My question is how does this deck win? Ob Nixilis with fetches and Fastbond?

Have you thought about going the beatdown route instead?
Tarmogoyfs or perhaps the Dark Depths combo? Tombstalkers might be good if you run some Sensei's Divining Top for Confidant.

Have you considered using a singleton Dryad Arbor in here?

Reason being that it's a fetch-able forest which is clampable.
Fetch - Return Ghast
Clamp Ghast
Crack Fetch for Dryad - Return Ghast
Clamp Ghast, Clamp  Dryad

That's a 6 card draw for  .

I'll admit I'm a bit skeptical about Slaughter Pact. kobefan, how many do you run in your side? I'd like to give it a try and see what its like.

The more you guys talk about red, the more convinced I am that its the right move due to the side.
How many Volcanics are the right number to support the 4th colour?

Also, is it necessary to run Time Walk just because we run Warrens? Is Warrens really a good idea if your meta is filled with cards that tap sideways (a la Dryads, Togs, Fish Critters)?

Wouldn't it just suck if your opponent dropped a Magus after you played this?


Point made. I'll mess around a little with red when I have the time.

Probably. I realize you said your sideboard is outdated, but what red sideboard cards do you recommend? I know you mentioned Pyroclasm, but I usally play Massacre instead. Is there any reason you prefer Pyroclasm?

@Purplehat:
I'm actually not running Empty. I might give it a shot in Tendrils #2's slot.

The list I played with yesterday:

// Lands
    1 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Flooded Strand
    1 Tolarian Academy
    3 Underground Sea

// Spells
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Imperial Seal
    2 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Duress
    3 Dark Ritual
    1 Fastbond
    1 Regrowth
    4 Merchant Scroll
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gush
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Chain of Vapor
    4 Force of Will
    1 Tinker
    1 Memory Jar

In all honesty, I don't know why I kept Mana Vault. I used to run some expensive bombs in an earlier version and it just stayed there. I guess it could go out for a Volc in order to support Wheel and Empty. Another thing is that 3 Rituals really *are* excessive. I was happy to see them when I was playing Y.Will, but other than that, they just sat in my hand mocking me.

I played a few games yesterday vs GAT and went 4-1.
Admittedly, I won 2-3 games off the back of Memory Jar.
Throughout the games I seldom found myself wanting a Draw7 to tutor for to refill my hand. I seldom felt this need, but it was there. I think playing with one Timetwister will be sufficient. I have no intention to dip into red for Wheel as yet.

I'll post a list later on 

Thanks!
Note that I didn't say you mana burn in response to Hidetsugu's Second Rite, but rather mana burn yourself when you're at exactly 10, however.
 

You must have been playing this against some pretty bad players, in order to be getting kills with this. A player can just crack a fetchland in response to this. Also, after you kill a player with it, achieving an extremely random kill, a player can just mana burn himself when he's at exactly 10 life.

Personally I play with 13 lands, 6 of which are fetchies and 1 of which is Academy. I don't believe that you can afford to play less lands than that. However, I also run 9 Artifacts and 3 Dark Rituals.

@Liam-K : I didn't find any trouble casting Bargain, but I probably run a lot more mana sources than you. I will try out Timetwister in the place of Bargain.

Not many people seem to be interested in this type of deck, but what do people think of Twister, Gifts and some other bomb?

Aside from fetching tutors, Gifts can also fetch out mana (Lotus, Mox, Crypt, Petal for example), effectively raises your storm count by 3, and can be tutored with Merchant Scroll. You've said yourself that Windfall is a bit iffy.

Before claiming that you're confident that it doesn't fit, you should test it a few games. I guarantee you won't be disappointed.

• FoF ... you might be right. I'll still give it a try.
• Future Sight does have a very prohibitive mana cost. I'm aware. However its game breaking if it resolves.
• Bargain ... not sure. I never had the situation you're speaking of, because I draw cards 1 by 1, and casting tutors for what I need. I definitely need to test it more though.

