erm, yeah.  I get what you're saying, but I also feel like that might be a tad over-simplistic.  Most dedicated Storm decks want to go off on turn 1-2 and have the same game plan for playing through counters.  Maybe what I'm asking for is some contrast.  How would you play this differently than, say, GrimLong, Meandeck-SX, or ANT?

Wow.  Again, I am fascinated.  This is definitely NOT a TPS variant.  If the success of the deck continues, please consider writing a mini-primer!

I just noticed that there's no Mind's Desire or Time Walk in the list.  Can that be right?!?

Wow.  Thanks man!  Along with those, I imagine that it's safe to board out 1 Night's Whisper, 1 LED and that some number of mana sources are coming out for other mana sources...

@John Knight:
This is so fcugink BUSTED!!  How do you side in fifteen cards against Shop?!?!  This looks unbelievably good.  Seriously dude, what do you side out?

What is the ideal use of red boardwipes* in competitive, multiplayer edh?  I feel like they're too good to ignore.  Jhoira is probably the most common example of a deck that uses these.  Jhoira also has no subterfuge whatsoever - people know before the highroll what you're playing and how you plan to win.   Slobad decks have Goblin Welder and Kuldotha Forgemaster and options for a soft lock via overlapping combinations of Worldslayer, Darksteel Forge, Nevinyrral's Disk, Mycosynth Lattice, KSG, and Gorilla Shaman.  I don't have an optimal Slobad decklist (I could use some help if anyone has a good build for this), but I feel that there are a lot of cards that make up the core with less options for customization as compared with most other decks.  Also playing Maelstrom Wanderer seems plausible, that way you could get all of the cheaty U/G options for drawing, mana ramp and infinite combos, but with a way to prevent everyone else from achieving the same thing ...and I would say that's my point.  Red resets are a reverse time walk for the entire board, and are a genuine pain in the ass for all combo decks.  Is there something potentially broken to be found here? Has anyone had convergant results and experience with this?


...in the meantime, here's a fun deck on this theme:

0.   Urabrask, the Hidden
1.   Solemn Simulacrum
2.   Burnished Hart
3.   Hellkite Tyrant ...Furnace Dragon
4.   Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
5.   Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
6.   Artisan of Kozilek
7.   It That Betrays
8.   Zealous Conscripts
9.   Conquering Manticore
10.   Molten Primordial
11.   Duplicant
12.   Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
13.   Wurmcoil Engine
14.   Myr Retriever
15.   Junk Diver
16.   Knollspine Dragon
17.   Hoarding Dragon
18.   Flowstone Overseer
19.   Hateflayer

20.   Utvara Hellkite
21.   Hoar-Smelter Dragon
22.   Hellkite Charger
23.   Flameblast Dragon
24.   Steel Hellkite
25.   Moonveil Dragon
26.   Pilgrim's Eye

27.   Aggravated Assault
28.   Incendiary Command
29.   Wild Ricochey
30.   Armillary Sphere
31.   Mass Mutiny

32.   Apocalypse
33.   Decree of Annihilation
34.   Devastation
35.   Jokulhaups
36.   Obliterate
37.   Trinisphere
38.   Worldslayer

39.   Burning Wish
40.   Chaos Warp
41.   Crucible of Worlds
42.   Darksteel Plate
43.   Expedition Map
44.   Insurrection
45.   Karn Liberated
46.   Koth of the Hammer
47.   Memory Jar
48.   Pithing Needle
49.   Sensei’s Divining Top
50.   Stranglehold

51.   Basalt Monolith
52.   Everflowing Chalice
53.   Grim Monolith
54.   Mana Crypt
55.   Mana Vault
56.   Mind Stone
57.   Sol Ring
58.   Thran Dynamo
59.   Voltaic Key
60.   Worn Powerstone

61.   Ancient Tomb
62.   Buried Ruin
63.   Petrified Field
64.   Strip Mine
65.   Thawing Glaciers
66.   Vesuva
67.   Wasteland
68.   Forgotten Cave
69.   Darksteel Citadel
70.   Great Furnace
71.   Arid Mesa
72.   Bloodstained Mire
73.   Evolving Wilds
74.   Mountain Valley
75.   Rocky Tarpit
76.   Scalding Tarn
77.   Terramorphic Expanse
78.   Wooded Foothills
79.   Mountain
80.   Mountain
81.   Mountain
82.   Mountain
83.   Mountain
84.   Mountain
85.   Mountain
86.   Mountain
87.   Mountain
88.   Mountain
89.   Mountain
90.   Mountain
91.   Mountain
92.   Mountain
93.   Mountain
94.   Mountain
95.   Mountain
96.   Mountain
97.   Mountain
98.   Mountain
99.   Mountain






* That is Jokulhaups, Obliterate, Decree of Annihilation.  There are others depending on what the rest of the deck does.  Apocalypse can be good, as well.  

Talrand, even with minor testing, seems like a card that causes blow outs on his own.  What role, if any, does Talrand, Sky Summoner play in RUG-Delver?  Does his inclusion fundamentally change how the deck works?

I realize that I'm necro-ing an old thread, but I'm thinking about playing LabMan Oath ...Memory Jar?? Can that possibly be correct?  How do you use it in a deck with no rituals AND no Tinker?

With the aforementioned in mind, I'm testing a reverse transformation sideboard, as it were. I still believe that Talrand gets around Null Rod, Stony Silence, Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, and has the ability to turn shit to gold.  Does it get around Phyrexian Metamorph or Swords to Plowshares??  No, but you obviously make a bunch of drake tokens before the stack resolves.


