I don't think anyone is claiming that this is an optimal card choice, or the foundation of a deck that will win a world championship or something. At least, I'm not. If that's the question, then the answer is no. But if the question is, "can this card be meaningfully played in a viable deck?" then the answer is.... possibly, sure. yeah why not?

As far as the Tinker comparison goes, why run anything when you can run Ancestral Recall? Tinker exist within a continuum of actions. You don't just blind cast Tinker (well, ideally at least), you want protection or else you wasted resources permanently. (Not to mention you only have one). Tinker isn't valuable because of it's objective power. It's valuable because of it's power within a continuum of actions. A good example would be Dark Ritual. Dark Ritual is objectively worse than many cards, but becomes very valuable within a continuum of actions.

Blue hasn't (imho) had a very good stable 3 drop since Thirst for Knowledge got restricted. And by stable what I get at is the card is less restrictive about (and perhaps even enables) play choices, rather than is more restrictive. Honestly, I remember being bewildered when people thought See Beyond was going to be the next big thing. Nothing against those people, but to me that showed that a cards value is more relevant to how it fits into a continuum of actions rather than objective power level.

I'm not holding my breath, but at the same time, I can't think of very many unrestricted (and not even that many restricted) blue three cost that wow me. Ophidian and his ilk have seen play before (not currently, but in that sense I do think of them as Vintage playable), and I would say trading four damage for a single card draw is a good trade.

TLDR
It's not flashy, but it's not trashy.

Lighting Bolt, I suppose, which is nice if you are running Jace. This is also less conditional overall (my opinion at least).

Certainly, Tinker is the better card, but if I'm fishing for reasons I can say it doesn't cost an artifact to play and doesn't get bounced by artifact hate.

Nothing mind blowing, but I could see fish variants using it as their beater of choice if they wanted to cut green or tarm (or whatever they run these days). If you took a mono-blue control shell, threw in back to basics, I'm sure you would do perfectly fine.

Should probably include the rules text in there.

Surprisingly not bad sounding. I wouldn't run Probe just for this though. Cantrips + Full Moxen (and Crypt) should be enough. Also, I'd axe Sea Drake for Jace because, you know, Jace.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily bad, as there is nothing wrong with the benefits that you describe. However, in a very "that's Vintage" sort of way, I generally find I don't need that many tutors (there are plenty if you are black), and I'm better off with more business/support cards.

Last time I messed around with it, it was in a more aggro-control shell, rather than combo.

I don't think it'll be on par with Dredge (which at this speed would be more like Flash),
Agree, but only too an extent. It's still more Belcher than Dredge, because it's all about speed whereas Dredge is more about awkward angles of attack. I doubt that it'll be a huge player in the metagame (at high levels, you just don't really want to trade away skill for randomness), but honestly this seems to be consistent enough that you'd be foolish not to account for it.

If you got the chant for free, then I'd consider it. Maybe in some sort of aggro beats/slight deck? Not that I think such a deck is viable, but it'd be a quasi-sensible fit for one if such a deck existed.

Would be shocked if this didn't at least become a 1 of copy in Workshop decks. 4 of? That remains to be seen, but the upside potential compared to the marginal loss, seems very high.

thats a brilliant link.

I generally don't like paying for articles (as free ones are typically very abundant, and I can't say I've exhausted those yet), but I'll break the trend on this one, as I love the topic. And I would definitely pick up a book on the subject.

pretty sure that wouldn't work and that it would only apply to the spell with split-second. correct me if i'm wrong...

NICE. I hope to see this broken. (hope not expect)

Jace AoT, not bad (4 cards for 4 mana and all). But just goes to show you "it's Vintage" where this card is generally going to be worse than your other options (Fact or Fiction, Jace TMS). His first ability isn't bad (though just a waste of space), his last ability is good, but since the only way to gain loyalty is to use the first ability when there are no creatures are around, it's kind of awful.

