@ Mind Twist:

It is basically a Hymn to Tourach. Well, it is WORSE than Hymn to Tourach.

@Dated Deck:

Personally, a MBC (Mono Black Control) is not that viable in vintage.

Why?


Your discard would have been for nothing if opponent resolves a Welder, Confidant, Recall.
Blue has "better" draw cards than you. (Better because of quantity)
Blue has counters, red has critters, white has critters as well, green is generally not played in vintage.
You have no artifact hate, maybe aside from Ashes to Ashes.
You are "slower" than most decks. (Yes you have Dark Rituals, but that is only a 1 turn acceleration)


I'm not saying black is bad, but it is at its best when combined with another color (say, blue. This is insane.)


If you are readily accepting splashes, I suggest Blue, and make a storm deck. ^^

BTW, Black is the best color to hose G.Y.

^^

Hmm...

Try using these cards:

Umezawa's Jitte
Withered Wretch
Dark Confidant

on Board:

Leyline of the Void



And you got:

Suicide 


4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
3 Withered Wretch


4 Dark Ritual
4 Smother (Kills Welder on the spot.)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole (Replace w/ 3x Mesmeric Fiend and 1 more Nantuko Shade IF you don't have them. DO NOT use 3cc Land-Destructions)

4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
15 Swamp


Necropotence is basically replaced by Dark Confidant in Aggro decks. ^^

Sorry for the super late reply. Been busy, graduation is nearing.

Anyways, yes, Mindscensor is for Combo decks who likes to search.

Plus, it is a good addition now that Tezzeret is here. ^^

I am using Spellsnare on my U/W Fish deck, and is loving it.

It counters Oath of Druids, Sphere of Resistance, Mana Drain, Accumulated Knowledge, Painter's Servant, etc...

Though I only put in 3. ^^

Want to try, but:

Casting cost is NOT reduced by Warchief.

Not fetchable by Matron.

Un-drawable (lol) by Ringleader.

Forces Goblins into suicide attacks



Pros:

Good against Staxx, which we are already good at.

Good against Fish, which we are already good at.

Good against Ichorid, which we are already good at.

Hi again!

here's my current list.

True Believer simply "swaps" in some other critter.

4 Meddling Mage
3 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Sage of Epityr
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Grimoire Thief / True Believer
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Jotun Grunt

1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spellsnare / 2 Spellsnare, +1 True Believer
2 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wipe Away

3 Null Rod

4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Hollowed Fountain (Needed if True Believers are on the deck, since they cost  )
2 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Energy Flux
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Aven Mindscensor
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Echoing Truth
3 Serenity / 2 Serenity, 1 Swords to Plowshares


Note:

Low land count because:

-Low Casting Costs of creatures. Curves around 2.
-Sage of Epityr. Nets you a land.
-Ninja of the Deep Hours. Card Advantage
-Virtually Low/Free Counters and Removals (w/ the exception of Wipe Away.)
-Low/Free Denials/Tempo (Null Rod, Wastes & Strip.)


So far, it does good to Staxx (unpowered, though), and Painters.

It does "fairly" in Oath, fairly because it is one of our worst matchup.

Does well in Affinity. (Null Rod + Kataki = gg)

Does kinda good in Mono  , unless Tinker + Sundering Titan rips lands apart. >.<

^

I'd really cut black. Why?

If you are splashing Black for:

Confidant - We have Ninjas, Brainstorms, Ponders (Also, I use Sage of Epityrs) and to some proxy extent, Ancestral Recall

Extripate - Why? Ichorid? We have Jotun Grunt and Swords. Welder? Kill Welder.

Discard Effects - We have: Force of Will, Daze, Wastelands and Stripmine. Plus, Null Rod and Swords to Plowshares. We have enough answers.

Storm - Stifle. Meddling Mage naming Yawgmoth's Will. Postboard, Jitte Lifegain will make them miserable.


The Javelineer in my deck was cut to be replaced by Stormscape Apprentice so I would not have to Swords a Fattie.
Killing Welder/Confidant will be dealt with using Swords to Plowshares. (And Spellsnare in case of Confidants.)

