Ankh Sligh

[Androstanolone]

Since I started in this forum I've been thinking much more seriously about sligh and the current metagame.  I think that, to survive, the first priority is a way to deal with bigger aggro.  Obviously this is TNT and Madness.

In these matchups sligh must become the control deck.  Sligh needs to sideboard appropriately.  We need a card that is proactive, not responsive, preferably deals damage somehow and deals with big creatures.  I think the card to consider in the side is flametongue kavu, which can go 2 for 1 against both TNT and madness.  Its casting cost is prohibitive, but it has significant power.  Against the bigger aggros I'd look at a SB of -4 goblin cadets and +4 flametongue kavu.  Against TNT I'd also try to fit in some rack and ruin.  It alters the manabase but provides a significant boost, in tandem with price of progress I think sligh can have a decent chance against these decks, who traditionally sligh would have the hardest time against.  Also, my testing is showing that sligh does not autolose to combo, round 1 the odds are very out of favor but pillars or crypts make all the difference.  I played dragon earlier today and brought in my pillars from the side, with a combination of pillars and ankhs he simply couldn't go off before he was quickly burned to the ground and bashed by dorks.  Dragon is less popular though, but trix is also not a bad matchup.  Trix relies on its life total to draw enough cards to get to its pieces, sligh can restrict their life total and thus their card draw extremely fast.  Their is a significant chance they simply won't have enough life to draw through to their bullets before you can win.  Against long, a resolved pillar means it is practically over.  Trix runs the most backup for its combo, but also depends on a healthy life total the most.  

In addition, control has also been, and will continue to be a pretty good matchup for sligh.  I think we can improve its bad matchups with the use of flametongue kavu in the SB, next to the already highly useful anti-TNT card rack and ruin.  I also think that the dependence of current combos on fast, cheap mana and cheap spells, in addition to some dependence on their life totals (bargain and deathwish) all improve sligh's chances.  Don't take me the wrong way, I'm not saying sligh's going to the top anytime soon, but I think that it suffers from the fact that most skilled players do not run it and a LOT of scrubs do.  I think it doesn't get the credit it deserves and some people discount it prematurely.  

@Feanor:  I took out ALL my shaman for lavamancers.  It is the general rule in sligh to go either one way or the other for redundancy.  If you're going to run shaman and slant slightly torwards mana denial, then run 4.  If not, then don't run any and run something good in its place.  So no, running 4 monkies isn't a bad thing at all.  Not running cadets is kinda bad :/.  



- Androstan

[Tha Gunslinga]

I ran 4 Lavamancers and 4 Scrolls MD.  I killed the deck, however, when I added 4 Pyrostatic Pillars because I convinced myself that they were good.  Maindeck, in a mostly scrub metagame, they blow.  4 Pillars, plus 4 Ankhs, tends to kill you faster than your opponent.


Scrolls I could never leave out, though.  They can't be Fired, they sneak under countermagic, they're colorless sources of damage, and they massacre aggro and control.

[Androstanolone]

Obviously you wouldn't MD pillar in the current meta, but if you bring them in against the right decks they win games.  

Scroll mostly massacres weenie aggro, which there is very little of in the current competitive meta.  Also I don't see anyone running around with Cop: Reds, story circles, or pro red creatures (again, in the current competitive meta).  So the fact that scroll is colorless isn't much of an advantage right now.  Sometimes it is just too slow (hard to always have 1 card in hand).  I'd rather have some fast damage that can't be the target of artifact removal, like price of progress.  Don't get me wrong, scroll's a good card, I just don't think it's better than the other burn spells that I run except against WW.  

I'm starting testing of SBed flametongue kavu instead of scrolls for the boost against TNT/madness.  I fear they will be too slow, but I gotta try.



- Androstan

[Lyhrrus]

I figure the biggest drawback to egg is that it's slow.  I guess I slow roll with my Sligh deck more than fast burn, which works for me.  Then again, it could just be my scubby meta that allows this.

A few more comments about egg:

It does not die to Fire/Ice, being a 6/6.
It is colorless damage.
It is one of Sligh's few answers to the new fat aggro.
If it resolves, additional bonus when opponents counter your spells.

You also don't play egg with opponents having UU open.


Then again, I'm all for playing a jank deck.   :lol:


EDIT: I just realized, the best tech card against Trix is Blood Moon.

Also, don't run FTK, it really is too much of a strain on your mana base.  You might as well run Ensnaring Bridge.

