[Deck Discussion] Meandeck Ichorid

[Disburden]

  I'm not trying to be insulting, but wouldn't your board be weak if you have to dedicate four slots to filler?  I never liked thug, I always thought that it was just bad, I never liked seeing it when it came up. What do you used those slots you mentioned for (matches)? Have you tried Brainstorm in the sideboard?

  To clear things up when I said Grim Long runs moxen in the sideboard I was addressing Chrome mox for the Combo match back when the board was different.

[houseplant]

  I'm not trying to be insulting, but wouldn't your board be weak if you have to dedicate four slots to filler?  I never liked thug, I always thought that it was just bad, I never liked seeing it when it came up. What do you used those slots you mentioned for (matches)? Have you tried Brainstorm in the sideboard?

  To clear things up when I said Grim Long runs moxen in the sideboard I was addressing Chrome mox for the Combo match back when the board was different.

i didn't have 4 slots held for filler, I had 4 slots that I needed to fill at 5am before the turnament, i couldn't think of anything that would help so I through some cards in that could make it faster.

I like the thug because not only does it dredge, its black and can be thrown to ichorid, or pitched to unmask. i'd run some main but there isn't any room.

I didn't try brainstorm SB because I had careful study main. i'm not advocating anyone else using that sideboard. i just usually play in small type 1 turny's where there are a lot of random slow decks.  at the turnament i went to with that probably wasn't the greatest since most of the decks were slaver and dragon and such, the only one i brought that stuff in for was some guy was playing SS, so i took out the laylines for that.

its really if layline does nothing to the deck, but there isn't really anyreason to bring in null rod or pithing needle I bring in some of that. maybe the 3 chains 1 sapphire.

if I was going to some large type 1 turny then I would have planned my sideboard out better, but really I just couldn't think of 4 more cards and I couldn't find the root mazes so I went with that.

[Disburden]

Your meta seems to play a lot of aggro is this correct? Why not try Balance in your sideboard? This card is really good vs random aggro, I was running it for a while.

[houseplant]

Your meta seems to play a lot of aggro is this correct? Why not try Balance in your sideboard? This card is really good vs random aggro, I was running it for a while.

I used to run balance main but took it out mainly because when I see it it makes me want to do stupid things, like keep a hand only because i can play out my hand then balance with no cards in my hand. When really there wasn't anything else in my hand to go on so everytime i tried that at a tournament it got forced then i was stuck in topdeck mode in a deck that is probably the worst at top decking ever. there isn't anything wrong with balance, really its my fault, but why risk me doing stupid play errors when I don't have to.

now in the sideboard, thats actually a really good idea, it'll give the card a different meaning in the deck so I wont think of it as how I did when it was main. and it usually will be a wrath for W1 which will also probably take out most of there lands. I'll try it in the sideboard at the next tourny I bring the deck too.


edit:  yeah, my meta usually turns out to be a bunch of Aggro decks with maybe 1 or 2 combo. they are small tournaments.

[EnialisLiadon]

With 4 open slots in your sb, did you ever give Root Maze a try?  Whether or not Smennen came up with the idea of using it Ichorid, my hat's off to him for doing so.  It's a very solid, underused card (it just had to be green...) that really shines in Ichorid.

I also agree with the Balance suggestion, even though it can be rather hard to cast.

[BreathWeapon]

There's nothing about Unmask that makes it dependant on Leyline of the Void in Ichorid, I'd include the card with out a moment of hesitation in the main deck; I think it's the one card that managed to make Ichorid viable against the field.

I couldn't afford a play set of Needles when I took this deck to a local tournament, and instead I used Oxidize. I find Oxidize may arguably be the superior card, because it answers dedicated hate like Ensnaring Bridge, Caltrops, Eon Hub and Granite Shard and it can't be Welded out for an artifact discarded to Bazaar of Baghdad.

I'll put together a tournament reoport from the event I had this weekend,

[BreathWeapon]

I don't think there is an objective best list for Ichorid, however some lists are stronger than others given the metagame; and I think lists with Unmask fall into the first category. As for my reasoning, I find Unmask to be a crucial card in the race against Combo, Combo-Control and useful against Slaver and Oath. Ichorid by itself isn't fast enough to race Grim or Gifts in most instances, and discarding a business spell is what brings the opponent to Ichorid's speed. Against the rest of the field, Unmask removing a random hate card on the play always brings a sigh of relief and takes the weight off Chain of Vapor. The card simply has so much synergy with Ichorid; it has no casting cost making it an ideal disruption card, it improves Cabal Therapy's effectiveness and even its alternate casting cost can be circumvented by dredging a Stinkweed Imp, Golgari Thug or Darkblast.

Steve didn't aske me to believe anything, I came to the conclusion of Unmask being good in the deck all by myself (tho' Steve suggested it). I think I've taken the deck in as many possible directions as it can go, from cutting Balance and Time Walk, cutting Crop Rotation and Strip Mine, cutting the Brainstorms/Careful Studies for Gamble, cutting Underground Sea and Mox Sapphire, moving to a U/B manabase and moving Leyline of the Void between the MD and SB etc.

