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Author Topic: The Force Awakens  (Read 19285 times)
Norm4eva
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« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2016, 02:52:39 pm »

Secondly - and how everyone forgets this, I have no idea - Kylo Ren was holding his insides in while he fought. He got hit by Chewie's insanely powerful crossbow, which is shown to all but obliterate every other thing it hits. Kylo has managed to not only *not* fall into a dozen pieces after this impact but he puts up a bloody good fight against two would-be attackers. He's worn out when Rey starts on him.

Yeah, the movie made a big deal about pointing out how injured Kylo was during this sequence.  First he gets his crotch blown off by the bowcaster, after they make a big deal about how powerful it is all movie long.  Then they show you not once, but twice that he's pounding his side and cringing at something very not right going on inside his body.  Then, they cut to the blood on the ground, and a reaction shot of Finn showing you he realizes he has a shot because this dork is already bleeding out... and then he takes a hit from Finn's wild swinging before he puts him down.  So, yeah, the director bent over backwards to explain why Kylo was an underdog in that fight.

Which I found really odd, because the movie did not give a poop about explaining all the hilariously awful science errors, usually having to do with scale.  (How large is a planet?  How large is a sun?  If you ate a sun and pooped it out at light speed, what would it look like to everyone else?  Would you see it from another planet far away? etc)

Well given Kylo's other fairly extreme Force feats, I think they had to do this so we'd know it was the Force and not the Plot giving her the means to ultimately stalemate that match. I mean, we talk about prequel Jedi looking and feeling very different from the original series Jedi, doing combat on wires and making this giant Super Mario leaps into and away from danger, right? Kylo isn't like that; he honestly feels like an extension of the Sith as displayed in Empire/RotJ imho, but oh my God is he on tilt. He doesn't just Force choke, he fucking Force Get-over-heres you if you cross him. He halts blaster bolts in midair -- even Yoda strains to deflect or absorb Force Lightning. Where Vader used standard interrogation tactics to get information from people, Kylo just reaches in and takes the knowledge he wants. He is a moody mikeyfick but Jesus balls, he's powerful.

I kind of winced when everyone 'saw' the effects of the Starkiller from other planets in realtime too, but eh. Apparently it's a "hyperspace weapon" so you can infer all kinds of ellipses logic to explain that one. I'm not going to; it's sci-fi mixed with fantasy, it's a cowboy Western with space magicians and FTL travel. Wars isn't like other series where, like, if someone commits an illegal action fans can go "omfg you can't BEAM THROUGH THE SHIELDS, it's established like 143 times in the series" because a lot of the jargon is pretty loose and never really used to add storyline tension. How fast is "point-five" past lightspeed? Why is the Kessel Run measured in parsecs, at all? How does a laser beam emitted from a Pringles can reflect back on the owner without being hot af to the touch? How does Strong Bad type with boxing gloves on? I know some of these answers are attempted in the EU, but that does nothing for those of us who primarily reference the movies (and from what I understand, the mere act of releasing Ep VII invalidates any post-RotJ EU canon, meaning it's free-range territory for future endeavors and any attempts to resolve scientific inaccuracies are also tossed into the proverbial Sarlacc pit).
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2016, 04:24:24 pm »

Well, yeah.  This was a fine movie, with real acting, a cohesive story, good characters, yadda yadda.  I'm not complaining... too much.  The lack of any sense of scale just stuck out like such a sore thumb to me given how obviously careful the director was with almost every other aspect of the film.  Like, you can tell what he meant by almost every single shot and every single lighting choice, which roles characters were supposed to fill; details were obsessed over.  

Again, this is in no way meant to suggest the movie is bad, but it's my rant about a black mark on an otherwise fine flick.

[RANT]

I mean, let's talk Death Star versus Star Killer.  So, the Death Star parks itself in close proximity to a planet, let's say, as far away as the moon.  When it fires whatever it fires, it takes a moment to reach the planet consistent with what you see in the original trilogy; about a second.

See: Moon.gif" target="_blank">https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Speed_of_light_from_Earth_to_ Moon.gif

And, assuming what it fires works something like antimatter, even the energy involved is not too insane.

See: https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/the-physics-of-the-death-star-c21ccc58ade9#.4pm1pgnmj

I mean, I know that Lucas wasn't aiming for scientific accuracy, but the SCALE of the original series was small enough that the special effects basically got it right, or at least close enough to make sense.  But the new movie... I mean, the director just went BIGGER BADDER BETTER and science be damned.  He jacked up the scale so much that the whole thing just gets comical.

