harder to cast Dig Through Time with protection as UUU or at minimum UUR can be a tall ask at times.  I would put Dig Through Time at the Fact or Fiction power level, with Treasure Cruise in the Thirst level.

So, if you don't want to restrict Treasure Cruise, fine, let's unrestrict Thirst for Knowledge and give the big mana decks a fighting chance again.

[Chubby Rain]

Cards should not be restricted based on their power levels but on the roles they play in format warping decks. If you look at the top 8, we have 4 URx Delver lists, 2 anti-Delver Oath lists, and 2 "anti-Delver" MUD lists. Big blue and Combo decks were not present nor was Dredge. That seems pretty format warping.

The problems with Treasure Cruise are:
A) Against other Blue-based control decks, it is no longer possible to "out-control" Delver. They will simply draw more cards than you. Delver is no-longer just a tempo deck but now has a degree of inevitability, which is not something that a tempo deck should have.
B) Against Workshops decks, Treasure Cruise is card drawing that circumvents Chalice and Sphere effects. As opposed to Gush, which set the Delver deck back a couple of land drops, Treasure Cruise allows them to continue to make land drops and eventually escape the lock. Workshops used to be a natural foil against decks like this but now that is not necessarily the case.
C) The mirror match is incredibly unsatisfying. When a deck is capable of generating so much card advantage so quickly (you can easily draw 7-9 cards in a turn during the late game), the mirror often becomes who can resolve a Treasure Cruise first.

You can make an argument for Dig being the better card all you want, but Delver is clearly the better deck right now. IMO, the format has a couple of months to adapt but I strongly feel that Cruise should be restricted based on current testing and results.

[Protoaddict]

I fully suspect that even without TC, delver would have been at the top tables as it has been for months if not years now. Delver is the problem in that list if you really want to point fingers, followed closely by Pyromancer.

Gush, when unbanned, was warping and we saw a huge number of gush deck come out, in that it is its own archetype now and no one wants that to go back on the restricted list. I would argue that its to early to tell but gush may be just as powerful, just in different ways.

[Chubby Rain]

I fully suspect that even without TC, delver would have been at the top tables as it has been for months if not years now. Delver is the problem in that list if you really want to point fingers, followed closely by Pyromancer.

Gush, when unbanned, was warping and we saw a huge number of gush deck come out, in that it is its own archetype now and no one wants that to go back on the restricted list. I would argue that its to early to tell but gush may be just as powerful, just in different ways.

You are entitled to your opinion naturally, but that has not been my experience with and against the deck. Delver is beatable - misstep, swords, bolt, blocking with clique, Jace bounce/fateseal, EE, etc. Young Pyromancer is much harder to deal with but there are many answers and ways of containing him (swords, bolt, fire/ice, EE, pyroclasm, supreme verdict, slice and dice, etc.). The problem now is that you cannot answer these cards 1 for 1, the Delver deck will simply outdraw you and make another threat until you run out of answers. While I think Delver would have had some number of people in the top 8, I do not think it would have been half the top 8 and completely pushed out other archetypes like combo and control.

[Commandant]

Cards should not be restricted based on their power levels but on the roles they play in format warping decks. If you look at the top 8, we have 4 URx Delver lists, 2 anti-Delver Oath lists, and 2 "anti-Delver" MUD lists. Big blue and Combo decks were not present nor was Dredge. That seems pretty format warping.

The problems with Treasure Cruise are:
A) Against other Blue-based control decks, it is no longer possible to "out-control" Delver. They will simply draw more cards than you. Delver is no-longer just a tempo deck but now has a degree of inevitability, which is not something that a tempo deck should have.
B) Against Workshops decks, Treasure Cruise is card drawing that circumvents Chalice and Sphere effects. As opposed to Gush, which set the Delver deck back a couple of land drops, Treasure Cruise allows them to continue to make land drops and eventually escape the lock. Workshops used to be a natural foil against decks like this but now that is not necessarily the case.
C) The mirror match is incredibly unsatisfying. When a deck is capable of generating so much card advantage so quickly (you can easily draw 7-9 cards in a turn during the late game), the mirror often becomes who can resolve a Treasure Cruise first.

