[Deck] Grim Long - 3 Top8s at SCG Rochester

[rureddy31]

Against Gifts, isn't Duress just better? You bring in Chains and Recalls against Stax? And I assume just chains, and maybe 1 recall vs. fish?

[Smmenen]

Against Stax:

You bring in your whole sb except for Xantid Swarm.

I have no idea, honestly, what to take out most of the time.  I wing it aside from the Duress, Regrowth, and Swarm. 

As for Gifts, it depends what they are going to sb in. 

[rureddy31]

Thanks for your help. I have to say, you are quite an amazing magic player. I hope I get a chance to play you at the next SCG Rochester/Syracuse. I look forward to a huge challenge.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

hi I'm Pete, i played you in round 4 on Saturday while we were both in the amazingly awkward 1-0-2 bracket, and then again sunday in round 1.  Although i beat you on Saturday, that was due to mistakes that you made based on what you thought i was playing that I was just able to capitalize on. However on sunday you went off on me through 2 first turn duresses and a third later after you imperial sealed.  So the question thats burning me up is if 3 duresses wont do it, and Paul mastriano swore to me that arcane lab, unless it was preceded by tinker for colossus or a similar play, is a mere inconvenience, then what is the answer to this deck?  Despite the skill taken to pilot this deck successfully through 7+ rounds, more than a few people seem to have found the formula. You said yourself later in the evening that even if grim tutor was restricted you feel like you could play the deck successfully. 

By the way, playing you twice was a blast, and i hope to get the chance again

[Smmenen]

the pleasure was mine.  i was absolutely shocked to see that i was playing you again.  I dropped after I lost to you on day one and was very surprised to play you round one of day two.  I hope we can play again sometime.  It was a good time. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

So the question thats burning me up is if 3 duresses wont do it, and Paul mastriano swore to me that arcane lab, unless it was preceded by tinker for colossus or a similar play, is a mere inconvenience, then what is the answer to this deck?

ICBM Oath?  I've been beating combo (especially GrimLong) since forever, and having 4 Chalice, 2 Null Rod (or Arcane Lab), 2 Duress, 4 FoW, 4 Drain, and 3 strips main is quite a beating, especially since Chain of Vapor will usually be cut off by Chalice at 1.

[Smmenen]

hardly.

i beat icbm oath mad this weekend:

I won one game through 3 fows and Null Rod and another game through null Rod and Duress (on turn two with him on the play).  I thought that the slightest disruption beat Grim Long?  Evidently not. 

ICBM oath is simple post board too. 

[AJFirst]

You guys are kind of both making moot points here. I'm sure Ben's talking about Midwest GrimLong players, which are all in all pretty incompetent. And Smmenen is talking about beating ICBM Oath players without the last name "Carp" meaning they're automatically incompetent.

Take me for example. I play Slaver 90% of the time, and consider myself decent at it, although not good by any extent. In matches against ICBM Oath in tournement play against oponent's not named Carp, I'm something stupid like 5-1 in matches when Slaver is supposed to be ICBM Oath's favorite match-up. I've played Dan twice (yet to play Ben sadly), and got whooped both times. Did he topdeck like a champ? Maybe. Did he play obscenely tightly with a minimum amount of play mistakes? Absolutely.

The only Oath players even worth talking about in today's metagame (With today's Chalice Oath) are the Carp brothers. Same goes for GrimLong in the Midwest: it's just on a whole other level of incompetence. I fool around with the deck in my spare time, and standing behind Long players getting their asses handed too them makes me want to punch them in the face because 96% of the time it's their terrible play that causes them to lose.

Just my opinion.
-AJ

[Mr. Type 4]

fool around with the deck in my spare time, and standing behind Long players getting their asses handed too them makes me want to punch them in the face because 96% of the time it's their terrible play that causes them to lose.

Well, yeah, when you misplay you lose.  You only get two mistakes, the third = match loss, and occasionally, so does the second. 

Grim Long is really strange in that you need to be on top of your game to play it properly.  You really have to be focused, and you'll know it by feeling like you're on top of your game.  When you're having a good day you feel invinceable, and when push really comes to shove you can pull out games that you may have normally thought unwinnable.  Saturday I was on, and did well, Sunday I made a bunch of play mistakes in the early games and that affected the way I played for the rest of the day.  Steve went the opposite direction, he found the Grim Long mindset on Sunday. 

