That link was the first thing that entered my mind!

With regards to the questioning of this deck's success, I think it is imperative to note the lack of any combo played in this area.  You have your MD tech'd out to improve the matchups you expect to see(Drake, Firestorm, Fiery Temper), but I think you might be surprised at how valuable Force is against good combo.  Combo should already be a tough match for you; the only reason you arent losing to it is that you arent seeing any Draw7 or Belcher, and minimal Dragon(which you have SB for).  I'm not knocking the deck or your winning the last two T1's you entered; I'm merely pointing out that in a different metagame(one with combo present) you might feel differently about cutting the Forces and going pure aggro.  I guess I'm asking the following question:  Would you feel the same way if you faced combo on a somewhat regular basis?

Hmm...lots of Tog next month...I guess I wont bring mine then.  I was going to show up, but I decided to go to Wild Country(friday night) at the constant begging of my friends instead.  Thong contests>Magic.  Sorry guys, its true.  This caused me to not wake up until approximately 12:30 the next day.  Anyway, the guys from Belleville, Il keep talking about how we're going to make it over and always forget.

Are there really only 15-16 people showing up?  Are they all 5 proxy, cause that would make me feel damn proud of owning 4 pieces, lol.  Count on at least 3-4 more for next month's, I promise!  5 Rounds are tech.

Puck:  Have you ever been to any of the KC tournaments, your name seems oddly familiar, but I cant place your face.  We normally make the KC tournaments and were also at Hannah's a couple months ago for the signed Sapphire.  Congrats on grabbing the Crypt and some black border stuff!!

We're effectively from St. Louis, Mo in Belleville, Il about 15 minutes from downtown St. Louis.  Are you guys south of Chicago??  I'll spread the word around to my local guys and see if there's a serious interest....there's no real(re: power tourney) T1 in St.L on a regular basis and it's quite annoying.  I'll PM you in a few days after I spread the word.

Thanks for the info and have a good one!!
-Nick

And its pretty obvious that if your hand is broken then you wont be powdering it away.

Just thought I'd add a bit of content; all I really wanted to say is that fat kid av is fucked up.

Nice little report; I was going to attend this, but its a 6 hour drive from southern illinois.  How often do you guys plan on running these(re: as often as you have been??)?

A buddy of mine claims to have a friend with shelter up there so if we know far enough ahead of time, then we'll probably be down for road trippin it up there.

I'd appreciate it if someone could PM me whenever the next announcement goes up so we can make some plans to pwn GWS and Chi-town!    I'd be all about playing some poker also; I can bring KEM's if you guys still use the $1.99 decks.

lol...why'd you ID in round 3 against some random kid??  Other than that, congrats on the shiny Vamp!

Last I heard, you choose a target upon the animate's resolution.



I'm not disagreeing with anything in particular that you bring up, but is GAT really still running Daze??  I'm not a huge GAT guy, but the only time I like to be returning Islands is when I'm about to draw 2 cards.

I dont really have a problem with Intuition in a "combo" deck, but I do have a problem with AKs and a lack of Force of Will.  You dont have any problems against the top decks without Force or Duress???  How do these matchups play out??

Ak's and Stroke are simply to slow for a combo deck.  Why no Mana Vault?

You have so much search, I find it very hard that 4 Spellbombs are needed.  Storm based combo decks only need 1-2 slots for their kill mechanism...is this combo noticably better to the point that you can 'waste' 2 slots on the extra 'bombs??


Reiterating, I just see this as an incarnation of Reaplace, which was never a house to begin with, but absolutely died when it could no longer play 5 Lotuses.

Dargon, thanks in part to PTW, is currently dominating 1.5.  While I agree that nothing needs to be changed in our format, 1.5 could use help.  It would be very unfortunate to see Bazaar on the list due to its affect on 1.5.  It would be like Earthcraft, only people will care.

Even better advice:  Do not become comfortable with bad decks.



If you know there are errors why dont you correct them?

I hate to sound rude, but all of this is painfully obvious and therefore, not much help.

Dont wear reflective sunglasses to show my opponent my hand??  No shit!