You can make an argument for Dig being the better card all you want, but Delver is clearly the better deck right now. IMO, the format has a couple of months to adapt but I strongly feel that Cruise should be restricted based on current testing and results.

There were plenty of other archetypes at the top tables all day long.

Who knew a bunch of efficent tempo decks would beat beyond greedy control lists.

Delver has been top tier far before Cruise. I'm of the opinion until this point that it hasn't been respected primarily because the majorty of lime light came from Smennen. It essentially made finals last year as well without Cruise. Time will tell but this is clearly another fine example of Vintage players unwillingness to adapt and speed at which they do.

You could also try and play an archetype that has some game against Delver, you know something that isn't MUC or non Angel UW.

[Commandant]

You are entitled to your opinion naturally, but that has not been my experience with and against the deck. Delver is beatable - misstep, swords, bolt, blocking with clique, Jace bounce/fateseal, EE, etc. Young Pyromancer is much harder to deal with but there are many answers and ways of containing him (swords, bolt, fire/ice, EE, pyroclasm, supreme verdict, slice and dice, etc.). The problem now is that you cannot answer these cards 1 for 1, the Delver deck will simply outdraw you and make another threat until you run out of answers. While I think Delver would have had some number of people in the top 8, I do not think it would have been half the top 8 and completely pushed out other archetypes like combo and control.

Its worth nothing that 1 for 1ing Workshops hasn't been a viable option for years unless it gets you to a proactive card like Trygon Predator, yet Workshops remains untouched.

[Phele]

You are entitled to your opinion naturally, but that has not been my experience with and against the deck. Delver is beatable - misstep, swords, bolt, blocking with clique, Jace bounce/fateseal, EE, etc. Young Pyromancer is much harder to deal with but there are many answers and ways of containing him (swords, bolt, fire/ice, EE, pyroclasm, supreme verdict, slice and dice, etc.). The problem now is that you cannot answer these cards 1 for 1, the Delver deck will simply outdraw you and make another threat until you run out of answers. While I think Delver would have had some number of people in the top 8, I do not think it would have been half the top 8 and completely pushed out other archetypes like combo and control.

Its worth nothing that 1 for 1ing Workshops hasn't been a viable option for years unless it gets you to a proactive card like Trygon Predator, yet Workshops remains untouched.

But didn't plenty decks do pretty fine by just playing Chewers and Bolts out of the board against Shops?

[vaughnbros]

You are entitled to your opinion naturally, but that has not been my experience with and against the deck. Delver is beatable - misstep, swords, bolt, blocking with clique, Jace bounce/fateseal, EE, etc. Young Pyromancer is much harder to deal with but there are many answers and ways of containing him (swords, bolt, fire/ice, EE, pyroclasm, supreme verdict, slice and dice, etc.). The problem now is that you cannot answer these cards 1 for 1, the Delver deck will simply outdraw you and make another threat until you run out of answers. While I think Delver would have had some number of people in the top 8, I do not think it would have been half the top 8 and completely pushed out other archetypes like combo and control.

Its worth nothing that 1 for 1ing Workshops hasn't been a viable option for years unless it gets you to a proactive card like Trygon Predator, yet Workshops remains untouched.

Yeh this is just flat out wrong.  In fact that's most decks strategy for beating workshops.

[vaughnbros]

So, if you don't want to restrict Treasure Cruise, fine, let's unrestrict Thirst for Knowledge and give the big mana decks a fighting chance again.

Agreed.  Let's unrestrict Thirst and Gifts as well.  Neither of those cards are enabling turn 1 or 2 combos, so other decks have time to interact.  We have unrestricted Jace, Dack Fayden, Dark Confidant, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, FoF...  Just let people choose their draw engine.

[Commandant]

All of which ran Dark Confidant and Time Vault - Key. There's a big difference in logic there between 1 for 1ing without a strategic (and efficient) end point or an early game tempo engine and doing so with the aforementioned. Majority of the control and combo lists I saw at the event were supremely greedy including the one I played - Delver simply preys on this. I think calls for restriction already are rather ludicrous.