Guttersnipe. YEEESSSSS.... I can build that Janky sligh deck again. But more seriously (not that I'm not serious about building a sligh deck), I could definitely see this having play in a Storm deck, this gets the edge over Talrand in this case due to the immediacy of the damage. Also, Talrand is a Legend, this is not, so getting multiples of this card in play is somewhat retarded. Metawise might not be the best build, but could be a nice dark horse deck. (Should have been instant, sorcery, or goblin so that it could be played in a goblin deck, but whatevs)

Azorius Charm looks good to me. Particularly in decks with creatures (lifelink in the mirror match would be pretty boss). But even without, removal that cycles is pretty strong.

Izzet Charm & Goblin Electromancer both seem pretty good (though mentioned elsewhere)

Nivix Guildmage - The abilities are very expensive (though perhaps with Goblin Welder for Control Slaver maybe?). I think this is a nice mix with Gush however, however that sounds much more like win-more.

Chromatic Lantern looks prreettty retarded for Shops. I used to only mess with MUD shop decks because I hated balancing all the colorless and color mana, and this card lets your run 5 color shop (basically) without even having colored mana sources. Also, lets not forget that letting Mishra's Workshop tap for any sort of mana to pay for non-artifact spells is pretty significant.

Overall...

Chromatic will see play.

Izzet/Azorious Charms are playable, though it's difficult to say if they will see play as the strength of the utility is highly deck/meta reliant.

Guttersnipe has potential, but I'm ass at making storm decks so I don't have a clue. So does, Goblin Electromancer, which I think fits nicely into a blue control deck with minor hiccups. Nivix has a niche, but probably no.

The only other cards possibly worth talking about are Selensya Charm... no, but go for it if you want.

Also Grisly Salvage, which seems like it might have a strong niche application for deck for an aggro-control variant with it's deep dig and ability to stack the graveyard. I'd have to sit down and mess around with it more (than I am able to currently) to see if it makes sense or not though.

Two attack makes all the difference.

I agree emphatically, that he is not storm only card. I think He's pretty much a waste as a storm card.

I think he's best suited in a mid-range, not quite big-mana control deck, but not quite fish. Just stacking Snap, Bob, and him with all the best 2-3 mana spells is a good start.

I could see this seeing some play. Digging 3 with a body is a fair play. 1/3 is kind of interesting...

The rewording is just semantic, the point was to evaluate the card in it's theory form (resource consumption/generation).

Are we discussing the merits of hard casting Simian Spirit guide? No. My point is that the example has nothing to do with evaluating this card. Hard casting Grey Ogre is relevant in a deck where Grey Ogre sees play, but that has nothing to do with evaluating this card either.

It dilutes itself because 1 mana for 2/2 isn't awe-inspiring, and I haven't seen (though I haven't been intensely looking) people playing Ape/the-green-one/Nacatal/Lions/Pups in any sort of mid-range fish deck. They usually are much more aggro oriented, where the 1 cost is crucial for timing.

The benefits it gives you are overall not dramatic or well defined (+2 power is more of a situational benefit and somewhat hard to assess, whereas a hate-bear impacts the game at a clear strategic level), and my issue with fish decks recently is not that they don't have enough good cards. The opposite really.

Can you make it work? I'm sure you can make it work well enough. I just don't really see the point.

Trinket Mage is playable on the power of what he tutors. Hard casting a spirit guide is not really relevant. Bob draws a card every turn, this may give you a card once.

It basically reads "when this comes into play draw 1 card, gain 0-2 mana." It's not exactly that, but similar. It's not bad, but just adding the power is of questionable worth compared to diluting your deck.

I'm just excited because I'm curious to see a mono-red storm style deck, which this would be good in.

sexy time.

Wouldn't say insane, but I think it's playable (especially in Dragon, like you said). Not sure if it'll be making the cut though.

Yeah. I think it changes dredge a lot. Way better than any of the old return targets. It's the equivalent of when Tinker went from DSC to BSC.