Instead of focusing on such psychological edges, why not focus on playtesting decks or making the right decisions?  Focusing on the latter will have a much larger impact on your results than not wearing glasses or not having to worry about your trade stock.

So even if I'm extremely uncomfortable in a suit and tie and I'll have to stay in said suit and tie for 8 hours in close quarters in a room that is likely to be several degrees warmer than I would prefer, it would, excuse the pun, suit me better than wearing shorts and a t shirt?
(Run-ons 4L!)

Are you serious?  You are flipping a coin or rolling a die.  Without any outside influence(a loaded die, weighted coin, etc..) each flip is independent of the last, ie...even if the last 17 flips have been heads, the chance that the next flip will return Abe Lincoln looking up at you is still 50%  Prior flips/rolls have no influence on those flips/rolls yet to come.

Perhaps you mistakenly identify skill with uncanny luck?  After all, the people that are winning are going to be getting lucky and winning several crypt triggers in a row.  This is indeed a skill game, but getting lucky never hurts.

Perhaps we should reduce this thread to:  Bring your own coin/die so your opponent cant cheat.



I WAS A MATH MAJOR.CAN1!1!!!!!11!1!!111!!1 OMG LOL I HELP???!? LOL

So awesome.

Now we have to decide, officially, which is the more pimp version...this or an Alpha?  

I still cant justify spending the money on an Intuition and now there's this

How has Force been with only 11 non Force blue spells?  Is it still reliable or have you only been goldfishing?

Also, do you see this evolving into a Tendrils deck?  It seems to be the natural progression as ideally you'll be recasting your Lotus umpteen times, but you have 5 slots devoted to kill cards(3 Mine, 'geyser, Stroke) whereas draw7 and the like can get away with 1 or 2, at max.  Do you think you can get by with 1 Mine with 4 Fabricates, or have you tested it?  If you dont think this will evolve into a Tendrils deck, could you explain why?

Infinite mana always yields a warm fuzzy feeling, but is butchering the mana base to add white really worth it when you could play draw7 instead?

I'm not trying to bash at all, I'm just curious to see what kind of opinions you have as the one who's been doing the most testing.

If you are playing someone who doesnt know what you are playing when you cast Death/Prismatic Lace, then you'll likely win anyway.  Obviously, this deck is not played widely, but the Lace will ring a bell in people's head.

That being said, if you manage to win game 1, your opponent will know to bring in his/her 'yard hate.  If you dont, perhaps you can sneak game 2 out on mistakes, but you still have game 3.  It is better to rely on your skill than your opponent's lack thereof.  You're going to run into splash damage from Dragon and Slaver.

This was never a great deck, but it took a nice hit when LED was restricted.  This deck could abuse LED nearly as well as Long if you play with draw 7s.



There is a small amount of truth in your statement if by viable, you mean the deck can win even though there is a deck better suited for the environment.  If you can win with Reaplace, you should be able to win more with Dragon.  This is a fun deck to play, but fun doesnt mean you should try to navigate through 7 rounds of swiss piloting it.  You have better options.

You've already listed several of the reasons its no longer used.  WMUD and Stax used tons of artifacts, thus Metalworker was never dead.  Current Slaver builds run more blue and less brown so it cannot be abused as easily; Brainstorm and Force of Will mean 8 fewer artifacts in the deck.

Further, Metalworker + Gilded Lotus does not generate Mana.  Metalworker reveals a Lotus or two for two or four mana, respectively, while each of those Loti take 5 to put on the board.  With a metalworker you are essentially dropping each Gilded Lotus for free, but you are doing so at the cost of tempo, via summoning sickness.  It isnt incredibly hard for these decks to generate 5 mana on turn 1 for a Lotus.  This slight loss of tempo(untapping with a 'worker) is not worth the possible explosion of mana in a deck that a) runs fewer artifacts than either of the builds you mention or b) has artifacts with much higher cmc's than that of the builds you mention.

All of a sudden you are not tapping him for as much mana and the difference between the amount of mana you gain and revealed artifact's cmc is greater than that of a Wire/Stack/Sphere.

Really?  I thought you just cast a lot of draw 7's and won.