So, this new Starkiller eats a star and then poops something out at hyperspace-speeds that is capable of blowing up planets.  If we're talking just the raw energy required, then that's all well and good.  See: http://nerdist.com/the-physics-of-starkiller-base-how-powerful-is-the-force-awakens-superweapon/  I can swallow the idea that we've got technology that captures and emits that much energy in the form of Star-Poop.  

Where I get annoyed is how the properties of light and relativity gets ignored.  It's established that Light Speed is a thing in Star Wars and it doesn't actually lead to time dilation, so thats not a big deal.  Fine, I can also swallow that you shoot a beam into hyperspace or whatever and it interacts with normal matter again at the target point.  But, remember that Han and the gang could SEE a BEAM from where they were, randomly many star systems away from the targets.  That means light is leaving the beam at angles.  Even assuming they are leaving from a hyperspace bypass or something, leaking out the side, they STILL need to travel through regular space between the trail of the beam and the planet Han's gawking from.  That's going to take YEARS even if the shot is going off the next star over.  

The next scale problem happens when Han and crew land on the Starkiller.  He didn't have a controlled landing in a safe place; they crashed.  It's the size of a planet; yet you land within walking distance of: (1) something other than uninhabited wastelands; (2) the shield control room; (3) a high-ranking officer able to use the shield, AND (4) the prisoner you were looking for; BUT NOT (5) the millions of soldiers hanging around.

So, yeah, the movie jacked up the scale but didn't fix the science, and that bothered me.

[/rant]

Well given Kylo's other fairly extreme Force feats, I think they had to do this so we'd know it was the Force and not the Plot giving her the means to ultimately stalemate that match. I mean, we talk about prequel Jedi looking and feeling very different from the original series Jedi, doing combat on wires and making this giant Super Mario leaps into and away from danger, right? Kylo isn't like that; he honestly feels like an extension of the Sith as displayed in Empire/RotJ imho, but oh my God is he on tilt. He doesn't just Force choke, he fucking Force Get-over-heres you if you cross him. He halts blaster bolts in midair -- even Yoda strains to deflect or absorb Force Lightning. Where Vader used standard interrogation tactics to get information from people, Kylo just reaches in and takes the knowledge he wants. He is a moody mikeyfick but Jesus balls, he's powerful.

I loved Kylo and started referring to him as "F*ck-Up Vader" halfway through the movie because thats what he is.

EDIT:  Also, once they build the StarKiller, why isn't it literally firing ALL OF THE TIME.  The entire war is over.  Whoops, every day you lose four or five planets.  We're done here.

Also, here's a happy thought:  Jar Jar Binks was probably on (Courasant?  Couirsant?) Crossiant when it went up like a birthday candle.  Him, and everyone else in the prequels.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 04:32:45 pm by MaximumCDawg » Logged
Norm4eva
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« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2016, 05:34:03 pm »

EDIT:  Also, once they build the StarKiller, why isn't it literally firing ALL OF THE TIME.  The entire war is over.  Whoops, every day you lose four or five planets.  We're done here.

The Empire has this bad habit of "making examples" of people. Just as Alderaan has to be the target of the original Death Star, so does one (apparently) very visible target to let everyone know just how bamf the Starkiller is.

Also I don't think they can just shoot it all willy-nilly because they have to bleed a star dry when they do it -- isn't it like a 1-to-1 ratio? One star, one shot? So they probably can't just drive the planet around without being extra cautious about where and how it gets from one place to another. I guess.
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bactgudz
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« Reply #93 on: January 05, 2016, 12:34:40 pm »

Secondly - and how everyone forgets this, I have no idea - Kylo Ren was holding his insides in while he fought. He got hit by Chewie's insanely powerful crossbow, which is shown to all but obliterate every other thing it hits. Kylo has managed to not only *not* fall into a dozen pieces after this impact but he puts up a bloody good fight against two would-be attackers. He's worn out when Rey starts on him.