Yes. Also, I like this more than Edric simply due to few mana restraints and non-legendary status. Opens up fish/beats decks a bit due to that.

But what kind of draw spells are run nowadays? If we were in the Thirst for Knowledge days, then yeah. But aside from Ancestral, you have Jace (not an issue), Top (not an issue), and all the cantrips (not an issue). Bob is an kind of an issue, but I would see this as more being an alternative than a compliment to Bob.

Someone mentioned Bomberman, which is a great example of Trinket Mage being a CA source while not drawing cards. I'm sure there are plenty other means to provide CA (SCM for example) without conflicting with TM.

Which now that I think of it is how the card should be thought of. Less "play things that provide synergy with the card" and more "don't play things that provide anti-synergy with the card"

Yeah. I don't even really see that much of a need for set-ups really. It's not like cards like Top/Preordain/Ponder/etc were ever bad cards. Honestly, I think it sets it self up plenty fine on just natural draws. Just add a couple of things to deal with it if it doesn't get played (Jacing it back into a deck, pitching to Force, etc), and you have a LOT of reward for marginal risk.

Hmm... I might have to retract my statement, I'm seeing plenty of GW lists that use Heirarch. Since you are at 9 strip/waste/ghost, it makes sense to me though. I haven't been using too much ghost personally though. (not a knock on the card though).

Just looked at your lists. Interesting. Obviously, I'm speaking in generalities, you could hybridize the two concepts. Looking at your list, imo, I don't see the need for it. Sure it fills the gap of giving you a turn 1 play, but ultimately  i don't see that as being worth it. what plays are the plays you anticipate it enabling?

GW beats and Noble decks are different builds. (see below)


Haven't looked at his specific list (at least not recently), but I'm 99% certain that it is similar to other GW beats decks and isn't interested in the long terms gains of Heirarch. It's much more likely for them to run ESG instead to power their bears out quicky.



YES. (finally).


NO. Well, sure against landstill, I guess he's good, but honestly aggro is typically a poor match-up for landstill anyways. Most of their counters go away (REB, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak, etc) and you will dominate the ground anyways. I don't know what landstill SBs, but I doubt they can put enough removal and still have dredge hate.

Yeah, I'm not big on it. Just playing devil's advocate.

I keep hearing good thing about Slyvan, but had always presumptively dismissed it. I know Guli likes the card, and it's popped up in a list or two. I may have to reconsider it, but honestly at the moment i'm still not hot on the card. 8 life is a lot to get CA.

if that's what you meant, then I would count natural draw with high threat density as a third alternative (which is kind of what has been discussed so far).

if you want draw, i would suggest blue, confidant, or Bazaar. I think Bazaar should have more exploration in aggro lists. I've seen some european madness lists (admittedly awhile back) that looked very strong. Faithless Looting  could also be an option in this sort of list if you don't want to/can't go blue.

there are some other options oath, that green enchantment that (2 mana, pay4 for the card, but you get to rearrange your top 4 for free or something like that), skull clamp, but i'm not nor have i really explored those options too much.

another option i've really wanted to try out, it to make an Ajani Vengeant aggro mid-range deck. Probably R/W with Ancient Tombs (maybe not all 4) or a GRW Noble Heirarch deck. Kill Jace, Golem, and anything less than Tarmo or BSC. If you can survive the swing, it can lock down one of those as well. Three turns with Null Rod/Stoney out means no mana for the opponent.

Replace? I don't understand what you mean.

What I would play? Mana denial is fine. Anything is fine. I'm not really sure what your getting at. My point is to not attack Snapcaster directly, but preemptively/proactively. The whole idea behind aggression/attrition is to get ahead of their late game, not try to challenge it. For instance, while Tarmogoyf directly does nothing against SCM or Jace, he can potentially kill the opponent before either can be set up. I don't see the need to do anything special.


Why wouldn't you just run Standstill over Remora? Aggro decks tend to be mana light. Fishstill used to be one of the popular fish variants.