Not only is this a fragment, but Land Grant isnt a cantrip.



You have full power in the deck but you have a limited card pool...care to elaborate on this?



Winning prevents hate cards from hitting the board also.  The more turns you give your opponent the more likely you are to run into said cards.  If you were playing a good combo deck, you could just win instead of skipping a turn to try and find a Force.



Again, I ask how.  Please tell me how a first turn(or any other turn) Balance helps you win.  I agree that it can provide an advantage by forcing your opponent to sac his/her creatures(if he played) or by forcing control to lose a few cards in hand, but it does not further your win condition by expanding your resources.  It merely limits your opponents resources.  This is a noble cause, but again, wouldnt you prefer to win now than to delay things??  This is a combo deck, correct?




An even better way is to not run cards like Balance, Meditate, and Brain Freeze.  I never said that you had to win first turn, I merely said that you should try to win as quickly as possible.  If you can figure out how to win first turn, then great, you've broken the format.  If you cant, thats fine, but you should still aim to win ASAP.

Tendrils >>>> Brain Freeze

First of all, you run Mox Diamond with 6 lands...have you ever cast it?

Why do you feel you shouldnt win in one turn?  That's like saying you dont mind giving your opponent free turns, and if you want to get technical you dont have to go off all in the same turn with Tendrils either, but doing so maximizes your efficiency.  Combo decks love synergy and efficiency.  It doesnt make much sense to make your job harder.

Have you thought about the logic in using Freeze over Tendrils??  You now have to cast roughly 17 spells before you Freeze while Tendrils allows you to cast only 9.  Why make it harder on yourself while simultaneously giving your opponent more time to establish himself?

How does casting Balance first turn create an overwhelming advantage??  You might force them to sac one creature(assuming they play) or discard 1-2 cards from their hand at best??  I just do not see how this fits into a combo deck, much less one that aims to cast it first turn as you said.

You are trying to run a storm combo deck without Demonic Tutor, Mind's Desire, or Bargain, not to mention Mystical or Vamp.

And since you pointed out the fact that you dont have to kill in the same turn, why do you run Meditate??  I dont see how this is any good at all if you are not going to win same turn.

Forgive me if I sound harsh, but this just looks like a bad incarnation of Draw7.  How is this better than Draw7 and why is it a better choice in todays metagame?  What has your testing shown and how does this play out against the top decks like Slaver and Tog?

lol...Steve, Meandeck obviously didnt build his deck..he runs MD Plat while you guys dropped that.

I'm also really confused as to how you can side out the Gilded Loti...granted you were playing in a field containing WW, Sui, and Sligh, but these are incredibly important to your mana base development, which is incredibly important to pwning your opponent.

eBay will probably give you the best prices assuming you are patient enough to wait it out until you find a decent auction.

Your best bet is to just go to big tournaments and try to trade up for them.  You can find people who are willing to trade down their duals, you just have to be prepared to get rejected a few times.

The point that Swanky and I are trying(apparently, in vain) to get across here is that the very premise of the deck is flawed.  The fact that you are using Implements only makes it worse.

A Sunrise deck will never be a factor in the global/ideal metagame, and therefore, it really doesnt belong in this forum...try this in the Newbie Forum if you're set on improving the deck.

The secret to combo decks is getting them to go off, not continuing the chain once you start.  Palinchron can be insane with Tolarian Academy and Mind Over Matter on the board, but it didnt help you get to the point where you could go off, so it wasnt played in Academy decks.  This is the same type of thing.  For Implements to 'not suck' you have to play it and pop it once...for reference, investing 3 mana to gain 2 is bad.  Justifying your card selection by saying it doesnt suck the second time around is pretty lackluster as it completely ignores how bad the card is the first time around.



Then why try to build a combo deck around it.  You are trying to build a storm combo deck without Dark Ritual and Tendrils of Agony...stop and think about that for a few minutes.



Wow...avoiding the question is tech.

The only cards in T1 that share a color with Second Sunrise are Balance, Decree of Justice, and Swords to Plowshares.