Yeah, the movie made a big deal about pointing out how injured Kylo was during this sequence.  First he gets his crotch blown off by the bowcaster, after they make a big deal about how powerful it is all movie long.  Then they show you not once, but twice that he's pounding his side and cringing at something very not right going on inside his body.  Then, they cut to the blood on the ground, and a reaction shot of Finn showing you he realizes he has a shot because this dork is already bleeding out... and then he takes a hit from Finn's wild swinging before he puts him down.  So, yeah, the director bent over backwards to explain why Kylo was an underdog in that fight.

Which I found really odd, because the movie did not give a poop about explaining all the hilariously awful science errors, usually having to do with scale.  (How large is a planet?  How large is a sun?  If you ate a sun and pooped it out at light speed, what would it look like to everyone else?  Would you see it from another planet far away? etc)

Well given Kylo's other fairly extreme Force feats, I think they had to do this so we'd know it was the Force and not the Plot giving her the means to ultimately stalemate that match. I mean, we talk about prequel Jedi looking and feeling very different from the original series Jedi, doing combat on wires and making this giant Super Mario leaps into and away from danger, right? Kylo isn't like that; he honestly feels like an extension of the Sith as displayed in Empire/RotJ imho, but oh my God is he on tilt. He doesn't just Force choke, he fucking Force Get-over-heres you if you cross him. He halts blaster bolts in midair -- even Yoda strains to deflect or absorb Force Lightning. Where Vader used standard interrogation tactics to get information from people, Kylo just reaches in and takes the knowledge he wants. He is a moody mikeyfick but Jesus balls, he's powerful.

I kind of winced when everyone 'saw' the effects of the Starkiller from other planets in realtime too, but eh. Apparently it's a "hyperspace weapon" so you can infer all kinds of ellipses logic to explain that one. I'm not going to; it's sci-fi mixed with fantasy, it's a cowboy Western with space magicians and FTL travel. Wars isn't like other series where, like, if someone commits an illegal action fans can go "omfg you can't BEAM THROUGH THE SHIELDS, it's established like 143 times in the series" because a lot of the jargon is pretty loose and never really used to add storyline tension. How fast is "point-five" past lightspeed? Why is the Kessel Run measured in parsecs, at all? How does a laser beam emitted from a Pringles can reflect back on the owner without being hot af to the touch? How does Strong Bad type with boxing gloves on? I know some of these answers are attempted in the EU, but that does nothing for those of us who primarily reference the movies (and from what I understand, the mere act of releasing Ep VII invalidates any post-RotJ EU canon, meaning it's free-range territory for future endeavors and any attempts to resolve scientific inaccuracies are also tossed into the proverbial Sarlacc pit).

Whoa,
We need to stop at first principles if we think anything in the Star Wars Universe obeys the same laws of physics as ours...that a planet can consume a sun or that people can see things traveling at lightspeed as though time is passing in the same reference frame is hardly a problem when we can hear explosions in space.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 12:39:11 pm by bactgudz » Logged
Norm4eva
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« Reply #94 on: January 05, 2016, 02:09:10 pm »

Quote
Whoa,
We need to stop at first principles if we think anything in the Star Wars Universe obeys the same laws of physics as ours...that a planet can consume a sun or that people can see things traveling at lightspeed as though time is passing in the same reference frame is hardly a problem when we can hear explosions in space.

Right, that's... that's what I said Very Happy

I pick on Star Trek when it fucks up its playbook, but Star Wars is just not that technical to make it worthwhile. The Force is literally the most hand-wavey DexM in the history of all things.
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CHA1N5
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« Reply #95 on: January 05, 2016, 02:37:11 pm »

Also, here's a happy thought:  Jar Jar Binks was probably on (Courasant?  Couirsant?) Crossiant when it went up like a birthday candle.  Him, and everyone else in the prequels.

Assuming you're referring to the planets that StarKiller... um... 'kills' during the movie: it/they were not Coruscant, it was the Hosnian system: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hosnian_system

There is a non-zero chance that Jar-Jar was on Hosnian Prime, given it's governmental position, but we don't know.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #96 on: January 05, 2016, 02:52:12 pm »

Quote
Whoa,
We need to stop at first principles if we think anything in the Star Wars Universe obeys the same laws of physics as ours...that a planet can consume a sun or that people can see things traveling at lightspeed as though time is passing in the same reference frame is hardly a problem when we can hear explosions in space.

Right, that's... that's what I said Very Happy

I pick on Star Trek when it fucks up its playbook, but Star Wars is just not that technical to make it worthwhile. The Force is literally the most hand-wavey DexM in the history of all things.