Please do not use Vanilla ones. I personally believe they are really outdated. Savannah Lions and Isamaru, were good, but they don't have anything to help you. 2 damage clocks aren't worth to be called clocks, IMO.


About Tanglewire:

Tanglewire must be prevented. It's the single dominant card in staxx that ensures you don't play anything.

Wire + Spheres = you can't FoW easily.
Early Wire = Staxx having more permanents than you. Smokestack WILL own you.
Multiple Wires + other lock effects = Staxx really will pwn you.

I said single dominant card because Trinisphere is restricted. But for me, those 2 cards are the main threat of Staxx, followed by Goblin Welder and to some extent, Memory Jar..

Prevent those cards, and you have a very good matchup against Staxx.

Null Rod will stop Moxen, Triskellion, Karn, to some extent, Metalworker.

PS:

I'm experimenting a build that has maindeck True Believer, since I don't use Ancestrall Recall. Prevents Mindslaver in slaving me, prevents storm from killing me, prevents Duress + Hymn from stripping my hand, prevents Grindstone from grinding my library. ^^

Basically, it protects you from most top tier decks, aside fro Bomberman, which we have Null Rods and Stifle (on Trinket Mages, ofcourse.).

Hi Serenity!

Anyways, to combat Staxx, you need to achieve the following:

TEMPO.

To achieve it, you need:

Meddling Mage - First to be named, usually, Tangle Wire.
Force of Will - If you can't name a Wire, counter it.
Swords to Plowshares - Goblin Welder should NOT get active.
Wasteland - nothing to explain.
Daze - Workshops CAN'T pay for Daze. ^^
Stifle - whatever you can.
Null Rod - slows everyone but you. ^^

Don't worry too much about Smokestack. ^^


Maindeck Kataki (on my build) usually lightens the match.


Against Fish:

The one who unleahes Grunt and draws via Ninja usually wins.

Save StP for opponent's Grunt. ^^

Postboard:

Against Staxx: Serenity, Energy Flux should do just fine.

Against Fish: Umezawa's Jitte.

====

Personally, I like Ninjas. Vintage is a meta that usually has no blockers, and Ninjas fit in nicely to fetch you a card per turn.

I don't like Black in Fish that much, maybe except for Extirpate and Dark Confidant, but that's it.

^

Hmm, but I think, that was overkill. Ofcourse, once again, I am biased because I haven't tried it yet.

We have alternate disruptions on decks that uses Moxens and Lotus.

Storm - Extirpate, Earwig Squad, Leyline of the Void, Pyrostatic Pillar... To some extent, damage done by our critters will put them into "red zone" where they could not optimize using more Necropotence, Bargains and Tutors (exception: Demonic)

Bomberman - Extirpate, Leyline of the Void, Pyrostatic Pillar, Warren Wierding/Gempalm Incinerator to kill Auriok, Vexing Shusher (kills DRAIN power. )

Control Slaver - Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm Incinerator, Warren Wierding, Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, Vexing Shusher once again.

Oath - Hard matchup even w/o Power cards. But we have: Warren Wierding, Greater Gargadon. ^^

Fish - Hardly uses 3+ mana producing power. We can beat them using swarms.

Stax - We have, swarm. Lackey. But if they show up once again, artifact removals is a must. Again... ^^

So far, the common decks in my area are as follows:

Bomberman
Control Slaver
Grim Long
Fish (U/W)
Oath
Ichorid (Mana/Manaless alike)
Painter's Grindstone
Stax
Goblins
Suicide Black



So there.

I say, Stifle is still good, so as Swords to Plowshares. Bounce is still relevant. Force of Will is still a must-pack for Blue decks.
Mana Drains still can define winning. Null Rod still slaps artifacts.

So there.

But I am biased, I'm a U/W Fish (Former Ichorid, Manaless/Mana) pilot. ^^

My  / list... Unpowered, ofcourse. You can mix and match if you really like  ... ^^

4 Meddling Mage
3 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Sage of Epityr
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Grimoire Thief / True Believer
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Jotun Grunt

1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spellsnare
2 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wipe Away

3 Null Rod

4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Hollowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Energy Flux
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Aven Mindscensor
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Echoing Truth
3 Serenity


Note:

Low land count because:

-Low Casting Costs of creatures. Curves around 2.
-Sage of Epityr. Nets you a land.
-Ninja of the Deep Hours. Card Advantage
-Virtually Low/Free Counters and Removals (w/ the exception of Wipe Away.)
-Low/Free Denials/Tempo (Null Rod, Wastes & Strip.)