I don't think the deck is putting up results, as it is, because it's one of the most difficult decks in the format to pilot and suffers from the same problem as Dragon, it's a deck that uses a TON of bad cards to make a good deck.

Edit: I didn't replace Chain of Vapor with Oxidize, I replaced it with Pithing Needle. Chain of Vapor and Oxidize serve two entirely different functions in the deck, and thus are not comparable to one another.

As far as thinking outside of the box goes, has any one tested using Stifle in the MD or SB? Being able to destroy Fetch Lands, protect against Wastelands, destroy Tormod's Crypt, Time Walks on Oath of Druids, Goblin Welder, Bazaar of Baghdad and end the game against Tendrils and Dragon makes it a great card for U. McGiver couldn't do half of that with a roll of duck tape and a pocket knife. Short of not being able to answer DSC (which isn't that relevant considering this deck can either prevent it with Chalice or race it) or Leyline of the Void (which is decreasing in popularity) the card does everything Chain of Vapor does and a lot more.

[Neonico]

I piloted it to a top 4 with 3 stifle sideboard. Seems to be a great card, instead of Rootmaze actually, considering how rampant is combo, at least in my meta.

[BreathWeapon]

Just curious where other people were on this deck, I know a lot of people have shelved it in favor of a deck that doesn't fold in the face of hate, but I'm the persistant type. I came to the realization that Leyline of Void isn't worth it in the MD, Storm Combo just wins with Necropotence or Draw7's and the match up against Gifts and Slaver is good regardless. So, I decided to go full circle and add the cantrip engine back into the deck, 4 Brainstorm and 4 Careful Study, for two reasons. First, it makes the deck as consistant as possible with out Bazaar of Baghdad, and it supports the best SB card this deck could ask for, Force of Will.

With 9 MD blue cards you can now SB in 4 Force of Will and 4 Chain of Vapor on the draw, which allows the deck to deal with situations it couldn't before against decks with permanent based disruption. I've also removed Pithing Needle for Stifle, because the cards effectively serves the same role against hate and Stifle adds an additional disruption element against control and combo in the form of land destruction and countering Tendrils or Dragon etc.

You really should see an Oath player's expression when he's looking across the table at an Ichorid deck that has 21 blue cards, 4 Force to stop the suicide Oath plan and 8 Time Walks for when it resolves.

Oh, and Lotus Petal got cut for Mox Sapphire.

[warwizard87]

actually the layline build is fine, it gives you a non-counterable,non-duressable,non-mana disruption. force of will only counters the duress before they combo out turn 1. to be honest the 5 color friggorid is more consistant, and more prone to draw answers then the 2 color version

[BreathWeapon]

Neither of those statements can be defended, a competent Grim Long player will simply search for an alternate way to kill you with either Mind's Desire, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence or Draw7's. Once I started two fisting the match up I found Leyline of the Void made no significant difference, and it was in fact a disruption card for Gifts, Slaver and Dragon and not Tendrils. I fail to see how the 5 color deck is more consistant and prone to draw answers, I have 4 more cantrips and fetch lands to shuffle after a Brainstorm and my Dredge is that much better.

I don't SB Force of Will against Combo unless I'm on the draw, and at the very least it causes them to have to Duress before they combo off instead of ignore me.

[President Skroob]

I haven't posted in this thread, but I've been watching it for a little while. I've been playing the deck for a little bit, and I've been trying to find odd ways to improve it.

One thing I've found, and probably the most important to me, is that the deck can't be made significantly faster. I've tried adding in card drawing engines such as Skullclamp and Mystic Remora to both speed up the dredge engine and also become a draw outlet in order to maintain a possible hand in midgame in order to avoid simply topdecking. Neither of these performed as I would have liked, though. Mystic Remora was nice, but it fouled up other, more ideal first turn plays because of the U casting cost. It can also be played around to a certain extent. Skullclamp was nice, but it often became one of those "win more" cards that didn't actually add significant strength to the deck.

Mishra's Bauble might be an interesting addition because it is either an extra dredge or a business card, except that you can make the decision with full knowledge of what the top card will be. There's not a lot of extra space in the deck, though, so I'm not sure it makes the cut.

In light of the evidence that the deck cannot really be made any faster, than to make the deck better it must use the slots remaining to make it more resilient. I recently jumped on the Unmask bandwagon, but I have not gotten a chance to test it in actual play.

Like BreathWeapon, I cut it down from 5 color awhile ago down to just UB, and I haven't really even though about going back since. Balance and Crop Rotation just weren't doing it for me, and once those are cut I can get rid of those silly Gemstone Mines which had a nasty tendency to stab me in the back just when I was trying to gain a secure foothold on the game.

I didn't think Force of Will could make the cut, but I am interested to try it out and see how it pans in my personal testing. Powerful disruption of that kind is something that could really go a long way for the deck in holding off the opponent for the few turns Ichorid needs to secure the board for a win.