I don't want real,  just consistent.   
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Smmenen
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« Reply #97 on: January 05, 2016, 08:08:48 pm »

I've already shared my view of the film: an impressive, but not flawless, film, and highly entertaining without resting too much on nostalgia. 

That said, as well received as this film was, it is undergirded by more than a few key mysteries which, depending on their explanation, could very well undermine our perception of this film in the future.  It's odd to think that another film could color our perception of this one, but it's probably inevitable.
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tribet
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« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2016, 07:28:03 am »

A little too many unnecessary swear words to my liking but this made me smile. It's not from me. http://imgur.com/gallery/7EhqwbF


People keep complaining about the fact that Finn and Rey beat Kylo at the end of TFA.

"He's so weak!"
"Beat by two nobodies!"
"Bitch got rofl-stomped by newbs!"

Did you watch the movie?

Did you pay attention at all?

Let's rewind a bit, and talk about something that comes up over a dozen times; Chewie's bowcaster.

The movie is like a freaking infomercial for the epic tons of fuck you and everything around you for the next twenty feet that this badass piece of weaponry dishes out like second helpings of your grandma's world famous mashed potatoes.

We see time again Chewie dealing heaping truckloads of fuck that guy and his entire lineage with this death-dealing weapon of pure carnage. He hits a Stormtrooper in the breadbasket and sends that poor sod flying twenty feet back into a wall as his armor shatters on the ground.

Han makes a point of asking Chewie if he can try it out, and then proceeds to obliterate five (two*) troopers with one easy shot.

Let's not mince words here. Chewie's Bowcaster is like the unholy love child of the original fucking crossbow and a howitzer. The Empire should have just strapped this piece of weaponized fuck you to the front of an asteroid, aimed it Alderaan, and saved themselves the trouble of housing a giant space station.

So...after being shown the pure unadulterated hell that spews forth from this hand-held death cannon in a deluge of destruction and demise, we can all agree that being shot with this thing tops a long list of things you don't want to happen to you.

Well, it happens to Kylo Ren.

And, what does he do? Well, he doesn't get thrown through the air like every other fucking thing that gets hit by this murder machine. In fact, he just kind of takes a knee for a minute. He doesn't get instantly wrecked while careening through the air hoping for the sweet release of death. He gets up, and proceeds to walk it the fuck off.

But, he doesn't just quit there. He doesn't just walk off what everything else in the universe instantly dies from. He goes out to find a couple bitches, and tear them apart.

The amount of control, the amount of pure Force power to stay standing after taking a shot like that is mind-bending. But, he doesn't just stay standing. He goes out and fights. He should have been dead right there, or at least screaming in pain as his insides fought to be outside his body. But, he fights. He's using untold amounts of pure Force energy to keep his insides inside, to keep himself conscious, to keep his legs, arms, and body moving, all while fighting two people who, until this point, haven't really been spending a ton of energy. They're practically fresh. And, no training? Finn's a STORMTROOPER. He's been combat trained since childhood. You bet your ass he can handle himself in a fight. And, Rey? Rey's been kicking ass hand-to-hand since before she can remember. Sure, it's an unfamiliar weapon, but you give someone, with an inkling of how to fight, a stick and they'll hold their own.

Of course two people beat Kylo at the end. Dude's nursing a gut wound that would put down a Rhino on steroids. The question shouldn't be how did Finn and Rey beat him.

It should be this:

If Kylo Ren could do all of that after taking that kind of hit...how in the fuck are they going to stop him when he's at one hundred percent?

</end rant>

FP edit: Holy...I go to sleep for a little while, and I wake up with delusions of grandeur. You guys rock!
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bactgudz
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« Reply #99 on: January 06, 2016, 11:41:51 am »

Quote
Whoa,
We need to stop at first principles if we think anything in the Star Wars Universe obeys the same laws of physics as ours...that a planet can consume a sun or that people can see things traveling at lightspeed as though time is passing in the same reference frame is hardly a problem when we can hear explosions in space.

Right, that's... that's what I said Very Happy

I pick on Star Trek when it fucks up its playbook, but Star Wars is just not that technical to make it worthwhile. The Force is literally the most hand-wavey DexM in the history of all things.

I don't want real,  just consistent.  

