Magic Online Power Nine Owners

[The Atog Lord]

Wizards does not control the secondary market.

Perhaps not directly. However, they do still at least indirectly control it. Excluding Wasteland from Vintage Masters, for example, kept that card's price much higher than it otherwise would have been.

[Coopes]

Wizards does not control the secondary market.

Perhaps not directly. However, they do still at least indirectly control it. Excluding Wasteland from Vintage Masters, for example, kept that card's price much higher than it otherwise would have been.

They also chose what cards to give away for the 15qps each month, the last few choices have been...less than ideal. Wizards definitely keeps their hand in the cookie jar here :p

[Chubby Rain]

It's not a conspiracy. It's just simple supply and demand.

... and simple scarcity on digital products. Great oxymoron by the way!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT7VDPrQwIc

It's not an oxymoron - just the basics of economics.

This whole thread is about "Digital P9 owners" so I'm just warning wanabe MTGO Vintage players. The first cards they will probably look at are indeed P9, Bazaar, Shop... thinking that $400bucks may actually be fair and that now, they have no more excuse not to make the transition to digital Vintage.

My mates already owned the P9, Waste, Dual, FOW... and I still managed to forked in $200 in just 10 days to get basic staples to complete Shop & Standstill.

Yes, the thread is entitled "Digital P9 owners". If we are to take that literally, then you shouldn't be replying unless you own digital Power.  

You make a good point that several other Vintage staples are expensive - I don't believe anyone is trying to deny that. Earlier in the thread I posted links and prices of decks from the Top 8 of Daily Events which included cards like Misdirection, Wasteland, Griselbrand, etc. The point everyone else is trying to make is that FoW, Duals, and Power are likely the cheapest they are going to be as supply is relatively high right now and demand is low. If you are going to obtain those cards, now is the time to do it. The fact that other cards in certain decks are expensive doesn't change that.

...don't let yourself fooled by price of P9 on MODO. It is very misleading and they'll burn you elsewhere as they shift the digital scarcity on other cards. Legacy staples on MODO are basically your new P9 (FOW $30, Scalding Tarn $35, Wasteland $100,...) ...

So think twice before getting lured by the $4 digital Bazaar of Baghdad or $7 Mishra's Workshop. I think it is just a bait to trap Vintage players into MODO!

You are using loaded language here, suggesting that WotC is manipulating prices in some sort of nefarious way to sucker people into Magic Online. I know you don't think MTGO is worth it, but you might be deterring someone who might actually really enjoy Vintage online. It's one thing to make a valid point, another thing to inject your personal bias.

[The Atog Lord]

I just lost a match where my connection went down. When it came back, I had been un-sideboarded for game 2. There's a good chance that cost me the match. Now I need to put in for reimbursement, but the reimbursement web page appears to be down. Just a quick example of MODO that I'm currently experiencing.

[tribet]

I played against a deck running Blind Obedience with the key word "Extort". I couldn't work out how to find out what "Extort" was actually doing. How to find reminder text on such obscur abilities on MODO?

It's not a conspiracy. It's just simple supply and demand.

... and simple scarcity on digital products. Great oxymoron by the way!

It's not an oxymoron - just the basics of economics.

Digital scarcity is an oxymoron. Digital abundance is a tautology.

[Chubby Rain]

Wizards does not control the secondary market.

Perhaps not directly. However, they do still at least indirectly control it. Excluding Wasteland from Vintage Masters, for example, kept that card's price much higher than it otherwise would have been.

They also chose what cards to give away for the 15qps each month, the last few choices have been...less than ideal. Wizards definitely keeps their hand in the cookie jar here :p

Influence is different from control in the economic sense. If WotC was setting the actual prices of the cards, I would agree with you. Instead, it is market forces that dictate the prices of cards. WotC influences the secondary market through their decisions but does not directly benefit from the prices of individual cards outside of the draw that chase cards create for an individual set. I am challenging the assertion that WotC is manipulating the market for certain Vintage cards to their benefit. It's simply not true. Wasteland is expensive because Tempest drafts did not fire (an outcome that hurt Wizards). Are less people playing Vintage and Legacy online because of the cost of Wasteland? Yes. Is this taking revenue away from Wizards? Yes. There is no nefarious plot here...

[The Atog Lord]

And I just got my entry back for the event where MODO malfunctioned. Including that here in the interest of full disclosure.

[Chubby Rain]

Digital scarcity is an oxymoron. Digital abundance is a tautology.

Digital refers to a medium. Scarcity and abundance are ends of an arbitrary spectrum. That you consider it an oxymoron has more to do with your ideals and beliefs than it does with the actual meanings of the words. In any case I really don't want to begin an argument about semantics...