[slighguy]

i have been playing sligh forver(near 5 years now)its my favorite deck cause it has speed and some ok controlbut i think anhk is a must in a meta with workshops and bazaars simlply because you have to be able to shut that draw mechanism down against madness with the 5 strip effects and they wont wanna play to many lands for fear of them/anhk/and i run 4 maindeck price if progress.as for the workshop decks there whole gameplan is get a sh*t load of mana first then put the lockdown on you but if you strip there workshops and kill there metal workers there is not much they can do once you drop an anhk except maybe chalice for 1 but thats what the good old mox monkey is for. well anyway this is my list as of the moment.

dorks//
4-slith firewalker
4-jackal pup
4-gorrila shaman

to the dome//
4-lightning bolt
4-chain lightning
4-price of progress
2-meta slots but for now there incinerates

utility//
4-cursed scroll(aggro beater)
4-anhk of mishra
1-fork
1-wheel of fortune
1-blackvise

mana//
1-mox ruby
1-black lotus
1-sol ring
1-strip mine
4-wastelands
15-mountains

sideboard//
4-bloodmoon
4-scald
4-rack and ruin
3-pillage(i really hate masticore)


anythoughts on the decklist would be nice
                                  thanks

Don't use bold for your entiere post please. And use capital letters and colons.
-- Toad

[Fëanor]

@Slighguy: Do you know how to spell They're?
Um for your deck. Basically if you want some good feedback, simply read this whole article starting at the BEGINNING. Pretty much any good thought about current Ankh Sligh these days has been mentioned, and almost everything in your deck has been mentioned. Plus, don't take over my thread, write your own. Sorry for the negativity, but i want to make absolutely sure no-one screws up my accomplishments (however useless they may seem ).

@Androstan: Gonna have to go with Lyrrus on the Flametongue Kavu. 4cc may be fine for any normal deck, but here, we don't want to be either mana screwed or tapped out at times. Then again if you feel it would really cripple, it might be worth it, but there has to be some kind of turning point in the game if you're willing to pay 4 mana.

I think a new dillema has come to present. We now have this for creature base.

Vandal ---- 'Mancer --- Cadets --- Pups --- Munkys --- Factories

WOW! Too many creatures here. I think Vandal can come out. He is a great artifact killer, but hey that's what my beatiful R+R SB are for.
With three mishra's and four Cadets, Pups, Munkys, that's fifteen. Adding more than one 'Mancer (and I want to) would cut into the rest of the deck. See my decklist if that doesn't seem clear. So if I want to keep it as 20/20/20 as possible, what would i take out for more?


Tiki's updated decklist of unimaginable fun and stuff just so people can look at it on this page so they don't have to look back at the previous page:

//Beasties:
4 mox munky
4 jackal pup
3 goblin cadets
4 grim lavamancer
//Ankh
4 ankh of mishra
//Burn:
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
3 PoP
4 incinerate
3 fireblast
//Mana/ManaKillers:
R mox ruby
15 mountain
4 wasteland
2 mishra's factory
R strip

SB:
4 BEB
4 R+R
4 tormod's crypt
3 scald

20/20/20 Factor:
Beasties: 17
Mana: 21
Burn Etc.: 22

Thanks all for your help, keep 'em comin'

Peace

EDIT: My thoughts, Take out Scald temporarily to try pillar??????

[Androstanolone]

@lyhrrus:  You are incorrect about egg.  The egg is deactivated by fire/ice, or has everyone forgot that you can use the "ice" spell too?  They can simply tap your big 6/6 and now it's dead again until they cast 3 MORE spells...   as if they didn't have enough time already to deal with it.  I'm assuming you overlooked this.

@Feanor:  -1 Pop and +1 mancer.  Or -1 mountain +1 mancer.  

@slighguy sol ring and black lotus have little use in sligh, and wheel of fortune, black vise, and fork can all be taken out for more useful synergistic slots.  You should really run all 4 incinerates.  You also have no fireblast O_O.  Fireblast has won me more games than I care to guess, its speed in T1 is priceless.  You need 2 minimum and 3 preferably.  Also, slith is only good if your meta has very little creature removal, otherwise he's just an overcosted weenie.  And if low creature removal was the case, I'd just play ball lightning, it's way faster.  Otherwise, run a more efficient weenie like goblin cadets or grim lavamancer, or one with utility that helps in your meta, like goblin vandals in artifact heavy metas.  Cursed scroll is decent, I'd rather see grim lavamancer in this spot.  So, the immediate changes I would make are:  -1 Wof -1 black vise -1 fork -1 sol ring -1 black lotus -1 price of progress -4 cursed scroll -4 slith firewalker +3 grim lavamancer +4 goblin cadets +4 goblin vandal +3 fireblast.