Combo decks that are inconsistent and do not run disruption tend to be really bad...as in not worth anyone's time.  You said it yourself, this is worse than Dragon and Draw7.  Even if you could make it consistent, sans disruption, what benefits does it have over playing either of the mentioned decks?

Please dont ever again mention Implements of Sacrafice...I was embarassed that I had to look it up until I saw it was from Fallen Empires.  How is this card good at all...it actually costs you mana.

You'll have to excuse me, but doesnt "fun" normally equate to "really bad?"  Something like this will never make it through 5+ rounds of tournament play against top decks.

The head judge really had no idea what he was doing, which is very unfortunate.  Seeing any judge say that you can pop your Lotus Petal for mana under a Rod is...well, there isnt an adequate adjective to describe it.  This just goes to show you that you need to be aware and confident of all rulings questions you might run into.

The rulings that were given were the only true slop of the tournament.  The building was kinda short on elbow room, but nothing out of the ordinary.

I'm fairly confident he played both, but unfortunately I cant tell you which card doesnt belong.

A few corrections, my friend...

I didnt say you could race the Angel and win, I said you should.

You forget the biggest prop of all:

Nick Woolery for making an ass of himself in the quarterfinals so you didnt get Advantpwnaged in the finals for the Mox.

And hey, whats all this talk of peer pressure.  I'll be the first to admit that, in haste, I thought it was fair, but I was by no means pressuring you to do that split.  

The Slop you missed:

Blueberry Hill for having long ass waits all day so I couldnt eat one of the best burgers in town.


Congrats again!  St. Louis experienced Black Style Mastery all day Saturday.

Joel...hey, Nick here.  I was definitely the lone Slaver pilot, but to say it was Meandeck sans shops is really a disservice to Meandeck and myself.  Meandeck obviously runs 5 Moxen and 4 Shops while I own none of those, otherwise I would be playing Meandeck card for card.

They run 15 lands, I have to run 22(and 31 total sources, 5 Strips); I decided to run Tangle Wire and lands instead of Force and Brainstorm.  I realize how brash this sounds, but seeing as I'm semipowered, its often better to drop Wire and develop your mana base while your opponent is slowed so you just go broken when the Wire is starting to expire.

If anyone would like to see the actual list, feel free to PM me, but I dont want to cloud the thread with such nonsense as it accomplishes nothing short of stroking my ego.

I was indeed 3-1-1(id) at the cut.

Round one was some Scepter control deck where a 1st turn Welder drew out the Force for 2nd turn Chalice for two----> just win.
1-0

Round 2
I'm pretty sure this was EBA.  Game one goes quickly to him via 1st turn Duress nabbing Ancestral, second turn Meddling Mage(Welder) going all the way while I draw poop.  Game 2 Memnarch steal some perms and induces a scoop.  Game 3 involves him going Flooded Strand, Sapphire, go to my Strip, go; he then drops another fetch, go while I drop Waste and pass.  He then drops lotus and plays Angel face up.  I drop a blue source, Crypt--->Grim Monolith Tinker Memnarch and double strip his lands leaving him with Sapphire and Angel and me with Memnarch, Academy, Crypt.  I take beats from the Angel and Crypt for two turns and then steal her and get a scoop(Perfectionists, please realize I didnt take notes and this account is slightly off, but it serves the purpose).  My buddy Jeff(Blyden) and I were talking about the life gaining whore pretourney.  He asked how he deals with her(Madness) and I replied "um...win....fast."  He asked me and I said Memnarch...nice precursor to my 2-0.

Round 3 was against the other Jeff(Tog).  Not really much to say about this one...I consider Jeff to be a better player than myself and I just drew the cards I needed.  Game 2 involved him dropping Tog early and then Twisting my hand away after I had developed my manabase only to top deck Slaver with a Tog on board and Will in hand while he was tapped out.  A complete mise.

Round 4
I got paired down somehow so while everyone else is eating yummy food I'm getting beatdown by Andrew(iccarus, I believe) riding first turn Dryads both games to my mulls to 5.

