Yes. This is going to be absolutely insane. You do not have to chain-dr Sun Titans now to kill, just one big, fat demon and your deck will be drawn in an instant. So -3 Sun Titan, +2 Griselbrand. If you fill up that last slot with the fourth Dread Return, you could exchange FKZ with Flayer of the Hatebound, enabling a kill without depending on other zombie tokens, the combat step or even bridges in your graveyard.
Way too good.

Why? Emrakul never hits the graveyard, so no trigger for him.

One of the Workshop players this sunday did exatly this. I don't know the exact list he played, but saw that he boarded it against painter (and hardcast it later that game to win, lol ).

Actually, the first card that came to my mind when I read him was Bitterblossom. Slow, but seems insane.

Blessing is definitly better

Hi

I am playing unpowered Oath myself (but in a full powered meta) and have found a very "fishy" Oath to be the strongest. You can just play the control role until you find the Oath and then win from there.
But, first to your list:

I really don't like the manabase. With 4 Forbidden Orchard you are already in a very good position to get a very stable base, without having to rely on City of Brass, so it would be a good idea to completly go the fetch route. Also, why do you have 3 basic forests? Isn't that a bit overkill? I would at least play one island. And why are there no Wastelands?
While two creatures is alright, I would strongly recommend three and one Show & Tell, to have a good plan b if a critter sticks on your hand or your oath gets destroyed.
Spells: You have very many dead spells there. What you do not want is Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven, they are just too expensive to play unpowered. I would also cut Gitaxian Probes for Preordain, it's just the better card in this deck. Krosan Reclamation and Regrowth are also very meh with an unpowered deck.
You didn't tell very much about your meta, but if there is any deck packing counterspells your Crop Rotations will suck very fast. I also don't get why you would not play Force of Will if one of your greatest foes is 2-Land-Belcher.
And if we're at that topic, if the other one is Legacy Staxx, why are there no Null Rods? Bye Belcher, Metalworker, Monolith, Hellkite, LED, Trike, Karn.....etc.

That being said, you might want to look at this list for a more controlish version (polished for over a year now), which does fairly well in a full powered meta:

4x Forbidden Orchard
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Island
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Diamond
3x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle

4x Oath of Druids
1x Pernicious Deed

1x Sun Titan
1x Progenitus
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Ancient Grudge
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
3x Stifle
1x Brainstorm
1x Rebuild
3x Lightning Bolt

2x Preordain
1x Ponder
1x Show & Tell
1x Demonic Tutor

Side:

1x Stormtide Leviathan
1x Relic of Progenitus
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Pyroblast
4x Nature's Claim
2x Firespout

Hope I could help.

Greetings from Germany,

Florian

Just one. I boarded it out against Red Staxx, RB Hate, WB Hate and 4c Fish. It was a gamewinner against each other blue deck so I left it in.
Short story of which plays I made:

Against URB Weldercontrol with Vault and Entomb I saw that he had Vault in hand (Key in play) so I took a Drain and countered his Vault. In the third game I took his Vault and went infinite with it.
Against Turbotezz first game I took his Tezzeret, searched for my Vault. He had to play the Tezz in his hand so that he would not lose on my next turn. I was also able to see that he had at least 1 Drain in hand (none left in the deck, so I was guessing he had 2), so I grudged his two Synods a few turns later. He was then only able to play one Drain for my Vault, which I could Redblast, I did not have a second counter.
Again, in the third game we were both in topdeck mode after a counterwar, so I took his top and the filter ability also won me the game (this was maybe not the optimal play, but it was the best thing I saw in this moment).
Against the TPS player, I had double Confidant, so I took his Tendrils. Sadly, he had Tinker, Time Walk AND Will to still kill me with Blightsteel.

So I tested this in a UGRB VaultKey deck at the Bazaar of Moxen 5, going 6:2:1, winning against Welder/Entomb/VaultKey, Dragonbreath Oath, 2x Turbotezz, BR Hate and WB Hate, losing against TPS (yeah, 2 times first turn Necro with Backup is that good ) and UWGR Fish, drawing against Redstaxx, having a Blighsteel on the table, him not having anything left and seven poisoncounters - but oh well, we were in the fifth extraturn already :/
I have to say, this card is just nuts. It won me the game every single time I played it (even taking Demonic Tutor out of BR Hate in g1).
Yes, you have to board it out against Ichorid or Staxx, but it's almost a second Demonic against every blue deck out there and definitly worth 3 mana.