**Still not tested vs Bomberman and Control Slaver though...

My current list:

4 Earwig Squad (Last I heard, prevention is BETTER than cure. Plus, it nets that Engineered Plague... ^^)
4 Mogg Fanatic (Still kills Welders and Confidants.)
4 Goblin Lackey (Still works wonders)
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader (Someone said the meta was warped into slow-pace. Rushing them w/ overwhelming critters would be a so-wise choice)

4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Wierding (So we can remove some random fattie GAME 1)
1 Stingscourger (Colossus, Platinum, upcoming Hellkite Overlord)
1 Vexing Shusher (Makes other spells un-DRAINable.)
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Wort, Boggard Auntie (Need that goblin back?)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial (Free Gobs. Who doesn't want them? Your opponent...)
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring (After all these times, I still can't find a low priced Mana Crypt.)

4 Wasteland (I run full compliment because I have Maindeck Vials. ^^ )
1 Stripmine (You can't go wrong...)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
5 Mountain

Sideboard:

2 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Leyline of the Void (Last I heard, they still stop/slow Ichorid, Bomberman, Storm (Yawg Will?), Staxx (Weld in and out?)...)
4 Greater Gargadon (Oath. Damn Oath.)
2 Warren Wierding (Extra removal.. Oath. Damn Oath.)
2 Extirpate
1 Gaea's Blessing (Is this really necessary? I mean, we can cycle a 1/3 creature early on, right?)


I know, manabase is low. But I got Vials. In a number of test matches, it is very rare to get mana-screw. ^^

The key is right Fetching. You should not Fetch a non-basic unless you need to. ^^



Considered SB:

REB's and Family - Painters. Fish... Bomberman and to some extent, Control Slaver.
Null Rod - Kills metals. And the format is pouring with them. But, has a very bad synergy w/ Vials.
Thorn of Amethyst - Works wonders. ^^


Not-So-Considered SB:

Chalice of the Void - Though we have Vials, investing mana for Chalice for 1 and up isn't that good, since we are blowing up some of their lands (Wastes, Strips). I rather cast a Lackey/Piledriver, than invest mana for Chalice @ 1.
Goblin King - This is not legacy.


So there. Quite outdated though. I still doesn't have POWER.

Hmm, I think I like your board.

I know my board looks terrible. haha That's my biggest problem, as of now...

anyways, In an aggro infested meta (bunch full of Sui-Blacks, Platinum Oath aka "Steel Battallion", Hate decks, Goblins, Fish Bomberman and Staxx), wouldn't it be nice to run atleast 3 Contagion in SB?

What a coincidence!

We're also having a 15-card proxy tomorrow (Saturday)

Where do you live? :p

Anyways, the common R/G Beats creatures are the ff:

Tarmogoyf
Magus of the Moon
Tin-Street Hooligan
Skyshroud Elite
Kird Ape
Mogg Fanatic


common utilities:

Skullclamp (you're gonna love this card!)
Umezawa's Jitte
Aether Vial
Pithing Needle
Lightning Bolt
Seal of Primordium?


common lands:

Wasteland
Stripmine
Wooded Foothills
Taiga
Forest
Mountain
Stomping Ground


common Sideboards:

Pyrostatic Pillar
Shattering Spree
Chalice of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Pyrokinesis
REB
a lone Gaea's Blessing


It's up to you to mix and match

I'm also worried about blue card count.

I wanted to test the build but I don't have powers and FoW's (omg).



I'm curious, as I have stated, I'm no expert on Ichorid, I just play it...

How do people deal w/ hate? I mean, yes, Ichorid wins 99.9% of game 1. games 2 and 3 are soooooooo questionable.

Hate is being brought out. LotV's and Crypts being MD'd....

Which cards do you guys remove to bring in the "anti"-hate?