[Protoaddict]

The banned and restricted lists have always been inconsistent when it comes to draw engines and it is mostly because of WOTC playing it safe. When Gush and FOF came off the lists the whole vintage community gasped because they were worried about these bogey men coming off the lists and murdering the format, and it never happened. If anything it opened it up.

If Treasure cruise is really that strong then I see no reason not to give the meta a chance to shift to accommodate. There is no reason that Leyline of the Void should suddenly not see play and if the format really does become that dependent on the yard then why couldn't Hemline combo come back? Where the hell are the mana drain players hardcasting Blightsteels off a countered TC? One event right after release does not indicate a complete paradigm shift, you need at least one major event after that one for people to actually react to the meta shift. We literally have not had one event since the "problem" was actually identified.

And if the problem is Delver, I am still not sure that TC is the culprit. Delver itself is one if not the most undercosted creatures in the history of magic. I know that sounds silly in a format like vintage but it has literally been a player if not a dominant one in every single format it has been available in with the exception of EDH. It does everything blue decks want it to do and does nothing that it should actually do for its cost and in its color. I am not saying restrict delver mind you, but I am saying I would sooner want to see that go than Treasure cruise after 1 event.

[Hrishi]

So, if you don't want to restrict Treasure Cruise, fine, let's unrestrict Thirst for Knowledge and give the big mana decks a fighting chance again.

This would be fun! I'd love to have 4 Thirsts again.

[KrauserKrauser]

Yes, it's so much better to have a format that is warped around a single card enabling a dominant archetype.  The printing of Treasure Cruise has caused the format to warp around the deck that can best enable and utilize the card, Delver.

Yes, Delver was a contender before the printing, I don't see anyone calling for the destruction of the archetype, but the addition of multiple Treasure Cruise removes the limitations normally inherent to a tempo strategy, a lack of inevitability.

Saying "the format will adjust" may be true, and we have a few months to wait and see.  I'm fairly convinced that it merits restriction, but will continue testing things out just in case WotC disagrees.

[JarofFortune]

The Format has warped around Delver, in the way that a format will warp around any top tier deck(shops, Oath). The format is adapting and will be fine. Unrestricting a lot of other draw spells would be a nice way to create more deck list choices, which i Wizards likes(Gifts, thirst, necro, brainstorm etc.). Delver is very beatable, and was able to "Outcontrol the control decks" even before Cruise.

[Protoaddict]

Yes, it's so much better to have a format that is warped around a single card enabling a dominant archetype.  The printing of Treasure Cruise has caused the format to warp around the deck that can best enable and utilize the card, Delver.

Yes, Delver was a contender before the printing, I don't see anyone calling for the destruction of the archetype, but the addition of multiple Treasure Cruise removes the limitations normally inherent to a tempo strategy, a lack of inevitability.

Saying "the format will adjust" may be true, and we have a few months to wait and see.  I'm fairly convinced that it merits restriction, but will continue testing things out just in case WotC disagrees.

I just do not think we have enough information to say TC is too good yet. It's one event.

In other formats everyone was screaming to get rid of Jeskai Acendency because of that wacky combo it does, but at the last major standard event the deck could not even penetrate top 8. If TC should be banned it is not because of this one event, it should be because it is dominant at multiple events even after the format tries to adapt.

[Chubby Rain]

There were plenty of other archetypes at the top tables all day long.

I'm aware of that as I was at the top tables all day long...I finished in 31st place after losing 2 of the last 3 rounds. The Vintage field was incredibly diverse as it normally is. The thing is URx delver was not even close to half of the field and represented half of the top 8. It dramatically outperformed the field (unfortunately, this is anecdotal as I don't have the metagame breakdown) as did decks which have favorable match ups against Delver, like Oath. That is by definition, format warping.

Who knew a bunch of efficent tempo decks would beat beyond greedy control lists.

Delver has always had a good matchup against greedy control lists. It was 50-50 against UW control decks and worse against UW Stoneblade and Blue Angel decks. Now those match-ups are virtually unwinnable. You seem to have missed the part where I said that Delver is no longer just an efficient tempo deck - it is now a very effective control deck.

Delver has been top tier far before Cruise. I'm of the opinion until this point that it hasn't been respected primarily because the majorty of lime light came from Smennen. It essentially made finals last year as well without Cruise. Time will tell but this is clearly another fine example of Vintage players unwillingness to adapt and speed at which they do.