So I don't have anything to back my thoughts on this up, but I would like to take ANT in a different direction.
I did play ANT in Vintage a bit, but much more in Legacy (even without Mystical). The thing that was always bugging me is the density of threats. I think the deck is inferior to TPS or Bob Tendrils when it comes to a gamestate that isn't dominated by ANT's aggressivsness (oh my.. I'm sorry, I can't explain it better).
But now for my idea:

The Legacyversion I am currently playing plays 12 cantrips and two playsets rituals, together with eight fetchlands. What was pretty awesome is that you don't need your LEDs (which basicly just act as a land-discarder most of the time) anymore to use Infernal Tutor to it's fullest.
So what I am suggesting is a deck with a playset Infernal Tutor, maybe backed up by Frantic Research to discard lands, add stormcount and generally be awesome. The plus is that you don't have to play four Nauseam anymore and generally be able to search better for the things you need.

So, a pretty rough draft from the top of my head:

Lands (13):

4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Underground Sea
1x Island
2x Swamp

Tutoring (7):

1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor

Fastmana (17):

5x Moxen
1x Black Lotus
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Dark Ritual

Cardadvantage (12):

1x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Ponder
3x Preordain
2x Frantic Search
2x Ad Nauseam
1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Will

Disruption (6):

3x Duress
3x Thoughtseize

Kill (2):

2x Tendrils of Agony

Which leaves us with three slots, being 1 Hurkyl and 2 Chain of Vapor I guess.

Like I said, I don't have anything to back up those thoughts / list but a single idea based on the resilience of Legacy ANT and the hope that Infernal can be ported to Vintage.

Maybe?

Cool card though.

Have you tried adding black for Bitterblossom?
It just seems very strong in this kind of deck, acting as a plan b if your Polymorph gets countered and at the same time producing creatures so you don't have to tap for 5 to combo out.
Maybe Goblin Assault in red?

Currently I'm testing this list (unpowered):

4x Forbidden Orchard
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
2x Tropical Island
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Diamond
1x Island

4x Oath of Druids
3x Null Rod
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1x Demonic Tutor
1x Balance
1x Ponder
1x Careful Study
1x Life from the Loam
1x Regrowth

1x Dragon Breath
1x Emrakul, Aeons Torn

4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
1x Brainstorm
1x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Rebuild
1x Echoing Truth
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Daze
1x Intuition
1x Lat-Nam's Legacy

Sideboard:

1x Show and Tell
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Blazing Archon
1x Empyrial Archangel
2x Extirpate
3x Ravenous Trap
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Pithing Needle

Allthough Jace seems a bit clunky, the deck is running pretty well overall. It has a fair chance against Ichorid preboard (if you get out Oath fast enough) and a solid Bomberman / Painter matchup. The REB's have given me a good performance over all, being very good against Noble (i.e. already on the field Trygons / MM).
I tested with two Dragon Breath before but cut down one because they were always in my hand (as is Emrakul.. bad draws I guess ;D). Emrakul gets haste about ~75% of the time I think.

I did run Ninja / Standstill / Sage, but it was a bit too clunky imho.
Also, most of the time I didn't get Energy Flux out because they locked me out pretty fast.

So I got my hands on a playset of Bitterblossom and wanted to try it in a fishlike shell.
So far, the tests with the first build have been quite good. It has pretty strong matchups against Painter and Vault Key decks and good chances against most fishlike decks because the faerie tokens give a solid base of blockers.
Problems occur with Noble Fish, mostly because I had no way to remove a Selkie (therefore, main Darkblast now) and Goyfs are too huge to block dead. Also, Staxx is a really horrible matchup.
If a chalice 2 hits the floor, i can just grab my things an go.
Ichorid is horrible postboard, but it works pretty good after the Jailers are in, most of the time i can protect them through the game. I just played two times against Goblins, one time against a monored build, which destroyed me basicly, second time against a Food Chain build, where blocking faerie rogues saved me against a horde of goblins while I cut him off his combo with Sprites.
Thats basicly everything about the matchups for now. I did choose this deck because I like the synergie between the Sprites and Blossom, but also the light suicide touch that Confidant and Blossom bring to the table.

