[C14] - Loreseeker's Stone

[tito del monte]

Loreseekers' Stone 
Artifact
  : Draw three cards. This ability costs  more to activate for each card in your hand.

Considering that both Staff of Nin and that Portal from Conspiracy have found their way into occasional shop builds, does this guy have a chance? Not rare for Shops to have very few cards in hand - and with say an active Metalworker, not hard to play three cards drawn off this each turn.

Seems certainly to have potential - though whether Shops desperately needs a draw engine is the question.

EDIT: And let's not forget Uba Mask!

[Protoaddict]

The threshold for playability is likely how much is drawing 3 cards worth to you, because there will be turns where you need to pay 4-5 to draw anything and just cannot activate it and cast in the same turn.

I am inclined to think staff is better because it can also pick off problematic creatures like Pyromancer and requires no mana, but Ive been wrong on things like this before. If anything is probably needs to just remain in peoples memory because its the type of ability that can always become relevant.

[fsecco]

It probably seems playable only in Metalworker builds. That said, being able to draw 3 in the mid-game could be very nice for Shops. I think Metalworker is not popular these days, but this is definitely a card that should be noted. I may be biased because I consider Staff of Nin a staple for any MUD/Stax these days.

[tito del monte]

Thanks for posting the picture Fsecco. And yes - it's at least worth bearing in mind. I mean, if everyone else is going to be drawing three cards in the mid-game all the time.....

As you mention, it probably fights Staff of Nin for a slot - and the added utility, plus no activation cost, probably puts Staff ahead. Still, three cards.... not to be sniffed at...

[xouman]

Well, Metalworker is played here in LCV, and Nam Tran played 4 in the EW top 8. That said, this card is only great when opponent has destroyed most of your deployment, because if you have run out of gas but everything it's on the battlefield, you are ok.

Still, it's an interesting card, quite powerful, so I cannot dismiss it immediately :p

[MaximumCDawg]

Wow... Wizards really is keeping up their recent kick of making absurdly broken effects at high mana costs.  Keranos, Narset, now this.  I'm super excited about this card.

This ability is totally bonkers, let's be clear about that at the outset.  Dump my hand, pay 3 to reload.  It's doing the same thing Treasure Cruise does; keep a tempo or aggressive deck churning through the library.  Unlike Cruise, it costs much more mana to get going.  But, once you do, it's 3 cards a turn potentially.  That is insane, people.  There is no other artifact that can give you three more cards every turn like this.  Mask, Cloister, and the like only give you one.  If this sticks around, YOU WIN.  Ability: clearly playable, probably broken.

So the next problem becomes the cost.  With Narset the problem was if you're cheating out creatures she is outclassed by cards that win the game immediately.  Here, if you're tinkering an artifact, you probably do not want this because Vault, Memory Jar, or a bot are probably all better.  So we're talking a bout shops, essentially.

And in shops... holy crap.  Turn 3, drop this guy?  Even if it gets to activate just once, how does your opponent come back from that? 

Anti-Library of Alexandria (Library of Mohammad?) is amazing.

[fsecco]

That's right, if you drop Metalworker on turn 1, you can probably play and activate this turn 2-3. Wow.

[gkraigher]

Card is good with metalworker.  Tap, revel tons of artifacts, cast said artifacts, active this for 3-6 mana to draw more artifacts. 

[MaximumCDawg]

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that an effect this powerful - on an ARTIFACT of all things - is just destined for great things.  Worth warping your deck around, potentially.  This is really, really good.

[fsecco]

I'm on the street now, but I think we should do some math to see if this is really god with Metalworker. I mean, the more cards you have in hand, Metalworker generates more mana, but this also costs more to activate.

You actually need 3 artifacts in hand for this to be activated "for free" (aka only with Metalworker mana). So maybe this card actually gets better with Metalworker the more cards you have in hand.

[dangerlinto]

Not sure the "rarity" of uncommon is all that meaningful in a commander product, but if easier to get because it's uncommon that would be nice.

[gkraigher]

uncommon in commander should mean some overlap in the decks that it is in.  More than 2 at least. 