[diophan]

I played against a deck running Blind Obedience with the key word "Extort". I couldn't work out how to find out what "Extort" was actually doing. How to find reminder text on such obscur abilities on MODO?

It's not a conspiracy. It's just simple supply and demand.

... and simple scarcity on digital products. Great oxymoron by the way!

It's not an oxymoron - just the basics of economics.

Digital scarcity is an oxymoron. Digital abundance is a tautology.

Zoom in on the card (default is to click the middle mouse button).

[Ahab1248]

Wizards does not control the secondary market.

Perhaps not directly. However, they do still at least indirectly control it. Excluding Wasteland from Vintage Masters, for example, kept that card's price much higher than it otherwise would have been.

I obviously can't disagree as  WoTC has absolute control on what it includes in its sets in both the digital and paper settings. The exclusion of Wasteland had me convinced that the mystery GPs were going to be GP Legacy Masters. By excluding non-reserve list staples from Vintage Masters they seemed to be setting up a paper Legacy Masters.

On the actual topic, I am still satisfied with buying into MTGO. I have purchased two Black Lotuses this year, a digital one and a paper one. The digital one sees play most nights when I am not traveling for work. The paper one looks pretty and hasn't been played with once. (Seems silly to sleeve up real power in proxy events).  While I am not dissatisfied with either purchase, I will say I have gotten significantly more value from the unknown length lease on the digital Lotus than true ownership I have in my pretty piece of cardboard.

[Smmenen]

Wizards does not control the secondary market.

Perhaps not directly. However, they do still at least indirectly control it. Excluding Wasteland from Vintage Masters, for example, kept that card's price much higher than it otherwise would have been.

I obviously can't disagree as  WoTC has absolute control on what it includes in its sets in both the digital and paper settings. The exclusion of Wasteland had me convinced that the mystery GPs were going to be GP Legacy Masters. By excluding non-reserve list staples from Vintage Masters they seemed to be setting up a paper Legacy Masters.

On the actual topic, I am still satisfied with buying into MTGO. I have purchased two Black Lotuses this year, a digital one and a paper one. The digital one sees play most nights when I am not traveling for work. The paper one looks pretty and hasn't been played with once. (Seems silly to sleeve up real power in proxy events).  While I am not dissatisfied with either purchase, I will say I have gotten significantly more value from the unknown length lease on the digital Lotus than true ownership I have in my pretty piece of cardboard.

I have the same experience.  In fact, I don't even play with my Beta Lotus in real tournaments.  I use proxies because I want to be able to enjoy my Beta Lotus for years to come.  

The only times I'm going to use my real power is in Old School Magic events and at Sanctioned events like Vintage Champs. 

I increasingly dislike paper magic, sad to say.  The time shuffling, etc, is annoying.  The rules ambiguities, etc.  

I like the community, but even then, I prefer to play in my own space at home than travel to tournaments.  

I hope we get some sweet Vintage leagues going.  The VSL was very fun to play.  

[rickster]

Exactly correct, don't let yourself fooled by price of P9 on MODO. It is very misleading and they'll burn you elsewhere as they shift the digital scarcity on other cards. Legacy staples on MODO are basically your new P9 (FOW $30, Scalding Tarn $35, Wasteland $100,...)

Also, any staples from Masques & Mirage blocks are currently a big problem:

- LED $30

The Mirage LED might be $30, but the vintage masters one is only $10.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Vintage+Masters/Lions+Eye+Diamond#online

This whole thread is about "Digital P9 owners" so I'm just warning wanabe MTGO Vintage players.

It is helpful for people who are careless with their money. But there are websites that show you the price of entire decks. And people can easily find out the price of all the cards in the deck they want to buy.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/vintage#online

And if you use a 3rd party website to buy all your cards at once, they'll give you an itemized breakdown of all the cards you want to buy.

[enderfall]

I played against a deck running Blind Obedience with the key word "Extort". I couldn't work out how to find out what "Extort" was actually doing. How to find reminder text on such obscur abilities on MODO?

Zoom in on the card (default is to click the middle mouse button).

Alternatively, you can just hover over the card and (depending on your settings) a reminder box appears for a few seconds.

[thecrav]

Wizards does not control the secondary market.

They actually do because they can reprint anything, anytimes, in any sets. Pretending they are not aware of it or that they are not trying to influence it is naive. They do this all the time for Modern staples and online the "reserve" list doesn't seem to apply anyways. If they don't do it straight away it is because they want to leave some doors open for "special juicy products" such as From the Vault which sell very well as they always make sure to trickle in some high demand products...