[warwizard87]

Neither of those statements can be defended, a competent Grim Long player will simply search for an alternate way to kill you with either Mind's Desire, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence or Draw7's. Once I started two fisting the match up I found Leyline of the Void made no significant difference, and it was in fact a disruption card for Gifts, Slaver and Dragon and not Tendrils. I fail to see how the 5 color deck is more consistant and prone to draw answers, I have 4 more cantrips and fetch lands to shuffle after a Brainstorm and my Dredge is that much better.

I don't SB Force of Will against Combo unless I'm on the draw, and at the very least it causes them to have to Duress before they combo off instead of ignore me.

never said it was a solution to grim long, it acts more as a time walk vs grime long making  it harder for grim long to win ( yo have to admit Y. will is the best and easiest combo out) it takes out the main victory path, i never said it stoped the combo entirly,
In light of the evidence that the deck cannot really be made any faster, than to make the deck better it must use the slots remaining to make it more resilient. I recently jumped on the Unmask bandwagon, but I have not gotten a chance to test it in actual play.

"Like BreathWeapon, I cut it down from 5 color awhile ago down to just UB, and I haven't really even though about going back since. Balance and Crop Rotation just weren't doing it for me, and once those are cut I can get rid of those silly Gemstone Mines which had a nasty tendency to stab me in the back just when I was trying to gain a secure foothold on the game."

well i dislike rotation but i do like balance it helps win random match-ups at early rounds. good thing baout the 5 colot base it allowes access to a really great tutor for the deck gamble, yes it works.

[BreathWeapon]

I think Gamble is the only reason I would play a 5c manabase. I have tried removing the cantrip engine for 4 Gamble, 1 Crop Rotation, 1 Balance, 1 Chain of Vapor and 1 Darkblast and the deck was FUN as hell. The problem tho' is that it became so reliant on Bazaar of Baghdad, because Putrid Imp is so slow with out a cantrip. You would have to make dangerous plays like Gambling for a Chain of Vapor if you had a Pithing Needle on board, but playing this deck can be suicidal any way so you had may as well push the envelope if you don't want to try the U/b version.

I think this was the list for anybody who is crazy enough to pilot it,

"Gambling Man"

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Putrid Imp

4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Strip Mine

4 Gamble
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Crop Rotation

1 Balance
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast

1 Ancestral Recall

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

SB

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ray of Revelation
4 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor

Gamble has so many insane applications, and it improves your mulligans when your looking at hands with Putrid Imp and Gamble. If your really crazy, you can Gamble for Chalice of the Void if you have an outlet in hand and hope they don't hit either. Gambling for Balance and Strip Mine can be devestating, and Chain of Vapor and Darkblast can be life saving. You can always pin an Ichorid, Ashen Ghoul, Golgari Grave Troll, Stinkweed Imp or Cabal Therapy and out of the SB you get Ray of Revelation. Gambling for Pithing Needle is surprisingly not that hot, but if you can play it on the same turn it's worth a shot.

[warwizard87]

i onlky ran 1 at scgs charollett but i never disliked drawing it, i basicly just addeded it to vamp tutur, imp seal to give me 3 effects to serch out answers and turn 1 bazzars.

[BreathWeapon]

I had a similar experience with Gamble when I releasized my Crop Rotation was on loan to either a Long or Stax player, I can't remember. I managed to draw the card a lot in that tournament, and I sort of fell in love with it. Steve mentioned it in one of his early threads on the deck, but his team refused to test it (lame). This pushes the idea to its logical extension, on the basis that if Steve's last list could diregard all cantrips and retain its releative speed then this makes the deck more consistant, faster and gives it just as many possible answers.

[nataz]

here's the thing about gamble as a single. I really want to like it, but I keep running into one basic problem.

t1: Gemstone, -> gamble for bazaar, discard 1 *possibly bazaar or chalice * pass.

vs.

t1: gemstone, -> cropper for bazaar -> draw 2, discard 3 cards of your choice.

Crop rotation puts bazaar into play, ready to be used immediately. Gamble can not only lose a critical card from hand (i.e, chalice/bazaar), but also doesn't let you draw off the bazaar until turn 2.

not to mention Gamble is slow, way slower then vamp, or god-forbid imp seal, both of which I'm always on the verge of cutting.

Plus if you cut the cantrip engine, the loss of brainstorm/careful study means you only draw 3 cards per/turn unless you happen to have multiple bazaars out. Since you can't use gamble reliably past the 2-3 turn, you can't really count them as extra draw, cutting you off from plays such as: bazaar 2 on upkeep, dredge 1 on draw step, and then brainstorm for 3(!) on your MP.

The extra 3 draws (2 with careful study) is insane, and pretty much is the difference between wining on turn 3-4 and wining on turn 5-6.

From my testing Gamble actually makes the deck slower in practice, and that is the last thing ichorid needs.

