I have never personally used vice in an aggro deck, but that sounds like it could be a very irritating build to play against. I mainly used Vise in two different flavours of deck in the past(*sniff* the good ole days). One deck was Similar to Keeper, but Vise was the win condition. It was basically Drains, FoWs, Draw7s and Brainstorm with a bunch of silver bullets to do random things. The other was a deck streamlined to race the opponent, it had no protection at all and when it worked, oh boy did it work. Basically, between the vises and howling mines and draw 7s, things got silly quickly and a stormseeker usually finished things off, or cards fed into a stormbind. Occasionally I would duck under a Nether Void and just watch my opponent frustratedly ditch cards at the end of his turn while the Vise slowly crushed him. No other card in the history of magic has been more fun to play with than Vise for me, I would love to see it come off the restricted list.

This is a fantastic card. I used to play this card almost exclusively - i had a black vise deck for 7 or 8 years, which finally fell apart with Vise's restriction. Here's the problem, Vise is only good as a four-of. You can't just throw it in a deck, because it doesn't really contribute synergy - its an afterthought. Yes, tinker and thirst both combo with it, and yes you can weld it in and out, but there are a lot of other artifacts that would be more useful. Vise is a horrible card to see midgame, as the opponent almost never have a full mitt, and if they do, they can probably drop it down relatively easily. Vise needs to hit the table 1st turn and be supported with control the next turn. If Vise is not the focal point of the deck (which it cant be since they neutered it), its just a card that at best may do a few points of damage.

Honestly, mid-game, you're better off dropping and ankh of mishra and then stripping/wasteing/armaggedoning. that'll net you more damage and hurt your opponent much more, though i dont really recommend it as far too much can go wrong that will hurt you as well.

Ok, but then you're talking about a turn 2 empty mitt. If you're playing Gemstone, ditching a card to do it, playing an island to get UU, having a drain in your hand, AND pitching something to FoW in addition FoW itself, that's a whole lot of cards that you're committing just to stop your opponent from doing a couple things, and then you're in topdeck mode.


yeah...what he said.

But you have to be on the draw. So you have UU 1st turn, but not to counter anything your opponent does on THEIR first turn that may spell disaster for you. I think its drawbacks are too much. The best you could do with it would be to have it in play, toss and ESG and mana leak, but then you're talking 4 cards to stop 1 from being cast. Again, too much going the wrong way for this card.

I like the Pyrostatic Pillars as well, but I would keep them more to an UbaStax build. They seem to fit in more nicely there than in traditional Stax.

Nice deck Smmenen, but yeah, I agree that DSC is going to be a problem for you since your only removal tool is balance. maybe you could run Maze of Ith, perhaps even SB it in for  CoB or Gemstone?

Also, I like the use of In the Eye of Chaos. This is a card I used to love back in the day in my U/B prison deck which ran In the Eye, Nether Void, Stasis, Winter Orb and Black Vise to win. I think its a great card, but its use may be too narrow, despite the prevalence of combo-based decks. I fear its one of those cards that sits in your hand turn after turn because the time is not right to play it yet. To me, a card like that is a dead card, because by the time the time is 'right' you probably already have a soft, if not hard-lock on the table. Obviously, I'm sure you've tested it before you posted, but that's just what my gut seems to say.

What is the possibility of running Tangle Wire without Welders? Once you have established dominance on the board via Stack, tapping their remaining permanents is essentially a Time Walk. So what if you can't weld them in and out?

Have you tested how this deck plays in the mirror? Or how it plays against Uba?

Hahaha...that's not exactly a selling point.

Regarding tourny play, no, I don't currently play any in the GTA. I used to play several years ago, in the late 90's, but I was on a Magic hiatus for a few years. I'm getting back into the swing of things now and I'm working on a rogue deck to pilot at the vintage tourny on April 29th.

Hi everyone. I'm going to be moving to Peterborough, Ontario in September to go to school at Trent University. Does anyone on this forum live in Peterborough or go to Trent? Are there any gaming stores there? I can't imagine not playing Magic for a year! Help me out!