There is a difference between being top tier and being format warping. I have played a lot of Vintage both online where the deck is incredibly prevalent (it's a budget deck for the format) and in the NE metagame where the presence of Shops and Oath kept it in check for a while. I assure you I have not been underestimating the deck. Time will tell on the second part...

You could also try and play an archetype that has some game against Delver, you know something that isn't MUC or non Angel UW.

Thank you for the sarcastic ad-hominem. I did not play either MUC or UW, as I consider these decks unplayable right now and am willing to play "you know something that isn't MUC or non Angel UW". I played an Esper Bomberman-Human storm hybrid going 2-1 against Delver, including a rather intricate match against Smmenen which I pulled out in 3 close games (well aside for a quick Notion Thief + Timetwister with Flusterstorm backup in game 1). The deck was designed to have a good match up against Delver.

[Chubby Rain]

Its worth nothing that 1 for 1ing Workshops hasn't been a viable option for years unless it gets you to a proactive card like Trygon Predator, yet Workshops remains untouched.

That is simply false. Swords, Disenchant, Lightning Bolt, Ingot Chewer, Mana Drain, Steel Sabotage, etc are all common sideboard and main deck cards that are almost always 1 for 1's. The whole idea behind 1 for 1 ing the opponent is that such an exchange favors the player that draws more cards, which is typically not the Shops player... At some point you need a card like Trygon, Jace, Dark Confidant, etc to put you ahead on cards but this strategy is definitely a viable option against shops.

[enderfall]

To me, Delver (with the help of TC), has created a new "Pillar" of Vintage: Tempo-Control. It is fast, resilient, and difficult to actively hate out without skewing towards decks that specifically prey upon it such as Oath and to a lesser extent Workshop. Even the Workshop match-up isn't that difficult for Delver, though. Resolve Dack and the game is pretty much over. No easy task, mind you, but a Turn 1 Delver on the play is also brutally effective against today's shop lists which don't have answers such as Trike and Duplicant. Their only hope is to stick a Revoker and hope to protect it with Chalice on 1 and not get Fire'd out. Maybe with the prevalence of Oath, Workshop adapts, but Oath is typically strong against Workshop as well.

I've had modest success against Delver decks on MTGO with Grixis Control, but it is no easy task, even with SB Slice and Dice. Tempo-Control is not like anything we've seen before, and even without TC, it's still a great deck... it just isn't as OP were one player gets to play 5 Ancestral Recall's. Pure "Control" decks can't afford to run 4 TC because they can't afford to run the number of cantrips to support them. The reason they can't run those cantrips is because the threats that they possess are no where near as efficient as Delver and Pyromancer backed up by Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm (or Spell Pierce), FoW, and maindeck Pyroblasts.

I hate the thought that the format can't adapt, but the online metagame has already been fleshed out, and Delver is simply the best deck out there.... Vintage Champs seemingly backs that case up. I'd love to see some innovation come out of this, but I just go back to the tempo-control aspect of Delver and feel like it simply invalidates so many strategies. Delver is the best Control deck out there, as I see it.

[MaximumCDawg]

You would think that people would just adapt by running Oath.  It's a legitimate sideboard strategy against Shops already, and if Delver is really the boogeyman that it is, why wouldn't we see Oath lists rise up and chomp them back out the metagame?

[Chubby Rain]

I hate the thought that the format can't adapt, but the online metagame has already been fleshed out, and Delver is simply the best deck out there.... Vintage Champs seemingly backs that case up. I'd love to see some innovation come out of this, but I just go back to the tempo-control aspect of Delver and feel like it simply invalidates so many strategies. Delver is the best Control deck out there, as I see it.

Well said. Delver is both the best control deck and the best tempo deck, currently. In my opinion, this is not healthy for the Vintage format and makes if very difficult to combat Delver effectively.

You would think that people would just adapt by running Oath.  It's a legitimate sideboard strategy against Shops already, and if Delver is really the boogeyman that it is, why wouldn't we see Oath lists rise up and chomp them back out the metagame?