[BreathWeapon]

It depends, I don't see how Gamble is slower than Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal considering the land drop issue makes Bazaar of Baghdad active on the next turn regardless and Gamble gives you an actual top deck after casting it at the cost of a card in your grave yard you didn't want in the first place. Gamble also has a habbit of not being countered, and when it is it doesn't cost you a land. If you have an active Bazaar of Baghdad I feel having a cantrip to feed off it is usually irrelevant, because Bazaar is the card that lets you win on turn 3-5 not a cantrip. If you really want a similar effect you can always Gamble for Ancestral Recall or go for broke on Balance. What's more so, Gamble as your last card in hand is not so bad, instead of being a cantrip and Dredging more you can either find another Ichorid to attack with or a Cabal Therapy to slow them down. I've found myself to be faster and more consistant with better access to Chalice of the Void should I take the 33% risk on the play or have two outlets in hand. Yes, having the opponent discard your Bazaar sucks, but its risk vs reward that matters.

Granted it is not a deck for the light of heart and I am not certain I would advocate it over my U/b cantrip build, but it is the only reason I can see to keep a 5c manabase unless you are in love with Crop Rotation.

Edit: I just read "as a single" but instead of deleting the post I thought I'd let it stand.

[houseplant]

I find most of the time I'm using gamble or a tutor other than crop rotation I'm mainly looking for chalice, maybe chains. i either have bazaar, or i have a way of playing around it, say putrid imp and careful study. and its first turn and i really want a chalice, if I was using vamp or imperial it would be too late since by the time I got it they have probably played a bunch of their moxen and such. its not a replacement for crop rotation or vampiric tutor in my deck, its in addition to, so it gives me the chance of having a 1 mana DT.

[BreathWeapon]

I found that I wanted to disprove this Gamble nonsense as quickly as possible.  I took the time to play a few games with Gamble... and found that I somewhat enjoyed it.  Here, you can cast Gamble on the first turn instead of casting Brainstorm if you're trying to find something that you need, but I still find that I am wishing for Bazaar the majority of the time that I cast Gamble, or any tutor for that matter. Also, I do not support your decision to play with twelve mana sources.  Gamble has slowed the deck a little, and this makes using Gemstone Mine in an efficient manner difficult. 

You would have to make dangerous plays like Gambling for a Chain of Vapor if you had a Pithing Needle on board, but playing this deck can be suicidal any way so you had may as well push the envelope if you don't want to try the U/b version.

So, you're saying that if your Bazaar is taken out of commission, your only hope is that you draw another one, or you have many dredge cards in your graveyard.  This seems like the opposite of what you want if you want a good match against quick Tendrils combo.  Gamble is not your greatest card past turn one,  and since you want specific cards in your hand moreso as the game goes on, this risk that is associated with Gamble is rather unacceptable.  I would rather have my critical loss in a tournament come to my mistakes than not getting that card I needed because of luck.

Yes, having the opponent discard your Bazaar sucks, but its risk vs reward that matters.

You do know that your opponent does not have to choose the card, correct?  I would much rather decide by a dice throw than an opponent's intuition in a tournament which card goes to the bin.

None of that made sense to me,

How does combo take Bazaar of Baghdad out of commission? If Fish or Stax uses a Wasteland on it I can still use Putrid Imp as a back up plan, the only difference is that instead of having between 0 and 8 cantrips depending on the build being played is the relative speed at which I manage to gold fish. Considering Fish and Stax are the slowest decks in the format and wont pose any threat until they can manage to remove Putrid Imp I'm fine.

Considering that Steve's back up plan of Bazaaring once and then using a cantrip after that in case it is Wasted is really bad, I'd rather Gamble for another Bazaar of Baghdad even if I only had a 50/50 chance of it resolving and Gambling for Ancestral Recall with Putrid Imp on the board is the same as Brainstorm accept you get a Time Walk by being able to discard your Dredge instead of putting them on top of your deck.

You completely contradicted yourself by saying that the deck wants specific cards in the late game and then saying that this makes Gamble bad. Gamble gets you any card you want in the late game with a 50/50 chance of resolving if you have two cards in hand or you can Entomb Golgari Grave Troll, Ichorid, Cabal Therapy or even Darkblast to either speed you up or slow the opponent down.

Saying that Gamble slows the deck down is inaccurate, having 4 more tutors for Bazaar of Baghdad speeds the deck up because you don't have to rely on Putrid Imp and Brainstorm, mulligan for Bazaar of Baghdad and Gamble gives you a top deck as opposed to Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal and if it manages to discard a Dredge you are a turn faster. Saying Gamble has bad synergy with Gemstone Mine is also suspect, if Gamble was Brainstorm you'd lose the same amount of mana and not have half as good of a chance at finding Bazaar of Baghdad. Not to mention once Bazaar of Baghdad goes active after a Gamble you'll have 2 draw steps and 2 Bazaar of Baghdad activations to find another mana source as opposed to Brainstorm revealing nothing and then making you wait two more turns before you can return to top deck.

If you want more mana sources cut Darkblast and Chain of Vapor, but I think Mox Sapphire and Underground Sea are terrible and every one else I know has been running on 12 sources.

I'd rather lose to luck in a tournament than my own play mistakes, but that's just me. Gamble in Ichorid is like Draw 7s in combo, yeah they can screw you but more often than not they bring home the win.