[H]

uncommon in commander should mean some overlap in the decks that it is in.  More than 2 at least. 

Yeah but less than all five (that would be a common I think).

Also, does the art look like something out of the old He-Man cartoon to anyone else besides me?  I kind of like it, so much different than the usual stuff they push out now.

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm on the street now, but I think we should do some math to see if this is really god with Metalworker. I mean, the more cards you have in hand, Metalworker generates more mana, but this also costs more to activate.

You actually need 3 artifacts in hand for this to be activated "for free" (aka only with Metalworker mana). So maybe this card actually gets better with Metalworker the more cards you have in hand.

Sure, but heres' what you do.

Workshop, Metalworker, pass.  (5 cards in hand if on the play)
Your turn.  Tap metalworker, reveal hand.  Say you've got 4 artifacts and two lands in there (pretty meh hand for Shops), one is Loreseeker.  That's 8 mana.  Play a land, and let's say two of the artifacts are moxen or whatever.  That's 12 mana total.  Then tap your Workshop for 3 mana, for 15 total.  Spend 6 to cast Loreseeker.  Whether they counter it or not, deploy the threat or lock piece in your hand next.  I dunno, say it's a Golem (leaving you with 4 mana) or a Sphere (leaving you with 6).  Either way, you now have one card in hand and enough mana left to activate Loreseeker.

Next turn -- and this is the kicker -- DO IT ALL AGAIN.

Metalworker's stock is about to get really nutty in Legacy.  I'm completing my playset of those little buggers right now.

[fsecco]

Wow, forgot about Legacy MUD. Nice.

[ben_berry]

Isn't metalworker + staff just plain better if you're going the metalworker route?

[gkraigher]

Isn't metalworker + staff just plain better if you're going the metalworker route?

yes but staff is quite bad on its own, whereas this card is fine on its own. 

[ben_berry]

Isn't metalworker + staff just plain better if you're going the metalworker route?

yes but staff is quite bad on its own, whereas this card is fine on its own. 

Given a workshop crypt opener with no metalworker? That would be a fantastic Daze.

[gkraigher]

There might be some confusion, I was referring to Staff of Domination, not Staff of Nin. 

Staff of Domination is bad by itself. 

[sirgog]

Why this isn't (nominally) mythic is beyond me.

This is one of the most high-impact artifacts ever printed, close behind Blightsteel Colossus (12 mana) and Phyrexian Processor (4 mana and 7-12 life). Utterly absurd with Metalworker and possibly playable without it.

I think this will see play, but not really shake up the format. It gives Metalworker Shops a slightly better way to close the game, but doesn't help it before the game is almost decided.

[MaximumCDawg]

Does this possibly even do a thing with Transmute Artifact?  Put it in Tezz or something, have a Grim Monolith, and then midgame you get the ability to Transmute for it at cost and start going to value town.

[Meddling Mike]

Isn't metalworker + staff just plain better if you're going the metalworker route?

yes but staff is quite bad on its own, whereas this card is fine on its own. 

Is this card fine on it's own? Assuming the best case scenario (hellbent) without a metalworker it's a 9 mana investment, 3 of which cannot come from a Mishra's Workshop, to draw 3 cards. The ability is also anti-synergistic with itself going forward.

[ben_berry]

It's not a 4 of so you're top decking it. I couldn't see using forge master to go get it.

[Bill Copes]

Garbage card is garbage.  The only vintage-workshop-playable artifacts that I can think of that have a mana cost activation more than 1 are Batterskull and Steel Hellkite. What they have in common is that they actually threaten the board state and the opponents life total.  This card does neither, nor is it a lock component.

If you want to draw cards with workshops, Memory Jar exists.  Mo' cards, less mana.

[MaximumCDawg]

Garbage card is garbage.  The only vintage-workshop-playable artifacts that I can think of that have a mana cost activation more than 1 are Batterskull and Steel Hellkite. What they have in common is that they actually threaten the board state and the opponents life total.  This card does neither, nor is it a lock component.

If you want to draw cards with workshops, Memory Jar exists.  Mo' cards, less mana.