So, without further talk, I present you BitterStill 2.0:

Lands (20)

3x Underground Sea
1x Swamp
4x Island
1x Library of Alexandria
3x Mutavault
1x Strip Mine
1x Riptide Laboratory
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand

Creatures (11) +4))

1x Sower of Temptation
2x Cloud of Faeries
4x Cursecatcher
4x Dark Confidant

Counter + Disruption (16)

4x Spellstutter Sprite
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Duress
2x Spellsnare

1off-Solution-pack, Draw and Tutors (7)

1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Repeal
1x Darkblast
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder

Artifacts and Enchantments (6)

3x Null Rod
3x Bitterblossom


Sideboard (15)

3x Scion of Oona
4x Yixlid Jailer
2x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Curfew
3x Annul


So, on to a few card choices:

Riptide Laboratory: Not that strong in the earlygame, but amazing later on. Bouncing Spellstutters to counter again or a Confidant to prevent dying (yes, I am one of the persons who always gets minimum 1 FoW in the Confi-draw) is too good to not play at least 1 time.

Cloud of Faeries: Well, I had two slots and they do make the Spellstutters stronger. Imho the most arguable slots in the deck because they don't do that much.

DC over Vamp: That was a pretty hard choice, but i like DC more, mostly because I can tutor it directly to my hand. Sacrificing a big part of the deck therefor is imho more safe than the two lifeloss from VT. Yes, i know that it's minimal, but I do win very much games with one or two life left, thanks to Confi and Blossom.

The rest of the deck should be pretty self explanatory, so on to the Sideboard:

Scion of Oona: I figured that fighting aggro with Fish methods will not be enough, but fighting aggro with 2/2 or 3/3 black, flying faerie rogue tokens is god damn effective.

Annul: Yes, I fear Workshops much

Curfew: Oath and/or Leviathan or in a few cases a Dreadnought. Saved the day a few times now.


I hope this gives you a small overview about the deck. I'm trying to get the finetuning done in the next few tournaments. It is pretty fun to play so far.
Tipps or other help are of course very welcome

Greetings,
mort-

We had a tournament yesterday, not knowing what I should play I tested this list (I tried to fit Esperzoa in a deck because I just loved the card the moment it was released).

4x Master of Etherium
4x Esperzoa
3x Juggernaut
1x Inkwell Leviathan

3x Null Rod
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Tangle Wire
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Petal

3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Leak
3x Daze
1x Tinker

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
11x Island

Sideboard

4x Propaganda
3x Echoing Truth
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Hurkyl's Recall


It was doing well against Combo, but pretty worthless against Staxx, which seems to be the worst possible matchup for this deck. I didn't play against Ichorid or other Aggrodecks, so I can't tell how good the Propaganda in the Sideboard is.
The deck itself did run pretty stable, I sometimes had to mulligan because I didn't find blue mana sources, but I'll test Solemn in the Juggernaut slot for that problem.
Funny thing is that I did not play the Zoa one time in all five rounds, most of the time Tangle Wire alone did stall a bit of time until MoE or Levi did the job.
I do like the control-part of the deck, but I also think that I can't bring enough pressure on the table / not control my boardposition enough.
All around I think that it is a fun deck to play, I'll try looking for a way to finetune it more, this is atm the first version

I think you can cut up to 4 forests + fill 3 - 4 slots with fetchlands. You don't need that much mana imho.
Also, I think that this list only has it's comboplan, once you can't go off you can't switch to a more aggroish version.
Adding 1 Imperious Perfect wouldn't be too bad in my opinion.
Also, if you're playing skullclamp, why not play Wirewood Herald's instead of Pact's? It's a token with hivemaster, two cards with skullclamp and one card with glimpse.
Also, what's pretty neat with skullclamp is Prowess of the fair and Caller of the Claw.

This would imho be a stronger plan B if your combo fails / gets countered.

If you're interested, that's what I'm testing atm:

// Lands
    1  Pendelhaven
    1  Taiga
    1  Bayou
    4  Forest
    1  Windswept Heath
    2  Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
    3  Wirewood Symbiote
    2  Quirion Ranger
    4  Nettle Sentinel
    4  Llanowar Elves
    3  Fyndhorn Elves
    4  Heritage Druid
    4  Birchlore Rangers
    4  Wirewood Herald
    2  Quirion Sentinel
    1  Viridian Zealot
    1  Caller of the Claw
    1  Imperious Perfect
    4  Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
    4  Skullclamp
    3  Glimpse of Nature
    3  Prowess of the Fair
    3  Goblin Bombardment

I do think that a second creature wouldn't be too bad.
StP = you have just lost the game.