Oh, and I'd rather give my opponent the chance to use his intuition and pull the Bazaar of Baghdad and feel like a champion than be a wuss and let him roll a die. Unless ofcouse my opponent has Jedi mind powers, but then his ability to use telekinesis on the dice would discard the Bazaar any way.

[warwizard87]

I perfer the dice honestly, it helps keep the game more honest.  Day 2 i made the mistake of casting gamble laying the cards out and reaching for the dice my opponent *Who i believe saw i was going to use the dice* and quickly picked a card. I said i wanted to roll for it, he said he would rather pick. It being early and i was sleepy and let him, although i was  a bit agitated that he would not roll for it, he picked the bazaar making me lose the game but i still managed to win game 3. Long story short use the dice, not opponent's choice. Every judge will back you up on that. Dice=random Opponent pick = not.

 BreathWeapon:
Great post you  got it all right =D, except the random discard part.

[warwizard87]

I top 8d with gamble and not brainstorm? does that trumpet loud enough?

[warwizard87]

You said to do your own testing and stop barning right?

honestly, i posted results

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=17855
and won a mox jet at the same time.

The cantrip reasoning is not only backed by my results but by a player much better then i am.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12167.html

Who states the same thing i also decided on.

"What about Brainstorm? Brainstorm is amazing, to be sure. But Brainstorm is most useful following Putrid Imp or a dredge with Bazaar that has been Wastelanded. In the metagame that is light on Fish or Stax, this cards utility dip"

No doubt brainstorms dredge can be nice, but it is not neccesary and more often then not i found it added to much strain on my already hard up mana base, so i -1 chrome mox (Honestly it was serius card disadvantage) poped in gamble as tutor #3

In all honesty though he did not try gamble, but had steven tried it i am pretty sure he would of praised it. It should never be more then of a 2 of in ichorid. It is amazing early but risky late game, however, late game it is equal RED mana=1 more ichorid in yard. And other times late game it is that 50/50 shot that says "do you feel lucky punk". 

I chucked the dead wood i felt was stripmine and had a tough cut in crop rotation ( its good but with so few spells it IS normalythe first thing counterd) and added 2 main deck needles. BTW maindeck needles are incredable. I beat dragon round 1 by turn 1 needle naming bazzar then therapying my self for my gravetrolls. Then in round 3 vs 2 land belcher, my opponet poped out a turn 2 belcher and i eoted vamp tutored for needle and slamed it down on my turn for the win.
 
Don't discount gamble play around with it, NEVER play it as a 4 off, thats just silly. It is a utility card one half entomb and one half vamp tutor, so play it like it is =D

EDIT: ignore the sideboard Extracts i was hard up for 3 more sideboard cards and had no root mazes. ANd before you dismiss Quiet Purity,  think about how good a turn 1 planer void or layline is vs this. and how bad Ray is if you don't have the flashback mana immedatly, and vs layline its completly dead =<

my current side is
3 null rod
2 pithing needle
2 chain of vapor
3 Quiet purity ( or demystiy but i have foil Quiets so meh)
2 darkblast
2 oxidise
1 balance

[BreathWeapon]

Perhaps a portion of my post was amiss, but I am dissatisfied at the way you chose to attack me.  Perhaps a more accurate term than "quick Tendrils decks" would be "decks that win the game as quick as this deck does".  Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle are played in these particular decks, and the "relative goldfish" of these decks becomes a much faster goldfish than yours.  I would rather have Brainstorms and Careful Studies to maximize my options than relying on Putrid Imps and Gambles to get what you need.

The topic your last few posts have boiled down to is the illusion that Gamble is always going to get you what you need, when you need it.  You are laboring under the fact that the correct card will always be discarded or not discarded.  Fifty/fifty odds are not acceptable in any situation whatsoever. 

If you have an active Bazaar of Baghdad I feel having a cantrip to feed off it is usually irrelevant, because Bazaar is the card that lets you win on turn 3-5 not a cantrip.

Wrong.  Without the cantrip, you take another turn to dredge the 12-18 cards that you would normally dredge with Brainstorm.  Gamble may put a card in your graveyard that you need (maybe), but if you want to do that, why aren't you running Entomb?  You've contradicted yourself on this point here. 

I'd rather lose to luck in a tournament than my own play mistakes, but that's just me. Gamble in Ichorid is like Draw 7s in combo, yeah they can screw you but more often than not they bring home the win.

If this is indeed true, then I understand why you have not bothered to produce results with this deck. 

Oh, and I'd rather give my opponent the chance to use his intuition and pull the Bazaar of Baghdad and feel like a champion than be a wuss and let him roll a die. Unless ofcouse my opponent has Jedi mind powers, but then his ability to use telekinesis on the dice would discard the Bazaar any way.

This is rather astounding.  I'm a "wuss" for following the rules and making the decision random?  You would rather risk a better chance at throwing away the win?  This is... I don't have a word for it.  Again, you prove that you do not possess the capacity to win with this deck. 

This thread has changed nearly every day with a new card being added or subtracted from the deck, and everyone has subsequently followed suit with whoever trumpets their horn the loudest.  Do your own testing, and stop barning, please.

Wow thanks for the personal attacks, ad hominem 4TW?