[Rane]

PHEW! OK.  I leave for like 3 days and come back to what I just spent the last 15mins reading.

To quickly sum up a few things;
Ric is a great GAT player, but clearly does lack some of the knowledge of a skilled T1 Sligh player.  This means no offense, just a clarifictaion for people coming into the thread reading all the posts I just did.  We have gone over many reasonings of card choices earlier back there somewhere.  This leads me to people coming into the thread and not reading all the posts.  It is ok to disagree, but only if you have read other people's reasonings first.  Some people have clearly not done this.  I know 9 pages are a bit but if you can't be bothered to read them then don't be bothered to post, future posts will simply be ignored to prevent flaming and spam.  

Some notes, people know who they are directed to;
- Egg is jank, Ball is way too slow, Egg is slower :\.
- Mancers own heh'.
- FK's suck, they used to be great and I still love em but they are too slow.  I do give you props for trying though thats what I do.
- WoF is jank, go back and read.
- Vise, Fork, and some other cards can be GREAT cards in Sligh.  But due to their lack of consistency in usefulness they are auto-cuts.  The only restricted card that are going to make it into Sligh is Necropotence for Rcc.
- Ports are TOOOOO SLOOOOOWWWW in T1.  You're better off making a LD deck.  Add to this that they are completly baby-crawling speed in Sligh.
- Tangle Wire.  With factories to power them out and permanents to combat then more power to em, but as for Sligh, ditto.

I'd like to give props to c9h13no3 for stepping in and defending Andro whilst I was out' heh.

Now onto the deck.  Andro hit it right on the head when he said it is played by scrubs badly, and rejected by most skilled players.  Of course it is not tier 1... yet.  But that's what we're here for.  We're the people who are putting time into tweaking Sligh to make in Tier 1 even though we could just go play whatever else is reigning at the moment.  We play it cause we all love Lightning Bolts, well that's my reason anyway .

I have done a LOT of reasoning about card choices/strategies/slots and the deck recently and so here goes;
It is now completely necessary to only use cards that deal dmg.  Sligh MUST use cards that DEAL DMG (Bolt) or allow them to DEAL DMG (Mountain).  In saying this however there is a HUGE exception, which it appears Andro has also realised.  Sligh's primary matchups are other Aggro.  In this it must become the deck with the answers as I just cannot out-race first turn double nought, no matter how hard I try .  So I have been desperatly trying to shape my MD+SB to reflect the "Deal dmg, and/or disrupt whilst still dealing dmg" philosophy.  Unfortunatly it has been to little avail, but that's what we're here for!

Some quick notes:  The reasons above are why things like Scald>Blood Moon and Shaman>Vandal.  Shaman does dmg and eats moxen WHILST doing dmg.  Scald pisses off the opponent WHILST doing dmg.  I think you can all see what I'm saying.

With that the current list, which has the slight problem of being a 500 card deck list...

Jackal Pup
Goblin Cadets
Gorilla Shaman
Grim Lavamancer

Reckless Charge

Ankh of Mishra
Cursed Scroll

Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
Incinerate
Price of Progress
Fireblast

Pillage

Mishra's Factory
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Mox Ruby
Barbarian Ring
Mountain

SB
Pyrostatic Pillar
Scald
Tormods Crypt
ReB's
Pyrokinesis
Rack and Ruin
Meltdown <------------------My new pet.  I killed 2xnought, 1xmask, 3xmox, 1xgreaves with one card.

That's everything and anything that could end up in my final decklist... and I'm SURE that I've forgotten some.  Many things have come up, such as although Rings > Mancers and they don't work to great together, I'm willing to see if I can work around this, as I don't know how much more 2 dmg is now.  Like I said there are exceptions in the 'just deal dmg' when you vs things like dragon that just want to explode.  Also many thoughts about moving Pillar to MD.  I can't find ONE matchup where Pillar is bad (BESIDES THE MIRROR.)  So yeh, I'm tired now so I'll come back to this later.