Thanks. I figured it was something along those lines.

How do cards like Zur's wierding and Glasses of urza affect cards like Hypnotic specter and Hymn to Tourach? I assume with Zur, you just turn the hand face down and shuffle it a little before letting the player pick a card at random, but for the Glasses, can a player cast Hymn, then tap Glasses in response to it to be able to see what card they are picking 'at random'?

Not that anyone plays Glasses, but I'm curious anyway 

If DSC is your primary concern, and it might be considering the dwindling numbers of fish lists, than you could always run chainer's edict. I know it costs more than STP, but it's just as useful. And eliminating white, which only seems to exist in your list because of STP, opens up more disruption slots, counter slots or bounce slots. I also think Darkblast is overrated. It's only 'good' due to the proliferation of powerful 1/1s, but in all honesty, DSC is a much more immediate threat than mox monkeys and welders. DSC simply makes you have to come up with an answer ASAP: anything 1/1 just makes you think of what lies ahead...which is usually DSC.

Haha. You know, I made the same mistake when Chalice of the Void first came out and I thought it was the greatest card ever printed. I'm glad someone pointed this out to me here rather than at a tourny or somewhere more embarassing (though I feel like quite the fool already, the April Fool, as it were).

As for why I need to get rid of Juzam: like I said, my particular meta is more creature-oriented. Suicide is still around, old school WW is still being played. Even the top-tier decks like Oath and Gifts are a little different. People just like to beatdown with big critters up here, I guess.



Have we mentioned Recoup yet? It's cc is on par with any decent tutor and it allows you to replay Tinker and Timewalk. That alone is pretty nifty. The drawbacks are: 1) obviously, what you need has to be in your graveyard. 2) the card you replay is RFG. The first one isn't too much of a problem, especially is you are looking for an answer to early-Tinker disasters. The second one is problematic, because if you don't do it right this time, you're looking at having to hardcast DSC. It also makes for less Yawg Will goodies. I would run a Regrowth and a Recoup and be content with the graveyard recursion. Any more than that is wasted slots.

I completely agree with you regarding engineered explosives. My only problem with it is once it resolves and you fire it off, there are likely very few, if any artifacts left for you to sac to tinker. My meta is fairly creature heavy, with a lot of classic creatures such as Serendib and Juzam. If i have to engineer a solution for Juzam, I'm losing every artifact except Memory Jar (if I've already tinkered into it, in which case tinkering into DSC is going to be even more of a pain.) Long story short, as much as I like Engineered Explosives, sometimes there are as much a handicap as they are a solution. I've been considering adding a maindeck Icy, since I find I keep firing off Explosions for 3, but I'm concerned that will be a wasted spot and slow the deck down too much.

hey, thanks guys for the answers. the deck idea i had in mind did not have any counters in it, just some bounce and the windfalls for blue. i guess thats not going to work out as well as i had thought. its a good thing i didnt actually spend the time putting it together. is there a good resource available for reading up on these technicalities? a local shop is putting together a standard tourney with a mox pearl that i want to win, but i dont want some 14 year old kid pointing out that my brilliant play is completely illegal and non-sensical. 

I'm a little unfamiliar with how things go on the stack, I haven't played competitive magic since 1997, so this stack business is new to me. Having said that: can I cast windfall, let it resolve and then in response draw a bunch of card's via yawg barg in order to make my opponent draw enough cards to kill him with underworld dreams on the table? My concern is that I don't want to cripple myself only to have the spell countered. What is the timing here? Do I have to respond with Yawg Barg before my opponent has a chance to respond or can I wait until they let the spell resolve before I respond?

what i meant is that you can opt to take the damage, as many Suicide Black players do, and use the mana to complete your control of the board, at which point you can either find a way to get rid of the ogress or simply pay the 2. This is really no different that Necropotence or Dark Confidant. Whereas those let you find cards that will get you an advantage, the Ogress is actually advancing your game by beating down for 3 starting turn one. I guess at this point the debate arises as to what is better, card-advantage or life-advantage, but realistically, a deck playing the Ogress or other similar creatures probably is not going to have too many broken spells that it needs to find, more likely, you'll be top-decking a threat every turn.