In any case, this deck is HARD to play right.  It occasionally spits out easy wins (on Saturday my first hand of the day was Pearl, Petal, Academy, Ritual, Duress, Bargain, Chain of Vapor), but it rarely gives you that luxury when you really need it.  To win a tournament, instead of just a few games, you must be able to convert the challenging games.  Most of the time you don't get great hands, but you do get hands that win if played perfectly, and if you're not ready to play them perfectly, you probably need to play something else. 

So is Rureddy31 Ryan? 

[Mr. Nightmare]

Grim Long is really strange in that you need to be on top of your game to play it properly.  You really have to be focused, and you'll know it by feeling like you're on top of your game.  When you're having a good day you feel invinceable, and when push really comes to shove you can pull out games that you may have normally thought unwinnable.

When I was playing this deck Sunday, I was my most difficult opponent.  I've never experienced a deck before where I could literally feel that I was slipping in gameplay.  As the day wore on, I could absolutely tell with this deck.  I lost focus, and because of it lost a top 8 slot.  It is an extremely strong deck, but equally risky to play in a long tournament, because you are the limiting factor.

[AJFirst]

Artifact Mana (11)
7 SoLoMox
3 CryptVaultPetal
1 LED

Lands (12)
1 Academy
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Underground Sea

I Win (8)
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Set-up (13)
4 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Grim Tutor
2 Intuition

Control (8)
2 Force of Will
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
4 Duress

Broken stuff (8)
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Regrowth

This is my old GrimLong list. It's like IT with more broken stuff. Infinit draw sevens with just a little control packed in. I like only two forces. They can't be Intuitioned for, but they're that good, and just two makes it so they're rarely clunky in hand lacking blue cards to pitch. The extra blue cards and Forces come in from the board, but the only real thing I've found in my testing (if it can be called that, I mostly just play around with it for fun because going broken is a blast from time to time) is that ESG is terrible. It has decent potential, but it's just inneficent, and the extra Cabal Rit and land would be better (I put in a land and a Force). What do you guys think? (Obviously you like them, or you wouldn't be playing them, but maybe an explanation for someone who doesn't play the deck competitively) Thanks.
-AJ

[Smmenen]

The assumption for anyone who posts in this thread is that this is a discussion for competitive play.  If you are playing Grim Long casually (god forbid), I don’t think that this is an appropriate place for that discussion.

[Dante]

You've just been Smemmen-slapped.

Or to rephase, "please don't spam my threads with decklists that aren't competitively tested"

[LordHomerCat]

fool around with the deck in my spare time, and standing behind Long players getting their asses handed too them makes me want to punch them in the face because 96% of the time it's their terrible play that causes them to lose.

Well, yeah, when you misplay you lose.  You only get two mistakes, the third = match loss, and occasionally, so does the second. 

Grim Long is really strange in that you need to be on top of your game to play it properly.  You really have to be focused, and you'll know it by feeling like you're on top of your game.  When you're having a good day you feel invinceable, and when push really comes to shove you can pull out games that you may have normally thought unwinnable.  Saturday I was on, and did well, Sunday I made a bunch of play mistakes in the early games and that affected the way I played for the rest of the day.  Steve went the opposite direction, he found the Grim Long mindset on Sunday. 

In any case, this deck is HARD to play right.  It occasionally spits out easy wins (on Saturday my first hand of the day was Pearl, Petal, Academy, Ritual, Duress, Bargain, Chain of Vapor), but it rarely gives you that luxury when you really need it.  To win a tournament, instead of just a few games, you must be able to convert the challenging games.  Most of the time you don't get great hands, but you do get hands that win if played perfectly, and if you're not ready to play them perfectly, you probably need to play something else. 

So is Rureddy31 Ryan? 

100% True.  On Saturday, I lost 2 matches (one in swiss, one in top8).  In the swiss I got blown out by Stax because I couldn't win turn 1 and he had very good openers.  Game 1 I still had a ton of outs and like 5 turns to draw them, and he played Chalice 1 on his last possible turn before I found a tutor.  Otherwise, I pretty much felt unstoppable, especially against Drain decks.  I feel like I played extremely tight, and very carefully, and won a number of very difficult games where I could easily have made one or two small misplays and not even realized why I'd lost.  Sunday, I was out of the zone, and quickly went 1-2.  You really really really have to feel focused and feel like you are on, or else you might as well stop playing, because this deck is so hard, but so rewarding if you make the right plays.  As soon as you lose that focus, your day is probably over.

[AJFirst]

I do play it to the best of my ability against top tier decks, I just would never take it to a tournement is what I meant by 'not competitively'. Thanks for sidestepping my honest question though.
-AJ

[rureddy31]

fool around with the deck in my spare time, and standing behind Long players getting their asses handed too them makes me want to punch them in the face because 96% of the time it's their terrible play that causes them to lose.