[Androstanolone]

Hey Rane, have to say I'm really glad to see you back in this thread.  About flametongue kavu, yeah he's too slow, which I was pretty sure would happen before I tried him.  But hey, nothing else has been working against the fatties running around, so it never hurts to try out some tech.

ditto on all your dashes

Also remember that barbarian rings have negative synergy with fireblast, in addition to lavamancer.  Trying to run all 3 would be quite a strain.  About pyrostatic pillar MDed, I've never actually tested it but it's quite true that most of the spells in T1, no matter what deck, are 3cc or less.  This, however, excludes TNT to a large extent, the worst matchup.  You should try it out and tell me how it goes ^_^.  Also meltdown is a nice card .  It can be a near-shatterstorm for far less mana.  Sucks that it's also at sorcery speed, plus artifact decks will probably power out high CC artifacts before you have the mana to melt them down.  Still, it has potential.  

I'm not sure if reckless charge belongs on your list of potentials, it's basically a less dependable chain lightning, though if cast on a 2/1 dork it's 5 damage that turn.  Still, this requires you have a dork, and that you cast it the same turn you play the dork.  If not the same turn, then it's just another chain lightning that won't deal the 3 damage as often.  MDing pillage is a meta choice, if you see enough TNT, wMUD, or masticores then it can stay.  Cursed scroll is a good card but I've found that I can't fit it in because other spells are simply more dependable and/or faster.  Your creatures are perfect, I like vandals but shaman are certainly useful too.  I may just go with shaman instead of vandals and just SB extra artifact h8.  Btw, viashino heretic is great damage+disruption, too bad it's too slow against wMUD :/.  

My current list:

4 pup
4 cadet
4 mancer
4 shaman

4 bolt
4 chain
4 incin
4 ankh
3 Price
3 fireblast

1 mox ruby
1 strip
4 waste
2 factory
14 mountain

SB:

4 R&R
4 scald
4 pillar
3 shattering pulse (yay I can buy it back...)

[Androstanolone]

Just another quick testament to the versatility of pyrostatic pillar.  I just played a reanimator deck that was pretty off from normal reanimator, sort of a random but it was well made.  I didn't have anything to SB except pillar, but it won the game.  If you replace incinerate with pillar, it will always come out doing more damage than incinerate (and easily as much as ankh), and is always a net gain in kill speed against the right decks.  Many decks don't need more than a couple lands to go on, pillar nicely replaces ankh in this case.  Others need lands but also play cheap spells, pillar simply replaces incinerate.  It's a highly versatile anti combo card, with potential in other matchups also, even unexpected combo like a random reanimatefattie.dec.

[Fëanor]

Jackal Pup: Truly better than Cadets now that I know the whole technique thing. A must in Ankh Sligh

Goblin Cadets: Just as much of a must, but you'd better already have 4 Pups first.

Gorilla Shaman: Truly a bomb in early game. its still a Dwarven Pony after that, give the munky some credit. Another must in competitive.

Grim Lavamancer: Kills pesky Gay. Kills pesky MUD. Potentially kills pretty much anything in combo with a Bolt . What were you using FTK for????

Reckless Charge: Used to play it all the time in 1.5. It's just too weak in cometitive, except scrub areas. Nevertheless still a kickass card.

Ankh of Mishra: Oh...what's the name of this card? Never heard of Ankh b4

Cursed Scroll: Like Charge, a great 1.5 card. 'Mancer is just better here. I never want to empty my hand enough in this deck to do two damage.

Lightning Bolt: Rane is right, I'm starting 'Team Bolt'

Chain Lightning: Truthfully a dangerous card to play against some decks, but its another bolt and it still kicks.

Incinerate: See above, I think I'll start 'Team Incin' too, lol.

Price of Progress: Just as much of a must in competitive T1 as is Munky.

Fireblast: The most dangerous yet coolest finisher for Sligh on the Magic planet.

Pillage: If I could afford it I'd still be playing this card. The sorcery thing and the fact that it's RR, is a little risky, not to mention it's only an added shock if Ankh is out.

Mishra's Factory: Risky play, but truly all these cards are risky plays. 2/2 means it endures longer than my 2/1s.

Wasteland: MUST PLAY. NEVER TAKE OUT. BASIS OF DECK.

Strip Mine: see Wasteland

Mox Ruby: Playing two mountains on turn one sounds fine to me.

Barbarian Ring: WAY too anti-synergetic. Good one for 1.5 (I've been playing BuRn.dec for quite a while)

Mountain: .......................so.... why are we playing with Mountains???

SB
Pyrostatic Pillar: I'll give it a try, just seems like a win-more...