Again, I was thinking specifically of Suicide or other mono-black decks, but yeah, i see your point.

as useful as direct damage can be, i think i would go this way:
-2 chain lightning
+2 giant growth (4 total)

bloodlust is something else i would consider. first of all, it helps you kill quicker. second, you can bolt the unboltable by bloodlusting them first to give them the +4/-4. maybe 3 giant growth and 2 bloodlust and pull one of the fireblasts and the two chain lightnings?

I'm not such a big fan of the stone throwers. other than killing savannah lions, they don't do too much. Oubliette, though, is one I used to play often and had totally forgotten about. Props for mentioning it, though i'll have to pretend i didnt hear you putting down my Ogress

I just recently unearthed a RB deck that i thought i had lost, full of Fumaroles, royal assassins and Lim Dul's Paladin for the win! Damn, i used to love that guy! ok, so he was total lightning bolt bait, but a 6/6 trampler for 4 mana?!?! cmon!!!

which reminds me of a ridiculous combo i tried to perfect involving ornithopter, howl from beyond, channel and phyrexian dreadnought. if i drew the right 8 cards, i could get a 12/12 trampler turn one! i think i played the deck 30 times before it actually happened. the first 29 times, i got my ass whupped, but that one time, man, i tell ya...thats what i love so much about this game.

yeah, i was pretty sure that the MF would lose the enchantment, although the +1/+1 counters that battlegrowth give it are interesting. i guess counters are permanents that don't constantly check to see what they are modifying, but continue to modify the correct type of card if and when it becomes a legal target.

this is all part of trying to come up with a UG Stompy deck. In anticipation of the next expansion (I forget what its called), which is supposed to have gold cards of opposite colors, or so i am led to believe. All this occurred after I found some magic cards I thought I had lost (or sold) containing several Serendib Efreets and other tasty creatures from waaaay back when.

if you cast unstable mutation on mishra's factory after it has been activated, does the enchantment beome invalid at the end of turn? i suspect it does as it would not be a legal target. i'm wondering if you can unstabley mutate it, or anything for that matter, and not have it become subject to the -1/-1 counters.

there's a very obvious reason this is in the casual forum. the other day, just for fun, i put together a deck with black cards i almost never use. it included erg raiders, fear, seizures, paralyze and songs of the damned. it was made specifically to play against other creature-based decks, obviously. the one thing i found, to my surprise, is that hasran ogress is not that bad. for those of you who forget what she is:

Hasran Ogress - 3/2
Summon Ogre - BB
If you declare Hasran Ogress as an attacker, pay 2 or Hasran Ogress deals 3 damage to you.

With the recent expansions, we've all had to deal with casting creatures that sound great but have drawbacks. Even a lot of the better older creatures had disadvantages (djinns and efreets) that damaged the controller. But the Ogress only hurts you if you don't pay her (slut!). In testing and casual play, she turned out to be a champion!

I think we should all dig deep into our boxes of commons and find cards that just aren't as bad as we thought they were. What other creatures are there that members of the forum love but won't tell anyone about because they arent Morphling or Darksteel Colossus?

if each triggers separately, every instance of storm on the stack triggers on it own as a result of a previous spell cast that turn. to me it sounds like stifle will stop the first copy, but when the second, third, fourth etc spells are counted up, storm is available to trigger again since each instance of storm is completely separate. remember, storm is not one giant spell, its several copies. if you wanted and had the cards and mana, you could counter each copy. i think because they are treated as separate spells, when stifle goes on the stack there are already X copies of the spell ahead of it.

ok, i really need to ask. maybe i'm just ignorant, but how does stifle affect tendrils? is the storm mechanic a triggered ability? other than that, i don't see how it would be relevant, and if that is the case, then i had never thought of it that way.

yeah, i think 3 annul is too much. its nice to see one opening hand to stop that chalice or null rod, but topdecking one midgame is pretty useless. i think i would personally run 4 FoWs, 4 Leaks and 4 Duress. Annul is a great card, but in order to guarantee seeing it early, you need to run too many. it can easily be sideboarded in against stax etc in the second match, but the 4 duress are useful against every deck in match 1.