MUD is a tight deck, and you have to make choices.  Not every awesome artifact sees play.  To that extent, I see your point.

But... garbage?  C'mon now.  

This card is like having an artifact version of Arcanis, the Omnipotent.  It's a cheaper Tower of Destinies(?).  Three mana is a trivial activation cost by midgame for Workshops.  Three mana turn after turn WITHOUT reloading your opponents' grip with countermagic is good. Three cards per activation allows a Shops player to start drawing cards at the rate previously only possible for blue mages.  Cards that provide less of a draw engine for roughly the same cost do see play from time to time. (e.g. Staff of Nin).  Shops has never had access to a draw engine this good before.

Plenty of powerhouse cards are just not quite perfect for vintage play, and so we'll have to see on this guy, but calling it garbage seems really short-sighted.  At worst, I feel like this card is a Thespian Stage; a clearly very powerful and very unique effect which we can identify as such, but it might be awhile before we see decks in Vintage and Legacy starting to really abuse it in productive ways.  This one will either splash in shops right away or it'll creep up on us later, but it's going somewhere.

[enderfall]

I will definitely try this out in various Workshop decks to see how good it actually is. In principle, this card provides a draw engine that was not remotely possible to Workshop decks. The choice between this and Staff of Nin is rather interesting. Nin does other things, like kill Pyromancers and whatnot, so it's a tough choice, but this could easily push one Workshop deck over the top in the mirror match...

[xouman]

I'm pretty interested in Prospero and Forino's bros opinion :p

[Prospero]

I'm pretty interested in Prospero and Forino's bros opinion :p

Garbage card is garbage.  The only vintage-workshop-playable artifacts that I can think of that have a mana cost activation more than 1 are Batterskull and Steel Hellkite. What they have in common is that they actually threaten the board state and the opponents life total.  This card does neither, nor is it a lock component.

If you want to draw cards with workshops, Memory Jar exists.  Mo' cards, less mana.

I agree with Bill, this card is terrible.  Also, good point about Jar.

Six mana (more like eight or nine mana once we factor in my Spheres and Thorns) for an artifact that comes into play and promptly does... nothing.  And then requires me to spend what will likely be another five mana for me to actually net some kind of benefit.  

There's an outside chance that it's playable in Metalworker style decks, but I don't think it's good there either.  

I've been wrong before though, and will be wrong again.

[mr.grim]

The juice is not worth the squeeze on this one.

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm pretty interested in Prospero and Forino's bros opinion :p

Garbage card is garbage.  The only vintage-workshop-playable artifacts that I can think of that have a mana cost activation more than 1 are Batterskull and Steel Hellkite. What they have in common is that they actually threaten the board state and the opponents life total.  This card does neither, nor is it a lock component.

If you want to draw cards with workshops, Memory Jar exists.  Mo' cards, less mana.

I agree with Bill, this card is terrible.  Also, good point about Jar.

Six mana (more like eight or nine mana once we factor in my Spheres and Thorns) for an artifact that comes into play and promptly does... nothing.  And then requires me to spend what will likely be another five mana for me to actually net some kind of benefit.  

There's an outside chance that it's playable in Metalworker style decks, but I don't think it's good there either.  

I've been wrong before though, and will be wrong again.

I don't get the skepticism.  It's not even as if you guys are taking a measured look at it and deciding it's just not quite right for the 6 drop slot.  Your arguments appear to be:

1. Six drops in MUD must win the game on their own and this does not; and
2. This is inferior to Memory Jar.

And that's it.  But, you're not giving any credence to the counter-arguments that:

1. Ancestral Recall every turn does win the game.  Particularly if the game has been slowed down by a Wire or Sphere and you are in a better position to use this than your opponent is to go cruis'n.
2. Memory Jar is both restricted, one-shot, and gives your opponent a fresh grip of countermagic to stop whatever you draw from it.  It's the opposite of a long, grindy card engine.

I don't think coming in here to say "Beep beep back up the garbage truck" is a very compelling argument.  If it's not good enough, it's hardly because it's just a bad card.