First, at the point where I'm in a position to make a decision between Dredging an additional 12 to 18 cards off a Brainstorm with an active Bazaar of Baghdad I have to question whether or not I have a card in my hand at all. But, saying I did, I'd be just as happy to Gamble for a Cabal Therapy with an active Bazaar of Baghdad on the board and flash back naming a card that could stall my opponent for another turn or just find another Ichorid. In these situations it's very hard to calculuate the difference between Brainstorm/Careful Study or Gamble, but I think its worth mentioning that Brainstorm was never intended to function with Bazaar of Baghdad so much as it was with Putrid Imp. Look at Steve's last list, all of the cantrips are gone and yet the fundamental speed of the deck remained roughly the same because an unapposed Bazaar of Baghdad doesn't need support to bring the game home in 4 to 5 turns.

Second I am not assuming that I always get the card in hand, otherwise I would have said I'm a total luck sack and always get the card in hand instead of posting the odds of getting the card in hand. There are plenty of times I have lost the Bazaar of Baghdad or the bullet, and every time this happens I do the same thing; replace Gamble with Brainstorm and see what the effect would have been. In most of the instances where Gamble failed and was replaced with Brainstorm, Brainstorm still managed to produce a lost game. In the sentances where I discussed putting an Ichorid, Ashen Ghoul, Golgari Grave Troll, Stinkweed Imp or Cabal Therapy in the grave yard I thought it was obvious I meant when I only had one card, Gamble, in hand. As for not playing Entomb over Gamble, what logic is this? Does Entomb find Bazaar of Baghdad or Chalice of the Void or any silver bullet? No.

Third saying a 50/50 chance is unacceptable is laughable, how do you think we determine who goes first in this format and what do you think the relative advantage of going first in this format is? You have to take a 50/50 chance with combo or prison before you even get a chance to draw your cards, and whether or not you like to admit it Magic is a game based on chance AKA luck. Every time a player resolves a Draw 7, Brainstorms etc they are taking a calculated risk, and in the riskiest deck of all in this format, Grim Long, it seems to be working for them. Saying you'd rather lose games to luck than skill is saying you've never played poker competitively, I'd much rather have made the right play and get rivered than make the wrong play and lose (or even win, well maybe not). As far as not putting up results with the deck, I live in Russia, what would you like me to do, pay 2,000 dollars and cross 11 time zones just to win a Black Lotus? There's only a hand full of guys that have power in Moscow that I know of, and we don't count because we all work for the distributers.

"Wuss" was hyperbole, I thought that would have been a tadd obvious since two comments about Jedi mind powers followed it

[Arkanis]

hello everyone. i am new to this forum. i just play friggorid with 4x bazaar, 4x polluted, 4x underground sea, 4x gemstone mine. i play the seas because i also play 2 wonder, so my creatures can fly. but it is much more difficult to include cards like balance or crop rotation then, because i dont have the white or green mana. what do you guys suggest:
a) version with seas and wonder
b) version with CoB instead of seas and some more hate cards

[warwizard87]

Flying 3/1s don't do alot in a enviroment were almost nobody blocks. The only real reason to run the undergroundsea base is so you can play cards like massacer (vs fish) or if you play the cantrip build with brainstorms and carefull studys.

[mistervader]

Here's my current board now, when I incorporated 2 copies of Pithing Needle in the maindeck:

4 Oxidize
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chain Of Vapor
2 Pithing Needle
1 Balance
1 Darkblast

That leaves me with two more slots to go.

Note that I am in a non-powered meta. What two slots belong here? I am currently not running any Chalices at all BECAUSE I'm in a non-powered meta, btw.

So yeah... two slots... 1 Golgari Thug and 1 more Darkblast, maybe? Or do you have better ideas?

[arcanis2000]

I gotta tell you that I like playing this deck.  Here is the list I played at the meandeck open last week:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Crop Rotation
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
3 Golgari Thug
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ancestral Recall

This build did do quit well despite all the mistakes that I made.  I ended up going 2-3 in rounds beating out a u/w fish, and a 2 land belcher deck.  I lost to a dragon deck(piloted by the wonderfull Doug Lynn), were I could have done something the second game to win but for some reason I just sat on my hand.  Round 3 brought me a oath deck that barely won game one, and tinkered out Collosus(forgive all my misspellings please), and by the time I found a chain of vapor I was at 9 and he was holding muddle the mixtures.  But, two other people took this build to the same tourny, one made a bunch of mistakes( in case steven didn't tell this guy went first, played the leyline for free and steven got him to say he was done), and the other was very close to top 8.  He had to win 2-0 or 2-1 and they ended up drawing, which irronicley allowed the other person who came with us, Davey, to make top 8.  But, this deck does show potential and without all the mistakes we made, I think we could have gotten it done.  I can't wait till the next one.