Scald: must play over BM for now.

Tormods Crypt: They poach Dragons, 'nuff sed.

ReB's: bye bye goes tog

Pyrokinesis: only good against scrubby, Where they still play Madness.

Rack and Ruin: MUD killer. Also good against artifacts

Meltdown: fun card, kickass, R+R is an instant though.

*Just my brief opinions*

@Rane: Glad to see you're still with us, thanks for the ever useful input. Let's show 'em we can make a dent in T1 competitive :lol:

@Androstan:

@Feanor: -1 Pop and +1 mancer. Or -1 mountain +1 mancer.

Thanks, I'll try both.

Like I said earlier. You don't need FTKs if youve got 'Mancer and burn...well maybe, guess it depends on your meta.

Shattering Pulse: Yep always better than Shatter. Unfortunately, we play R+R because of damn MUD...I think. I'll update the precious list for now, k?

Peace all

[Gbj]

Hi, i am new to this forum, but i have some questions about the list posted by Androstalone:

Why Grim Lavamancer is better than Cursed Scroll ?
Why 3 Fireblast and only 14 mountains ?
Why give opposing Wasteland 2 targets (mishra's factory) ?
Why Shattering Pulse over Tormod's Crypt ?

I really like Androstalone list, for me is near optimal, but i dislike some choice.

My list is
-1 Fireblast
+1 Price of Progress
-4 Lavamancer
+ 3 Cursed Scroll
+ 1 Black Vise
-2 Mishra
+2 Mountain
-1 Mox
+ 1 Fork

I don't like the sinergy beetween Fireblast and Ankh, but i don't found anything better (i tested Mishra but i don't like it)
Grim Lavamancer is a good idea, but Cursed is colorless damage, more difficult to destroy, and sometimes win games lonely. Grim can be played turn 1 and do more damage early in the game, need to be tested.
Another question, how do you win against a deck like Big O ?
For me the game is unwinnable.

[kirdape3]

Modern Sligh (the deck packing a ton of cheap creatures and a bunch of hate cards) is TnT.

That being said, if you want a REALLY GOOD (tm) sideboard card to combat aggro with, it's Fledgling Dragon.  5/5 firebreathing flier for 2RR means that they have to really work to take it out and the rest of your deck can be control - there's your finisher.

[Androstanolone]

Sligh is sligh and TNT is TNT, not sure what you mean, they're 2 different decks.  Dragon is a nice 4cc creature, don't think we can wing 4cc though.

gbj:  you need to go back and read, these things have been covered, you can PM me if you like.  

*trying to keep the forum from getting any longer*

[Rane]

As Andro said to gbj go back and read.  No more posts reffering to gbj wasting space from here on in till he has read up.  I'm thinking of calling for s system of something like, when someone sees a dead post, type below it -ignore- or something.

Like I said I agree with many of Andro's arguments of the use against certain cards, but that was the list of the 'finalists' for what I consider Ankh Sligh.  In the coming days I will try to norrow it down more.  THey all do have something going for them though...

Charge - This card is just so good against some combo.  Against decks without creatures this seriously does 8-10 dmg for ONE card.  It's insane dmg.  I am still pondering whether it helps enough matchups to warrant an MD or SB slot though... probably not, but I ain't dumping it yet.

Pillage - The only reason this card is still there at sorcery speed is because it does EXACTLY what the perfect card for Ankh Sligh wants to do.  It reads "Destroy any target land and deal two dmg to it's controller OR Destroy any artifact and it cannot be regenrated (Possibly also causing two dmg if you got sol ring or something and they have to drop another land or two)"  It's cc and Speed kill me, but for a card with such perfect text...

Pillar - This card Pwns all.  It will at LEAST be 4-of in my SB.  The question is just whether it deserves to be bumped up to the MD.  Seriously amazing card.  I forget who told me it, but they said "Pillar essentially lowers each players starting life total to 10."  He was wrong though, it lowers it even more.  Any matchup where you would like to half the starting life is one where Pillar is good... and for Sligh that's 98% of matchups... but like I said I'm not sure on MD.

Scroll over Mancer - True Scroll is FAR greater than Mancer as a card, but they serve different purposes.  Mancer WILL make the cut indefinatly, because it is an early 1/1 that can become a serious threat, as soon as the ground game stalls out he can shoot for the head for twice the dmg, he can disrupt Welders and such... He just has so many uses, as well as being a great TD mid-late game.  Scroll is a better card, but it serves a different role.  It is meant to be PURELY a turn 4 and after card, that deals two dmg a turn as a clock.  It can pick of weenies in some matchups, but generally it is a clock, as well as being a artifact compared to a 'fire-able' 1/1.  Just because Lightning Bolt may be a better burn spell than Gorilla Shaman, doesn't mean that you put Bolt's in Keeper...