Oath is good against Delver but in testing not overwhelmingly so. The deck is very consistent and just sees so many cards - I think Delver lists would simply adapt to an Oath heavy metagame by incorporating more Grafdigger's Cages and Nature's Claims. That said I don't look forward to a metagame consisting primarily of Oath and Delver.

[enderfall]

You would think that people would just adapt by running Oath.  It's a legitimate sideboard strategy against Shops already, and if Delver is really the boogeyman that it is, why wouldn't we see Oath lists rise up and chomp them back out the metagame?

I think Delver players feel Cage is enough hate to fight off Oath. That should change in the near term now that Oath won Champs. I think Delver could start playing more enchantment hate other than Nature's Claim (i.e. not 1 CMC to be hit by Missteps). Heck, even at 1 CMC, they can run Annul to hit both Oath AND Workshops.

Edit: Also, forgot that most UR Delver lists already splash green for Ancient Grudge and could also adopt Trygon as well to fight both of their "natural predators".

[JarofFortune]

You would think that people would just adapt by running Oath.  It's a legitimate sideboard strategy against Shops already, and if Delver is really the boogeyman that it is, why wouldn't we see Oath lists rise up and chomp them back out the metagame?

I doubt it would take long for people to just switch to Rug almost unabimously, which has a very good Oath mu when it has enough hate and is built right.

I hate the thought that the format can't adapt, but the online metagame has already been fleshed out, and Delver is simply the best deck out there.... Vintage Champs seemingly backs that case up. I'd love to see some innovation come out of this, but I just go back to the tempo-control aspect of Delver and feel like it simply invalidates so many strategies. Delver is the best Control deck out there, as I see it.

Delver already was among the best control decks out there. Treasure Cruise isn't what made it into that. Why cruise did do was make Delver more publicly visible, so everyone jumped on it. None of the matchups described in the thread are any different than what they were before cruise.  

I just do not think we have enough information to say TC is too good yet. It's one event.

In other formats everyone was screaming to get rid of Jeskai Acendency because of that wacky combo it does, but at the last major standard event the deck could not even penetrate top 8. If TC should be banned it is not because of this one event, it should be because it is dominant at multiple events even after the format tries to adapt.

There we go. Delver is little better than it already was. People are only now complaining because more people are playing the deck.

You would think that people would just adapt by running Oath.  It's a legitimate sideboard strategy against Shops already, and if Delver is really the boogeyman that it is, why wouldn't we see Oath lists rise up and chomp them back out the metagame?

I think Delver players feel Cage is enough hate to fight off Oath. That should change in the near term now that Oath won Champs. I think Delver could start playing more enchantment hate other than Nature's Claim (i.e. not 1 CMC to be hit by Missteps). Heck, even at 1 CMC, they can run Annul to hit both Oath AND Workshops.

This just proves my point. A lot of players picked up the deck because of treasure cruise hype and didn't test the Oath matchup extensively.  Nature's claim, btw, is ebough if you run 3-4 in addition to cage and have a good enough counter suite maindeck.


As for the earlier comments about treasure cruise giving the deck inevitability, the deck already had it. Low mana count, full cantrips, gush, Dack. These pro restriction reactions are completely overblown.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Horray, it's the old "this card is unplayable – restrict it!" reflex again! How I missed you.
It was so funny to watch the same thing going on with jace. Where's jace, by the way?

Rest assured, people will figure out how to hate on UR delvers, Treasure Cruise, etc. But I think you have to accept it as a new force by now. (Even if treasure cruise would be restricted: 1 cruise, 1 dig, 2 other slots. No big deal.)

The only constructive idea here was to unrestrict other draw engines. It doesn't make "blue" better, it just lets people choose what to run. Dark confidant on the other hand... he might suffer, as he was on the decline even before KTK. He has always been "the best bad draw engine".

[enderfall]

Rest assured, people will figure out how to hate on UR delvers, Treasure Cruise, etc. But I think you have to accept it as a new force by now. (Even if treasure cruise would be restricted: 1 cruise, 1 dig, 2 other slots. No big deal.)

So, what is the big secret to beating it then? How do you "figure out a way" to beat the deck that has the best draw engine the most efficient threats, and an endless supply of answers?