Well, yeah, when you misplay you lose.  You only get two mistakes, the third = match loss, and occasionally, so does the second. 

Grim Long is really strange in that you need to be on top of your game to play it properly.  You really have to be focused, and you'll know it by feeling like you're on top of your game.  When you're having a good day you feel invinceable, and when push really comes to shove you can pull out games that you may have normally thought unwinnable.  Saturday I was on, and did well, Sunday I made a bunch of play mistakes in the early games and that affected the way I played for the rest of the day.  Steve went the opposite direction, he found the Grim Long mindset on Sunday. 

In any case, this deck is HARD to play right.  It occasionally spits out easy wins (on Saturday my first hand of the day was Pearl, Petal, Academy, Ritual, Duress, Bargain, Chain of Vapor), but it rarely gives you that luxury when you really need it.  To win a tournament, instead of just a few games, you must be able to convert the challenging games.  Most of the time you don't get great hands, but you do get hands that win if played perfectly, and if you're not ready to play them perfectly, you probably need to play something else. 

So is Rureddy31 Ryan? 

Yea, I'm Ryan. I played CS both days. Day 2 I ran 3 MD Duresses to try and other drain decks game 1. I only lost one game 1 I think...

[Smmenen]

I do play it to the best of my ability against top tier decks, I just would never take it to a tournement is what I meant by 'not competitively'. Thanks for sidestepping my honest question though.
-AJ

What is your honest question?

[nataz]

the only real thing I've found in my testing (if it can be called that, I mostly just play around with it for fun because going broken is a blast from time to time) is that ESG is terrible. It has decent potential, but it's just inneficent, and the extra Cabal Rit and land would be better (I put in a land and a Force). What do you guys think? (Obviously you like them, or you wouldn't be playing them, but maybe an explanation for someone who doesn't play the deck competitively) Thanks.
-AJ

I'd assume the stax match-up is made infiny easier w/ a free non sphere-able/wasteable mana source

[AJFirst]

What is your honest question?

What you thought about ESG. Thanks Nataz for answering. I'd still like to here your thoughts, Stephen, but to Nataz, isn't the plan against Stax to either go off turns 1/2 (if unimpeded), or sit back, ramp land, set up the win slightly, then Rebuild or Hyrkal's and win? That's how I've usually played that match-up, and four mana is more than you need, and hitting that shouldn't be too hard as long as you're keeping too many spheres (resistance or trini) and Chalices off the table with Force, then popping and winning is seemingly the usual game plan. Am I right in saying this, or is that a terrible idea and I'm the only one doing that?
-AJ

[arcanis2000]

I must admit, that when It comes to competitve vintage play I am a noob.  But I have been trying to better myself.  I am constantly on the web either here or at SCG.  I am friends with tin_mox, for those of you who know him, he is really the reason that I have taken off in this format.  From what I have seen and my own personal oppoinion Grim long is a great deck.  It can win against anything, but if you let your bad plays get to you, and can't concentrate enough to play the deck.  Like you guys have been saying, only the player loses the game not the deck.  I would one day like to play in a vintage tourny, preferably SCG P9 one day, and I would like to try this deck out.  Also, why can't Star City have P9 tournys in Ohio.  I know about a lot of vintage players that live in ohio.  Ohh well now I am rambling, thanks for your time.

~ Mr. 2000~

Hi, welcome to TMD! Our forum rules are here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18027.0

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-Jacob

[Dominik]

I actually love the stax matchup with this deck, especially post-board. I just raped stax on MWS with two turn one wins in a row (he even got a mainphase each game! ). Unless the game lasts for more than 2-3 turns, they can't really do too much against you. Since they don't run counters, you can just fool around with draw sevens (something that I'd be cautious of against decks that run FoW- unless I already attacked with swarm). Running 4x Chain and 4x FoW in the board is really amazing, I had a FoW the second game against my stax opponent just in case he put down a lock component that would hurt me.

What a lot of people who have picked up Grim Long have complained about is the fact that they have to do "Mental Jumping-Jacks" for a few hours straight during the course of a tournament. I have found that this challenge is rather enjoyable, because, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, your biggest opponent with Grim Long is yourself. You really have to plan everything out, and trust yourself with this deck, as well as the knowledge you have of your opponent. This deck is truly a beast when piloted by the right person, and I would rate Grim Long as the best deck in the current vintage environment.