But that is my point...it is consistent in a way.  It hearkens back to a pre-1900s model of a clockwork universe where there is a ubiquitous substance, "aether", "medicloreans", or "force", throughout the universe.  Sound can propagate through this substance, light is a wave that propagates through this substance and Maxwell's equation's only hold exactly in some preferred frame of reference, hence there is no relativity principle, no one experiences time dilation when traveling long distances, and we have some alternative theory of gravitation, allowing us to hand-wave compressing a sun into a planet.  And the determinism inherent in a universe of prophecies  hint that the underpinnings of quantum mechanics do not hold as well.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #100 on: January 06, 2016, 01:57:38 pm »

We barely understand physics of the here and now.  A long time ago in a galaxy far far away who knows if physics follows the same principles and laws.
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thecrav
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« Reply #101 on: January 06, 2016, 03:02:00 pm »

That said, as well received as this film was, it is undergirded by more than a few key mysteries which, depending on their explanation, could very well undermine our perception of this film in the future.  It's odd to think that another film could color our perception of this one, but it's probably inevitable.

This seems like an excellent business decision. Make a movie where they'll definitely go see (pay for) it and make it so they're not 100% sure if they liked that movie until they see (pay for) another movie we release!
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Instead of tearing things down we should calmly explain our opinions.
MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #102 on: January 06, 2016, 03:04:16 pm »

The Force Awakens sure seems to follow the laws of physics as we know them on a small scale: life using photosynthesis, people walking around, stars existing, gravity being a thing...  And, if the speed of light worked dramatically differently, that shouldn't be true. See http://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Barrow/Barrow4.html

This is not to say that Star Wars is bad because it's not real.  It's just that I tend to think a movie or story is better if there is a coherent, consistent logic to the universe the story takes place in.  Like, for example, Tolkien's Middle Earth.  (Not the movie versions necessarily).  There is a deep backstory that the author had in mind that actually links up many of the strange things that happen.

Star Wars seems to just kind of... do whatever it wants and then leave it up to post-hoc justifications to explain it.  
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2016, 03:24:19 pm »

The Force Awakens sure seems to follow the laws of physics as we know them on a small scale: life using photosynthesis, people walking around, stars existing, gravity being a thing...  And, if the speed of light worked dramatically differently, that shouldn't be true. See http://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Barrow/Barrow4.html

This is not to say that Star Wars is bad because it's not real.  It's just that I tend to think a movie or story is better if there is a coherent, consistent logic to the universe the story takes place in.  Like, for example, Tolkien's Middle Earth.  (Not the movie versions necessarily).  There is a deep backstory that the author had in mind that actually links up many of the strange things that happen.

Star Wars seems to just kind of... do whatever it wants and then leave it up to post-hoc justifications to explain it.  

Well there is one glaring difference between our Galaxy and theirs in terms of physics and that is the existence of the Force (as far as we are aware that is).  The Force existing in their Galaxy could mean that their entire population has a heightened sense of awareness compared to ours.

Hyper drives, light sabers, and other forms of technology are so far beyond our comprehension, and by Clarke's third law we will be left in awe of it or in extreme doubt of it.

Just because their life system seems to be similar to ours doesn't mean it's driven by the same things.  It's a fair hypothesis, but any Physicist would tell you it ends there.  We can't know how their science differs without more information.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2016, 03:28:43 pm »

Yes, and we play a Magical Card Game for Babies where we pretend we are Wizards summoning Dragons and Goblins and Urza, Planeswalker.  I realize we can't speculate on the physics of fairylands.  I keep in perspective, man. 

I'm just saying that stories are better when the author has sat down and pondered carefully the rules and the universe.  I really don't think that J.J.Abrams did that (it wasn't his goal) and so the movie wasn't as good as it could have been.  It's like... Star Wars is to The Matrix was Sword of Shanarra is to Lord of the Rings.  Does that make sense?
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2016, 03:36:31 pm »

I honestly hated the Matrix.  The explanations were poor at best.  The whole breaking the matrix, the system having a virus, ect. wasn't wholly believable to me.  I haven't seen Sword of Shanarra.  Discussing all the nitty gritty details is an option some writers have taken, and some viewers prefer it.  I think if done well yes it does improve the believability of the story, but often it is not done well and it detracts from the entertainment value of the movie.
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« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2016, 09:28:11 pm »

The first Matrix film was a fantastic analogy to Plato's Cave. 

The second and third were greater in scope but really fell short of the first films potential.
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