Didn't think about the Thorn, consider the 4 Slots changed

I don't have power, so I could only play Mox Diamonds / Chrome Moxen (in this case Mox Diamonds because I don't think that I want to pitch anything for Chrome's). Adding City of Traitors would be bad I guess, I fear to get colorscrewed too much + I want to keep the Wastes / Strip Mine.
Same goes for Sol Ring / Mana Crypt.
So it's either Diamonds or SSG's, although I don't know which slots to cut for either of them.

Hi again,

I'm still tinkering with a R/W TMWA list. What has been bugging me for a long time now is that i do not have that much carddraw, nor tutoring power.
I looked at a few cards and that's what it got:

Deck (61)

Lands (22)
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Plateau
4x Plains
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Windswept Heath
1x Mountain

Creatures (21)
4x Order of Whiteclay
1x Fulminator Mage
4x Mogg Fanatic
1x Stingscourger
1x True Believer
4x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Hearth Kami
1x Ronom Unicorn
4x Magus of the Moon

Artifacts (5)
4x Skullclamp
1x Lotus Petal

Enchantments (4)
4x Oblivion Ring

Instants(4)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcerys (5)
1x Wheel of Fortune
4x Gamble

About my cardchoices:

Skullclamp: It all started with this card. Most of my creatures in the original deck where 2/2, so I would have a situation where my critters went to hit for 3 or get me 2 cards.

Order of Whiteclay: THE card in this deck. It has a great synergy with Gamble, the creature toolbox and Skullclamp. Can replay every creature in this deck, so it should give you a decent way to answer your opponents threats.

Gamble: I took it in after I added the Order. If you have Gamble without the Order.. gamble and maybe you can keep it ;D If you have the order out it's a tutor for 1 because it doesn't matter if you have to discard the tutored creature card or not.

Toolbox: With the Order online, this creatures do all something to wreck your opponents board. Aritfact removal, a walking Wasteland, a bounce, etc. I did not look that much into the creatures because I had this idea a few minutes ago, but I think you should get the idea behind it.

Basicly I added a little carddraw / combo engine into the RW control shell. Even if the combo is not online, you should have enough control over the board with Rings, Magus, Canonist and Wastelands. I'm trying to test it out in the next few days, please feel free to add suggestions / critism.

Greetings,

mort-

Edit: I didn't include a sideboard because I think it's up to you what's going in there (and mine is still in work ).

If i can toss in a quick Question:

Why does nobody use Magus of the Scroll? A deck without carddraw should not have that many cards after 3 - 4 Rounds in the hand, so it would be 2 damage almost every time you use him.
Or am I missing something?

Edit:

Also, the decklist I'm currently tinkering with

Lands (22)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
4x Plains
1x Strip Mine
3x Windswept Heath
2x Flooded Strand
4x Plateau

Creatures (20)

4x Magus of the Moon
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Mog Fanatic
2x Magus of the Scroll
2x Duergar Hedge-Mage
2x Goblin Welder

Artifacts (5)

3x Null Rod
2x Black Vise

Spells (13)

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Red Elemental Blast
2x Browbeat
3x Smash to Smithereens


Sideboard (15)

2x Ronom Unicorn
1x Smash to Smithereens
2x Shattering Spree
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Hide / Seek
3x Ghostly Prison

First round I went to 5 cards (only manasources) and did hope to draw a finisher or a draw 7.. which did ofc not happen
I did not mulligan that aggressiv, staying at 6 cards if the hand was halfway ok all over the tournament.

First game I did play wheel and drew nothing. Second game I played a tombstalker which he bounced. It never got out again.