[mistervader]

Not bad at all. I came in fourth with this decklist:

BLACK CREATURES
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
1 Golgari Thug

GREEN CREATURES
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

BLACK SPELLS
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
1 Darkblast
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor

BLUE SPELLS
4 Brainstorm
2 Chain Of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Careful Study

GREEN SPELLS
1 Crop Rotation

ARTIFACTS
2 Pithing Needle
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal

LANDS
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City Of Brass
1 Strip Mine
1 Underground Sea

SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Oxidize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain Of Vapor
2 Null Rod
1 Balance

Anyways, a quick tournament report. Do remember that I am in a non-powered meta, which explains why I don't have a single Chalice of the Void in my deck.

ROUND 1: Sligh

Game 1: I open with a Bazaar and a Gemstone in hand, as well as a Golgari Grave-Troll and an Ashen Ghoul plus some irrelevant cards. Anyways, he was trying to raise me with his direct damage, but couldn't, and his Slith Firewalker got Darkblasted.

Game 2: I couldn't find a second Bazaar, much less dredgable cards, after his opening Wasteland on my Bazaar. He eventually shot me with Flame of Yamabushi (!) or something.

Game 3: I opened with a Putrid Imp, and he opened with a Lightning Bolt to my head (He was ignoring the Imp...). I then rode the Imp and Dredge all the way to a win.

Match Standing: 2-1
Tournament Standing: 1-0

ROUND 2: UW Landstill

Game 1: He knew what I was playing, so he didn't make the fatal mistake of casting Standstill on me. Still, he couldn't do anything about my creatures in the first game. I opened the game with Unmask, then dropped a Pithing Needle for Wasteland. Next turn, I Vamped during my upkeep for a Bazaar, then went crazy.

Game 2: Horrid grip of cards, and this was after mulling twice. I opened with a City Of Brass, passed the turn to him. He plopped down a Mishra's factory around turn four, animated it, then Tinkered it into Colossus. Since I had an empty graveyard at that point, and since he had two FOW's waiting for my two Chain of Vapors, I lost.

Game 3: I opened with a Lotus Petal, Putrid Imp, then plopped a Bazaar. He played Wasteland, I responded with Putrid to pitch a pair of Trolls into the 'yard and I Bazaared the nuts into Ichorid x2 and Ashen Ghoul and enough ammo. He tried to Pith the second Bazaar I plopped down, but it was irrelevant by then. Out of desperation, he was even using Stifle on my Ashen Ghoul activations. Wasn't enough to stop the barrage.

Match Standing: 2-1
Tournament Standing: 2-0

ROUND 3: Worse Than Fish

Pre-match note: my opponent's version of the deck runs Trigon Predator, which shuts out my entire board against him, barring Oxidize. He also runs Jitte.

Game 1: I open with a Pithing Needle for Wasteland. He tries to bring down creatures, but his Mongrel wasn't strong enough to overcome an Ashen Ghoul and an Ichorid attacking every turn.

Game 2: He managed to get Jitte going with a Spiketail Hatchling before I could get enough creatures in the graveyard.

Game 3: I had a mana-stable hand with Brainstorm. All I ever found with Brainstorm was more mana. Yuck.

Match Standing: 1-2
Tournament Standing: 2-1

ROUND 4: Oath Of Druids

This was my teammate, who was going 3-0. he generously scooped to me.

Tournament Standing: 3-1

ROUND 5: Threshold

Game 1: I managed to race him because he never hit threshold by the time I had Bazaar and Putrid Imp combining to dredge up a storm. I won in around five turns with an Ichorid and an Ashen Ghoul. He tried to Stifle my Bazaar activations a couple of times.

Game 2: He hit threshold by turn 2 (!). I didn't even find a single Leyline, plus he Pithed my Bazaar into uselessness.

Game 3: Same thing happened, except this time, he cast Worship while my back was to the wall. I had no outs by then, as I had to kill him AND kill his creatures. Not happening.

ROUND 6: Oath Of Druids

Game 1: I Unmasked him, then I laid down a Bazaar. I took out his Intuition. On his turn, he played a land and a Mox, go. On my turn, I Therapied him and he cast AK in response. Since I saw his hand, I asked him to drop his Brainstorm. When I started dredging, he couldn't find an Oath OR an Orchard at all. I won in six turns. I took my time since I was worried about maindeck Tormod's, and I was sure I can race Akroma in the event she shows up.

Game 2: He laid down a first-turn Oath. I laid down a Pithing Needle for Wasteland, and a Lotus Petal. He laid down a Wasteland, go. I played a Bazaar. He then cast AK. End of his turn, I used Chain of Vapor on Oath. He used Force Of Will, which was precisely what I wanted him to do. I then activated Bazaar, dropped a Troll and a Stinkweed, then cast Brainstorm and went wild with dredge. My turn, I brought in an Ashen Ghoul, and dredged up a Darkblast just in case he'd topdeck an Orchard. I then attacked, then sacced Ghoul to Therapy, naming Counterspell. Lucky hit. I passed the turn to him, and he topdecked a fetchland. From then on, I was just dredging carefully (Was watching out for Tormod's.), hitting him with a pair of Ashen Ghouls and a solitary Ichorid.

Match Standing: 2-0
Tournament Standing: 4-2

After 6 rounds in a 39-player field, I came in at exactly eighth.