Is 3 River Khelpies that much needed or you can run -1 Khelpie and +1 Angel of Despair?

I don't know, but I won games using Angel of Despair.

hmm, I'm an Ichorid player but not an expert. I still have tons of things to learn but I'll share you BOTH my decklists. (Mana-Ichorid and Manaless Ichorid)


Manaless Ichorid:

4 Bazaar of Bahgdad
4 City of Brass
2 Petrified Field

4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return

4 Unmask
4 Cabal Theraphy

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Golgari Thug
1 Angel of Despair
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage (Finally, after 3 months of searching!! >.< )
1 Darkblast

Board:

4 Contagion (kills Yxlid Jailers, Welders, Lackeys, etc...)
4 Wispmare (Kills Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plagues, other nasty stuff...)
2 Ancient Grudge (kills the Pithing Needle, Platinum Angel...)
3 Gemstone Mine (Could be replaced w/ 3x Chain of Vapors or Echoing Truths?)
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Blazing Archon


**Notes:

If Storm decks are all around you, I suggest you replace the Angel of Despair with Ancestor's Chosen.

Darksteel Colossus are for the freakish Painter-decks.
Blazing Archon are for ALL aggro decks out there.



Mana-Ichorid:

4 Bazaar of Bahgdad
4 Cephalid Colesium
4 City of Brass
3 Petrified Field
1 Stripmine

3 Breakthrough (I only have 3, sorry)
3 Careful Study

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Theraphy
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Dread Return

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Golgari Thug
1 Angel of Despair
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage (Finally, after 3 months of searching!! >.< )
1 Darkblast


Sideboard:

3 Chain of Vapor
4 Contagion
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Balzing Archon
4 Wispmare
2 Ancient Grudge


Mana-Ichorid is FASTER than Manaless versions, but it lacks disruption and most likely dies to Tormod's Crypt alone. >.<
However, Mana-Ichorid packs more hate in the SB.


Well, that's my list.
Again, I'm no expert, I just happen to have some experience in playing the deck.

hmm ok, I would try that. lol

How do you sideboard in Ichorid deck?

My board:

3 Wispmare
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Contagion
1 Darksteel Colossus
3 Ancient Grudge

My deck:

4 Bazaar of Bahgdad
2 Petrified Field
4 City of Brass

4 Unmask
4 Cabal Theraphy

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Angel of Despair
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Eternal Witness/River Khelpie (I still DON'T have a Cephalid Sage )

3 Dread Return
1 Darkblast

I forgot the 4 cards! omg..


Anyways, how do you board in? What do you usually remove maindeck??

Uhmm, just to clear things up...

I "stopped" playing "too much" AFTER the recent DCI banned/restriction list (June 20, 2008 - I believe...).

My previous deck was Goblines, a R/B Goblins deck with maindeck Leyline of the Void and Earwig Squad.

AFTER the Banned/Restricted update, I moved Leyline of the Voids into Sideboard and replaced them with Aether Vials. Moved Earwig Squad into the board and put in Warren Weirdings.

Now, I really have no clear idea on what the meta is. Most of my "test-groups" runs: Welder MUD, Staxx, Bomberman, Mana Ichorid (my deck also...), Control Slaver, Oath, Suicide Black, some Discards, Landstill and such,..

So FCG popped into my mind. I think the meta was warped to a "slower" motion. Am I wrong? hahaha

Sorry, haven't played seriously for a while. Well, since the new B/R for vintage went public.

I have:

School stuff. I'm graduating (hopefully) and have alot of pressure on.
Low on money. Again, I'm graduating (hopefully) and I have tons of school expenses. >.<


So I'm asking, for the current meta, is FCG (Food Chain Goblins) viable to play?

Here's my list:


4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Recruiter
3 Goblin Matron
1 Vexing Shusher

2 Siege-gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

4 Simian/Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Food Chain

1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring (?)
1 Mana Crypt
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloostained Mire
4 Taiga
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Mountain


SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Shattering Spree
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Naturalize
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Pyrostatic Pillar


Any comments?

^

I couldn't agree more.

But that should not stop us from innovating, right?