All in all, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of running Draw7s. I've been bitten by my opponent drawing into Duresses and Forces before, so I'd advocate something that is not quite as symmetrical. I do agree on the easy mana costs though, and I suppose that is a very good justification for using them.

Is running Draw7s really the optimal solution, when at the cost of 2c you are getting a symmetric effect? Especially when using junk like Windfall. The potential of giving your opponent an excellent hand, or worse, a control-heavy hand is quite great.

Wouldn't running a few bombs in the place of Draw7s be a more optimal solution? For example, Gifts, FoF, Future Sight, Y.Bargain (and a 3rd Ritual).

I have personally been testing Y.Bargain, Gifts and Future Sight, though Future Sight's prohibitive mana cost is giving cause for seeking alternatives, such as FoF. However, Future Sight consistently allows for dropping moxen, rituals and eventually going off, whereas FoF will yield you 2-3 cards.

Fundamentally, it is broken. A 0-costed counterspell is broken. However to say that it has no drawbacks, is folly.

In addition to Namingway's example, we can add:

• Stifle
• Trickbind
• Vialed-in True Believer

Chalice of the Void, is commonly played, and it counters Pact of Negation.
Pact of Negation is not synergistic with Empty the Warrens.

Not saying it won't be played, just stating the facts.

@brianpk:



Believe it. 

This should be changed from "When ~this~ comes into play" to "As ~this~ comes into play".

Chalice set at 0 will counter the Lotus Bloom.
The lack of a mana cost will prohibit you from playing it, however it does not change its converted mana cost, which is 0.

My apologies. What I meant to say was that Dovescape wouldn't trigger in the first place since Jotun Grunt is a creature and Dovescape triggers on noncreature spells.

Dovescape wouldn't counter his Jotun Grunt, so he wouldn't get any Bird tokens.

Potentially busted with:

Arcanis, the Omnipotent
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Elvish Aberration
Disruptive Pitmage / Disruptive Student...etc

That may be the obvious answer to you, but in actuality, the obvious answer is because the "power cards of yore" are design MISTAKES. "What the fuck were we smoking?" kind of mistakes. So reprints, as well as cards based on that kind of power scale are most probably out of the question.

At first perhaps, but after a few dredges and returning lands to your hand, with an Exploration out, you'll be making plenty of mana. Btw I'm speaking of the Cycle 2 cycle not the coloured cycling ones.

The reason I'd advise using the Loam engine is that you shouldn't completely rely on Horn of Greed. True its a 4-of but you are not guaranteed to:

a) Draw it
b) Resolve it

So an alternative is gravy, drawing you more cards allowing you to draw into your Horn of Greed for one thing.

How about Life from the Loam + Cycling lands?

Updated the wording to reflect the Chain of X style. Rather than pay 5 life, I changed it to RFGing a card from their hand.

I already addressed this issue. I do not want a triggered or activated ability because I don't want it Stifled or Trickbinded. I am aware that the chances of that happening are slim to none, but I don't want to leave that option open.


The problem with the life bid tutor is that your opponent is always at the disadvantage. You can see this in the example I provided in the first post.


Well there have been previous Demonic Tutor rehashes which look something like : You and target opponent {do a demonic}. This would be the same with the exception of your opponent having to pay 5 life for it.

This means a lot. Not only do you get to the search for your card, but your opponent just put himself into closer Tendrils range in combo.

That is a very good point. Wording updated.

Because of Stifle / Trickbind. This is the same reason I didn't make it say "When you play {this} etc etc"

Limiting the casting to once means that your opponent gains control of it permanently and you, the player, do not have the opportunity to pay 5 life to get it back. I'm not sure if that works, but I think it does.

Fixed the wording. Thank you.

Errr....quite frankly this is terrible. Compare this to say Flesh Reaver.

A 2/1 for 2 mana which makes you lose life everytime it deals damage and has an incredibly overcosted ability is not really something that's good for Black Aggro.

Current wording:

Treacherous Tutor 1
Sorcery

Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
Then any opponent may remove a card in their hand from the game. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell.