It's time to have a Serious Discussion about Proxies Again

[martyr]

For those of you interested in pretty proxies, check this out: http://gamingetc.safeshopper.com/1607/cat1607.htm?39

I will be buying a set, and hopefully just trading off the foil.

I think 10-12 proxies is good, probably 12 because, as someone pointed out, decks generally have either 4x Mana Drain, 4x Bazaar, or 4x Mishra's Workshop in addition to some power. If you want to play the uber-powered decks (like turbo-combo or 4cc), it's not asking too much to drop some extra cash, but 12 proxies gives you a LOT of options.

I think Wizards needs to smell the bacon. This site is profiting off their game when they could be doing the same.

[Yare]

Yare, I have an undergraduate degree in Economics as well.  This whole conversation is laced with latent economics questions.  One of the more interesting ones that you overlooked is basicaly: what is the utility curve of playing non-proxy Vintage?  At some point, the price of power will make even the most die-hard player sell off thier cards. 

But I think you missed one critical point in my question: I pointed this out to make it as explicit as possible: there are only four SCG events remaining.  You extrapolated my question to N number of tournaments - where I was limiting my hypothetical question to four. 

If SCG announced unlimited proxies, that would only affect four tournaments, period.  I am assuming that there will be no more SCG events.  Now recalibrate your answer with that fact in mind. 

First, note that I'm a rising junior; I haven't graduated yet.

Regarding people who have power selling it, I guess I considered it but didn't really post anything explicitly.  I was thinking that the price of power would not get so high (like, Mox = $1000) that most people with power would sell it.  The idea is that if you can afford to spend the money on the cards, then you're probably not going to be selling them off unless the price gets really, really high.  Anybody who can take a hit of a thousand dollars or so on cardboard is probably willing to give up the cash.

I'm not sure that utility choice is between cash and "nonproxy vintage;" it would depend upon the definition of nonproxy.  If by nonproxy you mean a format without unlimited proxies, then I would say that the utility curve would be relatively flat (with money on the x-axis and vintage on the y-axis) indicating a strong preference for nonproxy vintage versus money.  This must be the case, as there are a LOT of people who have thrown down the money for the big cards (both before and after they went past that "very expensive" threshold).

Regarding your hypothetical announcement question, I did miss the only four tournaments part, even though you put it there.  I think the answer depends on a lot of things.  If we are assuming that SCG may or may not have more tournaments beyond these four and it is not known by the general public if there will be more (which I believe we are, and come to think of it, is how it actually is right now), and that the only real change was that SCG announced that all tourneys would be unlimited proxy, I would guess that the price would go down slightly, and that's if it moved at all.  I don't know that the assumption that there will be no more tournaments is necessarily a safe one (unless you have inside info or something).  We really have no indication right now to suggest that there won't be more tournaments so until that time, I don't know that the proxy announcement would change all that.  Additionally, it would depend upon whether SCG announced that just these tournaments would be unlimited proxy or these tournaments and all future tournaments if they should have them would be unlimited proxy.

Although....now that I think about it, I guess the point you may be trying to make is that before SCG, prices were much lower, and if you suddenly took away that "need" for power created by SCG, then the prices might fall back down.  If, instead, the new demand for power created by the bigger Vintage following (which was probably created by SCG) is not affected by the removal of the need for it for SCG, then prices would only slightly decrease, as opposed to a larger drop.  

To answer the question in general terms, I feel like prices would not drop much, if at all.  There are so many other places to play that one group of tournaments (although large) will not deter buyers all that much.  There's also the international aspect to consider, in that the elimination of the "SCG power need" barely effects them at all.

Did I get everything?  I think I did.

Edit:

The reason I started this dialogue now instead of six months from now is becuase six months from now it will be too late.  I think that increasing the number of proxies for the SCG events could help draw in more people and make it more likely that these events will continue.  See my point?

So, you're trying to suggest that SCG should up the proxies and therefore get more people and therefore make them have more tournaments, or something to that effect?

[Elric]

As another current undergrad and economics major (at Duke no less), my opinion is that people have a non-economic value for the most expensive magic cards.  According to a friend who buys and sells cards (I haven’t been paying attention), Black Lotus has been increasing more in value than other power cards.  This makes no economic sense if proxy tournaments are becoming more widespread.  Since Black Lotus is by far the most expensive piece of power, everyone should be using one of their 5+ proxies on it.

At least in the US, the number of non-proxy tournaments is pretty low (150 people at Gencon), which means that if all you wanted to do with a card was to play it, you would simply buy the 6th most valuable card for your deck on down (assuming you had 5 proxies- it’s a little more complicated for 10 proxies because there is no obvious 11th card).  One flaw here: you won’t always play the same cards in your deck.

To avoid that problem, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall and Mox Sapphire are probably about equally played, since each is in almost every deck (correct me if I’m wrong, Dr. Sylvan).  Still, Lotus is worth much more than the other two.  This is because Lotus offers something beyond economics; it is the quintessential symbol of magic, especially Vintage.  There is something about owning a Beta Black Lotus that makes people willing to spend thousands of dollars- and it isn’t just investment, because people want to play with the card too.

On to competition: there is no reason to go to a 200 person Power 9 tournament for the prizes.  Since SCG gives the prizes away no matter how many people they have, there is a naturally limit to the number of people who can be attracted by the prize.  If you are legitimately confident of making top 8, regardless of how many people attend, you should go.  If you don’t have a great shot at top 8 and the tournament is going to get 200 other people, you really have to enjoy it to be the 201st person. 

I agree with JD, though- economics doesn’t explain everything.  People go to magic tournaments because they enjoy the tournament more than because they want to win the prizes (consider what would happen with rational expectations if there was a tournament with prizes=entry fees and people were only going for the prize: everyone but the most talented player in the area would skip it).  I don’t think people run magic tournaments solely because they want to make money: people want to impress their peers (the community) by putting on the best tournaments. 

One really interesting factor about running a power 9 tournament is that it guarantees a good attendance.  Since the prizes are so valuable and guaranteed to the whole top 8 (so even if you can’t beat the best player there you can still do really well), the incentive to play would be overwhelming if you thought only 50 people would show up. 

People go to the tournaments because they like the prizes but most people who don’t have a great shot at top 8 are going because of the enjoyment they get out of the tournament.  There are probably a host of other benefits to SCG for running the tournaments (being able to buy cards, reputation, selling power), but if they consistently get entrance fees in excess of (the costs of the prizes + the cost and opportunity cost of attending the tournament) it is because a lot of people really enjoy their tournaments. 

At the same time, having 9 power 9 tournaments is probably too many.  I think SCG was a little too attached to the number 9 .  6 tournaments is probably fine because when you hold 9 tournaments a year you might cannibalize your own market (people only play the tournament close to them, skip a tournament or two because they can play another one later, just want a break from magic for a month, etc.). 

I have to agree that the increased demand for power in order to play the SCG P9 series is not the main cause of price increases.  I think the explanation that explains more is that the SCG P9 series increased interest in Vintage which increased demand for Vintage everything (and consequently caused the price of power, especially Black Lotus, to go up even more). 

It is hard to say what the supply curve of power on the market looks like (while the total supply is constant, the amount being sold at any given time is much, much lower).  I would guess that most people with power who don’t play much will still hold onto it for sentimental reasons until they become convinced they will never use it again; or they have a pressing need for money; or both.  This isn’t really economics; just common sense.  In a lot of cases, I find that economics is just using common sense and math to describe the world.

[Lunk]

the main problem is that Milwaukee/Chicago/Minniapolis have great Vintage communities, the east coast has a great Vintage Community, and from the sounds of it, California does too (correct me if I'm wrong).   Now the major problem is... How do we get ALL these communities together to gain maximum attendance?

The answer:  We don't.

Why not online?  What chance is there of a series of online tournaments (using MWS or Apprentice, whatever) working, with some sort of entry fee and some high-end T1 as prizes?  There are several reasons I believe this would be a good idea:

MWS (or apprentice) allows for unlimited proxying, and best of all, a card you don't own a physical copy of is just as clear and attractive as one you do.

It would provide a way to entice new players who are interested in trying out competitive T1, but aren't willing to drop hundreds if not thousands of dollars before they can even consider being able to compete.

Once those new players are hooked, it would also provide another means for them to work around the large entry barrier to physical T1, at least partially allowing them to substitute skill for their month's paycheck.
 
Finally, it seems like it would be far less expensive and stressful for the organizer and players alike.  No gas money, hotel rooms, renting out or providing a place to play, etc.  Just get everyone to their computers and into an IRC or AIM or whatever chat room and you're good to go.

Before flaming me, please note that I'm not suggesting replacing physical T1 completely with virtual T1.  Undoubtedly, I'd rather the social interaction of a real tournament than sitting on my ass in front of my computer screen for 6 hours.  There are also several issues that would need to be addressed such as judging and cheating (I believe I've heard of some backwash programs for Apprentice and possibly MWS that allow a player to cheat, but I honestly don't know enough about it to comment).  But would this be a viable way to supplement real tournaments and bring some new blood into T1?

[edit]: Eye speel gud.

[Yare]

Before flaming me, please note that I'm not suggesting replacing physical T1 completely with virtual T1.  Undoubtedly, I'd rather the social interaction or a real tournament than sitting on my ass in front of my computer screen for 6 hours.  There are also several issues that would need to be addressed such as judging and cheating (I believe I've heard of some backwash programs for Apprentice and possibly MWS that allow a player to cheat, but I honestly don't know enough about it to comment).  But would this be a viable way to supplement real tournaments and bring some new blood into T1?

Regarding Apprentice, the program Backwash has completely ruined any legitimate chance at holding a "real" tournament with it where the prizes were worth playing for.  I can't speak for MWS.

I suppose you could supplement real tournaments with this, but I feel like there is just something about type 1 beyond the actual gameplay.   Online you can't snap your Force down and say "I'll Force it" when you're opponent plays that critical spell that he was hoping was gamebreaking.  You can't trade with people (there's no such thing when MWS and such are involved), or chat with players who have finished their matches.  You can't even make fun of the store for having outrageous prices on its cards.  I guess I just feel like part of type 1 is the allure of the whole tournament environment.  I guess if people were really, really into an all day online ordeal that it might happen, but I just don't see it going through.

[aTn]

I think proxies are a necessity, without them the format will die or at best stagnate (i.e. no new players). Just look at the number of P9s printed and you'll find it hard to believe that vintage can become global and ideally join the ranks of poker in terms of the number of adepts.

I think setting a predefined limit to the number of proxies is not a good solution. That number will probably have to change as the metagame changes (for example if the new dominant archetype uses 4 shops, 4 drains, the whole P9 and LOA - ok that doesn't seem likely, but hey, no one can read the future).

Every time I try to 'calculate' the maximal number of proxies that should be allowed, I find myself looking at the archetypes present in the metagame and trying to find which cards are hard to find/expensive. That is why, the best solution I can come up with is having a predefined list of cards that can be proxied. Card value and accessibility (which are often correlated) should be the criteria used to elaborate such a list. I think the list should at least contain the P9, LOA, mana drain, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop and Illusionnary Mask. The fact that up to now, no viable deck contains more than about 18 of the cards on that list wil ensure that there is no abuse.


@Martyr: The proxies you suggest, posted on http://gamingetc.safeshopper.com/1607/cat1607.htm?39 ,  are not legal (for example the exact name of the card is not written - lotus what ?!?! black lotus, lotus petal ??) and so are useless for tournaments.

[Vegeta2711]

10 is fine. As Maro said, too much chicken little going on here.

[Revvik]

I think proxies are a necessity, without them the format will die or at best stagnate (i.e. no new players). Just look at the number of P9s printed and you'll find it hard to believe that vintage can become global and ideally join the ranks of poker in terms of the number of adepts. For now, I think having a predefined list of cards that can be proxied is the best solution. The problem is setting a clear criteria that can help define that list.

@Martyr: The proxies you suggest, posted on http://gamingetc.safeshopper.com/1607/cat1607.htm?39 ,  are not legal (for example the exact name of the card is not written - lotus what ?!?! black lotus, lotus petal ??) and so are useless for tournaments.

To be fair, putting the full name on the card (instead of "Jet" for "Mox Jet") would probably have attracted unwanted legal attention.

[Godder]

I notice that some of the SCG tournaments coincide with other tournaments e.g. Pre-releases. That no doubt lowers the associated costs somewhat, since they only have to book one venue, staff etc. for both, even if there is a small decrease in numbers in one or the other (and pre-releases are good for joining in the fun after going 0-2 drop in the main event...).

Does anyone have the attendance figures for the events to date? Excluding tournaments run in conjunction with others, though, because that would give us some idea of how the individual tourneys are going.

[Smmenen]

I remember most of the figures - so this is working from memory:

SCG I - Richmond last july: 167 people.

SCG II: Richmond Again: 88 people
This was right after Gencon.  This was the same time a pre-release.

SCG III: Chicago: 136 people

SCG IV: Richmond Again: like 58 people - there was a huge ice storm in Virginia which caused them to do another pre-release the following weekend.  People in Virginia are pussies when it comes to bad weather.

SCG V: Syracuse?: 136 people - Kevin won this one. 5 proxies

SCG VI: Chicago: 154 people - Trinisphere just restricted (I think this was five proxies - correct me if I'm wrong - i wasn't there)

SCG VII: Richmond: 110 people - 10 proxy

SCG VIII: Rochester 176 people - 10 proxy - but also pros showed up. 

I think i've got all those numbers right.  If not, I'm pretty close.  I didn't attend two of them. 

Clearly the Chicago and Syracuse markets are growing while Richmond fell dramatically and then has picked up again. 

Compare that to Gencon 2003: 188 people and 2004: 154 people.  and Waterbury this past year 202 in Jan. and then 145ish people in the spring. 

The numbers fluctate to be sure.  But I think the up to ten proxies has certainly helped.  I think it definately had an impact on The Richmond turnout.  I think one key test will be to see if it has an impact on Chicago. 

[yespuhyren]

@Martyr: The proxies you suggest, posted on http://gamingetc.safeshopper.com/1607/cat1607.htm?39 ,  are not legal (for example the exact name of the card is not written - lotus what ?!?! black lotus, lotus petal ??) and so are useless for tournaments.

To be fair, putting the full name on the card (instead of "Jet" for "Mox Jet") would probably have attracted unwanted legal attention.

Thats pretty weak in my opinion.  I saw those proxies too, and although I don't need them, I thought it would be cool to get for my friend, as he doesn't have full P9.  Anyone who questions what "lotus" on a card that says "power 9" all over it shouldn't be playing T1. Personally, I won't blame anyone for buying or using them, as its a much better alrternative lookwise, and there is really no reason they shouldn't be allowed as long as they are the same size/weight as a normal magic card.

[shade88]

Currently, after reading many suggestions, I feel that 5 proxies, with a dollar a proxy thereafter, stopping at 12 total proxies. It allows for many archtypes to play, and still lets power 9 hold value--because a player still can't play every deck on 12 proxies, the format has the full potential to grow, and everytime a player wtih power 9 sees a proxy across the table from him, he not only knows that he has power and the other player doesn't, but doesn't feel like he wasted his money, because that player has to pay money to use the power cards.

I also feel that proxies should be set to a minimum of only cards $100 or greater in value after the first 5. This rewards power 9 owners, and doesn't let players "cheat" on the proxy rule, proxying cards they should very well buy.

[vroman]

with legacy now a supported format, its player base will naturally increase with official prize support. this will send FoW and duals to $50+. Ive heard of ppl say that mana crypt is "mini-power", bc its twice the cost of the staples. however, now pretty much every staple T1 card will be mini-power. in order for legacy to be viable as a PT format, and to keep the entry barrier to vintage from becoming unreasonable, there is only one logical course of action:
Wizards MUST at some point in the near future reprint some old cards. Id start with only Legacy legal cards, ie, duals, FoW, chains, old man, etc. these should certainly be white bordered, so that the old versions will still be sought after collectibles. also by making the format more accesible, demand for the cards will increase overall, including demand for old versions.
after that reprint set, Id venture the point that vintage staples get reprinted including, yes: Power. limited run foil power awarded to, say, PT winners, is an idea thats been tossed around, and I agree with. Keep in mind Im a shop owner curently holding multiple sets of power. Like above, the value of the old cards will stay steady or go up with the increased interest and demand for the format in general.

Once these reprints have been done Id like to see more zero proxy sanctioned vintage. barring that, it should atleast go back to 5 proxy.

as for collector's edition and championship decks: I wouldnt allow these on principle, due to the physical differences with real cards. if they were legal, black sleeves would have to be required, as the opacity of lighter colors is not guaranteed, especially with older sleeves. also the square corners would have to be trimmed to avoid easy deck manipulation cheats. No one wants to have to cut on a $100 black lotus.

[Moxlotus]

I would allow unlimited proxies for cards printed in Legends and before.  After that set I wouldn't allow proxies.  The reasoning behind proxies is that the print runs were so small-this would negate this problem.  Cards after Legends take little/no effort to find.

[shade88]

Like above, the value of the old cards will stay steady or go up with the increased interest and demand for the format in general.

Talk about hitting a bulls eye. This is a great point that hasn't really been addressed fully. If the format is allowed the full capacity to grow, then power value will never decrease, it will only increase. Trust me when I say this, the collectability of cards makes a huge difference. And if a format is a pt or gp, this factor will make a noticeable increase. Don't believe me. Here are a few things to consider.

1.) The fact that it is extremely difficult--and only done by a few players over a long period of time--to win back the amount of money spent on unlimited power 9, the cards are purchased for more than just being able to play with them. The cards have status, style, and collectability too.

2.) Look at the difference in price between black border and white border power. $1000 for unlimited, $2500 for alpha/beta black lotus. The price difference in moxen is ~$200. If the sole reason for buying power 9 was to be able to play with them, and make a profit from them, not only would unlimited power 9 be just about the cost of alpha/beta, but the price of power 9 would be back to were it was years ago.

3.) More than anything, the popularity of a format (type 1) is going to dictate the price of vintage cards. While it can be argued, and might be true on a smaller scale, that power 9/mana drain/workshops/bazaars will drop in value initially if 15+proxies are allowed, I believe the general resulting growth will greatly outweigh the impact on prices. Look at the format currently, and where it used to be. The format has grown greatly over the past couple years, even with 10 proxies allowed. The growth in power prices/vintage card prices is directly related to the popularity of the format.

As I have said before, power 9 etc. do not warant enough of an advantage to be able to win back the $3000 or $5000 spent on buying the power in the first place. (I know it can be done overtime, but simply put, winning money isn't the only reason to own power. Yes it makes your deck better, but it will not immediatley, and in many cases ever, justify spending thousands solely to win back thousands of dollars. Power 9/manadrains/expensive lands grow in price more than anything because of the growth of vintage. As long as increased proxies helps vintage grow, the price of power 9 will grow.

[Komatteru]

JD:
I'm not saying that they won't do more P9 events - I'm saying that it is a possibility that we need to be prepared to face.  I assumed no more for the purposes of a hypothetical to illustrate a point.

The reason I started this dialogue now instead of six months from now is becuase six months from now it will be too late.  I think that increasing the number of proxies for the SCG events could help draw in more people and make it more likely that these events will continue.  See my point? 

Ok, but I think that's an entirely different subject for debate--a very interesting one at that.

[Godder]

I remember most of the figures - so this is working from memory:

SCG I - Richmond last july: 167 people.

SCG II: Richmond Again: 88 people
This was right after Gencon.  This was the same time a pre-release.

SCG III: Chicago: 136 people

SCG IV: Richmond Again: like 58 people - there was a huge ice storm in Virginia which caused them to do another pre-release the following weekend.  People in Virginia are pussies when it comes to bad weather.

SCG V: Syracuse?: 136 people - Kevin won this one. 5 proxies

SCG VI: Chicago: 154 people - Trinisphere just restricted (I think this was five proxies - correct me if I'm wrong - i wasn't there)

SCG VII: Richmond: 110 people - 10 proxy

SCG VIII: Rochester 176 people - 10 proxy - but also pros showed up. 

I think i've got all those numbers right.  If not, I'm pretty close.  I didn't attend two of them. 

Clearly the Chicago and Syracuse markets are growing while Richmond fell dramatically and then has picked up again. 

Compare that to Gencon 2003: 188 people and 2004: 154 people.  and Waterbury this past year 202 in Jan. and then 145ish people in the spring. 

The numbers fluctate to be sure.  But I think the up to ten proxies has certainly helped.  I think it definately had an impact on The Richmond turnout.  I think one key test will be to see if it has an impact on Chicago.

I agree that additional proxies and prize support has helped, and additional proxies (say 12 or 15) would probably increase turnout as well, but it may well be reaching a point of diminishing returns, particularly taking card sales for/at an event into account.

Assuming you're there or thereabouts on the numbers (they look about right), there have been ~1025 players who have attended so far, for total entry fees of ~$30,750. I'm not saying that SCG has necessarily made money, but I don't think they're losing either (especially if you ignore the storm-affected SCG IV). It's also an excellent public relations exercise, if one looks at it from the sponsorship point of view (as an organiser of chess tournaments, the sponsorship angle is one I know quite well...).

[shade88]

Keep in mind, that if scg has 125 players per tournament, making $3750, they are making a huge profit.This can also be seen by the fact that scg recently added a booster box worth of italian legends to the prize structure. Starcitygames buys power 9 for much less then the average person, power 9 might cost scg roughly $2000.

When it is all said and done, starcitygames makes much more than just a monetary profit from the prizes to cost ratio. Having 12-15 proxies allows for diversified decks, and since those proxies are for expensive cards, people still have to buy chepaer ones from starcity booths. Starcity also buys cards on hand at the tournaments iirc.

Not only do the scg tournaments help with public relations(as has been mentioned), but they help starcitygames online sales. By creating such a large, popular format for vintage, starcitygames sells many more cards online. Having premium memberships not only helps starcitygames because you have to pay money for it, but people have accounts already set up, and this makes it much easier to buy cards. Many of these cards made popular by scg tournaments.

My point is this. Many of the profits starcitygames receives aren't from the cash they make directly off tournaments. The profit comes from other areas.

[yespuhyren]

Keep in mind, that if scg has 125 players per tournament, making $3750, they are making a huge profit.This can also be seen by the fact that scg recently added a booster box worth of italian legends to the prize structure. Starcitygames buys power 9 for much less then the average person, power 9 might cost scg roughly $2000.

When it is all said and done, starcitygames makes much more than just a monetary profit from the prizes to cost ratio. Having 12-15 proxies allows for diversified decks, and since those proxies are for expensive cards, people still have to buy chepaer ones from starcity booths. Starcity also buys cards on hand at the tournaments iirc.

Not only do the scg tournaments help with public relations(as has been mentioned), but they help starcitygames online sales. By creating such a large, popular format for vintage, starcitygames sells many more cards online. Having premium memberships not only helps starcitygames because you have to pay money for it, but people have accounts already set up, and this makes it much easier to buy cards. Many of these cards made popular by scg tournaments.

My point is this. Many of the profits starcitygames receives aren't from the cash they make directly off tournaments. The profit comes from other areas.

I also think they make a lot of profit from people selling P9 specifically to them at larger Type 1 Events.  I know they updated the site with 20 or 30 something pieces of Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited power.  Doing the math, buying the worst condition set available, of UL p9 costs 3850, and the most expensive would probably be about 5000 or so, while the most expensive set of Beta P9 is 7600.  This is for a set of UNLIMITED POWER.  Therefore, I believe this is where most of the profits come from, and thats why I feel they are going to continue to want to run large T1 events, as there is so many sources of income for them.

[crazedpenguinman]

As far as making a "good" proxy goes; I have had sucess with ripping the foil off a foil card. Yes, I actually turned that foil cackling imp into something useful- a mox jet. The cards have a very VERY small difference in thinkness and, unlike championship or CE cards you can play them in white or non-opaque sleeves.

[shade88]

Keep in mind, that if scg has 125 players per tournament, making $3750, they are making a huge profit.This can also be seen by the fact that scg recently added a booster box worth of italian legends to the prize structure. Starcitygames buys power 9 for much less then the average person, power 9 might cost scg roughly $2000.

When it is all said and done, starcitygames makes much more than just a monetary profit from the prizes to cost ratio. Having 12-15 proxies allows for diversified decks, and since those proxies are for expensive cards, people still have to buy chepaer ones from starcity booths. Starcity also buys cards on hand at the tournaments iirc.

Not only do the scg tournaments help with public relations(as has been mentioned), but they help starcitygames online sales. By creating such a large, popular format for vintage, starcitygames sells many more cards online. Having premium memberships not only helps starcitygames because you have to pay money for it, but people have accounts already set up, and this makes it much easier to buy cards. Many of these cards made popular by scg tournaments.

My point is this. Many of the profits starcitygames receives aren't from the cash they make directly off tournaments. The profit comes from other areas.

I also think they make a lot of profit from people selling P9 specifically to them at larger Type 1 Events. I know they updated the site with 20 or 30 something pieces of Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited power. Doing the math, buying the worst condition set available, of UL p9 costs 3850, and the most expensive would probably be about 5000 or so, while the most expensive set of Beta P9 is 7600. This is for a set of UNLIMITED POWER. Therefore, I believe this is where most of the profits come from, and thats why I feel they are going to continue to want to run large T1 events, as there is so many sources of income for them.

It is another point that star city is effectively selling a set of power 9 at each tournament, for full price. They can effectively start a cycle, buying power 9 for cheap, then selling it back for over a grand in profit at the next tournament, not to mention online.

[Godder]

It is another point that star city is effectively selling a set of power 9 at each tournament, for full price. They can effectively start a cycle, buying power 9 for cheap, then selling it back for over a grand in profit at the next tournament, not to mention online.

They'd be better off just selling the power and packs, if that's all it was about, particularly given the cost of staff and venue hire (somewhere around $500 – $1000, depending on how many people they have on staff for the day). It's also about the public relations and advertising, the increased demand and prices for cards (not just Power, Workshops, Mana Drains, but also cards like Duals, FoW, Academy, YawgWin and other such staples), buying and selling cards both at the event and beforehand, and so on. There's also the additional Premium subscriptions people sign up for so they can see the coverage (granted that's more to do with the Premium budgets than the event itself) and so they can prepare for the event (tech articles etc.).

[shade88]

It is another point that star city is effectively selling a set of power 9 at each tournament, for full price. They can effectively start a cycle, buying power 9 for cheap, then selling it back for over a grand in profit at the next tournament, not to mention online.

They'd be better off just selling the power and packs, if that's all it was about, particularly given the cost of staff and venue hire (somewhere around $500 – $1000, depending on how many people they have on staff for the day). It's also about the public relations and advertising, the increased demand and prices for cards (not just Power, Workshops, Mana Drains, but also cards like Duals, FoW, Academy, YawgWin and other such staples), buying and selling cards both at the event and beforehand, and so on. There's also the additional Premium subscriptions people sign up for so they can see the coverage (granted that's more to do with the Premium budgets than the event itself) and so they can prepare for the event (tech articles etc.).

Before you post, please read my post 4 above yours that says basically everything you just said.

How do you figure it costs them $1000 to run the tourny. My local regionals cost the rent of a room(much smaller room for scg) and the pay of 4 judges.

[ROLAND]

Don't forget that SCG is a business that sells magic cards. These tournaments help build them a reputation of being a great place to get magic cards. This can only help their business. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a little more.

I hope they keep hosting. I 'd like to attend one when I get a little more time.

Roland

[Godder]

Before you post, please read my post 4 above yours that says basically everything you just said.

Since you quoted yourself in the post I was replying to, I had the opportunity to read it twice. Your last statement left an obvious question (why not just sell the power and packs if that's all SCG is getting out of it?) in the air, so I supplied an answer. Because I didn't want to make it any longer than it needed to be, I wrote my own summary to go with it. What I also wanted to get across was that you didn't include room rental or staffing concerns in your post, which is basically the difference between gross profit (the grand you mentioned would be Revenue less Cost of Goods Sold) and net profit (gross profit less other costs such as the aforementioned room hire and staff), as well as opportunity cost (i.e. why bother if the tournament is only making enough to 'buy' the prizes at the online prices?).

How do you figure it costs them $1000 to run the tourny. My local regionals cost the rent of a room(much smaller room for scg) and the pay of 4 judges.

Depending on where you go, room rentals vary. The Richmond Convention Centre, for example, looks expensive going by the website, so I wouldn't be surprised if the cost was around $200 for one day (I also wouldn't be surprised if Pete has a discount rate based on return business, of course). Equipment (e.g. tables and chairs) and/or room set-up may be extra, too.

For Staff, it depends on how much you pay them, how many of them you have, and where they come from (for example, I highly doubt that Sheldon Menery paid his own way to Atlanta to Head Judge Regionals there). There will be a Head Judge, and at least two table judges, plus someone to handle pairings and results, and SCG P9s offer certification as well (that may be an extra experienced judge required, or it could just be a source of cheap labour). If it's being held elsewhere, someone from SCG will have to fly/drive to where-ever to supervise things, stay for however long, as well as buy and sell cards and supplies. If side events are being held (quite likely...), someone needs to run them (paid for out of profits from said side events, hopefully).

Bear in mind that since these aren't sanctioned, funds and/or cheap product isn't available as it would be for Wizards-sponsored events (Regionals, States, Nationals, PTQs etc.), so if boxes of product are being used as payment, they cost substantially more than they would for other major tournaments.

Is $1000 too much? Probably, but that was an unlikely upper estimate. That said, $500 is probably on the low side as well.

Don't forget that SCG is a business that sells magic cards. These tournaments help build them a reputation of being a great place to get magic cards. This can only help their business. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a little more.

A good reputation is Goodwill, and you've basically summed up everything we've been discussing with the last sentence there .

[jpmeyer]

As it's been stated above, making fake power is counterfeiting.  You can't do this.  I'm not sure on the proxies like the gamingetc one's, but I'll assume they're OK.  However, maybe this is just me, but when I see "good-looking" proxy power like those, they ironically don't signify "Black Lotus" or "Mox Pearl" to me while the "terrible" scribbled-on basic lands do because they have been used as the standard card to proxy on for a long time.

(I should note that while they are really clear and helpful, you really can't deal with using stickers or paper inserts with the Oracle wordings because these change the shape or thickness of the cards in the sleeve.)

Also, I think a real issue to pay attention to is GP Philly.  Force of Will is at $20 and duals start at at least that much, so hopefully that tourney won't cause a huge permanent price spike in those cards.

One last note: I've noticed that higher proxy counts allow people to experiment more with techy sideboard or maindeck cards.  For example, a few days before the tourney, you got the bright idea of say, siding in Land Equilibrium in Fish or something and it actually worked well in the testing that you did the next day.  The problem though is that while Land Equilibrium isn't an expensive card, it's unlikely that SCG will bring some with them, it's not the most likely thing for you to be able to find locally, and you won't receive it in time if you eBay it.  If you're going to a 5 proxy tourney, you'd be stuck, but if it's a 10 proxy you'd probably have a little bit of wiggle room and thus be able to run your tech.

[aTn]

@Martyr: The proxies you suggest, posted on http://gamingetc.safeshopper.com/1607/cat1607.htm?39 ,  are not legal (for example the exact name of the card is not written - lotus what ?!?! black lotus, lotus petal ??) and so are useless for tournaments.

To be fair, putting the full name on the card (instead of "Jet" for "Mox Jet") would probably have attracted unwanted legal attention.

Thats pretty weak in my opinion.  I saw those proxies too, and although I don't need them, I thought it would be cool to get for my friend, as he doesn't have full P9.  Anyone who questions what "lotus" on a card that says "power 9" all over it shouldn't be playing T1.

The question is not wether a player would know it's a lotus, it's rather if a judge would accept such a proxy in a tournament, and the fact is, the current rules for making proxies would not permit one to use them in a tournament.

[Mark_Story]

I'm surprised to hear that proxy-tax isn't a more standard practice in the US.  I know that in Toronto and surrounding areas, that proxy-tax is pretty much the rule.  You sometimes get 5 proxies for free, but the rest up to 10-15 are $0.50 to $1.00 per.  As a non powered player I think that is a totally acceptable system.  If I don't have the cash to buy power (which I don't) then paying a small fee to be able to play with it isn't so bad.  On the plus side it makes the prize pool bigger, or gives TO's more incentive to hold more events.  This also seems to be a more acceptable scheme to the local players who have power.  They paid for or won their power, and deserve to play with them. 

One thing we have to realize, is that there is NO possible way for all the vintage players in the world to be powered.  The cards simply do not exist.  Card have been locked up in binders, dealers, lost, destroyed, etc.  This reduces the supply even more.  Beyond the simple economics of price, there is a limited pool of cards, that pool grows smaller each year, making it less possible for everyone to have power.  So unfortunately proxies are here to stay.  Proxies are ugly, and aren't nearly as nice as the real thing, but they are a reality that we have to deal with.

I don't think there are any players who wouldn't want to own power, but it is seriously not feasible to everyone.  I don't think that the inability to slap down 4K for some cards should be a limitation to play a game that you enjoy. 

I think the fake power is a good step, but they would need to be indistinguishable from authentic MTG cards.  I have seen judges force players to re-sleeve because of uneven wear from alpha cards, or slightly transparent sleeves, through which the alpha cards could be discerned.  With your proxies having different backs, you would have to absolutely ensure your sleeves are opaque.  Furthermore, I don't think accurate proxies can ever be made without the consent of wizards/hasbro.  There are too many legal implications to try and make proxies with full text.  The mana symbols, card types, etc are trademarked.  Not to mention the card layout, and text is all copyrighted.   

[ROLAND]

.

The question is not wether a player would know it's a lotus, it's rather if a judge would accept such a proxy in a tournament, and the fact is, the current rules for making proxies would not permit one to use them in a tournament.

Since none of these tournaments are sanctioned by Wizards. Do proxy rules really matter? Shouldn't they be up to the TO & judges at each event?

 If the judges and the tournament organizer can agree that a card with "Lotus" on it represents a Black Lotus. What is the big deal? 

If all participants are informed about the proxies and what they look like, no one should complain.  The key to the proxy argument is clear communication between all people involved in the tournament. 

 If I were a judge I would accept the proxies being sold by gamingetc, because once established that each card is represented by the proxy no one has the right to complain that they don't know what the card is.

Roland

[aTn]

I agree with you 100% Roland. I was just saying that the current proxy rules issued by SCG do not allow them. I would be really happy to see that change so that players could use them in SCG events.