Yes, that was my mistake.. I know, a pretty big one :/


That's what I'm trying in my next tournament. I do think I lost a few matches because of my playing experience (which I do not have ), so I hope it gets better with time. Also I'm trying to mulligan more agressive. Thing is, my hand is ok - not super, not bad - ok. Then I'm thinking "There are hands that are MUCH better" but fear to mulligan because there are also the ones that are much worse :/

mort-

Well, most problems I did have against Echoing Truth ^^ Got me killed in 4 or 5 games due to bouncing Tombstalker or EtW (I did not draw any belcher in those games..).
I boarded the Storm Entities in matchups where i thought that BB would be hard to get due to counterspells. They did win me one match (One 1/1 and one 3/3) because my opponent didn't draw any mana.
The most difficulty I had was with the UB control player. My oppening hands were all pretty so~so. Against UB control having 6 manasources + wheel, drawing into NOTHING while my opponent (who had no force in his hands) drew Lotus, Ancestral, FoW, FoW, Drain ~~
I wanted to play 1 Storm Entity / 1 Stalker main, but I thought "then you draw a Entity when you need a Stalker and vice versa", so I played 2 Stalker

Ofcourse

Unpowered 2-Land-Belcher aka Stormbelcher aka Shoop da Whoop

1 Bayou
1 Taiga

2 Goblin Welder
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
2 Tombstalker
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chrome Mox
1 Memory Jar
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring

4 Manamorphose
4 Dark Ritual
4 Guttural Response

1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Rite of Flame
1 Channel
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Land Grant

Sideboard:

3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Desperate Ritual
2x Storm Entity
2x Goblin Welder
4x Ingot Chewer

I'd like to throw a mono R list into the mix, because I do think this could be quite fun to play.

So here is what i thought (ofcourse I did copy a few things from lists I saw in this thread, so it's nothing completly new):

Budget TMWA

19 Lands

14x Mountain
4x Forgotten Cave
1x Strip Mine

11 Spells

2x Browbeat
1x Wheel of Fortune
4x Pyroblast
2x Fireblast
2x Dead // Gone

16 Creatures

4x Magus of the Moon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Viashino Heretic
2x Gorilla Shaman
4x Countryside Crusher
2x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

15 Artifacts

2x Crucible of Worlds
1x Trinisphere
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
4x Aether Vial
2x Chrome Mox
4x Mask of Memory

About a few Cardchoices:

Forgotten Cave: Let's you dig through your library a bit. There are no spells with higher cost then CC3, so I thought about adding some "card draw". Also it has a nice synergy with Countryside Crusher. I don't know atm if I should switch it with Wastelands / City of Traitor's / Ancient Tombs.

Browbeat: Damage or draw, should be ok

Fireblast: Should work nice with Countryside Crusher.

Pyroblast: I don't know if four are relevant and if i should play Vexing Shousher instead.

Dead // Gone: I do think it's nice against Oath and/or Darksteel Colossus, so I included it.

Countryside Crusher: I added four because many spells cause you to throw your lands into your graveyard. My main creature in this deck.

Shaman / Heretic: I do not have any experience with those two, but I'll just try this mix now

Jaya Ballard: 2/2 + nice little gimmiks imho.

Aether Vial: With so much 3drops I do think it's a must have. Also gives you more room to discard / saccrifice lands.

Chrome Mox: I don't know if a Diamond Mox would be better in this case. It does have a better Synergy with the CC.

Mask of Memory: I don't know about this atm. It's cheap and it lets you plow through your library. With 1/3 Cards in the deck being lands, it has a nice synergy with the CC. Also it's a may, not a have to.

Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Greetings,

Florian

So I was at a tournament yesterday, standing 2:3 after 5 rounds.
Round 1 against Food Chain Goblins - I did draw really bad all three rounds and lost 1:2.
Round 2 against Powered BU Confidant Control - Couldn't do much. 0:2
Round 3 against Unpowered Reanimator without FoW - 2:1, lost the first game due to topdecking him Echoing Truth.
Round 4 against Unpowered Dragonstorm: 2:0 - Finally my deck shows some good draws.
Round 5 against Powered Oath - Lost the first game cause of Echoing Truth and a playing mistake (R1 10 Goblins, attack R2, R2 14 Tokens with Will, R3 he plays ET). 0:2

All in all I have to say that my draw did suck most of the time, don't ask me why ^^ Murphy's Law imho. I'll try it again at other tournaments, maybe I'm having better luck then.
If there is anything you want to know, just ask.

Oh and btw, 2 Tombstalkers main do rule quite a bit. I played them more often then Belcher / EtW in this Tournament (didn't see those two very often -.-')

- Deleted -
See post on page four

nope, i didn't

damn :/

well, i'll keep watch for the next one (< lifes in trier)

this might be a bit offtopic, but does the tournament organizer have some homepage where he announces his tournaments? i saw nothing at morphling.de

By the way, what are your thoughts on defense grid?
I thought of swapping them with the 4 Guttural Responses.