Factories - I'm really undecided on this one.  This will probably be the hardest decision of all.  THEY ARE GREAT.  It's that simple.  THE ONLY PROBLEM is that Sligh is now affected by Wastes, which were previously 4 dead cards in opponents decks.  Whether they are worth the trade off only a LOT of testing will tell.

Rings - I am one of the biggest advocaters against the use of Rings.  They plain suck.  The fact of the matter is however that sometimes sacking a Mountain for 2 dmg or to kill that ONE goddam blocker stopping your cadets from attacking, is just necessary.  With the life loss in the mirror or against any other aggro, and the outrageously bad synergies it has with other cards it's far fetched, as well as being a wasteland target... BUT there is still that 0.37% chance that I might use it.

[Gbj]

For everyone: i have read the previous post from the beginning.

Now for the decklist:

4   Gorilla Shaman
4   Goblin Cadet
4   Jackal Pup
4              Grim Lavamancer
4   Chain Lightning
4   Lightning Bolt
4   Incinerate
4   Price of Progress
1   Fork
4   Ankh of Mishra
1   Black Vise
1   Lotus Petal (Mox Ruby if you have it)
4   Wasteland
1   Strip mine
16   Mountain
   Sideboad:
4   Pyrostatic Pillar
3   Crash
1   Shattering Pulse
3   Null Rod
4   Tormod's Crypt

I have cut Cursed and Fireblast to make room for Grim Lavamancer.

I play Crash for Rack and Ruin because i can cast it turn 1 or 2, so if i am in a Sphere Lock i can break it. Plus can be sided against the mirror match (opposing Scroll) or against Nether Void / Black Control (with Chalice / Masticore / Powder Keg ).

Tormod's Crypt is so useful in today meta, i can't think play without it.

4 Price of Progress for me is a must, you don't  want lose to Keeper with Ankh Sligh, and going with Fireblast instead PoP and Black Vise is a bit random for me.

I miss Scald in side, that i think is a great card, because i think control match is already fine for this build. I can swap Incinerate for Pillar and i get the same result with Scald (almost).

The problem with Ankh Sligh nowdays is aggro. We are so focused to beat Dragon and Control (Hulk, Keeper, UR phidian, LandStill, ecc...) that we start lose to new rising aggro decks (Madness, Osawa Stompy, even RG Beatz is a hard match with Call of The Herd, Hidden Gibbon, Troll Ascetic, Cursed Scroll, ecc...)

I would discuss about winning against aggro. How it is your solution ?

[Fëanor]

Decklists so far have been designed not too much with aggro in mind, but as Andro said before it's time to start looking into the future at O-Stompy etc. So I guess in answer to your question Gbj, This would be my strategy.

Since the deck is not anti-aggro built, I'd spend time burning creatures. My meta is not so litered with trolls quite yet, and I'm not sure where they are, but if they happen to fine their way, well, i dont know if red has an answer except maybe Pyroclasm. Sure burning creatures slows down the game a lot, but once the onslaught is over, my 2/1s can start chunking life down. With 'Mancers (Scrolls) it's just easier to get rid of the real annoying beefs. I've beaten some aggro before with this deck and it's actually not that hard. We dont fear TnT as much, just nouveau beatstik.
And what does aggro fear in Ankh Sligh? Truthfully, Ankh. If they have enough land, then they fear Pillar. Either way, it's two damage.  
Nevertheless, blanet kill hasn't been a dry place for red ever since Earthquake and Jolkulhaups, so technically we could throw in pyrokinesis whenever stompy looks prominent. What I've been seeing in my area is MUD, Keeper, all sorts of Still's and Stax's, Gay, and Dragon. I'm sure O is just waiting to strike but why be prepared for something that might be non-existant? You can't prepare for everything unfortunately, and making mono-red makes it even harder. Just my philosiphy.