3 Talrand, Sky Summoner

4 Dark Ritual
4 Force of Will
4 Night's Whisper

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Tendrils of Agony

Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Demonic Tutor
Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal
Memory Jar
Merchant Scroll
Mind's Desire
Mystical Tutor
Necropotence
Ponder
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

Black Lotus
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Sol Ring
Tolarian Academy

1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
1 Underground Sea

SB: 4 Duress
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Yixlid Jailer

What I like about this card is the ability to turn irrelevant junk into real threats.  Flusterstorm and Misstep become 2/2 drakes against MUD, artifact hate becomes 2/2 tokens against control and fish.  The dead cards that you're forced to run to survive the metagame is no longer a serious issue..

My nipples are hard 

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/24086_Five_Useful_Instances_Of_True_Versus_Useful.html

Mike Flores gives five really great points of strategy that can be applied to life in general and Magic: the Gathering if you feel inclined.  Without re-posting much from a premuim article, one of his points is "2. Never play The Rock ...Master Sun explained to me that a great general avoids long, protracted conflicts".

How does Standstill avoid the pitfalls of Rock decks?  Why is it ok to play a deck seeks to make the game as long as possible??

This looks like the perfect field for goblins (surely a sign that the meta is progressing in the right direction).  Where's James Lee when you need him?!?!

Thank you kind sir!!! 

*cough* Lists please *cough*

Congratulations to a true gentleman in our game - Raf Forino!

I don't miss Memory Jar, or any draw7's for that matter.  There are a number of good things to say about Jar in that it gives you an alternate line of play with Tinker, you can often cast it off double Dark Ritual, and is unaffected by Lodestone Golem.  There are a number of games where it sits in my hand while I wish it was something else, it fizzles frequently, and is awful against blue decks.  I'm cutting it for now, but it can easily go back in later.

Night's Whisper is the best thing to happen to the Storm vs. MUD match in at least the past year.  Having a black card that gives you +1 card advantage means that it is awesome both pre- and mid-combo.  It's even better here than in 4c Gush ("Black Magic") because you can safely cast it and then pass turn one with a basic swamp.  I wouldn't cut Night's Whisper for anything until Shops start to decline ...which is not to say you couldn't run BOTH Night's Whisper AND Preordain.

...oh and basic lands are tech (derf!)

There are three ways to win the Storm vs. MUD match.  This now seems like a generous slice of "duH", but I wish what I'm about to say could've been spelled out for me months ago.

1) Force their turn-one play, go nutz.  This obviously requires the god hand.

2) Tinker, which only works if you have a sick tell or the ability to play around Phyrexian Metamorph and Tangle Wire.

3) Realize that even against Shop Aggro, the worst thing that they can put you on is a four-turn clock.  That gives you a significant amount of time to assemble Hurkyl's Recall and the combo.  Night's Whisper and extra bounce spells go a long way with providing this option.

...to that end, here's what I'm currently testing:


4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Night’s Whisper

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Rebuild
1 Tendrils of Agony

Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Demonic Tutor
Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal
Memory Jar
Merchant Scroll
Mind’s Desire
Mystical Tutor
Necropotence
Ponder
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth’s Bargain
Yawgmoth’s Will

Black Lotus
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Sol Ring
Tolarian Academy

3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
1 Underground Sea

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Hurkyl’s Recall
SB: 4 Teferi’s Realm
SB: 3 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Planar Void
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction, Extirpate
SB: 1 Perish, Nature’s Ruin

Congratulations to North Jersey's favorite son, AC, for a fantiastic return to the vintage scene!!

My vote is for "Cagebreaker OATH".

Night's Whisper is the Trooof!  I've been inserting it everywhere with pleasing results.  Great innovation!!!

@Smmenen: Could you say a few words about the disruption package?  It seems like you get to resolve whatever, whenever you want.  Was there any point where you felt like it was overkill?  Thanks!

I win at fail!!!!

Has anybody have experience with the new-ish AK-Tendrils lists?  Does anybody have any commentary on how they would work in the context of a US metagame?  Drawing seven cards in a turn, playing five basic islands, multiple bounce spells and Tendrils see seems like fun times against MUD...

I think there's real potential here.  Snapcaster seems more abuse-able here than in any existing list, e.g. Bobcaster Control, Standstill, etc.  Gush and Gush-based combo control decks seem to be slowly going away.  The format seems to be populated with slower decks and looser draw engines.  Is it advantageous to dust off some previously out-moded draw engines, like AK??

For Reference:

Yes ...that's the idea but it's also more complicated than that.  I think Pikula realizes how complicated it is and I can't wait for him to expand upon this idea.  Mana-intensive black spells tend to have a relationship with the number and type of "rituals" in a deck, Tinker and Tolarian Academy get better or worse with the number of playable artifacts, Force of Will needs a certain amount of blue cards ...all of these form a symbiosis and a delacate balance.  More importantly they do this simultaneously in the same deck and seemingly different and seperate phenomina may or may not react with each other.  There are slight differences to how all of this comes together in either a storm deck or a control deck ..either way I'm excited about what comes out!!

The very same thing could be said for storm decks ...a good example of this would be how draw7's have a greater chance for fizzle in a slower deck like Bob-Tendrils.

It needs to be done.  This is arguably the next level of deck building.  First is evaluating card value in a vacuum, next is in the context of a metagame (SWOT style), the succession would be synergistic relationships between otherwise strong cards in the same deck.

Has anyone tested Plaguebearer as a possible answer to 'goyf?

If you're driving from Jersey, let me know! I'm not above bribery

I hate not driving. This event mise well be on the moon.