In the past, the MOCS promos have tended to be one of the top 5 most expensive cards at that time which has helped a lot. Unfortunately, they seem to have moved away from this more recently.

[enderfall]

Wizards does not control the secondary market.

They actually do because they can reprint anything, anytimes, in any sets. Pretending they are not aware of it or that they are not trying to influence it is naive. They do this all the time for Modern staples and online the "reserve" list doesn't seem to apply anyways. If they don't do it straight away it is because they want to leave some doors open for "special juicy products" such as From the Vault which sell very well as they always make sure to trickle in some high demand products...

In the past, the MOCS promos have tended to be one of the top 5 most expensive cards at that time which has helped a lot. Unfortunately, they seem to have moved away from this more recently.

Not sure where this theory came from. If you look at the complete list of MOCS promos there have been A LOT of duds in the past. Cryptborn Horror, Ratchet Bomb, Mind's Eye, Day of Judgment, Black Sun's Zenith, Mirran Crusader, Mind Control, Doran the Seige Tower, Dungrove Elder, Emeria Angel, Exalted Angel, Gravecraweler, Hermit Druid, Jace Beleren, Land Tax, Lotus Cobra, Natural Order, Pyrokenesis, Bribery, Regrowth, Sinkhole, Sol Ring, Supreme Verdict, Tempered Steel, Thawing Glaciers, Voidslime, Yawgmoth's Will... All of these have been MOCS promos in the last 5 years. None of the above cards were worth more than a couple tix at the time they were promo'ed... many are nearly worthless.

We've been spoiled over the last 18 months or so, which I believe has been premarily due to prepping for Vintage and getting more things like Duals, Forces, and more into the system. They also tend to leave the "big" ones for months without major set releases... Set release months (i.e. October, Feburary, May, July ) are usually terrible because they know people will play MTGO anyway to draft the new set... they don't need to entice people to play with an amazing promo.

[thecrav]

Wizards does not control the secondary market.

They actually do because they can reprint anything, anytimes, in any sets. Pretending they are not aware of it or that they are not trying to influence it is naive. They do this all the time for Modern staples and online the "reserve" list doesn't seem to apply anyways. If they don't do it straight away it is because they want to leave some doors open for "special juicy products" such as From the Vault which sell very well as they always make sure to trickle in some high demand products...

In the past, the MOCS promos have tended to be one of the top 5 most expensive cards at that time which has helped a lot. Unfortunately, they seem to have moved away from this more recently.

Not sure where this theory came from.

...

We've been spoiled over the last 18 months or so, which I believe has been premarily due to prepping for Vintage and getting more things like Duals, Forces, and more into the system. They also tend to leave the "big" ones for months without major set releases... Set release months (i.e. October, Feburary, May, July ) are usually terrible because they know people will play MTGO anyway to draft the new set... they don't need to entice people to play with an amazing promo.

It came from the last 18 months, which is about how long I've been playing MTGO. I don't have the extensive knowledge of previous promos to know beyond the handful of big ones they've had. I apologize for being incorrect.

[jcb193]

Just worth mentioning, I thought we reached the market bottom a few months ago, but now seems to be a really, really good time to get into MTGO (if you think the format has legs and they keep reprints under control). You can build decks for as low as $300 (dredge), and most of the top tier decks are $600-$900.  Last summer, it was $800-$1400 respectively.  Power is almost half of what it was last fall....

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/vintage#online

I personally love MTGO except for one thing.  The fact that you have to buy every single card you ever want to play with, which is super annoying and gets pretty expensive, because there is always some stupid singleton or sideboard card that will run you $40.  I really wish there was a way to rent cards, or proxy a few cards just for a week. I guess you can do that by buying a card and hoping to resell it, but you'll lose some margin, and it's an annoyance.  Paying $50 to get a griselbrand just to give Oath a shot, sucks. 

[thecrav]

I personally love MTGO except for one thing.  The fact that you have to buy every single card you ever want to play with, which is super annoying and gets pretty expensive, because there is always some stupid singleton or sideboard card that will run you $40.  I really wish there was a way to rent cards, or proxy a few cards just for a week. I guess you can do that by buying a card and hoping to resell it, but you'll lose some margin, and it's an annoyance.  Paying $50 to get a griselbrand just to give Oath a shot, sucks. 

This is greatly exacerbated by eternal-playable cards in supplemental products. MTGO Traders currently lists Containment Priest higher than 4/5 moxen D:

[Hrishi]

Yeah, this is why I don't even own Toxic Deluges on MODO even though I'd really love to have a copy or two

[jcb193]

I personally love MTGO except for one thing.  The fact that you have to buy every single card you ever want to play with, which is super annoying and gets pretty expensive, because there is always some stupid singleton or sideboard card that will run you $40.  I really wish there was a way to rent cards, or proxy a few cards just for a week. I guess you can do that by buying a card and hoping to resell it, but you'll lose some margin, and it's an annoyance.  Paying $50 to get a griselbrand just to give Oath a shot, sucks.  

This is greatly exacerbated by eternal-playable cards in supplemental products. MTGO Traders currently lists Containment Priest higher than 4/5 moxen D:

I think that's one of the biggest barriers to getting people to cross over to MTGO (because once you do, it's great, aside from having to maintain two magic collections).  However, the biggest difference is that in paper magic, most of the pricey cards are format staples and make up almost every deck.  In MTGO, the expensive cards are super random cards.  And you can't just proxy a few random cards.

$40 Mox, awesome!!!
$40 batterskull or hurkyls....hmm, maybe I can try a different card.  

[birds of paradise]

Hopefully we can see more stax/gifts the upcoming weeks. I'd love to see something like the B/R bazaar stax.  (preferable something with at least smokestack and welders)

[TakeYourTime]

Has anyone experienced a high amount of angry people on MTGO? Seems like the good sportsmanship of the paper vintage community has not transferred to MTGO whatsoever.

[Chubby Rain]

Has anyone experienced a high amount of angry people on MTGO? Seems like the good sportsmanship of the paper vintage community has not transferred to MTGO whatsoever.

Yes, on both sides. I recognize that I tend to get more tilted/salty playing on MODO than in paper. I chalk that up to the fact that the human element is diminished and the program itself tends to get me frustrated at time. Btw, congrats on your recent run of success in the dailies, Allan!

[diophan]

Has anyone experienced a high amount of angry people on MTGO? Seems like the good sportsmanship of the paper vintage community has not transferred to MTGO whatsoever.

I've only had one rude opponent in the dailies. It was that guy Raffzahn who accused LSV of being on the whitelist, so I guess his MO is just to tilt people. My impression is that people tend to lash out more against people who play decks they don't like losing to, such as dredge and that phyrexian mana shops list *hint hint*.

[tribet]

Has anyone experienced a high amount of angry people on MTGO? Seems like the good sportsmanship of the paper vintage community has not transferred to MTGO whatsoever.

At the moment with KTK booster worth $2.5, people are a little on the edge in the queues. Winning 80% of your games just to break even is tough times. This may explains that.

[enderfall]

It's fair to say that every digital medium has it's fair share of immature fools. I'm sure that in 99% of the cases those people wouldn't have the courage to act like that in person. Sadly, there isn't anything you can do except report them and hope that WotC cares enough to start handing out some short-term vacations from MTGO.

[Smmenen]

It's fair to say that every digital medium has it's fair share of immature fools. I'm sure that in 99% of the cases those people wouldn't have the courage to act like that in person. Sadly, there isn't anything you can do except report them and hope that WotC cares enough to start handing out some short-term vacations from MTGO.

You can avoid that by closing the chat and never opening it.  That's what I do.

[GalacticHitchHiker]

Has anyone experienced a high amount of angry people on MTGO? Seems like the good sportsmanship of the paper vintage community has not transferred to MTGO whatsoever.

People tend to voice frustration more readily online because there's no human element. You're sitting by yourself at home looking at a screen. There's no social pressure to maintain your composure, and some people let themselves go quite a bit.

[Ahab1248]

Has anyone experienced a high amount of angry people on MTGO? Seems like the good sportsmanship of the paper vintage community has not transferred to MTGO whatsoever.

People tend to voice frustration more readily online because there's no human element. You're sitting by yourself at home looking at a screen. There's no social pressure to maintain your composure, and some people let themselves go quite a bit.

I think it is fairly well understood that the anonymity offered by the internet lowers the behavior level of many people. However, one though I had and wish we could test, is that I suspect the average age of vintage players on MTGO is likely significantly lower than in the paper game. To some extent the financial barrier to entry into the paper game attracts a player more likely to behave in a sporting manner.

[GalacticHitchHiker]

I'm sure you're right, as the barrier to entry for the paper format means that players are likely to be older and thus, more mature. Meanwhile, MTGO Vintage costs about as much as Legacy, which far more players have the budget for.

Edit: And I'm not sure how many opponents would be willing, but it could be possible to poll all of your opponents after your rounds to try to get some date on average player ages for online Vintage.