If you could find a place for Chalice of the Void in your deck to stop the moxen and lotus, you may have a little shot.

You knock out their land, stop their "free" mana.

Your problem now is, how do you stop the threats that are already in the table?

I have this idea about Megrim.


Using the ff cards:

Memory Jar
Wheel of Fate
Wheel of Fortune
Black Vise

Just a fun deck though.


here's the list...


4 Megrim
1 Memory Jar
4 Wheel of Fate
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Dark Ritual
4 Black Vise
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Beseech the Queen (or Grim Tutor)
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach / Thoughtsieze

4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Withered Wretch
4 Dark Confidant (??)

4 Cabal Pit
14 Swamp

SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void ?
4 Contagion
don't know what to place anymore.

hahaha

Hmm, I don't know if Land-Destruction would be feasible, as I haven't tested it yet.

I could win via it's reogue factor. But I don't know.


As soultaker said, Oath can smash you clean.


1st turn - Orchard + Mox + Oath = ? 2nd turn...


You might want to reduce your colors to 2, namely,  or  or 


  has:

Bounce - Anything that "slipped" under your Land Destruction is put right back where they belong. (EG. Aether Vial, Oath creatures, Goblin Lackey, Tanglewire, Metalworker)

Counters - Anything that would "try" to slip will not do so.

Draw - Drawing cards is almost always has a positive effect. More threats in hand = good.

  has:

Artifact Destruction - An early Tanglewire or Sphere of Resistance will screw you up. Especially Tangle Wire. Aether Vial will 100% screw your plan. Tried and tested.

Burn - Can kill most thinnies in the format. (Lackey, Metalworker, Welder...)

  has:

Discard - Land-D and Discard has a nice mix since you cripple the mana base AND the hand.

Tutors - Finding a card you need most is very good.

Fattie Killers - Diabolic Edict will kill even Darksteel Colossus.

  has:

Well, I have only 2 cards in mind. Crop Rotation, which will make Strip + Crucible lock more available and Fastbond, which makes you drop more than 1 Wasteland on a turn.

They should make a deck named "Gro-A-Goyf"

haha

Seriously, GaT would still be possible, but playable? I don't think so.

Ok, for you it IS playable. You could play it. But the question is, would it win most of the time with it's main engine (Gush-Bond) destroyed?



*Insight*

If they really like GaT that much, why don't they use the Grim-Long engine instead of the now-dead Gush-Bond engine...

I think this is not Mono-Black-Control.

This is rather, a Suicide Black.


My take:

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant  (Oh I love this card's ability!)
3 Withered Wretch
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Bitterblossom (Why oh why did I ever sold mine. >.< )

4 Dark Ritual
4 Contagion / Diabolic Edict / Sinkhole
4 Duress
3 Thoughtsieze
3 Extirpate
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Null Rod

3 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
14 Swamp


SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Extirpate
3 Powder Keg
3 Engineered Plague


PS:

I don't own any of the Power 9 so I posted an un-proxied version.

Hymn to Tourach is omitted in favor of Thoughtsieze, but I'm not really sure.

I think that if we would include Aether Vial, we should put back in those Wastes and Strips (Ports too, probably...).

Okay, so what would be most people's builds now?

sorry for asking, I was not active today because of school schedule (my schedule sucks...), so I really have no idea about the meta.


Would any of these merit inclusions (not all)?

-Goblin Vandal
-Tin Street Hooligan
-Goblin Tinkerer
-Dark Confidant
-Wasteland and Stripmines
-Aether Vial

Would you remove these?
-Leyline of the Void (Or put in into SB...)
-Thorn of Amethyst/Pyrostatic Pillar (From Sideboard...)


And what do you prefer, FCG or Goblines/Dark Gobs?

I second kicks...

I'm thinking just the same. Cutting Leylines for Vials...

If shop decks became sooooo popular, I'm replacing my 2x Mauler and 2x Prospector w/ 4x Vandal. (I know, you said it sucks, but it gives us a little edge against a steel army...)

But for me, I will not remove Leyline from my deck. It shoudl find it's way to sideboard.


@you guys that will use Vials:

Are you including Wastelands and Stripmines in maindecks now that Vials are back?