[rureddy31]

I agree with your second paragraph, not with your first one though. While you may bring a bunch of cards against stax, the matchup is quite hard to beat on the draw. Stax always has a first turn 2, 3 or 4 drop. Although, in retrospect, there are really only 4 cards you need to fear, and chances are they aren't running all 4. Those cards are:
Null Rod
Chalice of the Void
Sphere of Resistance / Trinisphere
Into the Eye of Chaos

All those cards create quite a headache, and make it difficult to deal with once they resolve, even with bounce. As a Grim Long player, I would much rather play against a deck with 4x FoW and 4x Drain, then with 4x Sphere, 4x Chalice, 2x Null Rod, 2x Into the Eye and 1x Trinisphere.

[Dominik]

I agree with your second paragraph, not with your first one though. While you may bring a bunch of cards against stax, the matchup is quite hard to beat on the draw. Stax always has a first turn 2, 3 or 4 drop. Although, in retrospect, there are really only 4 cards you need to fear, and chances are they aren't running all 4. Those cards are:
Null Rod
Chalice of the Void
Sphere of Resistance / Trinisphere
Into the Eye of Chaos

All those cards create quite a headache, and make it difficult to deal with once they resolve, even with bounce. As a Grim Long player, I would much rather play against a deck with 4x FoW and 4x Drain, then with 4x Sphere, 4x Chalice, 2x Null Rod, 2x Into the Eye and 1x Trinisphere.

Yes, that is true, this deck has an amazing drain matchup as well. Between all the protection Grim Long brings in post board, it is hard for them to actually get a chance to use their control on you. However, with the stax matchup, I was just defending the fact that it is certainly winnable, as long as you know how to combat it properly. You have the surprise factor against them, and they have a lot of possible plans they can attempt to carry out, only a few of which would be effective against you (usually only the cards you listed in your post).

[Smmenen]

I haven't really heard much from some of the more traditional control players.

What is everyone thinking?  What is the general opinion on this deck, esp. the list i ran at rochester? 

Have people been testing it?  What stumbling blocks have you encountered?  What interesting plays or decisions have you faced?

[goobafish]

Hey,
I rarely pipe in on TMD threads, figured I might as well post.
I have tested Grim Long and I like it, but there are a few issues that make me less inclined to play it. First off the 5 color mana base. Not the fact that it is easily disruptible but the fact that it is a pain in the late game. I find that I really really miss fetches especially their synergy w/ brainstorms. Not only that, but the threshold they provide with cabal rituals. Another issue I have encountered with the deck is the vulnerability to discard, more specifically Duress and secondly Hymn. Duress often takes the key card that you need to combo off and forces you to move into the late game state that you really don't want to be in with GrimLong.

On the issue of the 5c mana base, how necesary is it to play all 5 colors? If you needed to cut one of the colors of the 4, which would it be? They obviously all have upsides and downsides, and I assume it would be between Red and Green. There is just so much of an advantage to be running Brainstorms w/ fetches that I would never consider a 5 color mana base.

[Smmenen]

The honest truth is that the only reason to run the mana base I run is Wheel of Fortune.   You can run a three color mana base: UBg off fetchlands and duals.  But I have a hard on for Wheel.  I don't think you get as much stability as some people think with duals since you can't really run basic lands - Island or Swamp woudl be horrible to hang your hat on.  However, you do get the synergies you spoke of.  If you are comfortable with it, go for it.

But I think that people don't appreciate how good:

3 Gemstone
4 City
1 Orchard
1 Academy
2 Seas

can be.

[rureddy31]

Are Elvish Spirit Guides ABSOLUTELY necessary?

[rureddy31]

Also, in testing, I absolutely LOVE Burning Wish. ATM, I have cut Regrowth to make room for it, pushing Regrowth to the board, although I could conceivably move 1 Duress to the board instead of Regrowth.

[Smmenen]

Kevin Cron runs 4 Cabal Ritual and no ESG.  So, no, they aren't *absolutely* necesary.  I, otoh, love ESG.

ESG and Casbal Ritual both have different functions. 

ESG is more of a mox than Cabal Rit is.  ESG's primary role is: turn one draw7 with mox, land, etc. It can also help power out other early turn one plays. 

Ritual cannot serve that function because it requires a black mana source.

Cabal Ritual is great in the mid to late game as it is fantastic before will and after will and after draw7s.

ESGs are better early and cabal ritual is better later.  

[Imsomniac101]

Do you ever keep a hand with just one business spell? I dunno. This came up a lot when I used to play the deck. Like for example, hand of accelerants plus Brainstorm/Grim Tutor. I'm afraid of mulliganing cuz MWS really loves to screw me over (however lame that may sound).