I then draw into the top 8 and get paired against FCG.  Game one I get broken and win.  Game two I get more broken into second turn Gilded Lotus-->Jar, but cant pop yet.  3rd turn, 2nd Lotus, then Jar...play some brown spells and the twist, drawing into 2x Welder and Trinisphere(sb) with 4 mana up.  I get cocky/stupid and play the Trinisphere first.  I realize how bad this is as I'm placing it on the board while simultaneously announcing it.  I deserve to lose this game and I do.  Game 3 involves me making more mistakes and losing to a better player, but an inferior deck.  As embarassed as I am about the completely obvious bonehead mistakes I make during this match, Sean deserved to win.

Props:
My deck for being optimal given my cardpool.
Artificial Angels for racing my Crypt and winning.
Opposing Ancestral Recalls targetting me.
Seeing 3 Isochron's in your opponents(slavered) hand with Chalice for 2 on board.
Memnarch for stealing Angels and 2nd turn Isochrons imprinted with counterspell on the third turn.
Slops:
Me, for being a fucking moron in the T8 and losing despite the fact that my deck very obviously wanted me to win.  Please continually ridicule me for this so it never happens again!

Ok, peace out!
-Nick

Wow....thats an interesting, and quite optimistic, viewpoint.

This isnt really a new idea; its more of a metagame call.  The Wurm can work better than Negator in a Sligh and, to a lesser degree, Keeperesque heavy metagame but it's going to be horrible against any sort of Workshop deck and marginal against standard aggro.  I think you should run the Wurm in addition to Negator though, unless it's going to get burned everytime it hits the table in your area.

The problem with relying on Deed to destroy the permanents they drop via Wurm is the high cmc said permanents are likely to have...ie....you'll be knocking off your Wurm most of the time if you even have enough mana to deal with their threats.  If you think Tempting Wurms can work in your meta, that's great, but like Suicide, it will only ever be a metagame call.

With regards to Andro's comments, I also cut the 3 Scrying and the lone Unearth seems questionable, but I do not recommend Hyppies.  Their time has come and gone and the disruption they provide is matched with an inferior clock at 3 mana.

This is why Ambassador is the primary kill.  If you are able to find him via Bazaar, you should, if for no other reason than to win a game like this.  This is, of course, assuming your opponent wants you to play it out.  This probably seems like nitpicking, but if your opponent doenst understand the combo and doesnt care to ask you to explain it until he does understand, this is a game you should win.  Ambassador's ability cannot be MisD'd.

Anyway, its always good to hear someone taking the plunge into T1; glad you got your feet wet!

I'm stuck in the Midwest and have long drives to any decent(and by decent, I meant 25+ attendees) tournaments, so count your blessings!!

Frost, good report!  Glad to see you guys were rewarded for making the long drive.


Unfortunately, my only claim to fame is being utterly smashed by said Affinity deck.  I was in 7th after round 4, but with Frost's first round draw, his opponent and my buddy Jeff had to play it out against Monotone to see who makes it in.  Bad ties make Chris(Frost's semi's opponent) have to play it out as well and my ties are only slightly better, so I decide to put fate in my own hands rather than drawing to a coinflip.

Long story short, I open with first turn Welder, then Justin goes something to the effect of "Pearl, Sol Ring, Frogmite, Lotus, Academy, Desire for 5 into 2 Moxen, 2 Frogmite and 'twister.  He pulls the Lotus again on his 7 and ends up Tendril'sing for 16.  My tapped(for whatever largely inconsequential reason) Mana Vault and 3 Frogmite's convince me to scoop on my second turn.  Game 2 is similar brokeness, but this time involves a Disciple of the Vault, 3 Ravagers and Burning Wish-->Echoning Ruin targetting my second turn Tinkered Plat. Angel after which I act like I'm thinking about any possible outs, but really I'm just stunned and upset I faced two god draws when it mattered most.  I had watched some of Justin's earlier matches curiously as I had also considered the merits of Ravager the previous night.  Justin, I'd really like to see that list.  He did manage to go 4-1 with it, although the Stormbinds, like Mr. Menendian, were nowhere to be found this time.

Jess:  Will anyone be posting T8 decklists??  Let me know when the next one is, I look forward to it!