I think having 'Mancers in really helps get damage through. Especially if your opponent has gone and been a dick and played little pesky river boa's or blockers, You'll want the 'Mancer to 1) kill the little things or 2) kill the bastard that played them. You may notice that most of this discussion has fallen off the topic of general Ankh stategy, but the point is that we hope to have built a pretty strong Ankh lock to begin with and it no longer needs our attention. From the very beginning, this deck won a tourney just four hours after i decided to build it (yes yes it was scrubby ). No one should deny the power of Ankh Sligh, all we need to do is fine tune it, untill its ready for anything. That may clear some perceptions up. I'm agreeing with Rane. If something isn't worth the discussion, we'll just ignore it and make use of the wonderful PM service we have.

@Rane: Argh, Pillage...yeh it's a great card, but we use to use it. as i recall all we dropped it for was the fact that it was RR and its was 3cc. With 16 red sources might it be safer to start retesting??? Cause the card just ownz

Peace

[Gbj]

@Rane: Argh, Pillage...yeh it's a great card, but we use to use it. as i recall all we dropped it for was the fact that it was RR and its was 3cc. With 16 red sources might it be safer to start retesting??? Cause the card just ownz

I have tested Pillage in past, but it seemed too slow. The problem for me is not the RR but the casting cost of 3. Destroy a land or artifact is not a big play, because on turn 3 you want eot play burn and turn 4 burn more to death !
At least in this build...
If Ankh Sligh can't deal with aggro and can beat only control with good percentage (combo is a nightmare) , the conclusion is that it is not a viable deck   .

[Androstanolone]

Yes, we now have our final ankh sligh list to pick from, I'd say it's pretty comprehensive.  The biggest question right now is pyrostatic pillar, MD?  What would we cut out for it?  I can't MD it simply because I don't know what I could replace, pillar is a less versatile card.  The 2cc spells are ankh of mishra, incinerate, and price of progress.  Ankh and price simply cannot be cut, incinerate is the slowest burn in the deck but it has the utility of clearing creatures out of the way.  I don't think incinerate can be cut either, I think if we replace incinerate with pillar MD we start leaning torwards being more of a burn deck than sligh.  Pillar will come in a lot, but MDing it would weaken an already weak matchup, TNT, some TNT's have pillar in the main O_O.  Clearly they have the potential to abuse it more (though IMO tangle wire goes better... but that's a different thread).  I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions on pillar, as I think almost all the other cards on the list are understood inasfar as why you would or wouldn't pick them according to your style, goals, and metagame.  



- androstan

[Gbj]

I think we cannot maindeck it without change the core of the deck. So after tweaking for a while we have Slax.
Pyrostatic for me is relegated to side.

[Lyhrrus]

If Ankh Sligh can't deal with aggro and can beat only control with good percentage (combo is a nightmare) , the conclusion is that it is not a viable deck.

Ankh Sligh is no longer a Tier 1 deck in the current meta.  We discuss and play it because we have fun doing so, or we're playing in scrubby metas.  If you want a budget deck that's viable, play Gay/r or Fish or something.

The only way to deal with Troll Ascetic is in Darksteel, which isn't legal yet.  Flamebreak  (RRR, ugh, 3 damage to all non-flyers and players, can't regenerate) is a pyroclasm/disintegrate.  Unfortunately it's at sorcery speed, and clears out your own board as well.

Sligh cannot deal with fat effectively.  We must start chucking 2 burn spells for their 1 creature, never any good.

Now on an aside, we could try and make a pillar Sligh, running FTK and such against new fat, but that means we weaken our grip against control, and we have to increase our mana base.

[Toad]

The discussion is pretty good.
This is Open Forum material.

Moved

[Gbj]

Ankh Sligh is no longer a Tier 1 deck in the current meta.  We discuss and play it because we have fun doing so, or we're playing in scrubby metas.  If you want a budget deck that's viable, play Gay/r or Fish or something.

I agree with you, but i love the archetype and i hope to break it with this thread. Hey, but Ankh Sligh beat Gay/r or Fish  .

Now on an aside, we could try and make a pillar Sligh, running FTK and such against new fat, but that means we weaken our grip against control, and we have to increase our mana base.

Someone did it and created Slax (i am repeating). Replace FTK with Juggernaut, add acceleration and you have it.
The problem is that Slax has the same weakness of Ankh Sligh: it does bad against modern aggro decks (even Ankh Sligh   ). But it eat alive Combo and Control (only the powered build).

[KrauserKrauser]

I agree with you, but i love the archetype and i hope to break it with this thread. Hey, but Ankh Sligh beat Gay/r or Fish  .