counters are great, but there is such a thing as having too many of them. its the same problem classic LD decks ran into. there would be points in the game where the opponent had little to no resources and extra LD spells were icing on the cake, when what they really could have used was a fatty to beatdown with. there are spells you just shouldnt counter because its card disadvantage for you, like tutors. you counter the card they tutored for, not the tutor itself, that way to get rid of a business spell and they spend two cards whereas you spend only one (unless you forced it). if you still think 8 is too low, than maybe go up to 10 with a misdirection and an annul as Harlequin suggested.


cabal therapy is also good in this regard. you can always sac dark conf to it if he starts banging you up a little too much.

good point, i didnt realize it was a sorcery.

as for hurkyl, i believe thats a sorc too, but rebuild is something i would definitely consider for the SB or even maindeck as it would have silly synergy with winds of change. maybe root maze would work too, although i think it would hurt me more than my opponent. its also off color. im not really sure of whats out there in R U or B in terms of hate that would work against stax, oath etc. i realize im going to walk into a lot of counters, but im not ready to put 4 REBs in my maindeck, but probably in the SB.

no, what i'm saying is that my deck is redundant enough and the casting costs are low enough that i can force at least a couple spells through a counter-wall. even if my opponent draws two forces and a drain early, that still wastes almost half their counters while i have less than a quarter of my business spells in the graveyard, and once i get my hands on a yawg will thats even less of a issue. what im more worried about is artifact and enchantment hate.


i would think most decks would have trouble faced with a start like that. even if i run 3 basics, there's no guarantee i will draw one of my 4 fetches to grab one. given the state of vintage these days, the only decks that have much of a chance against a start like that are sligh and fish. obviously a fully-powered deck will have its way with me. what im looking for more is advice as to how to combat powered decks in a cost-effective manner.

i've always liked this card and RG beatdown is always great. throw in a couple of tinder walls, werebears, elvish archer, some bolts, shattering spree, jackal pup, ESG and maybe rogue elephant if you're feeling lucky and you have a deck. don't forget the pillage and creeping mold for some good old mix and match disruption/hate.

this is very similar to a deck i played about a year ago, its as budget as it comes, but it wins games. lots of them

actually, by turn three where most decks are getting ready to lock down, im finished the game. i can easily deal 20+ points on turn 3. and remember, this is an UNpowered deck.


well, thats why i want to create a viable sideboard for it. i think the deck is strong enough to race any other deck game 1, but i would like to sideboard in some help for games 2 and 3.  one of the bounces im looking at is troubling dreams from torment. i prefer the idea of mass help rather than a narrow solution.


i've played a couple of LD decks, as well is fast decks that run wasteland and there really isnt too much trouble. not any more than any other deck would have. if they get a lock down, well it doesnt really matter what deck youre running at that point, if they just annoy you, the cc of most of the cards in this deck is such that one or two lands can get you going. at one point i had 4 ESG in the deck as well, but that didnt really help me win, so much as win-more. i've also played some hand-disruption decks which can be a pain, but the deck is fairly redundant, so there isnt much worry caused over losing any one card.

I acutally have a Suicide black deck with a bit of green splashed in for pernicious deeds and putrefy and it sports hunted horrors and sacromancy, as well as carnophage and ghazban ogre.

Personally, i think ghazban ogre is pretty damned good, considering most decks in vintage these days don't do any damage at all unless they are going to kill you anyway. against any combo deck, you're facing 20 points of tendrils, at which point its irrelevant who controls what. prison decks wont hurt you until they have you locked down, and at that point, you can always sac ghazban to smokestack. if you can run a deck without CoB or fetchlands, you will likely always be ahead in life. as far as fish goes, BG is much quicker than any other build. Dark ritual, mana elves and ESG just make things silly.

besides, there is always a 'cool' factor when you play a card that no-one else would dream of. also, didn't paul sligh's original deck have flarg goblins alongside dwarves? sometimes crazy just plain wins.