TOP 8: Meloku Gifts

Game 1: My opponent didn't have much, but I couldn't capitalize because I was very unlucky with my Bazaar activations. I even got to Strip Mine his sole Island during the first turn, which really slowed him down. Sadly, I was hardly finding anything to dredge. By the time I had a regular dredge engine going, he already had lots of mana, which resulted into him casting Demonic Tutor for Meloku, then casting Meloku. Meloku's tokens were handily keeping my Ichorids and Ghouls in check, and by the endgame, I had one card in library. He then cast Yawgmoth's Will, replayed an Island, then cast Ancestral Recall on me with one card in my library. He dodged his own Mana Crypt an astounding FOUR TIMES. That's precisely how he survived this game with 4 life...

Game 2: He mulled to five, as his first hand had Colossus and Recoup but no Brainstorm, then on his second, he had Colossus AND Simic Sky-Swallower. I swarmed him with Bazaar and Needle on Tormod's (Which I didn't see.). He managed to plop Meloku down, but I bounced him EOT then Therapied him away the next, which meant he had few lands in play, and few outs.

Game 3: He opened with a good 7-card hand, but I opened with a pair of Leylines. He plopped a land and a Mox, go. I plopped down a land, Ancestral Recall. He begrudgingly let it through, and it's as if I never even opened with Leylines. I then used Unmask to remove a card from him, which I believe was Demonic Tutor. He had major play errors, as when he used BS later, he didn't use a fetchland to take out Colossus, which he was bound to draw. Nonetheless, he cast Shackles on his turn, and I froze for a moment. On my turn, I cast Imperial Seal, and I got a Null Rod. I was almost 100% sure he wouldn't have a Force Of Will because I recalled his hand had Y. Will, Echoing Truth, a land, and Colossus last time I checked prior to the Brainstorm. So anyways, I played Bazaar, then passed the turn to him. On his turn, he just held steady. I think he drew Colossus again by this point. EOT, I activated Bazaar. Drew the first card, dredged the second draw. My turn, I then brought Ichorid into play. I was waiting for him to do anything at all. He didn't. So I drew a card, then sacced Ichorid to Cabal Therapy, naming Echoing Truth, THEN brought down Null Rod.

At this point, he was completely helpless.

Match Standing: 2-1

TOP FOUR: Food Chain Goblins

Game One: I opened with a Bazaar, a Lotus Petal and a Black Lotus, then hardcast Unmask because of the Petal and Lotus. I took out his Lackey. His turn, he played Lotus Petal and a land, cast Recruiter. I activated Bazaar EOT, pitching two Ichorids and a Grave Troll. My upkeep, I activated 'Zaar, then dredged away and brought in the two Ichorids. I used my draw step to dredge back the Troll to my hand. He didn't block my attack. I used the first therapy to take out his Sharpshooter. I used the second one (Both flashbacks, of course.) to take out the Food Chain I saw from his hand. His turn, he couldn't do much else than say done, as he topdecked a Ringleader with his recruiter. I then won after two more of my turns, with Ichorid x 3.

Game Two: Horrid hand. He managed to cast Blood Moon by turn 2, but what really killed me was that I didn't have a Bazaar or a dredgable card, and only Putrid Imp to help me out. His recruiter set me up for four Goblin Piledrivers. That being said, I absolutely died.

Game Three: After mulling, I thought I had a decent, mana-stable hand with a Brainstorm. It turned out that I should've mulled again, because that hand had little more than Mana, Balance (Which wasn't enough to save me since he would always have two lands as I had two.), and THREE Chain of Vapors. I had no chance to win that game.

Match Standing: 1-2

That ended my bid for the top spot, but as you can see, had I just taken a chance and mulled away, I just might have done better.

Now, here's what I'm considering, given the conditions:

Can I put in 4 Gambles for the following: 1 Chain Of Vapor, 1 Golgari Thug, 1 Careful Study, 1 Underground Sea? Note that I still have 1 Chain in the maindeck after doing this. Whaddya think? Due to the non-existence of Chalice, I can have Brainstorms AND Gambles. Think it's plausible?

[XIII]

I finished 4th with the following list at the French vintage championship 2weeks ago.

4th - Florian Faucheux    Menhir Team

MainDeck   
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Golgari Thug
3 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Hermit Druid
1 Darksteel Colossus

1 Wonder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Darkblast
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 City of Brass
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
---------   
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
4 Null Rod
3 Oxidize
---------

I expected a very controllish metagame.
I played against Merchant.deck 3 times (2-0, 1-1 and 0-2 in semi finale and an ID), a madness (2-0), a stacks (2-0).

Some of the cards can be discussed (Druid, Nether) but the core of the deck remains strong.
Playing both druid and BoB allows to lessen the effect of needle.
Nethers keep preassure even without mana or black creatures in the graveyard.
Golgary Thug can be played more often that imp, and allow to recurse the druid.
12 disrupt seems to be the right number.
I didn't played Crop Rotation, because it too often gets countered, causing to lose the game.

I often sideboarded out CoTV or Leyline depending of the opposing deck.
Null Rod was never sided in.