While Sligh might have a slightly favorable match up against Gay/r.  Gay/r tends to have better match ups against combo and control.  Something about that whole sacrificing some of that aggro aspect to gain control.

Though as far as straight out aggro.  I think Big O has the edge with its fatties that come out for cheap.

[Fëanor]

Yo, It's Tiki,

I don't have much time, being in a class, but for those who are new to this thread (as it has been moved) please read all of the history, including the crappy reference page from my website www.tyler.tiki.com

I only say this because recently we've come to many posts that have no education on the history of this deck. If it's too much to read (and I greatly understand and empathize with you on it) then pleasew don't post unless in response to something that has been recently discussed.

Peace

[Androstanolone]

Troll ascetic is one card, there's no way we can afford 4 SB slots dedicated solely to one card.  Sure troll's another pain in the neck, basically the only solution I've come up with is to swing into him and just win first.  In any event, there is no solution to ascetic that has enough application elsewhere to warrant a spot.  Green sucked for a long time in magic, now it's making a comeback, it's about time green got a really *good* creature.  Red just hasn't gotten a really *good* burn or a new *good* weenie for a while.  Perhaps some new sligh additions will come when onslaught rotates out of type 2, as then red will lose a lot of T2 power without piledriver, skirk prospector, goblin sledder, and goblin sharpshooter, so wizards will be pressed to fill the gap.  I think it's obvious that red was low on the priority list when they were printing darksteel, particularly so with the printing of crazed goblin, humility makes that card better lol.  Unless somebody comes up with some really good tech, I'm at a loss as to how to fill the O stompy gap, besides just "remove target opponent" as fast as possible.

[Rane]

Yeh Andro beat me to it, you can't worry about just one card.  That's like saying what if I run into a deck with Silver Knights?  The way I play is burn the early blockers to let my critters through, then as soon as the groung game stalls out take burn to the head.  This is where Pillar and Ankh really shine.  Normal Sligh and other decks might not have got enough dmg through early to be able to finish the job with burn, but with Ankh and/or Pillar they can normally finish the job themselves let alone when suported by burn.  The trick is just knowing when to forget about the ground game.  It depends on the deck you're versing but with pratice you will learn when it becomes futile to burn blockers.

Pillar is quite misleading, it appears like card disadvantage just to deal 10 dmg to each player, but in testing it acts much more like a clock.  When they get down to about 8 hp, they won't be casting spells.  At all.  When coupled with Scroll it's just deadly, operating much like a landstill lock, that you can break at any time for that Bolt+Blast.  With Scroll+Ankh+Pillar out that's Slighes entire mid-late game.

Pillage is a bit expensive but for it's versatility it's still a contender.

The obvious problem is the room.  I have NO idea how we are going to fit this stuff in.  Juts lots of playtesting and systematic cutting of cards, one by one.

[Androstanolone]

So, then, ensnaring bridge seems to be the only viable, castable answer to fat aggro.  How much of a boost is it?  It can easily stall the game until you draw your burn.  What does everyone say?  It's the only answer I can think of, though I h8 it because it's a control card and not proactive, like FTK and such.



- Androstanolone

[Fëanor]

@Androstan: Bridge would just ruin aggro, but it is an artifact. All decks these days have answers for art. The bridge would be a control element, but it has the power to keep your opponent from winning, how is that not pro-actice control? :lol: I played bridge SB in my elfball and it ruled. but i had the mana in the deck. Pillar, now that more discussion has developed, seems like a great play against aggro though. Think how many spells the have to play to start beating you down, even Big-O.

@Rane:

The obvious problem is the room. I have NO idea how we are going to fit this stuff in. Juts lots of playtesting and systematic cutting of cards, one by one.

Yep, the hardest part of building a deck...ready guys?

Pillage is unbelieveably good, no one can deny, against MUD it blows, plus it's 3cc and RR, so i think despite its usefulness and its coolness factor, it's relatively a dangerous play and should be avoided here.

i gotta go,  but ill comment on more later, thanks guys, we're in the Open forum now

Peace

[Rane]

What Andro means is that Bridge doesn't win the game by itself, it is a pure control card.  For this reason I will never run Bridge or Blood Moon or Null Rod in Sligh UNLESS it is COMPLETELY needed.  Bridge helps nowhere near enough matchups at the moment to help.  As for TnT, the matchup isn't THAT bad.  RnR helps alot, and Pillage is the Bomb.  As for MUD that welder seriously isn't going to ever activate.  Combine that with Meltdown and/or RnR = gg.